Chi gain: Sage and Demon
Desdi - Sanctuary
Posts: 8,680 Arc User
Well... this is a series of tests and observations I did for my own personal reference out of curiosity but maybe other people are interested? I thought I might as well post it here instead of keeping it for myself.
The tests were an overall observation of the chi gain for Sage Venomancers and Demon Venomancers in different scenarios. Please note that these tests are not done through maths/formulas and whatnot so the numbers aren't 100% accurate but I've just done multiple tests with the skills and made my own calculations so they are close to reality I believe (also formulas often tend to depict ideal/certain scenarios which may not fully reflect reality).
All the test were done within the 30 second time frame thus all the tests show the Venomancers' chi gain under 30 seconds. Things may and will vary if the time frame is increased but this leads to way too many variables so I picked a single example.
Fox Form attacks and Demons
I initially observed that the Fox Form attack skills which generate Chi offer 40 Chi in total in a single rotation. Once you get the Demon mergers for these skills the total amount of chi they offer in a single rotation is also 40 Chi.
Befuddling Mist 10 Chi (3 sec cooldown) Applies to Sage too.
Leech 15 Chi (6 sec cooldown) Applies to Sage too.
Consume Spirit 15 Chi (9 sec cooldown) Applies to Sage too.
Grudge Strike 20 Chi (3 sec cooldown) Only applies to Demon.
Dark Taboo 20 Chi (6 sec cooldown) Only applies to Demon.
In 30 seconds I was able to use approximately 12 Fox Form attacks. Right now I only have have Grudge Strike so I recreated the scenes and did my calculations; the results were the following:
~Rotating through Befuddling Mist, Leech and Consume Spirit in 30 seconds (total of 12 skills) the total Chi gain was 140 Chi.
~Rotating through Grudge Strike, Leech and Consume Spirit in 30 seconds (total of 12 skills) the total Chi gain was 195 Chi.
~Rotating through Befuddling Mist and Leech in 30 seconds (total of 12 skills) the total Chi gain was 130 Chi.
~Rotating through Grudge Strike and Leech in 30 seconds (total of 12 skills) the total Chi gain was 200 Chi.
~Rotating through Grudge Strike and Dark Taboo in 30 seconds (total of 12 skills) the total Chi gain was 220 Chi.
Keep in mind that the way the cooldowns of the skills are will result in the fox auto-attacking a few times too so the actual chi gain is a little higher than the numbers above, albeit the difference is very small. Also remember that these Fox Form skills require a target (monster, NPC or player).
Now there's another skill to consider: Demon Crush Vigor which gives 10 chi and has a 50% chance to give 100 Chi (one spark). Crush Vigor has a cooldown of 30 seconds so in my tests it could only be used once. This is the same scenario as above but with Crush Vigor proc'ing.
~Rotating through Befuddling Mist, Leech and Consume Spirit in 30 seconds (total of 12 skills) and Crush Vigor the total Chi gain was 250 Chi.
~Rotating through Grudge Strike, Leech and Consume Spirit in 30 seconds (total of 12 skills) and Crush Vigor the total Chi gain was 305 Chi.
~Rotating through Befuddling Mist and Leech in 30 seconds (total of 12 skills) and Crush Vigor the total Chi gain was 240 Chi.
~Rotating through Grudge Strike and Leech in 30 seconds (total of 12 skills) and Crush Vigor the total Chi gain was 310 Chi.
~Rotating through Grudge Strike and Dark Taboo in 30 seconds (total of 12 skills) and Crush Vigor the total Chi gain was 330 Chi. At 31 seconds, using Crush Vigor a second time the chi gain was 430 Chi (essentially full).
Fox Form and Sages
In a similar situation the Sage Venomancer will utilize their ability to build chi via swapping forms. In addition they have Master Li's technique and since they happen to be in human form too, they'll throw in Lending Hand as well.
Within 30 seconds a Sage Venomancer can swap forms (Fox Form 35 Chi) approximately 5 times, use Lending Hand (100 Chi if it procs / 25% proc rate) 2 times and use Master Li's Technique (50 Chi) one time.
~Rotating through those skills in 30 seconds the total Chi gain was 225 Chi.
~Rotating through those skills in 30 seconds with Lending Hand proc once the total Chi was gain 325 Chi.
~Rotating through those skills in 30 seconds with Lending Hand proc twice the total Chi was gain 425 Chi (well pretty much full, can't go beyond 399).
Final comments
New Horizons has made Demon's chi building more effective than before whilst it didn't give it any unfair edge over Sage. Remember that Demons need a target while Sages can pop chi out of nowhere, that being the main difference.
This doesn't apply to Demons that aren't on a PvP server and/or aren't in PK mode. Being able to hit NPCs for chi makes a big difference otherwise you have to rely on pet healing and genie skills like Cloud Eruption. You can, however, start fights with Crush Vigor before Amplify Damage. Sages would usually open with Soul Degeneration and players usually aren't fully ready to DD the boss (sparking does take a couple of seconds). You can also throw in Grudge Strike while waiting for your Fox Form's cooldown.
Human Form Sages and Demons
Note that this is a PvE scenario such as fighting a boss. Standing there trying to DD a player in PvP is obviously not going to work!
~For Demons I did a 30 second test of rotating through Venomous Scarab (10 Chi, 1 sec cooldown), Lucky Scarab (15 Chi, 10 sec cooldown) and Noxious Gas (20 Chi, 5 sec cooldown). Cooldown values are reduced by 2 seconds and 1 second respectively for Demons. I was able to land approximately 12 attacks with -39% channeling (standard chan of gear without special -chan neck/belt/cape). Rotating through those skills the total Chi gain was 170 Chi.
~Rotating through those skills along with Blazing Scarab, Mauntille was able to land approximately 13 attacks with -39% channeling and the total Chi gain was 195 Chi. The test has some variations, see here.
~For Sages I did a 30 second test of spamming Venomous Scarab (10 Chi, 1 sec cooldown) which has a 20% chance to proc for an additional 30 Chi. I was able to land approximately 14 attacks with -39% channeling. Spamming that skill the total Chi gain was 140 Chi.
~Due to the nature of the skill the overall Chi gain will vary but let's take two cases. If Venomous Scarab procs 3 times, the total amount of Chi gain is 230 Chi in 30 seconds. If Venomous Scarab procs 5 times, the total amount of Chi gain is 290 Chi in 30 seconds.
~I didn't test throwing in Noxious Gas but Venomous Scarab is pretty much enough for building chi on bosses and the like. There's also Master Li's Technique to throw in.
~For both Demons and Sages you can gain chi through healing a pet. Sages don't really need this so it's mostly a thing for Demons. The tests I did were with a standard of -39% channeling for 30 seconds. I didn't count how many Heal Pet I used because I couldn't keep track. The total Chi gain was 104 Chi.
Final comments
In PvE pure DD scenarios Sages have the upper hand. They can build chi faster and consequently Triple Spark more often for better overall DPS although Venomancers are often needed to pass Chi to team mates and such.
If I'm a big DD for my squad, as a Demon, I'll usually use Cloud Eruption from genie to be able to build chi faster and Triple Spark more. If I'm the only Venomancer in squad I still need to drop in Fox Form for debuffs so I make use of Crush Vigor/Grudge Strike. If you have learnt Redstone Venomworm you won't have big needs of using Myriad Rainbow anymore (still recommended though) unless the squad is magic DD heavy and you want the magic break. If Cleric is present, they might use their own debuffs instead though.
Again, there are variations to this such as what kind of bosses you're fighting, if you have to AOE a lot or not, squad set up and a lot more.
Different moments, different advantages
~Moments Demons have the advantage:
When the Venomancer has to stay in Fox Form a lot, usually in group PvP, Demons have the advantage because their best chi building skills are in Fox Form. Crush Vigor is a debuff you'll want to use on the enemies anyway so you can build chi with it.
Grudge Strike now actually offers a reason to be used; 125% attack rate debuff and a bonus of 70% accuracy debuff and 35% channeling debuff. You might as well throw it around on some Archer or something.
When Sages are unable to swap Fox Forms a lot, their chi management is hindered a little. They have Master Li's technique but it's certainly not as good as Demon's advantage (unless the Demon Venomancer has such a bad day that Crush Vigor refuses to proc.. ).
~Moments Sage have the advantage:
When the Venomancer is free to swap forms a lot, their chi can't be matched. This occurs a lot in situations such as 1v1s (you have to go human if you want to actually kill that person) or just reviving after a death in TW.
Other variations do exist but I'm only picking a few distinct examples.
Personal view
Sages have easy, pretty fast, chi building and chi management. It's trickier for Demons and require you taking advantage of every chance you get but it's not as bad as people might think.
Sages can mostly build chi faster even in PvP (with exceptions) but they lack other goodies Demons have such as a wood debuff or Parasitic Nova's debuff so I guess it kinda evens out.
An additional note to the Fox Form upgrade that happened in Spring 2013 (I hope I got the time right). The main ruckus was about giving Sages something really good while giving Demons something really crappy. I'd guess some Demons might be jealous of Sage's chi gain though I personally got upset over the fact that Demons got a crappy buff that's pretty much useless.
I do, personally, feel that losing Blazing Scarab with the Redstone merger hurt Demon's chi in human and I'd have preferred if they had given them another way of getting chi or increasing the chi gain of another human form skill.
Remember to manage your chi!
For Demons... Crush Vigor, Grudge Strike, Dark Taboo, Lending Hand, Heal Pet. Think smart, use your surroundings, make use of your chances, manage your chi well. Chi management video.
For Sages... swap forms at any given chance, Lending Hand, Master Li's technique. Think smart, make use of your chances, manage your chi well..and make use of that chi, don't just let it pile up.
The tests were an overall observation of the chi gain for Sage Venomancers and Demon Venomancers in different scenarios. Please note that these tests are not done through maths/formulas and whatnot so the numbers aren't 100% accurate but I've just done multiple tests with the skills and made my own calculations so they are close to reality I believe (also formulas often tend to depict ideal/certain scenarios which may not fully reflect reality).
All the test were done within the 30 second time frame thus all the tests show the Venomancers' chi gain under 30 seconds. Things may and will vary if the time frame is increased but this leads to way too many variables so I picked a single example.
Fox Form attacks and Demons
I initially observed that the Fox Form attack skills which generate Chi offer 40 Chi in total in a single rotation. Once you get the Demon mergers for these skills the total amount of chi they offer in a single rotation is also 40 Chi.
Befuddling Mist 10 Chi (3 sec cooldown) Applies to Sage too.
Leech 15 Chi (6 sec cooldown) Applies to Sage too.
Consume Spirit 15 Chi (9 sec cooldown) Applies to Sage too.
Grudge Strike 20 Chi (3 sec cooldown) Only applies to Demon.
Dark Taboo 20 Chi (6 sec cooldown) Only applies to Demon.
In 30 seconds I was able to use approximately 12 Fox Form attacks. Right now I only have have Grudge Strike so I recreated the scenes and did my calculations; the results were the following:
~Rotating through Befuddling Mist, Leech and Consume Spirit in 30 seconds (total of 12 skills) the total Chi gain was 140 Chi.
~Rotating through Grudge Strike, Leech and Consume Spirit in 30 seconds (total of 12 skills) the total Chi gain was 195 Chi.
~Rotating through Befuddling Mist and Leech in 30 seconds (total of 12 skills) the total Chi gain was 130 Chi.
~Rotating through Grudge Strike and Leech in 30 seconds (total of 12 skills) the total Chi gain was 200 Chi.
~Rotating through Grudge Strike and Dark Taboo in 30 seconds (total of 12 skills) the total Chi gain was 220 Chi.
Keep in mind that the way the cooldowns of the skills are will result in the fox auto-attacking a few times too so the actual chi gain is a little higher than the numbers above, albeit the difference is very small. Also remember that these Fox Form skills require a target (monster, NPC or player).
Now there's another skill to consider: Demon Crush Vigor which gives 10 chi and has a 50% chance to give 100 Chi (one spark). Crush Vigor has a cooldown of 30 seconds so in my tests it could only be used once. This is the same scenario as above but with Crush Vigor proc'ing.
~Rotating through Befuddling Mist, Leech and Consume Spirit in 30 seconds (total of 12 skills) and Crush Vigor the total Chi gain was 250 Chi.
~Rotating through Grudge Strike, Leech and Consume Spirit in 30 seconds (total of 12 skills) and Crush Vigor the total Chi gain was 305 Chi.
~Rotating through Befuddling Mist and Leech in 30 seconds (total of 12 skills) and Crush Vigor the total Chi gain was 240 Chi.
~Rotating through Grudge Strike and Leech in 30 seconds (total of 12 skills) and Crush Vigor the total Chi gain was 310 Chi.
~Rotating through Grudge Strike and Dark Taboo in 30 seconds (total of 12 skills) and Crush Vigor the total Chi gain was 330 Chi. At 31 seconds, using Crush Vigor a second time the chi gain was 430 Chi (essentially full).
Fox Form and Sages
In a similar situation the Sage Venomancer will utilize their ability to build chi via swapping forms. In addition they have Master Li's technique and since they happen to be in human form too, they'll throw in Lending Hand as well.
Within 30 seconds a Sage Venomancer can swap forms (Fox Form 35 Chi) approximately 5 times, use Lending Hand (100 Chi if it procs / 25% proc rate) 2 times and use Master Li's Technique (50 Chi) one time.
~Rotating through those skills in 30 seconds the total Chi gain was 225 Chi.
~Rotating through those skills in 30 seconds with Lending Hand proc once the total Chi was gain 325 Chi.
~Rotating through those skills in 30 seconds with Lending Hand proc twice the total Chi was gain 425 Chi (well pretty much full, can't go beyond 399).
Final comments
New Horizons has made Demon's chi building more effective than before whilst it didn't give it any unfair edge over Sage. Remember that Demons need a target while Sages can pop chi out of nowhere, that being the main difference.
This doesn't apply to Demons that aren't on a PvP server and/or aren't in PK mode. Being able to hit NPCs for chi makes a big difference otherwise you have to rely on pet healing and genie skills like Cloud Eruption. You can, however, start fights with Crush Vigor before Amplify Damage. Sages would usually open with Soul Degeneration and players usually aren't fully ready to DD the boss (sparking does take a couple of seconds). You can also throw in Grudge Strike while waiting for your Fox Form's cooldown.
Human Form Sages and Demons
Note that this is a PvE scenario such as fighting a boss. Standing there trying to DD a player in PvP is obviously not going to work!
~For Demons I did a 30 second test of rotating through Venomous Scarab (10 Chi, 1 sec cooldown), Lucky Scarab (15 Chi, 10 sec cooldown) and Noxious Gas (20 Chi, 5 sec cooldown). Cooldown values are reduced by 2 seconds and 1 second respectively for Demons. I was able to land approximately 12 attacks with -39% channeling (standard chan of gear without special -chan neck/belt/cape). Rotating through those skills the total Chi gain was 170 Chi.
~Rotating through those skills along with Blazing Scarab, Mauntille was able to land approximately 13 attacks with -39% channeling and the total Chi gain was 195 Chi. The test has some variations, see here.
~For Sages I did a 30 second test of spamming Venomous Scarab (10 Chi, 1 sec cooldown) which has a 20% chance to proc for an additional 30 Chi. I was able to land approximately 14 attacks with -39% channeling. Spamming that skill the total Chi gain was 140 Chi.
~Due to the nature of the skill the overall Chi gain will vary but let's take two cases. If Venomous Scarab procs 3 times, the total amount of Chi gain is 230 Chi in 30 seconds. If Venomous Scarab procs 5 times, the total amount of Chi gain is 290 Chi in 30 seconds.
~I didn't test throwing in Noxious Gas but Venomous Scarab is pretty much enough for building chi on bosses and the like. There's also Master Li's Technique to throw in.
~For both Demons and Sages you can gain chi through healing a pet. Sages don't really need this so it's mostly a thing for Demons. The tests I did were with a standard of -39% channeling for 30 seconds. I didn't count how many Heal Pet I used because I couldn't keep track. The total Chi gain was 104 Chi.
Final comments
In PvE pure DD scenarios Sages have the upper hand. They can build chi faster and consequently Triple Spark more often for better overall DPS although Venomancers are often needed to pass Chi to team mates and such.
If I'm a big DD for my squad, as a Demon, I'll usually use Cloud Eruption from genie to be able to build chi faster and Triple Spark more. If I'm the only Venomancer in squad I still need to drop in Fox Form for debuffs so I make use of Crush Vigor/Grudge Strike. If you have learnt Redstone Venomworm you won't have big needs of using Myriad Rainbow anymore (still recommended though) unless the squad is magic DD heavy and you want the magic break. If Cleric is present, they might use their own debuffs instead though.
Again, there are variations to this such as what kind of bosses you're fighting, if you have to AOE a lot or not, squad set up and a lot more.
Different moments, different advantages
~Moments Demons have the advantage:
When the Venomancer has to stay in Fox Form a lot, usually in group PvP, Demons have the advantage because their best chi building skills are in Fox Form. Crush Vigor is a debuff you'll want to use on the enemies anyway so you can build chi with it.
Grudge Strike now actually offers a reason to be used; 125% attack rate debuff and a bonus of 70% accuracy debuff and 35% channeling debuff. You might as well throw it around on some Archer or something.
When Sages are unable to swap Fox Forms a lot, their chi management is hindered a little. They have Master Li's technique but it's certainly not as good as Demon's advantage (unless the Demon Venomancer has such a bad day that Crush Vigor refuses to proc.. ).
~Moments Sage have the advantage:
When the Venomancer is free to swap forms a lot, their chi can't be matched. This occurs a lot in situations such as 1v1s (you have to go human if you want to actually kill that person) or just reviving after a death in TW.
Other variations do exist but I'm only picking a few distinct examples.
Personal view
Sages have easy, pretty fast, chi building and chi management. It's trickier for Demons and require you taking advantage of every chance you get but it's not as bad as people might think.
Sages can mostly build chi faster even in PvP (with exceptions) but they lack other goodies Demons have such as a wood debuff or Parasitic Nova's debuff so I guess it kinda evens out.
An additional note to the Fox Form upgrade that happened in Spring 2013 (I hope I got the time right). The main ruckus was about giving Sages something really good while giving Demons something really crappy. I'd guess some Demons might be jealous of Sage's chi gain though I personally got upset over the fact that Demons got a crappy buff that's pretty much useless.
I do, personally, feel that losing Blazing Scarab with the Redstone merger hurt Demon's chi in human and I'd have preferred if they had given them another way of getting chi or increasing the chi gain of another human form skill.
Remember to manage your chi!
For Demons... Crush Vigor, Grudge Strike, Dark Taboo, Lending Hand, Heal Pet. Think smart, use your surroundings, make use of your chances, manage your chi well. Chi management video.
For Sages... swap forms at any given chance, Lending Hand, Master Li's technique. Think smart, make use of your chances, manage your chi well..and make use of that chi, don't just let it pile up.
[SIGPIC]http://i.imgur.com/MtwcqjL.png[/SIGPIC]
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![http://i.imgur.com/MtwcqjL.png[/SIGPIC]](http://i.imgur.com/MtwcqjL.png[/SIGPIC]){kind=link}
★ Venomancer videos - tinyurl.com/k6ppkw4 ★ Desdi - Demon ♪ Wyvelin - Sage ★
Post edited by Desdi - Sanctuary on
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Comments
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just gave up cloud eruption, so this was a useful thing to read through ^^[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
| Signature made by Fishy!~ | Semiretired |0 -
Desdi#&$^@! b:kissI haven't posted on my main because I can't decide on a 105 Venomancer forum avatar.b:cute
youtube.com/user/DietSnappleRaspberry0 -
Since I haven't gotten around to reawakening my veno yet, I thought I'd fill in a couple gaps for you in case you wanted to use them in your comparisons...Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »
~For Demons I did a 30 second test of rotating through Venomous Scarab (10 Chi, 1 sec cooldown), Lucky Scarab (15 Chi, 10 sec cooldown) and Noxious Gas (20 Chi, 5 sec cooldown). Cooldown values are reduced by 2 seconds and 1 second respectively for Demons. I was able to land approximately 12 attacks with -39% channeling (standard chan of gear without special -chan neck/belt/cape). Rotating through those skills the total Chi gain was 170 Chi.
~No Blazing Scarab anymore to test
I repeated this test 10 times (attempting to get something consistent) but with looping in Blazing Scarab and using a total of -39% channel. Due to variances in ping and graphical lag, I could sometimes complete a 14th attack and sometimes only get in 13 attacks. Oddly enough, this was split evenly down the middle. To normalize this against your own tests, my ping was somewhere in the neighborhood of 240ms while testing.
When completing 13 attacks, I was able to generate a total of 195 chi.
When completing 14 attacks, I was able to generate a total of 205 chi. (The last attack always worked out to be Lucky Scarab.)
Unfortunately, this is only an option if you decide to not get the merged skill, so YMMV.
All this aside, nice comparison. I'll add this to the Useful Threads list.0 -
PanboyAir - Sanctuary wrote: »Desdi#&$^@! b:kiss
No. f:angryMauntille - Heavens Tear wrote: »Since I haven't gotten around to reawakening my veno yet, I thought I'd fill in a couple gaps for you in case you wanted to use them in your comparisons...
I repeated this test 10 times (attempting to get something consistent) but with looping in Blazing Scarab and using a total of -39% channel. Due to variances in ping and graphical lag, I could sometimes complete a 14th attack and sometimes only get in 13 attacks. Oddly enough, this was split evenly down the middle. To normalize this against your own tests, my ping was somewhere in the neighborhood of 240ms while testing.
When completing 13 attacks, I was able to generate a total of 195 chi.
When completing 14 attacks, I was able to generate a total of 205 chi. (The last attack always worked out to be Lucky Scarab.)
Unfortunately, this is only an option if you decide to not get the merged skill, so YMMV.
Thanks a lot f:cute I'll add it up.[SIGPIC]http://i.imgur.com/MtwcqjL.png[/SIGPIC]
★ Venomancer videos - tinyurl.com/k6ppkw4 ★ Desdi - Demon ♪ Wyvelin - Sage ★0 -
Great test...i would like to add sage nova uses 1spark 50% of the time.
Demon lending hand can hive a spark too*couldnt find it* but 5% lower than sage.0 -
X_volcano_y - Harshlands wrote: »Great test...i would like to add sage nova uses 1spark 50% of the time.
Demon lending hand can hive a spark too*couldnt find it* but 5% lower than sage.
Demon Venomancers are less likely to use Lending Hand when sticking to Fox Form to build chi which is more effective than switching back to human for the chance of Lending Hand. Thus I didn't include it but I do mention it at the last part.
Likewise, Sages are less likely to use Parasitic Nova in a situation they want to maximise their DPS; spamming Venomous Scarab for quick chi and Triple Sparking is more effective.
The tests were done for a 30 second time frame chi building in different situations. Things in the middle of PvP are a little different and different PvE situations such as Delta that requires lots of AOE offer different variations. Then there's the chi building comparison of 1 minute time frame and so on. In the end it leads to way too many different situations so I decided to stick to a few simple ones.[SIGPIC]http://i.imgur.com/MtwcqjL.png[/SIGPIC]
★ Venomancer videos - tinyurl.com/k6ppkw4 ★ Desdi - Demon ♪ Wyvelin - Sage ★0 -
Changed colours to something more read-able.
I also put a link of a video I uploaded a few days ago. I tried to make a video to show some situations where a Demon Venomancer could/should take advantage of to build chi. I think the video could have been better but nonetheless it might offer some pointers to people and motivate them to be more aware of their surroundings as to build chi better.[SIGPIC]http://i.imgur.com/MtwcqjL.png[/SIGPIC]
★ Venomancer videos - tinyurl.com/k6ppkw4 ★ Desdi - Demon ♪ Wyvelin - Sage ★0
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