Gear up wiz or no

Articyone - Archosaur

So the situation is such. I got r9 archer, gears +10 and still needs to get recasted, i got sin with r999 wep for farming and right now im in situation that i can not decide to gear continue gearing up archer or swap to wizard which is my old main char just r8 atm. Recently i have noticed that end game with archer is not that enjoyable like it used to be when r9 just came out. So what would you do if you were me?b:thanks

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

3rd cast your archer for mass pvp + NW

__Sami__ - Archosaur

I would say depending if you can afford gearing wizzy in reasonable amount of time to do so, ultimately one should play what one enjoys. But if gearing toon is struggle, I would stick with archer, gear plays too large part in this game and being undergeared on fun class can be frustrating .

Burnout - Harshlands

Articyone - Archosaur wrote: »

So the situation is such. I got r9 archer, gears +10 and still needs to get recasted, i got sin with r999 wep for farming and right now im in situation that i can not decide to gear continue gearing up archer or swap to wizard which is my old main char just r8 atm. Recently i have noticed that end game with archer is not that enjoyable like it used to be when r9 just came out. So what would you do if you were me?b:thanks

If you want mass PVP/TW/NW, go with Archer.

Wizards can be deadly effective in 1v1 if you're okay with abusing a broken mechanic, mainly the genie skill spark. Besides that, the main value they have in TW are ults and killing barbs, but archer barrages arguably have just as much utility, along with more single target killing potential.

XSonOfCircex - Sanctuary

Wizard has some interesting mechanics that come with playing it. We mov about the field differently than most classes, since we have this weird combination of being ranged DD but some of our best skills being close ranged, or coming in close to nerf archers (You know, until they jump away) making for something pretty unique. But yeah, for mass pvp we are limited in a way that archer isnt (or at least is significantly less, in my experience). That isnt to say that wizard isnt fun, just that you dont play wizard because you wanna kill lots of people at once, you play it because you love wizard.

Dragslave - Dreamweaver

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

If you want mass PVP/TW/NW, go with Archer.

Wizards can be deadly effective in 1v1 if you're okay with abusing a broken mechanic, mainly the genie skill spark. Besides that, the main value they have in TW are ults and killing barbs, but archer barrages arguably have just as much utility, along with more single target killing potential.

If u think spark combo and killing barbs are the opnly things wizards can do... u really need to learn about wizards...
By saying that i could say archers only boa on towers or catas on TW and thats it? >.>


Wizards are one of the most fun classes to play 1 vs 1 and in mass pvp as well. You just need to gear it up and good, cause a squishy or unrefined wizard is useless, and then have fun!!!

XHurricanex - Harshlands

I think best thing would be to chose from seeker or wizard

Burnout - Harshlands

Dragslave - Dreamweaver wrote: »

If u think spark combo and killing barbs are the opnly things wizards can do... u really need to learn about wizards...
By saying that i could say archers only boa on towers or catas on TW and thats it? >.>


Wizards are one of the most fun classes to play 1 vs 1 and in mass pvp as well. You just need to gear it up and good, cause a squishy or unrefined wizard is useless, and then have fun!!!

No, learn to read better pls. I said those two are their main utilities. They can go around killing random targets, but unless they have a couple sparks to blow, psychics/archers will do it better and more consistently.

With genie spark they can trump just about every class except maybe a marrowed BM in 1v1, but it has far less value in NW/TW because of it's poor range.

Adroit - Lost City

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

No, learn to read better pls. I said those two are their main utilities. They can go around killing random targets, but unless they have a couple sparks to blow, psychics/archers will do it better and more consistently.

With genie spark they can trump just about every class except maybe a marrowed BM in 1v1, but it has far less value in NW/TW because of it's poor range.

#1, wizzies can kill bms in 1v1s
#2, a well played wizard is one of the best killing machines in the game.. saying it doesn't compare to archers/psychics is ridiculous. I'd actually argue we can kill major targets better than archers/psychics, while maintaining higher survivability.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

I wonder...

in a world where everybody is equally geared out in endgame gear, who does most of the killing?

We all know that a decked out wizard with a decked, out, high-dext genie, can kill just about anything, in group pvp, or in 1vs1 pvp. However, if we assume that a wizard is at least somewhat reliant on genie for KILLING, we have to look at the limitations of the genie. The genie skill 'Spark' requires a high-dexterity genie to be useful. It also has a 40s cooldown. For sake of argument, lets assume that every time a good wizard uses Spark, an enemy dies. Therefore, at best, a wizard can kill an opponent once every 40 seconds, if the Spark debuff is the primary way that a wizard kills.

An archer kills people with purge. A good archer in group settings will get in as many hits as possible to maximize their ability to purge opponents. For sake of argument, lets say that every time an archer purges their enemy, that enemy dies. The question then becomes, how often does an archer purge? In group pvp, does an archer get a purge off in less than 40 seconds on average? To guess at this I'll have to make up some more #s, but lets see where they take us. Lets assume that spirit blackhole proc rate is 8%. Lets also assume that an archer attacks for about 1/3 to 1/2 of the time during 40 seconds (rest of time would be spent kiting or getting cced). For ease of math, lets also assume that they can attack once per second (in reality, if they use any skills, it won't be quite that high). At 1/2 time spent attacking, that means 20 attacks in 40 seconds, and, with an 8% proc rate on purge, that means roughly 1-2 of those attacks will purge. However, also keep in mind that any skill carrying a debuff will not purge, so we might say that an archer aught to purge roughly once every 40 seconds.

Of course this is a bit of a nonsensical comparison full of guesswork and assumptions. If a wizard uses spark, it doesn't automatically spell death for the person targeted. Somebody who gets purged isn't always doomed to die either. However, in each case it does greatly increase the chance of death, in a way that cannot be calculated.

So, what does this mean? Archers and wizards may not be so different after all in their ability to kill people, though I will give archer's the slight edge in group pvp. Whereas spark has a hard-cap of 40s cooldown, purge can randomly occur much more frequently. In groups, a purge becomes much more of a death sentence than 1vs1. In some group situations, an archer attack for up to 100% of the 40 seconds, leading to 2 or even 3 purges on average during that time period. However, the reverse is also true: an archer might be prevented from attacking due to the need to constantly kite, and an archer needs to hit multiple times to get a purge often. However, a wizard can do nothing for 40 seconds, and then still unleash a bomb as soon as the smallest opening presents itself.

Long story short, both classes kill lots of people at similar rates, but they do so in very different ways. Archers remove positive buffs. Wizards apply negative buffs. In the end... DEATH!

Cheers!

Burnout - Harshlands

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I wonder...

in a world where everybody is equally geared out in endgame gear, who does most of the killing?

We all know that a decked out wizard with a decked, out, high-dext genie, can kill just about anything, in group pvp, or in 1vs1 pvp. However, if we assume that a wizard is at least somewhat reliant on genie for KILLING, we have to look at the limitations of the genie. The genie skill 'Spark' requires a high-dexterity genie to be useful. It also has a 40s cooldown. For sake of argument, lets assume that every time a good wizard uses Spark, an enemy dies. Therefore, at best, a wizard can kill an opponent once every 40 seconds, if the Spark debuff is the primary way that a wizard kills.

An archer kills people with purge. A good archer in group settings will get in as many hits as possible to maximize their ability to purge opponents. For sake of argument, lets say that every time an archer purges their enemy, that enemy dies. The question then becomes, how often does an archer purge? In group pvp, does an archer get a purge off in less than 40 seconds on average? To guess at this I'll have to make up some more #s, but lets see where they take us. Lets assume that spirit blackhole proc rate is 8%. Lets also assume that an archer attacks for about 1/3 to 1/2 of the time during 40 seconds (rest of time would be spent kiting or getting cced). For ease of math, lets also assume that they can attack once per second (in reality, if they use any skills, it won't be quite that high). At 1/2 time spent attacking, that means 20 attacks in 40 seconds, and, with an 8% proc rate on purge, that means roughly 1-2 of those attacks will purge. However, also keep in mind that any skill carrying a debuff will not purge, so we might say that an archer aught to purge roughly once every 40 seconds.

Of course this is a bit of a nonsensical comparison full of guesswork and assumptions. If a wizard uses spark, it doesn't automatically spell death for the person targeted. Somebody who gets purged isn't always doomed to die either. However, in each case it does greatly increase the chance of death, in a way that cannot be calculated.

So, what does this mean? Archers and wizards may not be so different after all in their ability to kill people, though I will give archer's the slight edge in group pvp. Whereas spark has a hard-cap of 40s cooldown, purge can randomly occur much more frequently. In groups, a purge becomes much more of a death sentence than 1vs1. In some group situations, an archer attack for up to 100% of the 40 seconds, leading to 2 or even 3 purges on average during that time period. However, the reverse is also true: an archer might be prevented from attacking due to the need to constantly kite, and an archer needs to hit multiple times to get a purge often. However, a wizard can do nothing for 40 seconds, and then still unleash a bomb as soon as the smallest opening presents itself.

Long story short, both classes kill lots of people at similar rates, but they do so in very different ways. Archers remove positive buffs. Wizards apply negative buffs. In the end... DEATH!

Cheers!

It's not really valid to compare just on those two skills, given that spark is 15m range - but in addition to that, we need to also be within WoTP range to fully combo down "well geared" targets not already in danger. Without WoTP, we only really have DP and pyro, which both have 3s cooldowns, which means we need to stick in a gush somewhere.

I think wiz and arch are generally equal in killing power, but they do it differently. Archers excel at consistency, while wizards can absolutely destroy multiple high-value targets at once, but generally need long cooldowns/chi to do so. They can get similar kill counts, but archers are just more reliable and easier to do it with.

IMO the QS/Stun/auto rotation is superior to the wizard's gush/pyro, but ofc wizards offer more than just that in TW.

Adroit - Lost City

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Of course this is a bit of a nonsensical comparison

Pretty much, yeah You cannot compare two classes' killing ability by looking at one small piece of what makes them a class. Wizards don't just get paralyzed like a deer in headlights when spark is on cd, and archers don't sit there for 40 seconds straight auto attacking anyone within range (archers are easily harassed being the squishiest class in game and lacking purify). Also, the ability to use spark when it is a good time (and not just randomly every once in a while) is INSANELY useful.. equivocating a well timed spark with random purges is just silly.

I'm not trying to say that archers aren't a strong class in group pvp, but I view their role as more of support (purge)/DD rather than pure DD (which is a category I think only has wiz/sins). If you were in a situation where you had some group pvp with plenty of purgers on your side.. the wizard would be the obvious choice for actually DDing/killing people.

@Burnout - spark range is 20m, and wotp is not always necessary in a spark combo. D.pyro -> pyro -> crown -> d.pyro -> pyro is an excellent combo that does not include wotp.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

I'm not trying to say that archers aren't a strong class in group pvp, but I view their role as more of support (purge)/DD rather than pure DD (which is a category I think only has wiz/sins). If you were in a situation where you had some group pvp with plenty of purgers on your side.. the wizard would be the obvious choice for actually DDing/killing people.

I take issue with this, for a number of reasons.

1) Why assume that you'll have lots of others around to purge? Of course the theory goes that 'any class can purge', but in reality, in group pvp, the only ones who regularly purge are archers and venos (and sometimes barbs). 3 Classes out of 10. In other words, in general, there is usually a high ratio of normal dds/purge dds. It is all well and good to say 'if there are tons of purgers, add in a normal dd for better effect', but in reality, when do you actually have the luxury of so many purgers?

This brings to mind some recent Nation Wars fights I had a couple days ago. In some of these fights I was outnumbered 20 to 1. By pure luck, however, in two particular fights, there was no purger on the enemy side at all. Without a purge-dd, I was unstoppable and eventually won the fight. In either of these fights (this I know from much experience) a single purge would have instantly killed me. I was tanking an insane amount of damage on the strength of my heals, and I would have been instantly flattened if my buffs disappeared.

Therefore, if you want to tell me 'when you have lots of purgers, a pure dd is more useful', I'll reply with 'but when you are low on purger-dds, a purge-dd is FAR FAR FAR more valuable than a pure dd'.


2) A purge-dd can replace ordinary dds (in terms of damage potential) in small to mid-size group pvp. The damage a purge-dd will be able to do to a target once that target is purged scales just like the damage a wizard does before and after applying spark debuff (not quite as extreme, but close). Therefore, if a purge-dd can frequently purge, they can do as much effective damage as a normal dd.

The reason we need ordinary dds isn't *really* for their damage. In almost every case, a squad full of archers can tear apart everything, including barbs (due to shared metal defense debuffs). The reason we need others is for support---offensive control skills, defense healing, defensive rebuffing, etc.

For example, we OFTEN see wizards: using seal; using hailstorm; using that weird morai debuff that immobilizes target; using aoe occult-ice-stun-thingy, using gush (slow counts as a control skill); using their 2 spark stun; using sleep; using vary stun skills if demon. Yes, wizards do a lot of dmg, just like archers. But when we compare wizards control skills to archers, wizards are the clear winner: archers have one stun, one immobilize (single target only) and one seal. For all practical purposes due to chi costs, an archer just has their single-target stun. When you look at it from this perspective, WIZARDS play more of a support role than archers do.

In terms of dd, wizards come into their own when we scale up the group vs group situation---aka, TW. In TW, there are enough people packed together that the wizard's superiority in hard-hitting, practical aoes starts to really show. Whereas in the smaller groups archers are doing most of the real damage, the larger the group, the more wizards aoes increase their damage output relative to archers.


3) It is FAR easier to remove or block debuffs than it is to reapply buffs. Even with the advent of spirit of defense, you have to wait 2 minutes to reapply a full complement of buffs. If your apoth is on cooldown/others are too busy to rebuff you, then you simply go without. During this time you take far greater damage from EVERYBODY.

In comparison, when a wizard debuffs you, you can instantly remove or block the debuff in a variety of ways, including belief, triple spark, cleric purify, purify proc on weapon, sage mystic heal, sage psychic heal, archer double spark... to list a few. Furthermore, the fire debuff is only useful for ONE class and ONE class only. That's right, only wizards do appreciable fire damage. When you apply the spark debuff, if that debuff is blocked (say, soul of fire) nobody else does increased damage to the target.

I already know your counter-argument, and I won't dispute it: the power of debuffs is in being able to place them on a target when they are most useful. However, this doesn't change the fact that it is harder to reapply buffs than it is to remove debuffs---especially for a cleric!

~

Adroit - Lost City

@Aeliah - Few things, first of all bms can also purge frequently.. and if you are trying to make the case that purge = killing things, well then surely the best DD of all is a full vit veno. Heck, a level 30 veno with no gear could be considered a fantastic DD by that criteria. Although there is some overlap, I view purge as more of a support skill.. generally when I get purged, the one that purged me isn't the one that does the damage to kill me. This is why I put archers in more of a support/DD category, I'm far more worried about them purging me than the damage they do.

I also think you are dead wrong in that a wizard has more support than an EA, a wizard that does **** damage is near useless for everything. Wizards don't have a useful "share-able" buff, we cannot purge without eruption fist, our CC is ****, and our main amps (undine + spark) only work for ourselves (I guess we have ice prison.. but that is situational to say the least). An archer that has a +0 cv bow and full vit build does poo damage, but could still be very useful with purge + blood vow.

So yes, purge is fantastic.. I'm not trying to take away from that at all. What I am saying is that purge =/= DD, which would mean archers fall more into a support/DD role and less of a pure DD role. If you consider a level 30 veno running around purging people as the rest of the squad kills unbuffed person a major DD.. then we'd just have to agree to disagree on what a DD means.

Quilue - Sanctuary

If you have to talk about crappy geared DDs playing support...

I would have to agree archers beat wizards in the bottom-of-the-barrel usefulness race.

Although demon wizards are good at procing freezes and stuns, and the fast seal from either culti is nice...

Archers have STA, BV, metal debuff, alacrity and if you really do no damage and can't take hits, you can use Galvanic Barrage to hope to purge people without much in the way of retaliation. All is useful if you can live long enough to do it.

But that role for either class is a depressing situation to be in. Better just play a veno, that can be very useful **** geared or very awesomely useful well geared.

Adroit - Lost City

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

If you have to talk about crappy geared DDs playing support...

I would have to agree archers beat wizards in the bottom-of-the-barrel usefulness race.

Although demon wizards are good at procing freezes and stuns, and the fast seal from either culti is nice...

Archers have STA, BV, metal debuff, and if you really do no damage and can't take hits, you can use Galvanic Barrage to hope to purge people without much in the way of retaliation.

But that role for either class is a depressing situation to be in. Better just play a veno, that can be very useful **** geared or very awesomely useful well geared.

I'm not just talking about bottom of the barrel though, wizards are ONLY good for DD.. if you aren't killing things as a wizard (or at the very least forcing lots of genie/apoth).. you are basically useless. Archers should obviously be killing things too, but purges + strong amps (mainly blood vow) mean that they can still be very effective without actually killing anything themselves.. which is basically the definition of support. Archers are not a full support class like a bm/veno/ep.. but don't really fall into a pure DD class either imo.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

It really depends a lot on the scenario, I guess.

When a veno purges me, the veno rarely ends up killing me. However, when an *archer* purges me, the archer often is the one who kills me as well. Barbs and bms can go either way.

I guess I wasn't referring so much to 'any purger' as i was to 'archer-purgers'. Archers do good dps by default, and then great dps when they purge somebody. Now clearly other classes can hit harder than an archer on a purged target. However, an archer purge comes from the archer hitting you. This means that, every time, the archer is the first one to do damage onto a purged target (unlike a veno who may never use a single damage skill while purging). It is the archer who will always get a few hits onto a purged target, no matter how fast the target's reaction time is. Most people don't sit there and tank a purge---they do something about it, which means either rebuffing, or running, or stealthing, or genie, or apoth. So while a wizard may very well hit harder on a purge target than an archer, they will have far fewer opportunities to do so. An archer's damage alone is often enough to kill the target after the target is purged, so comparing an archer's purge-dmg to a wizard's debuff dmg isn't entirely without merit.

Sint - Harshlands

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I take issue with this, for a number of reasons.

1) Why assume that you'll have lots of others around to purge? Of course the theory goes that 'any class can purge', but in reality, in group pvp, the only ones who regularly purge are archers and venos (and sometimes barbs). 3 Classes out of 10. In other words, in general, there is usually a high ratio of normal dds/purge dds. It is all well and good to say 'if there are tons of purgers, add in a normal dd for better effect', but in reality, when do you actually have the luxury of so many purgers?

This brings to mind some recent Nation Wars fights I had a couple days ago. In some of these fights I was outnumbered 20 to 1. By pure luck, however, in two particular fights, there was no purger on the enemy side at all. Without a purge-dd, I was unstoppable and eventually won the fight. In either of these fights (this I know from much experience) a single purge would have instantly killed me. I was tanking an insane amount of damage on the strength of my heals, and I would have been instantly flattened if my buffs disappeared.

Therefore, if you want to tell me 'when you have lots of purgers, a pure dd is more useful', I'll reply with 'but when you are low on purger-dds, a purge-dd is FAR FAR FAR more valuable than a pure dd'.


2) A purge-dd can replace ordinary dds (in terms of damage potential) in small to mid-size group pvp. The damage a purge-dd will be able to do to a target once that target is purged scales just like the damage a wizard does before and after applying spark debuff (not quite as extreme, but close). Therefore, if a purge-dd can frequently purge, they can do as much effective damage as a normal dd.

The reason we need ordinary dds isn't *really* for their damage. In almost every case, a squad full of archers can tear apart everything, including barbs (due to shared metal defense debuffs). The reason we need others is for support---offensive control skills, defense healing, defensive rebuffing, etc.

For example, we OFTEN see wizards: using seal; using hailstorm; using that weird morai debuff that immobilizes target; using aoe occult-ice-stun-thingy, using gush (slow counts as a control skill); using their 2 spark stun; using sleep; using vary stun skills if demon. Yes, wizards do a lot of dmg, just like archers. But when we compare wizards control skills to archers, wizards are the clear winner: archers have one stun, one immobilize (single target only) and one seal. For all practical purposes due to chi costs, an archer just has their single-target stun. When you look at it from this perspective, WIZARDS play more of a support role than archers do.

In terms of dd, wizards come into their own when we scale up the group vs group situation---aka, TW. In TW, there are enough people packed together that the wizard's superiority in hard-hitting, practical aoes starts to really show. Whereas in the smaller groups archers are doing most of the real damage, the larger the group, the more wizards aoes increase their damage output relative to archers.


3) It is FAR easier to remove or block debuffs than it is to reapply buffs. Even with the advent of spirit of defense, you have to wait 2 minutes to reapply a full complement of buffs. If your apoth is on cooldown/others are too busy to rebuff you, then you simply go without. During this time you take far greater damage from EVERYBODY.

In comparison, when a wizard debuffs you, you can instantly remove or block the debuff in a variety of ways, including belief, triple spark, cleric purify, purify proc on weapon, sage mystic heal, sage psychic heal, archer double spark... to list a few. Furthermore, the fire debuff is only useful for ONE class and ONE class only. That's right, only wizards do appreciable fire damage. When you apply the spark debuff, if that debuff is blocked (say, soul of fire) nobody else does increased damage to the target.

I already know your counter-argument, and I won't dispute it: the power of debuffs is in being able to place them on a target when they are most useful. However, this doesn't change the fact that it is harder to reapply buffs than it is to remove debuffs---especially for a cleric!

~

1) Whoever said anyone can purge is a moron and needs to quit the game. There are 4 classes that can and will purge, if they know how to play, and one that can purge if needs be, and i sincerely hope you know which they are.

In your example "i was unstoppable and eventually won the fight" you were fighting undergeared incompetents. there isn't single scenario where 20 endgame DDs would all be unable to purge you AND unable to simply nuke you into the floor. So unless you're going to give examples of situations that somewhat resemble the situation you're discussing, please don't.

You're also not considering sharding in this argument, which means you're neatly skipping over the part where a wiz can actually afford to play full DS and have no problem. Wiz defs are so much better than archer defs it's not even funny. Even if you purge them, their defs are still roughly the same as the archer's, and archers don't have a puri proc, or a selfbuff that adds 120% to their lowest def, or a selfbuff that will purify them and port them back if you hit them with a normal shot. As a result, they also don't play full dex genies, which means they can't remove stuns as easily as wizzies can, all of which means that getting a wizzy to stay where you can kill him is much, much harder than doing the same with an archer.

2) What do you mean shared metal defense debuffs? Not needing to reapply the metal defense debuff makes NO difference if i'm using metal to deal damage. I'll be recasting that skill myself ANYWAY. Shared Spark/Undine, THAT's a threat. If you're going to claim 10 archers will rip anything apart, please consider 10 wizzies are enough to keep spark up permanently. Also, mortal reversion. Add to that that taking out a high priority target in TW usually starts with killing the buff hoars and sending a purge bot, and your argument is done for.

As for wizards playing more of a support role: Has anyone EVER asked an endgame wiz "hey dude, i need an aoe stun over there, can you drop me an MS?" That's what we have BMs for. Also, you've a little something going on here where you're ignoring the chi cost on the wizard skills, and claiming it as a problem for the archers.

FoW vs Stunning arrow... yeah. That weird morai skill requires you to be exactly where you didn't want to go... All the others have only a chance to work (20% in the case of demon stone rain, super reliable, yo.) Gush...? 3 second sleep.... wat?

That awkward moment when a lot of people are packed together and the archer completely forgets he can BoA. Just forget how to archer for a moment, why don't you.

3) Just about everything that will block a debuff will also block a purge, unless you intend to get some really specific genie skills. (All immunes and Faith will block purge if you use Faith preemptively, but it also stops you from getting AD unless you're 105, and the things you can do with a Faith/AD genie are somewhat limited) Or use purification balm (in which case you might as well pan gu preemptively or simply use a buff pill.

Since most people don't get enough cleric time to have spark wiped off them before they die, and chances of combining spark with purge are much better than the inverse, i'd say that you're more likely to get your buffs back than you are to survive a spark from a decent wiz, assuming endgame gear.

Also, assuming non endgame gear, if a wiz takes about 50% longer than an archer to hit a target, you'll notice that undine and the decent chance to crit for a ton puts FAR more people in your 1shot range, so you end up killing faster. Also, it takes more skill to block a wiz than to do the same for an archer (auto potting def charms won't cut it against a wiz)

opkossy

Sint - Harshlands wrote: »

1) Whoever said anyone can purge is a moron and needs to quit the game. There are 4 classes that can and will purge, if they know how to play, and one that can purge if needs be, and i sincerely hope you know which they are.

Eruption Fist is a thing.
It exists on genies.
Genies can be used on anyone.
Anyone who feels like putting it on their genie has a purge chance available to them.
Whether or not this is smart, good, or so on, is entirely up for debate and up to the person using the genie.


*wanders off*

Fae_Harpy - Archosaur

"Archers can purge"

Every time I see this comment I want to beat my head repeatedly into my desk. Archers can't purge s**t. They have bows available to them that can purge, but archers themselves can't. So in truth, any class that feels like using enough dex to equip a purge bow, can purge (except seekers, sorry PWI screwed you there).

And as OPKossy said there is also a genie skill that does that. I know a couple hardcore PKers that keep a Longevity genie in their inventory just for that skill.

HideYoHubby - Archosaur

OPKossy wrote: »

Eruption Fist is a thing.
It exists on genies.
Genies can be used on anyone.
Anyone who feels like putting it on their genie has a purge chance available to them.
Whether or not this is smart, good, or so on, is entirely up for debate and up to the person using the genie.


*wanders off*

It ties your genie down for far too long. 10% odds to purge, 100 - 20 = 80 energy/use(level 100 genie bonus). 800 stamina (Purges once every 10 tries on average) - starting ~150 = 650 stamina to regen. You can prolly close to 3energy/s regen if you stat it to pretty much mag alone with the cheap vit points. 650/3 = 216,7s. Lets say 217s. Which is 3mins37s to purge on average, completely exhausting genie for that period - Bit longer as it requires time to recharge. Well lets say you got high lp genie with gear, we can prolly get to 3min per purge.

There really is no debate. To have "decent purge genie" it has to be statted in a way, which restricts the genie itself quite a bit. Not too much for those who like mag/vit genie already, though high lp to have room for it. Even with best case scenario genie, the resources to purge are just far too high for it to be worth it outside handful of situations. And the thing is, after purge you cant swap genie due battle state, thus removing option to purge and swap genie.

@Fae: Most of archos "HC PKers" are just idiots. Since Conrad (Yoonashi) quit I havent really faced anybody who simply just outplays me whenever I have poked in PK. And thats from somebody who considers himself averagish PKer. Yes, we got some who wipe everything whenever they show up but the reliance on gear on them is pretty absurd. Seriously, half the people some consider amazing in PK would be the dumb kids people point and laugh at if it wasnt for top tier gear. We dont have great PvPers on server, we got Zheiis who get rolled when they 2 vs 1 people both of them outgear. But that being said, just cause some of "Archos HC PKers" use purge genie really isnt an argument for using one.

Edit: While I disagree with Sints opinions a lot, his right bout the classes, which can purge. The genie purge wastes too much resources to be worth it, if you can use it reliably to beat somebody, you could reliably bet them w/o purge genie. Only exception being afk targets, who happen to be buffed pretty much.

Adroit - Lost City

HideYoHubby - Archosaur wrote: »

It ties your genie down for far too long. 10% odds to purge, 100 - 20 = 80 energy/use(level 100 genie bonus). 800 stamina (Purges once every 10 tries on average) - starting ~150 = 650 stamina to regen. You can prolly close to 3energy/s regen if you stat it to pretty much mag alone with the cheap vit points. 650/3 = 216,7s. Lets say 217s. Which is 3mins37s to purge on average, completely exhausting genie for that period - Bit longer as it requires time to recharge. Well lets say you got high lp genie with gear, we can prolly get to 3min per purge.

There really is no debate. To have "decent purge genie" it has to be statted in a way, which restricts the genie itself quite a bit. Not too much for those who like mag/vit genie already, though high lp to have room for it. Even with best case scenario genie, the resources to purge are just far too high for it to be worth it outside handful of situations. And the thing is, after purge you cant swap genie due battle state, thus removing option to purge and swap genie.

@Fae: Most of archos "HC PKers" are just idiots. Since Conrad (Yoonashi) quit I havent really faced anybody who simply just outplays me whenever I have poked in PK. And thats from somebody who considers himself averagish PKer. Yes, we got some who wipe everything whenever they show up but the reliance on gear on them is pretty absurd. Seriously, half the people some consider amazing in PK would be the dumb kids people point and laugh at if it wasnt for top tier gear. We dont have great PvPers on server, we got Zheiis who get rolled when they 2 vs 1 people both of them outgear. But that being said, just cause some of "Archos HC PKers" use purge genie really isnt an argument for using one.

Edit: While I disagree with Sints opinion a lot, his right bout the classes, which can purge. The genie purge wastes too much resources to be worth it, if you can use it reliably to beat somebody, you could reliably bet them w/o purge genie. Only exception being afk targets, who happen to be buffed pretty much.

It probably isn't worth it in group pvp.. but eruption fist can be extremely useful in 1v1s. There are some targets like end game bms that use full buff pots.. where unless they go afk, you basically need a purge to kill them.

HideYoHubby - Archosaur

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

It probably isn't worth it in group pvp.. but eruption fist can be extremely useful in 1v1s. There are some targets like end game bms that use full buff pots.. where unless they go afk, you basically need a purge to kill them.

Buff pot got 2min cd, purge "cd" is 3mins. If you cant kill them w/o purging, I have trouble seeing scenario where purge genie would allow it. Sure, luckboxing is always an option but I find relying on purge genie highly ineffective tactic as its not only your only offensive move from genie, it also takes away all the defensive genie moves.

opkossy

HideYoHubby - Archosaur wrote: »

*snip*

And the very fact that

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

*also snip*

Can be given as a counter point is exactly why I added in

OPKossy wrote: »

Whether or not this is smart, good, or so on, is entirely up for debate and up to the person using the genie.

at the bottom of my post.

It has its uses for certain classes in certain situations so it can, in fact, be debated. Because of that, making a statement claiming that a person saying anyone can purge is a moron and needs to quit is false regardless of personal opinion on the validity of the skill.

The personal opinion bit, by the way, being why I did not post my own opinion since, as I said, that's up for debate and up to the person using it at the end of the day.

Adroit - Lost City

HideYoHubby - Archosaur wrote: »

Buff pot got 2min cd, purge "cd" is 3mins. If you cant kill them w/o purging, I have trouble seeing scenario where purge genie would allow it. Sure, luckboxing is always an option but I find relying on purge genie highly ineffective tactic.

Easy, get them to half.. sleep -> MS (or bids) and purge at last second before it lands. If purge procs, almost guaranteed bypass.. if not then try again next time. I have a friend that I was fighting and testing that strategy that just began to faith every sleep -> MS combo.. so I'd just not use eruption fist and cancel the MS at the last second.. he'd waste faith and I'd try again after genie was out (sometimes with no chan pot to get a quick hit off). The trick is to beat their reaction time, and there are several options (at least for wiz) to do this. Another fun one is just begin a sutra spark combo and throw in a purge attempt after I see sof.. which has caught a number of people off guard in the past and led to some wins against tanky opponents

HideYoHubby - Archosaur

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

Easy, get them to half.. sleep -> MS (or bids) and purge at last second before it lands. If purge procs, almost guaranteed bypass.. if not then try again next time. I have a friend that I was fighting and testing that strategy that just began to faith every sleep -> MS combo.. so I'd just not use eruption fist and cancel the MS at the last second.. he'd waste faith and I'd try again after genie was out (sometimes with no chan pot to get a quick hit off). The trick is to beat their reaction time, and there are several options (at least for wiz) to do this. Another fun one is just begin a sutra spark combo and throw in a purge attempt after I see sof.. which has caught a number of people off guard in the past and led to some wins against tanky opponents

I havent touched wizzie since 2008 or smth when I got tired of how how slow leveling was to ~lvl 20. I got idea what they can do to me and what to watch out for but thats bout it. I would still assume simple perma EP might work somewhat decently outside super tanky people if one doesnt have to think using genie defensively. I simply dont think its worth it to put something on genie, which you will only use in very specific set of circumstances and even then it will only purge once every 10 tries. Out of curiosity, is it feasible to spark + ep from genie or is energy use bit too much for it to be appealing?

Baiting genie has few flaws, one being some are quite willing to play the 90% odds game, depends on player of course. Other being for it to work, the opponent has to follow your lead so to say and not do their own thing. Not to forget they have to understand what you are bluffing to do, which will not happen with your average PWI player. I simply see the uses for genie purge so specific I believe its waste for vast majority of playerbase.

Ps. I got few sapphire gems on my sins armor set but they work/were worth it for very specific set of reasons and I wouldnt of suggested others to follow me on that one when it had its reasons, which are now mostly killed with new gear standards, meridians & avatars of war.

Adroit - Lost City

HideYoHubby - Archosaur wrote: »

I havent touched wizzie since 2008 or smth when I got tired of how how slow leveling was to ~lvl 20. I got idea what they can do to me and what to watch out for but thats bout it. I would still assume simple perma EP might work somewhat decently outside super tanky people if one doesnt have to think using genie defensively. I simply dont think its worth it to put something on genie, which you will only use in very specific set of circumstances and even then it will only purge once every 10 tries.

Baiting genie has few flaws, one being some are quite willing to play the 90% odds game, depends on player of course. Other being for it to work, the opponent has to follow your lead so to say and not do their own thing. Not to forget they have to understand what you are bluffing to do, which will not happen with your average PWI player. I simply see the uses for genie purge so specific I believe its waste for vast majority of playerbase.

Ps. I got few sapphire gems on my sins armor set but they work/were worth it for very specific set of reasons and I wouldnt of suggested others to follow me on that one when it had its reasons, which are now mostly killed with new gear standards, meridians & avatars of war.

Well, being that I have played wiz for quite a while.. I can tell you that extreme poison + undine is not going to be anywhere near enough damage to kill an endgame bm that is buffed (assuming it isn't a total derp). There are other classes that I'm sure would fall into the same category, but most of the time it just makes killing someone easier.

Baiting an opponent is only done against someone that consistently uses stuff preemptively; I default to just trying to land everything.. but if they block it a few times I'll go ahead and try baiting them.. it just depends on the opponent. If they are someone that plays the 90% odds game, I'll just keep using it.. and eventually they'll die. If they aren't willing to play that game and try to resist it (generally the better players in my experience), I'll just bait their genie at least once every 2 mins.. which gives them less genie to use offensively, and leaves them very vulnerable for a bit after they blew all their genie energy. Either way it is a win-win for me, and definitely a reason to have it for tough 1v1s. There are times I don't even need to use it, but just having it available on my genie can change the fight.