How To **** Up A Game Part 2

Auerlius - Archosaur

The video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9GEQwsHmLE


Toraah Stats:
http://oi62.tinypic.com/2z4e35l.jpg


Auerlius stats:
http://oi57.tinypic.com/2h5oh3s.jpg

Also, the stats on the right are of my friend in troll dreamchaser gear, so please ignore that.

played with an excel genie during this bout, not only did the sage focus completely negated the killing blows each time, his crits where zerked over half the time. so basically he was dealing x4 damage for most of the fight. when we spoke even he had to admit after seeing the stats that the crit zerking thing was outta hand.

now that you see the match i am willing to accept critique and comments from knowledgeable non-salty people. idc if you love your class and don't wanna see it get nerfed. be proud...but just be real as well.

PS: OPKossy.....you can disagree if you like. it is your right and please since you are more knowledgeable than i, you tell me what you see that i could or should have been done differently. in fact i welcome the opinions of all. cause this makes no sense on paper to me and the elimination kept disrupting me while 3 outta 5 hits on it would zerk/crit every time he did it.

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple

This should be titled "How to best PvP as a Cleric" and moved to the appropriate forum.

It was determined by the third page of the last thread that it didn't have anything to do with "balance" or anything being broken or "screwed up".

Viktorian - Archosaur

on wat u should have done differently.
personally i think u shoulda used more movement limiting abilities. apparently the sin status evade thing only seems to work for ~5 stuns/movement effects. also u had toraah slept u should have done more dmg before the sleep wore off.(also perhaps that immoblize/silence skill. idk the name) when u did hit him u seemed to do a good bit of dmg. maybe just capatilizing on that sleep/movement lock would have given u the win.

Fissile - Archosaur

Vik, seal of the gods adds a 90% damage reduction in addition to seal and immobilize. There are only a couple skills that are useful in that state like debuffs, arrays, and mark of weakness.

I can't really offer any advice since I am not experienced at cleric pk. I think one thing to look at might be genie setup.

As I recall Auer had expel, fortify, absolute domain, badge of courage, extreme poison (I don't remember what else). He did not have faith (which I know is extremely limiting as far as genie setup but it is extremely useful if you can spare the affinity, which is less of a problem on a 105 genie).

As for toraah, I only remember seeing him use will surge, wind shield, and extreme poison.

Eoria - Harshlands

So where's the cleric vs. archer vid?

Fissile - Archosaur

Archer wasn't available at the time. I'm happy to record more if Auerlius can get an archer to participate when I am online.

Auerlius - Archosaur

SylenThunder - Sanctuary wrote: »

This should be titled "How to best PvP as a Cleric" and moved to the appropriate forum.

It was determined by the third page of the last thread that it didn't have anything to do with "balance" or anything being broken or "screwed up".

um...the problem is the crit zerk thing, might swing and the lack of forethought used before incorporating these skills. i am using these fights as a point of reference.

beatthegame

If you're losing to lesser geared opponents consistently, you're just not very good at pvp. Some classes are also better vs others, which doesn't mean the game is broken.

Quilue - Sanctuary

For you to claim LA classes are too OP shouldn't involve you losing to LAs and that's your proof. You have to prove you lose to LA much easier than you lose to some other classes.

Show us some vids that you can't be killed by venos or wizards or even BMs for that matter but just get rolled by archers.

freygin

Aurelius' qq was pointing directly to critical rates in the previous thread, LA classes are the ones with highest critical rates, even though other classes might also gain higher critical rates via other new features from this expansion like war avatar etc, but LA classes gain the most with dex as their main damage stat.

Cawcawwww - Archosaur

Auerlius - Archosaur wrote: »

um...the problem is the crit zerk thing, might swing and the lack of forethought used before incorporating these skills. i am using these fights as a point of reference.

Zerk is a % chance as I am sure you know auer. Sometimes I'll get 3 zerks in a row sometimes I won't Zerk once in 8 hits. An OP seeker critzerks 3 in a row on you and it's gonna hurt similarly. Just lucky archers don't Zerk xD

Quilue - Sanctuary

There's no point to complaining about a particular attribute of one or two classes if you can't prove it makes the class OP, to prove any particular class is OP we go back to my previous post.

Also, since when is a class only defined by 1 attribute?

You can't watch that video and say the sin won because the sin had high crits.

Fae_Harpy - Archosaur

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

There's no point to complaining about a particular attribute of one or two classes if you can't prove it makes the class OP, to prove any particular class is OP we go back to my previous post.

Also, since when is a class only defined by 1 attribute?

You can't watch that video and say the sin won because the sin had high crits.

Well if you ever read this thread in the archer forum Heaven (Sage) vs Hell (Demon) her whole argument is basically based on the crit rate and attack speed that demons get. Are you saying that all this time that the crit rate and attack speed that archers have is not important. Than, if that's true, wouldn't sage be the best cultivation path. f:ponder

freygin

I have a sage archer and before sage quickshot gave 20% critical rate buff, I felt like my archer was really inferior compared to demon ones, everytime I met 1 on 1 with a demon archer, I lost most of the fight eventhough sometimes I had the advantage of slightly better gear, now that it gives 20% crit rate boost, it's really a game changer for sage archers, thank god they finally made that change after all those years being so underpowered b:thanks

Quilue - Sanctuary

Fae_Harpy - Archosaur wrote: »

Well if you ever read this thread in the archer forum Heaven (Sage) vs Hell (Demon) her whole argument is basically based on the crit rate and attack speed that demons get. Are you saying that all this time that the crit rate and attack speed that archers have is not important. Than, if that's true, wouldn't sage be the best cultivation path. f:ponder

What a class does and what is overpowered are two different things. One is plainly on description, the other you have to try to prove, and proof involves more than a video of a lost fight.

That's like saying archers have range therefore OP, and if I ask does range make archers OP, you'd question whether I am saying range isn't important? Did you level Winged Blessing?

Auerlius - Archosaur

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

What a class does and what is overpowered are two different things. One is plainly on description, the other you have to try to prove, and proof involves more than a video of a lost fight.

That's like saying archers have range therefore OP, and if I ask does range make archers OP, you'd question whether I am saying range isn't important? Did you level Winged Blessing?

it's funny you guys asked for a video and when i provide one it still isn't enough. i should of had the damage tracker on so you could see throughout the fight. i will try to do something for that next time. the point is this: if everything i do does crack damage [e.i. silence [crit], then stun [crit] then interrupt [crit] then elimination [crit], then a zerk for the win] it makes it very unbalanced. the more crits you have the more zerk crits you can get. after a while, the longer the fight lasts the less like i am to be able to defend effectively and keep my health up.

and yes most LA's dump into one stat: dex. this is the smartest thing to do, cause if i can do more base damage and increase the chance for me to do double and quadruple damage, then why wouldn't i? anyone playing a sin will tell you their damage has increased dramatically since reincarnation. on a level matched only by one other class, archers.

Cawcawwww - Archosaur wrote: »

Zerk is a % chance as I am sure you know auer. Sometimes I'll get 3 zerks in a row sometimes I won't Zerk once in 8 hits. An OP seeker critz erks 3 in a row on you and it's gonna hurt similarly. Just lucky archers don't Zerk xD

cawcaw think about this: but a seeker isn't gonna crit zerk constantly either, cause they have to split points between dex and str. so they are not as likely to get crack damage and consistent crits all the time. they have to make a choice like the rest of us...either massive base damage and less focus on crits, a balance beteween the 2 or high crits and lower base damage.

Fae_Harpy - Archosaur wrote: »

Well if you ever read this thread in the archer forum Heaven (Sage) vs Hell (Demon) her whole argument is basically based on the crit rate and attack speed that demons get. Are you saying that all this time that the crit rate and attack speed that archers have is not important. Than, if that's true, wouldn't sage be the best cultivation path. f:ponder

since reincarnation

Fae_Harpy - Archosaur

PWI Forum Right Now

I backed you all into a corner right now. If you keep arguing that Auerlius is wrong and that the crit and attack does not play a major role in PK you have nullified the age old debate between sage Vs demon archer. Or you could keep the debate alive, the choice is yours on which you want to do.

But if you are a demon archer disagreeing with Auerlius, then you are a hypocrite. Seriously stop and read what he is saying, then go to the archer forum. Everything he is saying is what demon archers say is the whole advantage of choosing that path.

Now that you can get about 900 dex on an archer, instead of shooting arrows, we are shooting semi trucks. Last NW I was one shotting people in G16 heavy armor with my physical attacks. At one point I did a 15k crit on a g16 seeker. That was a normal attack, no skill, just 1 arrow. If I'm doing that much damage on someone in HA, image what I'm doing to robes.

Desdi - Sanctuary

Yeah Archers can get 900 Dex but AA classes can get 1000 magic and hit even harder too, especially since caster classes get their damage multiplier every 100 points whilst the others get it every 150 points if I have understood correctly.
Most casters can also hit the % cap on physical defence with their self buffs plus stacked buffs plus passives etc. etc.

This isn't really that Archers and Assassins are getting OP, everyone is getting OP. Actually, people were OP already, they are just getting even more OP.

For the record, apparently my post was misunderstood. I have no interest in "proving Auerlius fails at PK" or any sort of that, I don't even care he's not on my server. I suggested that he might either have lack skill, experience or gear based on the information he initially gave, which wasn't much, because his first post sounded like the typical QQ we often get on the forums.
Although I do find it weird a Cleric having major issues vs. an Archer if the gear really is of similar level.

Fissile - Archosaur

Maybe with sage bell AND the greater phy buff from faction base casters would hit the defense cap. Unless they shard garnets instead of jades or something like that. More likely they are going to top out at around 35k with buffs which is right where the old damage cap (90%) was.

With full buffs I have just over 36k physical defense (only 67 defense levels since I am still trying to round up DoDs for jades). It is not uncommon for endgame archers to hit me for more than 10k on crits. I do about the same damage crits to similar geared archers and sins with full buffs (using undine strike). But they also have 3x the crit rate and around 20% more HP.

I'm not greatly concerned with sins due to the fact that their skills are strongly slanted towards 1v1 in melee range which is a significant weakness in a tw or nw setting. Archers on the other hand have more range than all but a handful of caster skills and twice the base attack of sins (every hit is basically on par with a knife throw that zerks with the added bonus of a chance to purge). If you are a caster you are pretty much boned unless you are inside their reduced damage range and 1v1 it is pretty damn hard to get and stay there unless you have extremely high defenses.

I'm not arguing that it is unfair or OP. That's just the way it is. An archer with a +12 bow and no other refines should easily be able to kill just about anyone with +8-10 armor and ornaments and grade 7-8 shards without them ever even getting close enough to attack.

Auerlius - Archosaur

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

Yeah Archers can get 900 Dex but AA classes can get 1000 magic and hit even harder too, especially since caster classes get their damage multiplier every 100 points whilst the others get it every 150 points if I have understood correctly.
Most casters can also hit the % cap on physical defence with their self buffs plus stacked buffs plus passives etc. etc.

This isn't really that Archers and Assassins are getting OP, everyone is getting OP. Actually, people were OP already, they are just getting even more OP.

For the record, apparently my post was misunderstood. I have no interest in "proving Auerlius fails at PK" or any sort of that, I don't even care he's not on my server. I suggested that he might either have lack skill, experience or gear based on the information he initially gave, which wasn't much, because his first post sounded like the typical QQ we often get on the forums.
Although I do find it weird a Cleric having major issues vs. an Archer if the gear really is of similar level.

what you like many others seem to forget is this: yes we get a damage multiplier for every 100 points, and phys dd gets it for every 150. however is every hit is a crit, then it's like your getting a damage multiplier for every 75 points. before you say casters get crits too consider this, a caster critting is no where near as lethal as zerk crit or purge-> crit. on top of that for every one attack a caster gets and archer or sin will have 3-4. does that sound balanced to you?

Quilue - Sanctuary

Auerlius - Archosaur wrote: »

it's funny you guys asked for a video and when i provide one it still isn't enough. i should of had the damage tracker on so you could see throughout the fight. i will try to do something for that next time. the point is this: if everything i do does crack damage [e.i. silence [crit], then stun [crit] then interrupt [crit] then elimination [crit], then a zerk for the win] it makes it very unbalanced. the more crits you have the more zerk crits you can get. after a while, the longer the fight lasts the less like i am to be able to defend effectively and keep my health up.

and yes most LA's dump into one stat: dex. this is the smartest thing to do, cause if i can do more base damage and increase the chance for me to do double and quadruple damage, then why wouldn't i? anyone playing a sin will tell you their damage has increased dramatically since reincarnation. on a level matched only by one other class, archers.

That's stupid, any class twice reincarnated can tell you their damage increased dramatically unless they statted all vit or something.

There are two ways to approach balance discussion, one by gathering consensus from experienced PKers who participate in endgame PvP, and the other by trying to prove it yourself. You have chosen to ignore even other clerics who insist that archers are easy to kill, and now you think a single video is supposed to prove crit rate of LA makes both classes OP.

Fissile - Archosaur wrote: »

Maybe with sage bell AND the greater phy buff from faction base casters would hit the defense cap. Unless they shard garnets instead of jades or something like that. More likely they are going to top out at around 35k with buffs which is right where the old damage cap (90%) was.

With full buffs I have just over 36k physical defense (only 67 defense levels since I am still trying to round up DoDs for jades). It is not uncommon for endgame archers to hit me for more than 10k on crits. I do about the same damage crits to similar geared archers and sins with full buffs (using undine strike). But they also have 3x the crit rate and around 20% more HP.

I'm not greatly concerned with sins due to the fact that their skills are strongly slanted towards 1v1 in melee range which is a significant weakness in a tw or nw setting. Archers on the other hand have more range than all but a handful of caster skills and twice the base attack of sins (every hit is basically on par with a knife throw that zerks with the added bonus of a chance to purge). If you are a caster you are pretty much boned unless you are inside their reduced damage range and 1v1 it is pretty damn hard to get and stay there unless you have extremely high defenses.

I'm not arguing that it is unfair or OP. That's just the way it is. An archer with a +12 bow and no other refines should easily be able to kill just about anyone with +8-10 armor and ornaments and grade 7-8 shards without them ever even getting close enough to attack.

I really doubt that you do the same damage to similarly geared archers (ie: unfinished shards) as they do to you, seeing as they don't have 36k mdef buffed.

Auerlius - Archosaur

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

That's stupid, any class twice reincarnated can tell you their damage increased dramatically unless they statted all vit or something.

There are two ways to approach balance discussion, one by gathering consensus from experienced PKers who participate in endgame PvP, and the other by trying to prove it yourself. You have chosen to ignore even other clerics who insist that archers are easy to kill, and now you think a single video is supposed to prove crit rate of LA makes both classes OP.

i am twice reincarnated as well, look at the stats. then look at the vid to see how many time i hit him vs how many hits i receive. i have not chosen to ignore anyone. i have tried most if not all the things that were suggested to me in that fight. not alot of people pk with a cleric so the responses have been limited. so what else should i do now? should i start another thread? let's bounce some ideas and i will make it happen as best i can.

freygin

Let's see how much damage would Auerlius take from a normal attack from Toraah.

Here's the needed variables from Toraah :
Base Damage : 20994 - 24269
Attack Level : 162 (127 + 35, Toraah said 35 was not added by the time the SS was made, so it's 162)
Critical Damage : 220% from Sage Assassin.

The needed variables from Auerlius gear to reduce damage :
Physical Defense : 16123 ( equals to 79.431% reduction)
Defense Level : 90
Hp : 14855

Since PvP damage is 25% from char stat, 20994-24269 would be 5248.5 - 6067.25
Reduced by Auerlius' Defense 79.431% = 1079.56 - 1247.97
Multiplied by A-D = 1857 - 2147 Normal Damage
Critical Damage with sage wolf emblem is * 220% = 4085 - 4722
Zerk Crit = 8170 - 9445

Dunno how spirit affects damage output, even without that the zerk crit damage is already impressive, and that's only normal attack, skill damage is definitely higher than that since there are additions from Gear Damage and Constant Skill Damage.

3 consecutive zerk crit coming from Toraah will definitely kill Auerlius, or two after a charm tick.

Auerlius - Archosaur

freygin wrote: »

Let's see how much damage would Auerlius take from a normal attack from Toraah.

Here's the needed variables from Toraah :
Base Damage : 20994 - 24269
Attack Level : 162 (127 + 35, Toraah said 35 was not added by the time the SS was made, so it's 162)
Critical Damage : 220% from Sage Assassin.

The needed variables from Auerlius gear to reduce damage :
Physical Defense : 16123 ( equals to 79.431% reduction)
Defense Level : 90
Hp : 14855

Since PvP damage is 25% from char stat, 20994-24269 would be 5248.5 - 6067.25
Reduced by Auerlius' Defense 79.431% = 1079.56 - 1247.97
Multiplied by A-D = 1857 - 2147 Normal Damage
Critical Damage with sage wolf emblem is * 220% = 4085 - 4722
Zerk Crit = 8170 - 9445

Dunno how spirit affects damage output, even without that the zerk crit damage is already impressive, and that's only normal attack, skill damage is definitely higher than that since there are additions from Gear Damage and Constant Skill Damage.

3 consecutive zerk crit coming from Toraah will definitely kill Auerlius, or two after a charm tick.

ty i have been want to calc the damage but an independent party doing makes less likely my answers will be consider biased. hopefuly this helps towards explaining my problem.

freygin

Btw have you gotten cleric's new skill, the Great Cyclone with no cooldown when in ultraviolet dance ? It should help cleric having more dps.

Auerlius - Archosaur

freygin wrote: »

Btw have you gotten cleric's new skill, the Great Cyclone with no cooldown when in ultraviolet dance ? It should help cleric having more dps.

working towards it now. and the uninterruptible heal...though honestly if it was like a mini spark immunity thing that would be cool. finally clerics would have something worth complaining about lol.

freygin

With an uniterruptible heal that even stun or silence can't stop, cleric would be a god lol.

With crits from passive , stats, etc, sure LA will have an advantage in dealing extra damage, but I think every class has a boost too. That is the only new skill that would help cleric in dealing damage, the others are just support. So consider having that new skill first and have a rematch after that and see if it would help in cleric pvp.

Auerlius - Archosaur

freygin wrote: »

With an uniterruptible heal that even stun or silence can't stop, cleric would be a god lol.

With crits from passive , stats, etc, sure LA will have an advantage in dealing extra damage, but I think every class has a boost too. That is the only new skill that would help cleric in dealing damage, the others are just support. So consider having that new skill first and have a rematch after that and see if it would help in cleric pvp.

will do and i'll post.

Man - Raging Tide

Buffs were not even, sin had cleric buffs, cleric was only self buffed. Sin vs cleric is pretty much a skill based match up + genie + luck.

In this video its really hard to tell whats going on, what skills hit and what miss, but both cleric and asssassin are imba in 1 vs 1's.

with the new tome, and new passive skills arcane gain more critical strike, crit rate increase will help a 10% crit rate wizard much more than a 70% crit rate sin or archer.

Toraah - Archosaur

Man - Raging Tide wrote: »

Buffs were not even, sin had cleric buffs, cleric was only self buffed. Sin vs cleric is pretty much a skill based match up + genie + luck.

In this video its really hard to tell whats going on, what skills hit and what miss, but both cleric and asssassin are imba in 1 vs 1's.

with the new tome, and new passive skills arcane gain more critical strike, crit rate increase will help a 10% crit rate wizard much more than a 70% crit rate sin or archer.

cleric buffs were given to compensate for the fact he had +12 jades and I have +11 with immac cits. I argued against it for the video but he insisted to "balance it out"

freygin

Magic shell is the only buff for magic defense, while for physical defense there are Vanguard and Aura of the Golden Bell, and cleric was buffed with BM's too, so it should be even.