Deity BM: Viable in 1vs1 or small scale pvp?

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

Not sure if this topic has been covered before, but even if it hasn't, recent updates to PWI make it worth reopening this discussion.

With the primal drake's bash, bms now have multiple 'really scary' skills that require extremely high genie energy to counter.

1) heavens flame --- counters are expel, absolute domain, or belief
2) primal drake's bash --- counters same as above

I had a long discussion with a friend about the possibility of a deity bm. My theory is that, while a deity bm will be forced to use his genie much faster, he'll also force the enemy to use his/her genie very quickly as well.

Points in favor of a deity build:

-they can wear defense lvl weapon until they get in range of enemy, then switch to r9rr (almost as tanky as a jades bm who always keeps r9rr weapon in)
-fewer hits required to kill enemy = less chance of purify proc
-significantly easier charm-bypassing ability, such that a bm can bypass with sometimes just a crit or a zerk, not to mention zerk crits (most bms only bypass with a zerk crit on a hard hitting skill)
-buff apoths (spirit of defense) are readily available, mitiagating the deity squishiness
-bms have a multitude of ways to close ground with ranged enemy dds (speed skills, leaps, tele immobilizes) and a number of ways to disable from range (79 seal, weapon disable, pole stun)

Obviously the downsides to a deity build remain the same. Because a bm has to run into groups of enemies, this build is not really viable for a support bm in mass pvp.

However, many of the bms I know only infrequently engage in mass pvp like TW or greater than 3vs3 pvp.

My theory is that a bm who wishes to shard his r9rr set with deities could keep a backup set of g16 armor and shard it with jades---yes I'm aware that you'd have to be extremely rich to do this. Nonetheless, a bm does have this option, so that, for mass pvp where a more debuff/support role is required, he doesn't need to run into enemies with no defense lvls.

Taken all together, a deity bm should be able to very quickly scare an enemy into using their genie due to the very large dmg the bm does. Because of this, the enemy will be highly vulnerable to either roar + hf or drakes bash + tangling mire and fast-skill-spam. If the enemy uses their genie for anything other than hf or drake's bash, they'll have a difficult time avoiding the hf or drake's bash. An ordinary bm's dmg isn't high enough to scare enemy into using their genie for anything except drakes bash or hf, but this shouldn't be true for a deity bm, who always threatens to bypass your charm much easier than a jades bm can. And finally, a deity bm can actually kill other heavy armors (and can be killed in turn) rather than the endless stalemate which characterizes most endgame jades vs jades heavy armor fights. If you aren't too fussy about dying now and then, having the ability to actually kill could be seen as better than always drawing.

So what do you think. Deity bm---a viable build in small scale, modern pvp? Leave your thoughts below.

TheDan - Sanctuary

It's viable because survivability becomes less important in small group situations, especially 1v1s because then it's based off class and skill, but most people won't consider it because it hurts so much in TW NW and mass group PK that people end up not doing it. A lot of times I'll go aggressively on genie set up for smaller groups, pure STR genie instead of my mage/vit genie for big group PvP.

Obviously for BM, they're still going to be less useful than if a caster / archer did it because we always get the distance disadvantage that long archers characters can get away with by kiting.

Most BMs these days are full STR but full JOSD, I'm sure you could get away with full Diety but full vit if you wanted to avoid the shard cost of JOSD.

As far as the actual usefulness of the shards goes, if a proper gank is set up between a BM + DD the shards won't matter, drake bash has made it so that just about anyone will die with a drake bash + DD combo, and when they have AD / expel / immunities they'd break out of it either. The only way I see it maybe making a huge difference is if the casters you're partnered up with are all JOSD instead of diety in which case the BMs need to compensate slightly more for the lesser DD.

The way I see it, if the gank was set up properly, the opponent would die regardless of sharding, it just comes down to timing and individual situations being properly executed. If the gank was set up poorly, or if the opponent used expel or above skill the evade, same result, etc.

On my server small group PK doesnt exist anymore, all the big PKers joined 1 faction and all the PvE TWers are in separate factions, so it's useless on mine.

XX_Raider_Xx - Sanctuary

As a relatively active and out spoken advocate of poleblades and spears I think that a full deity BM with many NW gears high refines (high hp) decent tank-ability would be highly underrated until their opponent gets 1 shot

I should clarify that spear shouldnt be the only build up

I actually like the idea of having

R999 axes with GoF 50-65 atk levels
Warsoul Spear with Darken 50-65 atk levels
R8r poleblade with battle formation or purge/purge+

with 150+ attack levels with a "warsoul spear" (it has "darken" - chance to stun/seal) with a decent refine with new Primal "farstrike" (that 100% stuns if over 10 meters) that hits any target at 20 meters is going to think they got hit by a archer or wizard or psychic or other op class

toons that have 100+ defense levels might shrug it off at first but if they are stunned and the bm is worth anything they will blade hurl and disarm then reckless rush after sutra or pangu or IG and proceed to beat the **** out of the target with chance to stun/ seal proc at 15-18%

yes not very tanky as a JoSD bm but hell if you gonna get 1-shot its gonna happen.

roll with it

love the idea myself and thinking i might go this way

http://pwcalc.com/eabd3ae1802f094f

175 atk levels
64 def levels
good magic/physical defense (with primal passives)
decent damage
range 20 meters (blade hurl, farstrike)
stun/seal chance
good hp
1.05 aps
very nice crit rate (with primal 6%)

all in all expensive yes but ehh i seem to have more fun using my Galaxy Shocker G16 in nw/tw
so might as well have fun

furthermore if you replace the spear with R999 axes imagine a HF that no one walks away from b:chuckle

Zarkin_Baxil - Raging Tide

While the upgraded farstrike hits pretty hard the effect is not a stun, it's immobilize just like Reckless Rush. It's good to catch someone who hasn't anti stunned but is trying to holy path away, but I find it limited in its use. There is a bm on RT that was Deity and then went Jades and felt Jades were better for him. I still think Jades are the way to go for bm but I'm not saying Deity is worthless either.

OJoseRizaLo - Raging Tide

Well i have been waiting for someone to make this thread......


Diety over josd that is what i think best for bm.. Well the idea of sharding diety depends on the playing style of the BM.. Im +11 vit shard bm i have 25.4k base hp 49.5k pdef and 19.8k mag def at this time with with primal passive skill and spirits vit shard is nothing but a higher grade citrine so that means its all about josd or diety...

Ok here is my thoughts of having josd

1 yes you are in God mode no one can kill you 1v1 and hard to kill you in mass pvp... Guess what? your enemies are clerics base on my experience.. You will get sog sleep and etc while they pick on your team.. Who will bother wasting time killing a jade BM? In that case you arent supporting your team coz yo just give the attention to your teamate who dies easier and once they kill your team boom 5 people on your ***! Where is your jades?

My thoughts on diety...

1, with diety shard people think you are squishy and will try to get your first ( everyones reaction when they saw diety shard toon... Kill him he is squishy!) hell no....!!! Ofc if 5 people hits you there is no way you can be tanky.. As what i said its all about your playing style... Get the attention,let your oppenents hit you ! You know why? If your opponent tries to kill you first, its the time to show how great you are ..... Go play defense! Having the attention on you is one of the best support you can do to save your team... While you are getting hit your DDs are hitting them at the same time.. And in that case your DDs will be the one supporting you... Not like jades people will try to kill your DDs first and you are gonna get CCd till your team dies....and the fun part being diety is .. If they ignore you and still go for your team.... Boom time to zc them with 30-60ks

So for me diety is best for BM

XX_Raider_Xx - Sanctuary

*Bump*

SpearSpark - Heavens Tear

theres only about 6 to 7 full jades bm on my server.

zero fully diety bms

about a dozen of full vit stone bm, im one of the full vit stone bm.

deity and jades are same price on my server both at 190 milish each, vit stone is 70 mil each

tbh at todays gear and cards, equally geared if you are ganked by 2 or more, theres no other

option but run away. fully buffed i have been hit 40 to 55k a few times by ppl with 5S to 6S

cards

i believe bm is still best to shard jades,deity might be good at 1 vs 1 situation, but still you

need to pray that you dont get hit by a crit.

and i agree with dan, genie skills i use most often are str based, can always use genie to play

in a more aggressive style

Sel_Darkmore - Dreamweaver

QQ i will stay out of this discussion cause im the legendary most fail +7/+8 Immac's BM on serverb:cry

But i will leave a thought: Deity BM Offensivly played with better kill power, But lucky to live thru mass pvp situations long enough after crowd stun vs the players of today. I mean after the reawaken theres waaay too much magic going around. Casters walking with 700=1000 magic. 1vs1 it could be pretty depending on playstyle/player etc. Im already seeing ppl sharding Mag def lately.

I myself prolly never reach that kinda of level of sharding but if could i think i would do a lil mix of both. Diety boost to help assist in the common range of bm's offence, JSod to assist a lil in the survialbility, But having the proper stats from engravings and cards would also have to play the factor in this sorta choice for me. I seen some full Vit Bms tank greatly since they do have the bigger hp pool but like someone mention in most cases a simple 1v1 can go on to a 20 minute event. Again tho the mass pvp area of it will be a pain to me if full Diety.

K that was more then a thought b:surrender

Atropah - Sanctuary

Deity is a valid 1v1 build since we've come a long way defensively. More people have highly refined gear nowadays, we have better ornaments (NW neck, r9t3 belt), many of us have well refined magic rings on hotkey swap, and then the primal passives. In a 1v1 situation I think we're surviving longer against casters than we have ever before. We also have updated leaps for some damage evasion while closing the distance, and Reel In and Reckless Rush to close the distance. The problem is they have purify proc + holy path so they're surviving against us longer than ever before, also, and they still have a better chance of charm bipassing us with a chained crit or two. Deity stones are a nice way to even the playing field and letting zerk axes and a lucky hit win your fights for you. Most of pvp in PWI is winning one fight with a lucky zerk crit then bragging about it for 6 months.

On the other hand, in mass pvp situations we need defenses. Our marrows are great 1v1 but can both hurt and help in group pvp and they don't completely cover our ***** defensively which is why def levels/vit/hp is nice. Our roll in mass pvp is crowd control and supplement damage. Sure you might get the lucky nuke in pvp but just as often you'll be killed trying to get into aoe range. So while I think deity stones are a perfectly fine idea for 1v1/pve as long as your well refined, in group pvp its basically the equivalent of going unsharded. Or being forced to be a different roll other than what people expect from a bm. Basically a melee dd.

One last thought, an endgame bm will have about 130 attack levels and 75 def levels. Adding 48 more attack levels is ~18% increase in dd while adding 48 more def levels is about a 25% increase in defense simply because you start with more attack levels already than def levels. If a JoSD BM fights a Deity BM the JoSD BM has the advantage of 25% more def against the deity's 18% more offense.

Madebyvisa - Raging Tide

well i believ i was the first and perhaps only bm that actually went full deity.. and true enugh i did swap em back to josd for some time.. mainly to catch my passives and new skills and get some more refines etc.. Now that i have em all i actually am going back to deity again..

atm i have helm and plate on josds rest on deity.. this works pretty decent too but i will swap the remaining 8 josd to deity anyway...

yes josd is far superior in mass pvp and tw and etc ... that is if ur playing ur support role...

then on the other hand tw's also include lots of squishy meat too ... last tw i did with my deity setups even blade hurl alone hitted some of the current top faction of our server players 59k+ without any debuffs nor purge ..
so basically if u can find and identify those squishies in there you can still be effective even in tw circumstances with deity..

and yes u do get significantly squishier per say selfbuffed purged ... but while being buffed .. the dmg difference becomes totally irrelevant... literally no difference since they still will hit u for no more than 3k's when youre buffed.

as far as 1v1 goes .. well i've watched back on my own videos and i feel that being deity even before passives was far superior to josd in 1v1... Now even more so..

Pretty much dont feel like posting as to why and pros and cons i think aeliah nailed most of it..

my opinion is clearly this then ... 1v1 deity benefits u miles more than josd.. no1 can hit u much selfbuffed even with deity and if they can u pack a ton of cc / disables to prevent it..

mass pk / tw wise.. idk depends on ur play style.. probably josd is btr there still imo but i find ways to enjoy tw even with deity so idm that so much.

so basically if ur willing to chance ur play style pretty much completely out oif the support role... deity is your choice .. if u want to stay as support stick with josd.

my channel is full of pvp vids with josd and with deity.. not that specified tho where is what shards cause i swapped em alot .. but if you pay attention to it .. you'll notice the diff.

Socqar - Lost City

Madebyvisa - Raging Tide wrote: »

well i believ i was the first and perhaps only bm that actually went full deity.. and true enugh i did swap em back to josd for some time.. mainly to catch my passives and new skills and get some more refines etc.. Now that i have em all i actually am going back to deity again..

atm i have helm and plate on josds rest on deity.. this works pretty decent too but i will swap the remaining 8 josd to deity anyway...

yes josd is far superior in mass pvp and tw and etc ... that is if ur playing ur support role...

then on the other hand tw's also include lots of squishy meat too ... last tw i did with my deity setups even blade hurl alone hitted some of the current top faction of our server players 59k+ without any debuffs nor purge ..
so basically if u can find and identify those squishies in there you can still be effective even in tw circumstances with deity..

and yes u do get significantly squishier per say selfbuffed purged ... but while being buffed .. the dmg difference becomes totally irrelevant... literally no difference since they still will hit u for no more than 3k's when youre buffed.

as far as 1v1 goes .. well i've watched back on my own videos and i feel that being deity even before passives was far superior to josd in 1v1... Now even more so..

Pretty much dont feel like posting as to why and pros and cons i think aeliah nailed most of it..

my opinion is clearly this then ... 1v1 deity benefits u miles more than josd.. no1 can hit u much selfbuffed even with deity and if they can u pack a ton of cc / disables to prevent it..

mass pk / tw wise.. idk depends on ur play style.. probably josd is btr there still imo but i find ways to enjoy tw even with deity so idm that so much.

so basically if ur willing to chance ur play style pretty much completely out oif the support role... deity is your choice .. if u want to stay as support stick with josd.

my channel is full of pvp vids with josd and with deity.. not that specified tho where is what shards cause i swapped em alot .. but if you pay attention to it .. you'll notice the diff.

You made me curious... what's the cost to switch fom deity to josd or vice-versa using those crystals in CS? Never found the exact amount it would cost…

Madebyvisa - Raging Tide

Socqar - Lost City wrote: »

You made me curious... what's the cost to switch fom deity to josd or vice-versa using those crystals in CS? Never found the exact amount it would cost…

3-12 gold and 9 mil per gem. depending on your luck with the crystal packs.

Socqar - Lost City

Madebyvisa - Raging Tide wrote: »

3-12 gold and 9 mil per gem. depending on your luck with the crystal packs.

That's not by any chance cheap, but seems more than decent price ... 30M per shard is like 1/10 what a new one could cost so...

Ty for answering ^^

TheDan - Sanctuary

If you can already one shot squishies in TW for 30k+ what's the point of sharding Diety? Diety doesn't serve much purpose in TW because full buffed R999 end game characters will barely take any damage anyway, and to get close enough to be in range of an entire squad of R999 diety casters you'd die instantly before you could even get into melee range. The people you already one shot won't make a difference, and the people who it might make a difference to would now have an easier time killing you first..

To me to give up 23% defense for 18% offense doesn't add up, especially when a BM is a melee class to be regularly ganked in crowds.. Now factor in spirit on top of the differences and Deity Wizards and Archers are hitting 30-40% more on you from 30-40 meters away including debuffs such as undine and purge.

I'm full +12 JOSD atm and using the r8r spear w/ 23 def levels on it I still take a lot of damage from casters and archers that instant purge me. The number 1 reason why BMs die is when they get purged, anyone can tank like a boss full buffed, but when you factor in the defense losses to self buffed stats it's basically suicide.

Basically all Deities do is make yourself vulernable to ganks in group PvP, especially from other BMs.. All it takes is 1 counter drake bash gank and it's lights out. Everyone knows in TWs the faction that wins a faction push is the faction with the better front line BMs to initiate and crowd control. When your tanks are vulnerable the rest of the faction is vulnerable.

Even is small group PvP it's questionable to go Diety... Most BMs are already full STR mixed with Jades, to go full STR full Diety is like going full JOSD full vit, both very unbalanced in their usefulness. If you're a BM that does both small group PK and large group TW the balance is already there.... full STR and JOSD. Now if you don't do TW but you PK then maybe Diety is good, but if you're a BM that does both I don't see how Diety is worth it in TW which matters more than PK to me IMO.

Madebyvisa - Raging Tide

the point of 1 shotting squishies is that u can do it with base dmg alone on deitys and on josd you cant...

as far as a sqd of deity casters hitting you.. my server has one caster with i think 2 deity shards .. sno that wont be a problem for a long time....

and yeah clerics dont matter in tw.. thats the squishies u can pick off easily ...

debufss and and what not u still tank fine buffed like i said before...

purged its all the same if u have deity or +10lvl def shards lol.. ur stilla gonna drop flat in no seconds flat...

and sure mite make me vulnerable maybe idk.. drake bash gank in tw ... well no matter how u look at it .. ur gonna allways draw fire on you in tw .. and yes i was josd with def axe and malleys and what not ... ran into to the same thing as i do now... guess what ... in the end u die anyway..

idk how many ppl target u as a bm in ur tw's but my log has 5-12 dd's on me everytime i move a feet closer than other dd's in my sqd... and 5-12.. again doesnt matter what you have ur still dead when immunities wear off...

as a full str josd .. yeah nothing below 220 dex works for me at least ... i miss on even casters with lower than that.. and that means if u lvl alot of 105's ur basically 750 str ,...
whic again in these days does absolutely nothing on any1...

my dmg went to a place i like ... i tank just as fine as with josd... i dont see any reason not to...

TheDan - Sanctuary

My viewpoints are given based off enemies having equal or better gear... Squishies are non-factors regardless of what shards you have. But I'm talking if you're facing equal geared r999 +12 full NW gear and diety/josd opponents and you go into even 2-3 of them, it's like being an arcane melee. You'd get silenced and killed before you can even attack... no joke. You have to be able to at least survive the initiation or the attack damage is worthless.

Maybe Diety shards work well against non-factor opponents or mid-gear opponents but imagine going into an 80v80 TW where 80% of the members are r999 +10 minimum. That's where my server is at right now, and to be anything less than 100 def level is basically a 2-3 shot.

But yeah, I'll agree with you if you're talking about mediocre to average players PvPing.. they just don't play a factor in my PvP perspective is all I'm trying to say.

Our server right now has 3 big power house TW factions and each of them have moved up and down the latter from 1st strongest to 3rd within the matter of 1 TW season, and the members individual gear is what offsets the TW performances. The biggest challenge is adapting to your enemy. For example against the #2 strongest faction I'm extremely tanky because all their DD is casters, but against the #3 strongest faction I'm extremely squishy because all they have are R999 archers that instantly purge you with magic marrow up it's over quick. Now maybe against the #4 strongest faction they're heavy on melee so you can get away with Diety sharding.. but speaking based off of gear... Jades are only going to make sense in the long run when everyone else catches up in gear.

Madebyvisa - Raging Tide

well tw here is about same tbh but theres still squishies there allways... and yeah 2-3 ppl can be problematic ... but the the point i was making is ur damn lucky if u only get 2-3... when i tw its constant 5-12 ... and in that situation doesnt matter a thing what shards u roll cause ull die after immunity allways...

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

Deity BM works if your server has zero competent geared archers.

Also isn't the whole point of nonfactors that you don't consider them when making decisions? Why build based on people whom you can kill by sending your own 2nd class gear squads after them?

Madebyvisa - Raging Tide

ur thinking too far with the squishy comment .. anything that aind josd sharded becomes squishy as my enemy when im deity ... and archers arent even an issue till purge comes to play ... but yeah what i meant with the squishies ... is that maybe u dont go in hf then takiest ppl in the tw anymore when ur deity ... maybe u look for the enemy supports.. clerics other bm's squishy la's and aa's ... u can still easily get behind the front lines and just wreck every cleric behind them dd's ... that is what i meant.. by not wasting time hfing ccing the front lines and just cutting all the support away they have.. blade hurl into 6 clerics ... 6 dead clerics .. whos healing the dd's then .. no1 .. then its easy picking for ur own dd's

FaceRolI - Sanctuary

If we just talk deity vs JOSD then obviously Deity is better for dealing damage.

What is the advantage of increasing the killing power of a BM versus say a wizard/archer?

As a deity wizard 1/2 of my role in TW is to "thin the crowd" and take out the "squishy" opponents. Even with ~180 atk level my ultis don't generally 1 shot other endgame (+12/11 good shards) opponents when buffed, maybe if crit. On the other hand I can still generally clear the field of +10 armor exclusive cit level r999ers even if they are full buffed. The other 1/2 of my role is to solo kill enemy mid range cata barbs (on our server most factions dont have 4/4 endgame cata pullers) and help w/ the endgame pullers.

In terms of 1v1 or small scale PvP a JOSD BM is pretty close to indestructible when played right... and will also still have a path to victory vs most opponents via control and wearing down their opponent. Unless you are trying to solo kill an endgame cata puller I dont see how the deity really benefits you over JOSD even in 1v1 or small scale pvp.

A 6 second roar that stuns just 5 people absorbs 120k damage (if each persons dps is 4k, ofc i just picked 4k as somewhat reasonable). Additionally it enables your midrange DDs to effectively trade vs equal or even endgame opponents (removal/inactivation of opponents endgame/midgame). This is way more valuable (and specific of a role, who else does this as well?) than "crowd thinning" (removal of larger #s but only low/mid gear).

You can turn a carrot into a clarinet but you could just use a clarinet. On the other hand if you just wanted a carrot clarinet then by all means go for it. That said I would be very happy if all the JOSD BMs on my server went deity, carrots are delicious \o/

ablabahabla

as this bm shows, deity can be pretty good actually and still tanky, though ofc without buffs your in big trouble.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCaZIAPCmpfzSc1ly3mbhjdg

but who isnt gonna die in a sec when purged and no domain or ig can be used nowadays?

hope u like them vids