Do wizards truly have that low of HP/defence?

Foxyas - Dreamweaver

Made a PWCalc of a potential demon wizard, and as I'm making my G16 gear atm, it will all be +3, minus the weapon which will be +10 and eventually/slowly refine the gear up to much better refines 1 by 1. But even putting all armor at +6 I only have 5k hp base. Are wizards really THAT strong in damage that their HP must be so low? And pdef as well even with demon barrier?

http://pwcalc.com/d596e49b2f514181

In time I'll also get Antiquity rings with +250 pdef, but that's a far away. The only thing I have made atm is weapon with set stats, armor in progress and stats yet to be determined.

Shardings will be morai +65 HP shards.

Will I really have to use a O malleys just to survive dungeons like FSP?

Other notes:

I will also have demon TDB, to possibly heal me for 500HP every 3 seconds to add to survival.

Zoldi - Morai

Wizards are typically an Arcane class and refine on arcane armors gives less HP than on light or heavy armors. This is not specific to wizard though and really not something new.

It seems that lots of people complain there are not enough barbs to go in FSP so it could be an option if you want to roll a class with more HP.

Dragslave - Dreamweaver

The problem why that build has low is, is low refines, with mirages only, not even with refine aids, u can get to +5 +6 easy, just buy a lot of mirages and try till u get it. About shards, i would advice exclusive garnets, wizards benefit froim them more than any other arcane class due to stone barrier, and if u are demon even more cause is better than sage one.

Once your p.def will be decent, all you have to do is slowly keep refinig armors, with a full +10 AA g16 set, you should be at 10-11k base hp, which is pretty good

WannaBM - Archosaur

You post a build with
-base vit
-3 armor refines
-10 weapon refines.

Obviously it is squichy. I actually like the 3 armor refines and 10 weapon refines because it is a great setup in combination with some vit.

O malleys is also an option indeed. Once that is more easy to change than stat points.

Or of course keep all as it is an use tishas/tienkangs to make those armors +7 or +8. The way i feel about it, that is where refining actually starts. +6 with mirages and aids is a breeze. +7 gets a little annoying, +8 is where your really happy if you make it. Then comes the big money to get +9 and more.

If you do everything to build your toon like a glass cannon, dont be surprised that it is indeed squichy.


What hitpoints you need to play comfortably is hard to say for me since obviously as a barb my play style is rather opposite from the wizzy. Surely you should be able to do FW and lunar etc with the build as you posted it. In flowsilver i see clerics with such HP counts die all the time. But then again, i see many people die all the time, its just that the dying clerics are of concern to me that i notice I do think if you know what you are doing you should be fine really in FSP and it surely will be fine if you get those refines up a bit higher.

Adroit - Lost City

Yeah poo gear is going to have poo hp. End game wizards can easily hit 20k+ hp and 25k+ pdef self buffed.. which coupled with purify makes us a pretty difficult class to take down.

Nibaki - Heavens Tear

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

Yeah poo gear is going to have poo hp. End game wizards can easily hit 20k+ hp and 25k+ pdef self buffed.. which coupled with purify makes us a pretty difficult class to take down if you know how to play it.

fixed

killeresras

What adroit said. Wizzy have more def than all the other arcanes so I don't think you'd want to be anything other than wizzy if u think wizzy have it tough. They pretty much have more p.def than everyone at higher gears with the exception of HA classes. On top of the def they are definitely the highest hitters lol.

Only other arcane class that compares in p.def to wizzy is veno in fox form.

opkossy

What the others said.

You know the +10 weapon +3 armor 1-shot sins everyone complains about taking aggro and dying? The calc you've made is the arcane version of the same thing. Higher refines on your armor and ornaments will result in a drastic increase to survivability.

Foxyas - Dreamweaver

Oh I forgot to mention, I am a PVE player(and with the release of FSP, I no longer run NW for profit), so she won't be PVP'ing whatsoever(unless something better then FSP comes out and it's a PVP event such as NW but that's highly unlikely for a long time).

My main concern is surviving multiple dungeons, how much VIT should I put in for my first rebirth while I have low refines(and work on them over time) and work on the necklace and belt as well?

I will do 2nd reawakening once I have high refines enough to survive with base vit, I will take out the points from VIT and back into magic. Mainly I just need to survive FSP(in such cases where I'm the ONLY cont-aoe DD, I rarely ever see seekers or wizards come), FC(I'm bored of my bm/sin, aps toons are fun but gets boring after 2 years), and other daily dungeons.

Oh and why I'm making a wizard of all things.....

I already have APS BM/Sin, Full G16 archer, and a Full G16 seeker. I recently restored my veno leveling her up to 100, and making her full G16 AA slowly, and befor veno I had a wizzy...REALLY enjoyed playing him(before the time of power leveling or even the idea of selling FC existed), but I got lonely playing wizzy alone and the mana costs were too much at a certain point to where killing one mob took 25% of my mana everytime and I needed like 30. So I made veno instead for pet.....but with times having changed, I can play wizzy once more.

Eoria - Harshlands

Just bot DQs for event gold and do +5-+7 refines on the armor.

WannaBM - Archosaur

hmm sounds a bit like you are too used to your seeker and want to use DB wherever your seeker would vortex ?

You dont need to use DB in FSP. Its just a few groups of mobs and they die easilly if everyone casts an aoe or 2.

I would stat a medium amount of vit like 50 or so and then experiment with both jones and omalleys. If you want to play it like a seeker though, you may want to stat 200vit and use omalleys

peckked

Is the +10 weapon due to free 10* orbs?

Reason I ask, is if you were to decide to stat no extra vit (instead of 50) and put it in magic instead, go with a 9* weapon, you could easily afford +5 on every other piece of gear (armor, neck, belt) for the cost of that 10*. You would actually see an increase in def stats across the board to HP, Pdef, Mdef, and losing only 45 matk.

http://pwcalc.com/3f21cb41685f3b30 - 55 vit

http://pwcalc.com/9883a8a3bbcbe60f - 5 vit

Essentially, you would be trading 45 matk for 180 more hp, 500 pdef, 120 mdef. All of these benefit more from barb/bm/ep buffs than the 45 matk benefits from an ep buff which would be the norm in most PVE squad scenarios.

Personally I've found keeping a weapon within ~3-4 refines of my gear balances out well in terms of return on investment.

Lastly, I'm questioning the wisdom in the glass cannon approach for a purely PVE wizard as higher damage isn't really lacking in an average 10 man squad, while survival is almost insisted upon now especially in instances like Flowsilver. I've seen wizzies squish in there on last boss' aoe (not the one shot one) due to low refines on decent gear.

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

Couple things

1. You will probably never roll the exact PWCalc default stats, lol

hhttp://pwcalc.com/04bdbb0fa4812199

Go for +PDef on wrists and chest. No one needs a +10 weapon with +3 armor and +3 orns (the worst bit). AA Cape refines for more than other AA G16 gear for some weird reason.

2. y u not anal enough about min str (restat when reincarnating)

3. K I'm too good at this calc game. Here's an R8r/mold/G14 wizzie with better base def/HP http://pwcalc.com/369c601f401e9511 Prolly will get better if there were stats on chest/pants (OK, kinda cheated with +900 HP R8r bonus)

Srsly why do people love using mag rings on caster classes? Mag rings should go on vit barbs/HA tanking sets imo

Foxyas - Dreamweaver

peckked wrote: »

Is the +10 weapon due to free 10* orbs?

Yes it's all paid for technically. 6* and 7* orbs coming from reawakening on my veno twice when I get around to it, and 3 *10 orbs from the 21st dragon orb incident.

But the weapon is still +0 atm.

Veneir - Dreamweaver

Srsly why do people love using mag rings on caster classes? Mag rings should go on vit barbs/HA tanking sets imo

*shrugs* People tend to see rings as an offensive rather than a defensive object, I guess. And there's only a few that give both the attack stat and the defensive stat that people want.
I'm HA, so I have several options for rings that give both attack stats and my lacking defence, like the seal of eternal solitude as a easy one to find, and the rank rings which are more expensive for example, so I can get the both of both worlds pretty easily and very consciously choose to do so.... but it's harder to find a ring that gives physical defence and magic attack for people who use AA, contrarily, except for the later rank ones.

opkossy

Also in PvE, you really don't need the extra defense from rings, so refines on them (for casters, anyway) won't matter all that much as long as you have decently refined ornaments.

WannaBM - Archosaur

peckked wrote: »

Personally I've found keeping a weapon within ~3-4 refines of my gear balances out well in terms of return on investment.

I have experimented with the calc on different classes including magic ones and i disagree.
It is better to stat vit and keep your weapon refine +10. Your armors will soon enough go to +5 anyways. This is better than a lower refined weapon and equally refined armors and no vit.

So keep your weapon +10 and go from there.

For the rings it gets easier if you get sign of antiquity: chaos. Its got both physical defence and all the other stuff your caster wants.

Desdi - Sanctuary

Since your weapon's refines are free I'd probably go for the +10 weapon with Vit added for survival. Play with the calculator to see how much Vit/HP you want and compare the loss in attack (but honestly a dead DD deals no damage so don't prioritize your magic attack too much).

Trying botting for some event gold to get refine aids and +5/+6 your armor/ornaments easily. Afterwards, you can start taking Vit out (on second rebirth like you said).

XXHotXx - Morai

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

Yeah poo gear is going to have poo hp. End game wizards can easily hit 20k+ hp and 25k+ pdef self buffed.. which coupled with purify makes us a pretty difficult class to take down.

not anymore if you are in mass pk situation with a barb spamming mighty swing on you :x
also 20k+ hp on self buffs? uhm considering S cards too right?

HanyIstok - Morai

Wizzie is the porcelain canon, you know. you must handle like that. I enjoy that many skills what i must use as a wizzie, the gameplay is so exciting! You must silence, push back, jump away, slow down, and so on! Fascinating! All the arcanes know that our weapon is not our hp and def... kill faster then they can reach you.

Atropah - Sanctuary

So in addition to what I've just read, you've forgotten about titles and meridians. Don't forget nuemas and avatars. There's also a 90% chance you'll get better than 2 sockets on your gear. And obviously missing a tome.

By level 100 you'll prolly be done with the second circle of meridian, so +300ish hp and +100 pdef. I'd need to go through titles and add things up but there is easily +200 pdef there and that gets added to your base def and multiplied by stats/G16/Stone barrier so it'll become +500. Same with your meridian pdef. Nuemas can add a a bit of hp and pdef, not much till you really level them but easily 100-200. Avatars can add massive hp and pdef, anywhere from 100 to a couple thousand...

Okay, all of that is even before we really consider gear. There was a time a couple years ago when I first hit level 100 most the casters around were in tt90, had 3k hp, had half the pdef in your calc, and did fine in TT3-3, Warsong, and Lunars. My first Lunar was in my 70s. At level 100 a 3.5k hp caster was standard, a 5k was well geared, and anything over 7k was endgame.

I don't think people realize how much of their hp and defenses come from refines. I'll see a +12 r9t3 trash talk a +7 r9t3 because they're "equally geared" but the +12 has double the attack, way more defense, and triple the hp. Then I'll see a +10-12 G16 brag about how they can beat r9t3s, but won't mention they're refined way better and even though their armor is worse their stats are better overall. Going from +7 to +10 is about double the amount of hp given from refines, and it about doubles again from +10 to +12. Refine -.-

Best advice:

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

Just bot DQs for event gold and do +5-+7 refines on the armor.

Really, +5 or +6 refines should be considered free because they are so simply farmed and don't require items to get them except sometime event gold, which is earned from farming. This should take priority over your expensive gems. Assuming you have 18 sockets needing to be filled, you will need 63 mil and 1.8k influence. That'll give you 450 more hp than if you went 18 flawless, but will cost you 60m more. Is 450hp worth 60m to you? It shouldn't be until you are well refined first.

Or, even better, farm incomparables in weekly seat/aba.

I also agree with the others on going garnets or cit/garnet mix for pdef. Hp is much easier to replace when it leaves you slower because you're taking less damage.

And those rings >.< I see you have a plan to go Lunar ring, and thats a good plan. You seem afraid of refining so a ring that comes with +250 pdef is a good idea. You may want to consider a physical ring, since there are many cheap options that will perform well. The higher the grade, typically the higher the refine rate and a physical ring will refine for pdef. Even picking up a perfect attendance physical ring isn't too bad and completely free. If you want to stick with a magic ring, and since you like farming, try farming this lunar ring called Ring of Zealousness since it gives you +2 def levels.

peckked wrote: »

http://pwcalc.com/3f21cb41685f3b30 - 55 vit

http://pwcalc.com/9883a8a3bbcbe60f - 5 vit

Essentially, you would be trading 45 matk for 180 more hp, 500 pdef, 120 mdef.

Took me a minute to realize your "50 vit difference" making only 45 m atk was because the weapon refines were different.

Sel_Darkmore - Dreamweaver

With experience over the years having my wife play a wiz my advice in my opinion is , look up the" Refine for cheap" video and learn to +5 ur gear without orbs, forget the vit it really hardly does squat for hp, dump in as much magic as u can (more magic =more DD= hit harder, less attacks it takes to take something down in most cases, get that O barrier and decent phy ornaments and ofc even the lunar rings when ur able..as for shards..well i would say mix them up..between Hp/p.Def and later on down the line when u farm up enough for higher orbs ..get the helm as high of a refine as possible.

As far as pvp related things i really couldnt tell u except when i use my wifes wiz i just "tab click" most times. b:surrender

Spell_Caster - Raging Tide

If u play for pvp: tw pk nw then go full glass cannon. With a 10 wep u can 3spark and use genie spark to hurt r9.3 rr ppl. 2k more hp or pdef wont make a difference when sins or seekers hit u for 30 40 k nor when purged archer will oneshot u. Relly on ig usage in hey moments and bounce out maybe with expell in between cds. No wizzie should go man mode in mass pvp unless u have op gear and u face lower geared people.

Foxyas - Dreamweaver

Well I was poking around for the aquametal rewards and I found out this:

http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/quest/30347

http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/quest/30348

I'm currently farming those packs(I just got the 2 pets/dark abyss horse) so it's gonna take some time but all my gear will be +6 with those free orbs easily, probably a week of 24/7 auto cultivation to farm enough aquametal.

sha2ow

Why people keep saying +5 , +6 , or even +7 is free ?! are u kidding me ? i cant get it past +2 with only mirages , and thats after wasting + 20 mirages < on armor which requires only 1 mirage per refine > . with help of stones , i could once, and only once make a +4 and thats after using about 70+ mirages and 30+ stones !

So i really dont get it when people say refining is free ! b:angry

Mayfly - Dreamweaver

You have a chance of getting 55 mirages for level 100 BH1 turnin, you get a nirvana talisman for each level 100 BH turnin, and a third from Mysterious Priest quest if a caster, which each can be changed into 5 mirages. Those add up fairly fast.

Accumulate enough DQ points (by NPCing DQ items, chests of coins, and perhaps a few other items) and you can trade them for event gold (and there are other ways to get event gold.) These can be used to buy tienkangs and tishas.

This doesn't make refines free (since you could have sold the mirages/sold the DQ to other players if you farmed them, or not bought them if you went the other way/used the event gold for something else) but does make Dragon Orb free refining up to about +7 substantially cheaper on average than refining with Dragon Orbs (but more frustrating.) See WarrenWolfy's refining thread in the Crafting Nook.

Fissile - Archosaur

Refining isn't literally free, it is just so cheap compared to gear and shards the cost of lower refinements is generally not considered. Save up a bunch if event gold as mentioned and a few hundred mirage celestones. Also you get 25 each of tisha and tienkang just for reaching Mirage sky 1 (requires you to reach level 100 and reincarnate twice but that is part of normal character progression). 25 tienkang stones is almost certainly enough to get 1 gear to at least +6.

The reason people are prone to ignore the cost of refinement is because the stuff you need to do it generally accumulates during normal gameplay.

Burnout - Harshlands

As long as you don't get purged, wizards can easily be one of the tankiest classes in the game next to barbs/jaded seekers.

Get puurged though and getting hit for 8k+ from super-endgame archers autos isn't uncommon.

Adroit - Lost City

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

As long as you don't get purged, wizards can easily be one of the tankiest classes in the game next to barbs/jaded seekers.

Get puurged though and getting hit for 8k+ from super-endgame archers autos isn't uncommon.

I used to agree with you in that wizards were one of the tankiest classes, but after thinking about it a bit, I really don't think that is the case anymore. An easy comparison would be with another AA class, let's just say a veno. An end game veno should be much harder to kill than a wizard, they can sit in fox form for the same pdef boost that we get from stone barrier.. and then they have tons of defensive stuff and we are left with just blink/fow. I mean they have bramble hood, the morai skill that reduces dmg by 30% or w.e, 10 sec immune that costs a spark, the swap hp/mp, and lots of cc to stop an attacker, the ability to use a vit build and still be effective, the ability to use a vit/mag genie while still being effective (faith/domain genies are fantastic for staying alive.. we are almost forced into dex genies which is pretty limited defensively), and of course chi burn + purge can cripple many kill combos that one might use on them.

Kinda on the same lines, mystics have a self buff that gives pdef (not quite as much as we get, but still a good buff), but they also have fantastic heals and effects from summons that offer more pdef or dmg reduction etc.. which makes them far tankier than than wizards. Clerics also have heals, plume shell, extra pdef from buffs, guardian light and the shell.. not to mention sog + sleep to ruin kill combos. Both clerics and mystics also can use vit/mag genies which is a huge defensive advantage as well. Psychics are probably closest to us, they are pretty squishy in black voodoo.. but seal buff + psy will + white voodoo + bubble does give them a bit. Along with a vit/mag genie, they'd probably be harder to take down in most situations than an equivalent wizard (although a sin popping out with will surge when the psy is in black could ninja drop it.. less likely to happen to a wiz).

Other classes are harder to compare due to lack of purify, but obviously bms have higher hp and resistances, can often times use a def lvl wep.. vit/mag genie again and tons of cc, I think it'd be difficult to say that we would take more abuse than a bm. We are certainly better off than archers, sins are also tough because of tidal/nerves.. I think we still have an edge over them. Seekers/barbs are tough because both lack mdef, although with this expansion maybe it won't be as bad.

Long story short, I don't really think we are one of the tankiest classes. We lack active defense skills and while our dex genies are fantastic for offense.. they are lacking a bit defensively imo.

Burnout - Harshlands

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

I used to agree with you in that wizards were one of the tankiest classes, but after thinking about it a bit, I really don't think that is the case anymore. An easy comparison would be with another AA class, let's just say a veno. An end game veno should be much harder to kill than a wizard, they can sit in fox form for the same pdef boost that we get from stone barrier.. and then they have tons of defensive stuff and we are left with just blink/fow. I mean they have bramble hood, the morai skill that reduces dmg by 30% or w.e, 10 sec immune that costs a spark, the swap hp/mp, and lots of cc to stop an attacker, the ability to use a vit build and still be effective, the ability to use a vit/mag genie while still being effective (faith/domain genies are fantastic for staying alive.. we are almost forced into dex genies which is pretty limited defensively), and of course chi burn + purge can cripple many kill combos that one might use on them.

Kinda on the same lines, mystics have a self buff that gives pdef (not quite as much as we get, but still a good buff), but they also have fantastic heals and effects from summons that offer more pdef or dmg reduction etc.. which makes them far tankier than than wizards. Clerics also have heals, plume shell, extra pdef from buffs, guardian light and the shell.. not to mention sog + sleep to ruin kill combos. Both clerics and mystics also can use vit/mag genies which is a huge defensive advantage as well. Psychics are probably closest to us, they are pretty squishy in black voodoo.. but seal buff + psy will + white voodoo + bubble does give them a bit. Along with a vit/mag genie, they'd probably be harder to take down in most situations than an equivalent wizard (although a sin popping out with will surge when the psy is in black could ninja drop it.. less likely to happen to a wiz).

Other classes are harder to compare due to lack of purify, but obviously bms have higher hp and resistances, can often times use a def lvl wep.. vit/mag genie again and tons of cc, I think it'd be difficult to say that we would take more abuse than a bm. We are certainly better off than archers, sins are also tough because of tidal/nerves.. I think we still have an edge over them. Seekers/barbs are tough because both lack mdef, although with this expansion maybe it won't be as bad.

Long story short, I don't really think we are one of the tankiest classes. We lack active defense skills and while our dex genies are fantastic for offense.. they are lacking a bit defensively imo.

It kind of depends tbh. I find my mystic dies to multiple archers far more often than my wiz, simply due to the fact that my wiz can simply DS out.

Mystics really have no choice but to sit there and tank whatever damage is coming (save for a timely purify proc), and vs archers, tanking multiple autos is a REALLY bad idea, as a purge is inevitable. We can knockback one target, but that's not a guarantee that it will knock them out of range, and the 1.5s channel means we take a couple more autos just to use it.

So yeah, my mystic can definitely tank more archer autos, but their tankiness has its advantages and disadvantages in different situations.

I suppose venos have always been tanky, but then they also aren't considered a "true" caster in the sense that they get 12 hp/vit and less benefit from MAG stat (iirc).