Multipathing the BM again! Need opinions

Egamoto - Harshlands

I used to love my bm's choice of playstyle provided through the variety of weapons I could use...
I always knew that I'd make an axe bm eventually and stick with mainly axe playstyle. Then R9 came out, and r9r, and r9rr later.

The only available weapon we get as r9rr is the axe.

I currently have my r9rr axe at +11

Here's where I need your advise...Would I? and if so, Why on earth, would I switch my weapon during PvP since my best chance for (not just highest) decent damage is with that axe? Why waste precious seconds on other weapons skills?

Why switch to pole for example (lets assume +5 G16 pole) and chain 2 skills to get a higher crit chance on a skill that IF it crits it will deal as much dmg as my r9 would usually do? I mean I could spend that time closing in on my target instead to start my stun lock.

Other than the sword skill that gives you chi which as a demon bm I believe would prove to be very valuable what other options are there for r9rr bms?

This is an honest attempt to shower on fellow bimers wisdom. What do you guys think about this?

TheDan - Sanctuary

Prime examples are when you have a purge spear to purge a priority target, or when you're tanking to put on a r8r def level weapon (25-30 def levels is huge)

Fists are ok for building chi on a non threat target.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

TheDan - Sanctuary wrote: »

Prime examples are when you have a purge spear to purge a priority target, or when you're tanking to put on a r8r def level weapon (25-30 def levels is huge)

Fists are ok for building chi on a non threat target.

^ This

Please note: I am not that much of a pvper, so if you feel you know better than me, then by all means ignore my advice. :X

Myriad Sword stance is also a good option to use.

Not to mention the new skill that gives a 'ranged' stun with the primal skills.

ΩFarstrike

Range 20 Meters
Mana 165
Channel 0.8 seconds
Cast 1.2 seconds
Cooldown 6.0 seconds
Chi Gained 20
Weapon Poleblade, Pike, or Club

Requisite Cultivation Aware of the Void
Magically empower your weapon to strike a distant
foe. Deals base physical damage plus 120% of weapon
damage plus 6918. If the target is more than 10
Meters away, it will be stunned for 3 seconds

Primal version generates 20 Chi.
Primal version never misses.

Not to mention there area few other decent/nice skills that could be used in mass pvp/pve while being an all path bm.

I.E

Mage Bane (Channeling speed increased could help against an single target caster) Chi can be an issue though. ) Sword Only

Shadowless Kick (interrupts/cancels channeling) Fist only

Meteror rush (chiless chance at a stun... if its demon)

---

I think the primal skills have a lot of potential, and while some of them may not be limited to a specific weapon path, I still think there are quite a few pros to being an all path bm... I think bms limit themselves way entirely too much when they choose to go one path.

Egamoto - Harshlands

First off thanl you guys for takin the time to look through this and reply.

I totally agree with the purge and def lvl functionality of weapon switching. My question was oriented towards the new bm skills that try to refurnish the bm playstyle.

Lets take the new farstrike for example. It doesnt stun. It immobilises for 3 seconds. 3 seconds are not even enough to close in on the target from 20 meters away even if you use speed buff. Also its immobilise! target can still attack,use pot, etc etc. I am sure Dan would say immobilse and smack (immobilise+seal = technicly stun ) but when PvP is heated and I see my target start fleeing I'll go for the smack ASAP to get the kill before charm ticks, so by the time I smack and switch to pole to start casting farstrike target is way out of range.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

Egamoto - Harshlands wrote: »

First off thanl you guys for takin the time to look through this and reply.

I totally agree with the purge and def lvl functionality of weapon switching. My question was oriented towards the new bm skills that try to refurnish the bm playstyle.

Lets take the new farstrike for example. It doesnt stun. It immobilises for 3 seconds. 3 seconds are not even enough to close in on the target from 20 meters away even if you use speed buff. Also its immobilise! target can still attack,use pot, etc etc. I am sure Dan would say immobilse and smack (immobilise+seal = technicly stun ) but when PvP is heated and I see my target start fleeing I'll go for the smack ASAP to get the kill before charm ticks, so by the time I smack and switch to pole to start casting farstrike target is way out of range.

Oi it immobilizes? That blows Especially considering that they have to be 10 meters away for the 'stun' to work.

Good to know albeit ill still likely eventually get it.

Still don't forget the leaps/reckless rush/reel in albeit I do believe they aren't that useful all the time, especially while under-geared/in mass pvp. Still they do have a little potential to close gaps albeit they all cost chi in some form or another. Even with genies/apo it can be hard to keep up chi in mass pvp. (To be fair about that last bit, it may be easier once I get all the new skills, but for now, while my survivability has gone up a tad on my bm, I am noticing more and more a significant lack of chi. )

Life is not pretty on a bm, we are indeed supports. (I for one question just how 'good' of a support we are these days especially with the purify proc running rampant all over the place, but meh that is not a conversation I want to get into here/again.)

Either way I am backing out of this convo... as I suspect my words is bound to draw the ire of someone somewhere. ;X

opkossy

It also somewhat depends on your own speed with hotkeys and your reaction time.

Someone who does everything via hotkeys and has a fast reaction can pull off a weapon swap, cast a skill, and be on another weapon to do something else much faster than someone who, say, has to do it all via clicking.

A good example is back when CCing still existed. Anyone with skill could do one, a good BM could do 2, and the greats could do 3/4. It required the same thing, sure, but the greatest ones had the speed to actually pull it off. Hitting someone with a 3 sec immobilize can catch them off guard if you're fast enough to follow up while they were trying to get close to you or kite you. But if you don't have the speed to follow up (or are impaired in some manner otherwise) then you'd be better off trying to focus on your defenses traditionally.

Obviously, the more you practice this sort of thing, the easier it will get with time... and that will wind up giving you more situational options and flexibility as a multipath BM than if you were to stick to just a single weapon type.

Madebyvisa - Raging Tide

the new skills for sure didn't make me wanna go all wep paths any more than before.. (practically nvr wanted nothing else than axes) but kossy has appoint if ur dayum fast with ur hotkeys they can be of use ... other than that I don't see any reason to swap away from axes in anything pve nor pvp related anymore... (okays fine gs swap on some bosses if u lack certain other classes for pve and for demon its btr than hfing in pvp) but yeah other than that no point.

Saethos - Raging Tide

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

^ This

Please note: I am not that much of a pvper, so if you feel you know better than me, then by all means ignore my advice. :X

Myriad Sword stance is also a good option to use.

Not to mention the new skill that gives a 'ranged' stun with the primal skills.



Not to mention there area few other decent/nice skills that could be used in mass pvp/pve while being an all path bm.

I.E

Mage Bane (Channeling speed increased could help against an single target caster) Chi can be an issue though. ) Sword Only

Shadowless Kick (interrupts/cancels channeling) Fist only

Meteror rush (chiless chance at a stun... if its demon)

---

I think the primal skills have a lot of potential, and while some of them may not be limited to a specific weapon path, I still think there are quite a few pros to being an all path bm... I think bms limit themselves way entirely too much when they choose to go one path.

On Mage Bane...Mage Bane gets turned into Dragon Rising, which is the new paralyze effect, and has different effects with different weapons. Using a pole keeps the bleed damage, using the sword keeps the channeling (but has had an increase in duration) and using an axe increases duration of the paralyze. You won't be using that skill with a sword. A longer stun is much more precious than praying your enemy doesn't proc purify (paralyze will stay, all other debuffs are removed.)

So Mage Bane is out of the picture. Shadowless Kick is OK...But I'm a non-fist BM. As a sage my meteor rush is my interruption, soon to be star smite, and I even still rarely use it. Speaking of star smite, you say if demon for meteor rush, but sage gets the effect now, too, once upgraded.

Egamoto - Harshlands wrote: »

First off thanl you guys for takin the time to look through this and reply.

I totally agree with the purge and def lvl functionality of weapon switching. My question was oriented towards the new bm skills that try to refurnish the bm playstyle.

Lets take the new farstrike for example. It doesnt stun. It immobilises for 3 seconds. 3 seconds are not even enough to close in on the target from 20 meters away even if you use speed buff. Also its immobilise! target can still attack,use pot, etc etc. I am sure Dan would say immobilse and smack (immobilise+seal = technicly stun ) but when PvP is heated and I see my target start fleeing I'll go for the smack ASAP to get the kill before charm ticks, so by the time I smack and switch to pole to start casting farstrike target is way out of range.

Immobilize is much more than for yourself at a range. Let's stick us in a NW situation, You and your squad just cleared out a group, and you see in the distance someone chasing an ally of yours, or even a ranged ally kiting a melee, but they just can't seem to close/open the distance and you're too far. Pop a farstrike, help an ally.

Guess what I'm sayin is it seems to me the new farstrike effect isn't for us BMs, it's for when we just can't make it in time. I can also see this being when a tanky class has the NW flag, you can immob from far if your speed buff is on cd without consuming chi when the person is under heavy fire. They usually get stunned asap, so you can use that stun to close the distance as well.

Alone the skill effect is nonfactor, but I can see uses of the skill in group situations. Not everyone will be in your AoE range. And also what kossy said with speed. If you can't change fast enough, leave it be.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

Saethos - Raging Tide wrote: »

On Mage Bane...Mage Bane gets turned into Dragon Rising, which is the new paralyze effect, and has different effects with different weapons. Using a pole keeps the bleed damage, using the sword keeps the channeling (but has had an increase in duration) and using an axe increases duration of the paralyze. You won't be using that skill with a sword. A longer stun is much more precious than praying your enemy doesn't proc purify (paralyze will stay, all other debuffs are removed.)

So Mage Bane is out of the picture. Shadowless Kick is OK...But I'm a non-fist BM. As a sage my meteor rush is my interruption, soon to be star smite, and I even still rarely use it. Speaking of star smite, you say if demon for meteor rush, but sage gets the effect now, too, once upgraded.


-snip- to shorten this post. :$

Thank you for the corrections, I still haven't delved too deeply into what skills are lost upon getting the primal versions. I have been focusing more on the skill damage passive, and even more so the defensive passive.

After all blademasters do have the... most skills to learn. :$

Atropah - Sanctuary

Egamoto - Harshlands wrote: »

Why on earth, would I switch my weapon during PvP since my best chance for (not just highest) decent damage is with that axe? Why waste precious seconds on other weapons skills?

Axes offer the highest dph and the highest potential dps, but on average even r9t3 axes fall bellow G16 claws when using aps gear. Of course, using aps gear in pvp is rarely the smartest idea but if you have a comfortable stunlock (knowing your opponent has burned their anti-stuns) or have popped a Dew of Protection and can comfortably aps then you'll get much better damage output. In 1v1 against a barb or a sin you can almost comfortably phys marrow and swap to aps gear (pretty much the same against axe only BMs. Not too concerned about their damage output). This is one of the best ways to either race a charm that's just ticked or to get it near 50% to charm bipass with axes.

Last I checked I needed over a 70% zerk rate for my r9t3 axes to compete with the dps of my claws (haven't redone the math since avatars, though). It's the best way to bring down hose 40k+ barbs.

Also, one of my favorite 'lol moments' in NW is I was in a 30 v 8 where we had the 30 but the 8 were all r9t3 +10-12 base locking us. They had pro flag runners and pro ranged DDs and the DD's would just travel behind picking off anyone that tried to slow the flag carrier. I died competing for the flag and respawned as the flag runner ran by with only the 1.5 sparks dieing gives you. I ran out and was able to grab one of their DD's, a famous archer in our forums, and start stunlocking. Of course, 1.5 sparks doesn't last long or allow you to setup a kill but I was swapping axes and claws and managed to stunlock him for a a few minutes. At one point he whispered "good stunlock," then "lol... afk". Then he whispered "I don't mind all the damage, it earns me points". I eventually had enough chi to Diamond Sutra + HF. Can't build that chi or maintain that stunlock without weapon swapping.

I know you're LF example with the new skills, but since I've quit PWI I haven't farmed them. I do know PWI reduced MSS to one spark and made it more practical for crowd control in TW. Also, a very underused skill that's a staple in my arsenal is Bolt of Tyreseus.

prof

Egamoto - Harshlands wrote: »

Here's where I need your advise...Would I? and if so, Why on earth, would I switch my weapon during PvP since my best chance for (not just highest) decent damage is with that axe? Why waste precious seconds on other weapons skills?

"Why on earth" would you want to use a line-aoe, chi-less stun with a debuff pole? Or an attack with a far distance? I would think conserving chi and still stunning someone would be ideal.

Egamoto - Harshlands wrote: »

Why switch to pole for example (lets assume +5 G16 pole) and chain 2 skills to get a higher crit chance on a skill that IF it crits it will deal as much dmg as my r9 would usually do? I mean I could spend that time closing in on my target instead to start my stun lock.

Nobody uses glacial in pvp anymore unless dragon's are on cooldown, and even then, it's probably better to conserve chi. You use a spear for two skills in pvp: Meteor Rush and Farstrike, nothing more.

Egamoto - Harshlands wrote: »

Other than the sword skill that gives you chi which as a demon bm I believe would prove to be very valuable what other options are there for r9rr bms?

You get a sword purely to use Flash, nothing else. Mage's Bane has too high of a cost, and is now completely gone with the new primal skill. Atmos Strike may prove useful when fighting someone with a large amount of dodge, and Spirit Chaser's new primal form could prove useful if you opt for an offensive spear rather than a debuff spear. MSS is useless unless you really want to use a ranged, 2-fury, 3 second stun.


In regards to fist: unless you have -.15 r8r gear, you wouldn't use them in pvp anymore due to the severe loss of attack and defense levels. Even if you did have that gear, I still don't know if it would be viable. Rapid attacks on the abundance of purify weapons would do nothing for us.

Egamoto - Harshlands

prof wrote: »

Nobody uses glacial in pvp anymore unless dragon's are on cooldown, and even then, it's probably better to conserve chi. You use a spear for two skills in pvp: Meteor Rush and Farstrike, nothing more.


When I mentioned this I did mean meteor rush new that increases the crit rate of farstrike new and not glacial spike.


Secondly ty for your replies everyone. I will bust my *** to get faster at my wep swaps, even though this is not a matter of speed for me but the question is more of a question about power and the "need" to switch from your r9rr axe at any time during battle.

I agree with the comment about mass pvp-ing usefullness of farstrike.

eraldus

prof wrote: »

"Why on earth" would you want to use a line-aoe, chi-less stun with a debuff pole? Or an attack with a far distance? I would think conserving chi and still stunning someone would be ideal.


Nobody uses glacial in pvp anymore unless dragon's are on cooldown, and even then, it's probably better to conserve chi. You use a spear for two skills in pvp: Meteor Rush and Farstrike, nothing more.


You get a sword purely to use Flash, nothing else. Mage's Bane has too high of a cost, and is now completely gone with the new primal skill. Atmos Strike may prove useful when fighting someone with a large amount of dodge, and Spirit Chaser's new primal form could prove useful if you opt for an offensive spear rather than a debuff spear. MSS is useless unless you really want to use a ranged, 2-fury, 3 second stun.


In regards to fist: unless you have -.15 r8r gear, you wouldn't use them in pvp anymore due to the severe loss of attack and defense levels. Even if you did have that gear, I still don't know if it would be viable. Rapid attacks on the abundance of purify weapons would do nothing for us.

MSS is not useless. It can **** up a group of peple on mass pvp with it's debuffs (200 less physical damage and 300% less magical damage ever since the Descent expansion). Also, you can combo it with HF for massive damage. Oh, and now, lvl 11 MSS costs 1 spark only, making the sage version have a 50% to cost 50 chi now.

And about GS, I don't see why a BM wouldn't consider using it, as the lvl 11 GS adds a massive debuff to both physical defense (90% to physical defense and 60% to magical defense, also, ever since the Descent expansion).