Help! sage vs Demon

Darkarim - Archosaur

I am having the hardest time deciding if i should go for APS Demon or DPH Sage. and so i had some questions!

How much faster can a demon farm than sage? ( numbers would be nice)
can a sage really take hits in pvp?
what do YOU think is more fun over all?
is sage really better for pvp purposes?

Thank you!

Toraah - Archosaur

Darkarim - Archosaur wrote: »

I am having the hardest time deciding if i should go for APS Demon or DPH Sage. and so i had some questions!

How much faster can a demon farm than sage? ( numbers would be nice)
can a sage really take hits in pvp?
what do YOU think is more fun over all?
is sage really better for pvp purposes?

Thank you!

Farming purposes, demon is better. Sure sage has it's benefits, but demon is superior overall. I don't have any numbers for it, I always farmed as sage.

PvP wise, I think that dph sage is much more fun than aps demon, and more logical with r9r3 puri proc, aps will proc too often to be efficient. I wouldn't say that sage can take more hits than demon, however sage sins certainly evade more skills than demons (gg 66% tidal). It's really a personal preference whether sage or demon is for you, I tried both in pvp and I was much more successful as sage.

Fissile - Archosaur

If you go for r9 daggers with a good refine you can pretty much derp through all pve as either sage or demon. If you want absolute max dps, you can hit 5 aps with r9 recast daggers and r8 recast armor (rerolling the r8 for interval will probably end up costing similar to r9 gear).

Using aps gear for pvp will leave you at a huge disadvantage though. Sage has some advantages in terms of skills for pvp. If your priority is farming, I would go with demon. If you are more interested in pvp I would go sage. Either way, you will most likely want 2 sets of armor. Your budget would determine what kind of armor that is (awakened ashura or r9 recast for pvp and tt99 or r8 recast for farming).

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Darkarim - Archosaur wrote: »

I am having the hardest time deciding if i should go for APS Demon or DPH Sage. and so i had some questions!

How much faster can a demon farm than sage? ( numbers would be nice)
can a sage really take hits in pvp?
what do YOU think is more fun over all?
is sage really better for pvp purposes?

Thank you!

It's not really a question of DPH vs APS mate.

Sage has cons and pro's for APS and DPH, the same with demon.

Sage APS:
-Higher BP return when unsparked
-Higher passive survivability when you can't rely on aps
-Better chi skills
-Higher status evasion
-Higher passive damage when lv10 WE and unsparked
-Safest farming culti, especially in low refined gear

Demon APS:
-Better chi when auto atking
-Permaspark
-Better burst and constant damage when sparked
-Longer Telejump range
-Ability to use sage bloodpaint from a buffer
-Fastest farming culti

ZooozOOo - Archosaur

well very hard to say in numbers as how much faster a demon will farm than a sage bt all that can be said is faster.. when ur farming many other factors affect ur run.. bt still approximately abt 4-5mins faster in case of 3-2 n 3-3 n in case of fc abt 1mins.. sage is a lot more tanky than demon... both r very much fun depends on what u want n how u want after playing both i can say if we consider aps demon is better dd than sage bt sage is better tank.. when we talk abt dph well sage leaves demon behind quite a bit because of spark n skill benefits..ppl mostly talk abt demon spark when they talk abt demon sin bt actually after playing demon sin over the years n as a dph sin as well i can tell u that deep sting n wolf is probably the best demon sin skill as dph sage spark in dph is far better than demon cuz of the additional def... most important question is do u like spamming skill or do u like locking ppl n aps what ever u like the best..
ppl rite fully bring up the point of puri proc n aps disadvantage over it bt if u like to take the challenge on try to find some thing new i think u can go for it to..

Pwnallagain - Heavens Tear

For pve, who cares.
For pvp, sage all the way. Sage tidal makes the difference. Unless you plan on using r8r armor and going for 5.0 r9 sparked, go sage. If you want to test your luck with armor rolls, go demon and hope for double int chest.

In my experience, I started out demon for the aps. Then, once I farmed my pvp r9s3 set, I switched to sage because of its clear advantages in pvp as a dph sin. I love sage 5x more than i liked demon and I could never see myself switching back.

WannaBM - Archosaur

I cant say anything about PvP.

For PvE, the difference in killing speed is rather significant. I noticed this most of all when i was doing mobless with a +12 R9 3.33 sage sin. He didnt keep agro if he "forgot" to use his skill that makes almost every hit crit. While a G16+10 5aps demon sin wil keep agro no matter what he does.

Your demon APS probably makes about 50% more dps (5.0 = 3.33 +50%) if you use the sage exactly the same as the demon.
Genie skill windshield for extra aps on your sage can roughly reduce that to 25%. (4.0)

Killing speed is however not farming speed. Much of your time in TT is lost on running around and killing mobs that die so fast that you wont see the difference between the demon and sage. So about half the time you fight bosses and the other half you are running around. Again cutting the speed loss in half for the overal run. So i would say if you use sage with windshield, youre probably going to be some 10% slower or so overal.

peckked

Most endgame APS sets with r93 daggers have a base of 2.86.. not 3.33. Consequently, most demon sins (4.0) have a 20% advantage vs sage (3.33 using windshield) when 3 sparked.

As mentioned before, half of many runs is killing mobs, half is killing bosses. When soloing, a sage sin will clear out mobs faster because of their higher bp return and slightly higher unsparked damage, much higher damage with windshield, and constant wolf emblem. Demon sins can kill mobs faster if they 3 spark on mobs, but when you consider the ~3s to chan/cast spark and the inefficiency of their wolf emblem once they run out of mobs, the sage sins are considerably faster at clearing. Solo TT 3-x runs basically come out to being around the same time, sage or demon. Bosses that spam sleep, stun, seal etc also come out to taking around the same time in spite of demons DPS advantage since sage sins tend to deal with these bosses easier with sage tidal protection and higher returns for their chi skills if they need to make up the chi loss from being CCed. This is mostly limited to TT though. In frost or lunar, demons will always be faster.

@WannaBM - when it comes to mobless WS everyone needs to know what to do and when to do it. A tanking sage sin "forgetting to use [powerdash]" is akin to forgetting to IG. It's not a limitation of the cultivation choice but a shortcoming of the player who "forgot."

For PVP, the current trend for skill spamming favors sage. Kinda disappointed in the demon community as a whole since they seem to have forgetten their favorite old school strategy of apsing things to death, which is potentially more effective when used properly, than our new "OP" primal skills in full r93.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

peckked wrote: »

For PVP, the current trend for skill spamming favors sage. Kinda disappointed in the demon community as a whole since they seem to have forgetten their favorite old school strategy of apsing things to death, which is potentially more effective when used properly, than our new "OP" primal skills in full r93.

+1 this. Even as a r9rr sage sin, I know that APS still has it's uses in PvP. Especially in situations where opponents rely on overwhelming defense (like a cleric using plumeshell). APS will allow you to burn it better, which has netted me some kills DPH would not.

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

6K HP aps gear sins in CotD is the most hilarious thing ever

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

6K HP aps gear sins in CotD is the most hilarious thing ever

b:laughMany laughs

Atropah - Sanctuary

Many good answers in this thread that I'd agree with. Except for this:

peckked wrote: »

Most endgame APS sets with r93 daggers have a base of 2.86.. not 3.33. Consequently, most demon sins (4.0) have a 20% advantage vs sage (3.33 using windshield) when 3 sparked.
If you're going to add genie use you can assume the demon is using their genie also, either for frenzy, EP, a combo of both... Dps is always calculated sans genie use. A Sage will be 2.86 and a demon 4.0 with r9t3, a 40% difference. If we're comparing G16 5aps and 3.33 that's a 50% difference in favor of demon.
As mentioned before, half of many runs is killing mobs, half is killing bosses.Stealth. We're sins. When soloing, a sage sin will clear out mobs faster because of their higher bp returnNot sure how bp affects killing speed. If you're talking about for larger pulls it's pretty impossible to aoe and not get a full health bar whether using sage or demon paint as long as there are 3+ mobs. and slightly higher unsparked damage, much higher damage with windshieldwindshield effects damage now?, and constant wolf emblem The stronger demon wolf emblem would allow for better pulls. Pulls are typically done during the WE and the stronger dph means mobs die faster (most in 1-2 aoes) and you take less damage.. Demon sins can kill mobs faster if they 3 spark on mobs, but when you consider the ~3s to chan/cast spark Was going to give the favor to sparking sages, since their triple spark allows them to tank slightly large pulls. and the inefficiency of their wolf emblem once they run out of mobs, the sage sins are considerably faster at clearing.

Have said this before, in almost any instance the space between mobs can be fit into a WE cooldown for demons, meaning for PVE purposes WE is almost a constant buff for smart sins. If the mobs are that close then just pull them together and kill them at the same time with WE active. The only time WE is inactive for demon's should be on your 3rd and 4th sparks for high hp bosses. Not sure why we're talking about mob clearing for a class that can stealth, anyways.

Solo TT 3-x runs basically come out to being around the same time, sage or demon.
[COLOR="cyan'']To answer the OPs question, sage and demon are roughly the same speed as long as the bosses die in 1-2 sparks. If the bosses take longer than that the advantage goes to demon. Demon's will have 40-50% dps output over Sage's. It's sometimes higher (40% WE vs 10% sage) and sometimes lower (sage mastery gains them 1.5% dps). Demons also don't need to waste sparked time using skills like Rising Dragon Strike or Tackling Slash to remain permasparked. Those skills use 2 seconds of our sparks and eat at dps when trying to permaspark.

Sage Tidal will save you sometime. Really, 50% demon vs 66% sage isn't huge in pve. Not enough to make more than a couple seconds time difference from sleeps (next hit wakes you) and seal/stun which usually last 3-5 seconds. The biggest amount of time it will save you is from boss purges and the scramble of repainting, staying alive, and regaining chi. Or worse, if you die from a boss purge and have to walk back that can take several minutes.[/COLOR]

@WannaBM - when it comes to mobless WS everyone needs to know what to do and when to do it. A tanking sage sin "forgetting to use [powerdash]" is akin to forgetting to IG. It's not a limitation of the cultivation choice but a shortcoming of the player who "forgot."
Sage PD is still 'meh' in my book and I will always fault a sin who uses it instead of Subsea unless they really really need to be tank. It takes 1.2 seconds to cast and it rarely offers a full 50% crit since most sins have 60% crit rate or higher (especially with the new passives) and means the sin has used their Inner Harmony and may need to stop their dps again to use a second chi skill before the boss dies. Overall it's a 8-14% damage increase for a single player, while Subsea is a 30-50% dps increase for the squad or at least a 10-30% increase over EP.

Hope some of that info helps. I agree with Fissile that a demon is a substantially better farmer while a sage is a significantly better pvper. I also think the new skills helped sages better because the dph sage sin now has very high dph skills that are spammable. Skill spamming no longer requires planning and coordination since it can be done between 2 skills.

Sage dph sin is what all the kids are currently doing for pvp. I personally don't care about pvp and dislike my sage sin in pve. I get better paint heals on my demon because of his much higher dps, I kill faster, and I don't have that vulnerable time where my spark is about to die and I need to channel a skill for chi and am getting zero paint heals.

What I would like to point out and add to the conversation is different cultis are better at different times. I wouldn't say one is cheaper/more expensive but they can do different things on different budgets. Sages can solo earlier. Their triple sparks allow them to hop into TT 2-X and 3-X with only 5-6k hp. Demon's then take over being the better farmer once they can survive, around 7-8k hp. Pretty much anything in pve can be done with 8k hp. In PvP I'd favor a cheap demon aps sin then a cheap sage dph sin because while both are squishy and vulnerable the demon has a better chance of killing you before you kill him, even if it's just trip spark->AD->aps. For r9t3 or well geared endgame pvp the sage sin has the advantage. Sage TP combined with 700 dex (mass evasion) and 30k hp, not to mention sage chi skills allowing them to triple spark several times in one engagement and have damage reduction makes a sin who is willing to kite during their cooldowns almost impossible to kill.

peckked

Just to follow up on some of your comments:

1) Windshield is spammable.. frenzy is not. Sage sins can use windshield and extreme poison so wasn't worth mentioning. Looking at DPS without _________ is silly and doesn't hold up in actual gameplay where people build their character/genie for specific uses. Almost every sage sin who gives a damn about APS has windshield on a genie built for spamming it, and, if done right, still has access to extreme poison, tangling mire, and/or even frenzy.

2) I was mostly referring to TT and perhaps lunar. Stealth doesn't help much when you have to kill x mobs.

3) The reference to BP has to do with survivability. Many demons (obviously not endgame) NEED to spark in order to get better BP returns in order to survive. 3 seconds to spark every time you run into another group of mobs = potentially takes longer. I'm talking about TT mostly here where you typically don't do large pulls.

4) Windshield increases APS and consequently damage (sparked or unsparked).

5) Again, in TT you're not doing large pulls and most sins can't/don't pull in frost or lunar solo. Therefore a demon sin either A) forgoes wolf emblem or doesn't make full use of the limited time their wolf emblem offers

6) I'm starting to wonder where (except maybe frost) you are pulling while solo with an APS set.

7) The space between mobs for WE cooldown makes sense... if it takes 30s or more to kill a small group of mobs. This is seldom the case for 3 sparking demon sins even undergeared. As far as using it for pulling mobs and 1-2 shot-aoe, while it's effective, it fails when it comes to maximizing the use of the time while the buff remains active as it is certainly not 55s between mobs anywhere unless you're stealthing which really only applies to frost.

8) Your comment with regards to powerdash makes no sense at all. We were talking about mobless Warsong which means the boss dies in 1 3-spark or the squad wipes. There will be another sin casting subsea. Powerdash is used to ensure that agro doesn't bounce. The tank will also have up full immunity (AD or IG) to avoid the one-shot so BP heals aren't a factor at all. Average sins (read: not 105/105/105 /emperor tome) in APS gear typically border right on 50% even with the passives carrying an r93 weapon and typically less with NV3.

9) I maintain that the damage difference due to aps is less because a sage sin WILL be spamming windshield unless underwater. Sage Wolf Emblem is 20% not 10%. Sage sins do not use their chi skills while still sparked unless they absolutely need the damage reduction, they wait until the spark has worn off, which means that for every spark necessary to kill a boss, a sage sin adds ~2s per spark. Even if you say a demon can do 50% more damage (which I disagree with wholeheartedly) and therefore take 2/3 the time a sage would, a boss which takes 5 sparks, would take 75seconds (5x15 seconds) for the demon, and ~127.5seconds (5x17*1.5). That's less than 1min difference per boss which roughly equates to ~5min/TT-run. And it doesn't apply to time spent killing mobs or walking/running through the instance.

It seems to me that you lack reading comprehension as the majority of your comments took mine out of context. It also seems that you just don't understand the mechanics behind a sage sin.

Keep in mind that most of what I said was with regards to the average or even undergeared sin. At endgame gear/level/shards/refines, culti really doesn't matter at all when solo farming. Things die and they die fast. As far as demon's being substantially better for farming... that depends on what you perceive to be the difference in time and how "substantial" that really is. It doesn't take a sage sin 50% longer than a demon to farm any run. It doesn't take 20% longer. I suspect the difference being closer to 5-10%. So if a run takes a demon 30min, 3 extra minutes becomes very subjective in terms of how significant this is. Perhaps I should also add that once a sin does hit endgame they'll spend a good chunk of their time solo farming Aba/SoT for those elusive primal prerequisite skills, assuming they didn't just CS them, and sage would be the culti of choice for puppeteer and hellfire.

Going beyond soloing to squad PVE, both new primal instances favor sage, large pulls in lunar and warsong both favor sage skills, and BH Aba/SoT/GV all favor sage. For squad runs post-100, that leaves BH EU and AEU where neither culti sees any real advantage due to 10man squads, and BH TT where you gotta ask, does the demon really outshine sage in a squad that needs to kill only 2 bosses and when sage subsea's stronger amp gives greater benefit to the whole squad?

The more I think about it, the more inclined I am to say that sage IS better than demon in PVE more often than not with only 2 exceptions: Soloing frost (difference of 1-2min) and solo farming TT (difference of ~5min).

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

peckked wrote: »

The more I think about it, the more inclined I am to say that sage IS better than demon in PVE more often than not with only 2 exceptions: Soloing frost (difference of 1-2min) and solo farming TT (difference of ~5min).

I'd like to follow up on this.

The reason people always said demon>sage was due to killing speed in instances, mathmatically demon has 50-51% increase in damage output, but people forget something.

Sage DD gives a very decent percent increase on damage over demons, whether they like it or not. I have about 800-1k more physical attack than demon sins in the same gear (cards and all). On a class where the high end attack is so low (about 22-24k for +12 r9rr full, and 17-19k for aps) thats a huge number. Averaging about 3.7-5% per auto attack more than demons unsparked, this is then multiplied by sage spark by 500%. See where im going with this Atropah?

Lets talk about demon sins and sage sins in the actual game. I play my wifes sin which is demon. I still prefer my sin. Why? Her sin is not only lesser geared, but it can't stall like mine can. It has no choice but to auto attack to keep up survivability, meaning it can't afford to stop auto attacking like a sage sin can. This also means she does not make use of subsea or powerdash like I can because she has to make up for being squishier.

The fact is most demon sins don't use powerdash more than sage sins becauce those without uber gear cant afford to. This also goes for subsea. While sage sins in general, tailor their genie to offense. My sin only has 1 defensive skill on his genie, my wife has 3. I can Subsea, mire, and frenzy, and windsheild at the same time on my genie, and still keep up my sparks at 2.5 aps base. I farm 2-3x faster than my wifes g16+10 at 4 aps, I am r9rr+10.Most demon sins would die with an aps that low.

Pwnallagain - Heavens Tear

All in all, sage rocks all around. Go for it!

Atropah - Sanctuary

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Sage DD gives a very decent percent increase on damage over demons, whether they like it or not. I have about 800-1k more physical attack than demon sins in the same gear (cards and all). On a class where the high end attack is so low (about 22-24k for +12 r9rr full, and 17-19k for aps) thats a huge number. Averaging about 3.7-5% per auto attack more than demons unsparked, this is then multiplied by sage spark by 500%. See where im going with this Atropah?

The fact is most demon sins don't use powerdash more than sage sins becauce those without uber gear cant afford to. This also goes for subsea.

You're right that unsparked sage gets a 3-5% dph boost from their mastery, but it doesn't effect the triple spark. That means when triple sparked the difference drops to around 1.5%, which is made up by the demon's +2% crit rate (which comes out to only around 1.5% more dph also). Roughly a push, although dagger mastery is one skill that demon's have better in pvp because the crit rate is preferred.

One criticism I have about the community is most dph demon's learn from dph sages and so try to play dph demon's like sage. The chi usage and skill spamming isn't the same. Sage's are known for their high dph, but as you pointed out its only 3-5% unsparked, 1-2% higher sparked. Another infamous example of sage's dph superiority is the 5 attack level difference of CotD. I have a friend who has over 180 attack levels. CotD puts him around 220. Overall, that's only about a 15% dph gain from CotD. Substantial, sure. But the 5 attack level difference at that point only makes less than 2% dph difference. This 2-4% dph difference total can be made up with some of our skills. On the other hand, demon's are going to use stuns (control skills) while sage's are going to spend more of a long fight triple sparked which has much better dph obviously.

And I agree on your assessment of offensive sage vs defensive demon. I know when I fight bosses like GBA I'll save my Inner Harmony because I may get my spark purged and have to repaint and triple spark to survive. I almost always have IH on cd when soloing because I prefer it for defense. Then again, a sage's damage reduction would have been purged, but your points still the same. Even in FCC I usually leave my IH on cd in case I catch a long sleep or need to purify Decaying Fragrance' defense debuff.

I think it's become less important, though. I keep laughing at pecked assessment of endgame sins and what a demon "needs" because he obviously doesn't remember when 7k hp G13 sins soloing much of the endgame material. Sure, somethings have changed but a huge amount of content is the same. Our hp and defenses and gear keeps getting higher, we just, as a community, seem to suck more as that happens. Nowadays many sins have 8-10k hp and 2-4k more defenses than our ancestors and still are consider squishy. That's way more than what sage or demon's were soloing with but because that's now just mid-early game hp/def they're still considered squishy.

Sin's rarely use defense skills, even the squishy ones. Somewhat unfortunate but it's part of the playstyle of the sin. Subsea on Demon's lasting 15 seconds means we have 130% paint heals for 15 seconds. That's both offensive and defensive. It's beautiful. Most demon sins will not shy away from a a highly offensive genie. Btw peck, EP and Frenzy are both spammable for several sparks. Then you can skip one spark and have another 3-4 sparks of spammability. Not many bosses even last 4 sparks. And genies aren't culti based, which is why we typically ignore them when doing dps calcs.

Shadowvzss - Harshlands

sin got 6666 weapon domt at end game? coz only if with that weapon damage became 1k base dmg from 15% mastery difference vs pitty critical chance bonus this not really significient, and like was said 3rd spark dont increase nothing else than pure eq dmg (so no from mastery and buffs and dex)

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Shadowvzss - Harshlands wrote: »

sin got 6666 weapon domt at end game? coz only if with that weapon damage became 1k base dmg from 15% mastery difference vs pitty critical chance bonus this not really significient, and like was said 3rd spark dont increase nothing else than pure eq dmg (so no from mastery and buffs and dex)

Crit chance requires you to actually crit to make a difference. I get 100% crit chance, even in aps gear, so demon mastery is unless to me.b:laugh

blazingdaggerz

b:surrender would it be a smart idea if u went full rrr9 and went demon? b:thanks

WannaBM - Archosaur

Shadowvzss - Harshlands wrote: »

sin got 6666 weapon domt at end game?

25k - 30k sparked i think.b:chuckle

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

25k - 30k sparked i think.b:chuckle

In my r9rr (+10 dags 690 dex) set i have 24.4-31.2k sparkedb:chuckleb:cry People keep calling me OP.

peckked

Sorry wannabm but I think that's phys attack not weapon damage. Weapon damage on an ~endgame sin is typically ~3k before considering crazy, rebirthed avatar sets.

The crit from demon mastery is losing some of it's edge due to higher base crit (more dex + passives) but so is the 15% added damage for sages in relationship to higher multipliers (more dex).

@Atropath - I've no clue how you got some implication from what I've written to relate to something needing anything specific in terms of gear. I also haven't given any indication as to what my idea of endgame is in this thread. Though I'm glad it's amusing you, I fear it's all in your head.

As far as extreme poison and frenzy being spammable over several spark cycles I'd need your definition of "spammable" and perhaps "several" as your definition seem to differ from mine. Frenzy costs 75 energy and lasts 8s. Extreme Poison costs 50 and lasts 6. Using 125 energy even just once per spark makes the 3rd round impossible even with a perfect 100/100LP geared vit/mag genie, and certainly wouldn't recover after a round to be "spammed" again afterwards once let alone another 4ish times. From after your first spark to when you'd use the skills again following the 2nd spark (15s) you see a net loss of 80 energy even if using a 100mag genie (3 energy/s). Which means to successfully use both skills on the 3rd spark you'd need 185vit on the same genie which just can't happen. Just to use extreme poison on that 3rd spark shouldn't be possible as it would need 110vit. A geared (+4mag/+4vit x4) 100LP genie allots for a total of 193 stats adding vit and mag together (not including base str or dex). You would need an extra 92 stats to accomplish your claim. But then that would still just be 3 cycles, and 3 is seldom considered "several," 2 never is, and coverage of 6-8s out of every 12s is not really spamming since it's is intermittent and stops after only 2 sparks. Oh and if you were trying to relay that you would use just one or the other (go with ep it's better) then it's no different than a sage who can still spam windshield in addition to extreme poison and maintain both (ep just once per cycle, windshield up constantly) for 3+ spark cycles on a genie that can actually exist (mine's 87/100LP and can handle 3 before dropping to just using windshield). And as you've said... not much lives past 4 sparks. Hence, full aps sage sin with r93 = 3.33 APS. Comparisons that completely ignore the use of commonly available and reliable resources are merely academic and doesn't reflect real in-game play.

I can't speak for all sage sins, but I don't spend much time 3 sparked in PVP. Truth is there's not a lot of extra chi for it even with the sage bonuses if you're making full use of subsea, deep sting, maze steps and cursed jail. If I were to use these when right off of cooldown, in the span of a minute I would use up 900 chi. Assuming I use chi gain skills as often as possible, it's a gain of 910 (1010 30% of the time). In that minute I might get 200 more chi from other other skills for throatcut, powerdash, share the stealth, or toxic torrent, though out of these I find, for the most part, only throatcut finds its way into my rotation in PVP. It just isn't very efficient to use 3 spark in mass PVP since typically you lose most of your sparked time due to kiting, AD/IG, or being caught with a stun or disable of some kind. Best outcome is you kill your target, typically long before the spark is done and lose sparked time again moving to your next target. As far as stuns, with sage cursed jail only costing 1 spark every time, you can be sure I use it as much as any demon sin. You might even consider that after the upgrade, the trade off of consuming 1 less spark more than makes up for the difference of 1 second for the stun, especially once you factor in purify and faith cutting them short.

There is one thing I find I'm in total agreement with you though. Skill spamming as a demon has so much potential if they can only get away from trying to follow sage methods and really exploit what demon skills have to offer. Aside from that 1 extra second for Head Hunt, and the guaranteed sleep, both cultis handle stuns pretty much the same. If anything I think a demon's ability to control unstunned players through interrupts (knife throw, deep sting, and spell cutter all 100% interrupt, throatcut 95%) and situational buff/debuffs (ie bp, maze steps, powerdash, throatcut) would be a style more worthy of exploring when trying to differ from a sage skill spamming sin to take full advantage of demon skills.

Zsw - Dreamweaver

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

6K HP aps gear sins in CotD is the most hilarious thing ever

Yeah, i dunno why I ever bothered tbh GG
http://youtu.be/YzykdGCBCKY?t=5m38s

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

That is not a 6k hp sin

That is the sin that would be god of sins if he had my luck

Zsw - Dreamweaver

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

That is not a 6k hp sin

That is the sin that would be god of sins if he had my luck

8k, 6k, what's the difference? Both get 1 shot by 11k autos GG

Brivido - Dreamweaver

I personally like my demon sin, gives you a lot of flexibility (although I never played a sage sin)

My recommendation is the following - Granted that you want both pve and pvp, f you can afford to have 2 sets of end game gear (aps and r9rr) go demon, if you can afford only one go sage (r9rr)

Here is my experience: *This is from a semi end game perspective - r9rr daggers and aps +r9rr armor sets*

PvE - Definitely Demon
This is divided in two categories aps and dph

- APS: most bosses die in 1 spark, and demon wolf emblem is a massive boost vs sage builds (and the aps ofc), in respect to mobs between bosses, i just swap to r9rr set, pull and rift them

- DPH: with r9rr and with new primal skills, i stand at some 170 att lvl and some 800 dex, I have not run FSP where a sin stole my aggro (consistently at least), rarely I loose aggro to other players but in some occasions thats because I also subsea (demon version has lower amp than sage but it is damn long lasting), which hurts me a bit in the spark area (can still almost perma spark anyhow)

BP - once u reach end game (high hp and high m/p resistance) demon or sage bp matters little, considering that on a boss like hellfire my demon bp heals me on average of 1-2k per hit (4 hit per second) my survivability is not worse than a sage sin with sage bp if not better

Side note: although it is true that sage sins at end game can kill bosses in 1 spark too, demon will allow you to do much better on the path to get end game gear


PVP - from all I hear sage, but not sure to which extent

Main downfall of demon sins in PVP is that they go at it with APS set... as mentioned earlier if you can afford one set go sage.

Advantages of sage are:
- Higher base damage, better chi generation, tidal at 66%, 3xspark damage reduction

My perspective on these advantages as demon sin - damage increase is not game changing, its is not like demon sins cant generate chi ..., in respect to Tidal, it is not that demon sins don't have tidal, we have it at 50% (plus 16 % if i recall correctly of any incoming damage to be 1)

On the other hand, demon has a better crowd control (stuns last longer)

However, not having played sage i most probably miss a few pieces of info that are favorable to sage.

Hope this is of help

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Brivido - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I personally like my demon sin, gives you a lot of flexibility (although I never played a sage sin)

My recommendation is the following - Granted that you want both pve and pvp, f you can afford to have 2 sets of end game gear (aps and r9rr) go demon, if you can afford only one go sage (r9rr)

Here is my experience: *This is from a semi end game perspective - r9rr daggers and aps +r9rr armor sets*

PvE - Definitely Demon
This is divided in two categories aps and dph

- APS: most bosses die in 1 spark, and demon wolf emblem is a massive boost vs sage builds (and the aps ofc), in respect to mobs between bosses, i just swap to r9rr set, pull and rift them

- DPH: with r9rr and with new primal skills, i stand at some 170 att lvl and some 800 dex, I have not run FSP where a sin stole my aggro (consistently at least), rarely I loose aggro to other players but in some occasions thats because I also subsea (demon version has lower amp than sage but it is damn long lasting), which hurts me a bit in the spark area (can still almost perma spark anyhow)

BP - once u reach end game (high hp and high m/p resistance) demon or sage bp matters little, considering that on a boss like hellfire my demon bp heals me on average of 1-2k per hit (4 hit per second) my survivability is not worse than a sage sin with sage bp if not better

Side note: although it is true that sage sins at end game can kill bosses in 1 spark too, demon will allow you to do much better on the path to get end game gear


PVP - from all I hear sage, but not sure to which extent

Main downfall of demon sins in PVP is that they go at it with APS set... as mentioned earlier if you can afford one set go sage.

Advantages of sage are:
- Higher base damage, better chi generation, tidal at 66%, 3xspark damage reduction

My perspective on these advantages as demon sin - damage increase is not game changing, its is not like demon sins cant generate chi ..., in respect to Tidal, it is not that demon sins don't have tidal, we have it at 50% (plus 16 % if i recall correctly of any incoming damage to be 1)

On the other hand, demon has a better crowd control (stuns last longer)

However, not having played sage i most probably miss a few pieces of info that are favorable to sage.

Hope this is of help

Sage BP makes a big difference, dont let anyone tell you otherwise.

As for sage APS, I have played sage and demon. I prefer my sage sin. Comapared to my wife, I can do things unsparked she could only dream of. It's a matter of playstyle. I prefer hitting hard, she prefers hitting fast. She prefers just dding, I prefer doing it myself and initiating (ie being the main tank).

I do not recommend starting off with one, then switching. Why? Because as your gear progresses so will your strategy, and sage and demon require different strategies in my experience meaning. If you want to be good at the actual class, choose one, and stick with it.

Brivido - Dreamweaver

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Sage BP makes a big difference, dont let anyone tell you otherwise.

What I meant is that it becomes redundant at end game. My charm rarely ticks in PVE while I hit stuff, hence 50% more heals become redundant (as in I already heal more than bosses / mobs hi t me for).

Before Avatars and Primal I would have said yes, sage BP is major in pve, now, not so much

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

8k, 6k, what's the difference? Both get 1 shot by 11k autos GG

zsw so noob he dies through ironguard I guess

Zsw - Dreamweaver

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

zsw so noob he dies through ironguard I guess

Dying while immune is nothing new GG

http://youtu.be/HmwHxZUmEM4?t=2m53s

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Brivido - Dreamweaver wrote: »

What I meant is that it becomes redundant at end game. My charm rarely ticks in PVE while I hit stuff, hence 50% more heals become redundant (as in I already heal more than bosses / mobs hi t me for).

Before Avatars and Primal I would have said yes, sage BP is major in pve, now, not so much

Try doing a boss in non aps gear, then tell me it doesnt make a difference.