Questions about sins and PVE damage + gear

Colum - Raging Tide

Ok so I did do a little research to find answers for my questions but I didnt quite find out what I wanted to know. I'd also like some good explanations / math done to prove these if anyone can since Im not a math genius.

Basic info about my sin:

Currently lvl 97 demon sin with 1.82 base aps, I'm planning to go 5 aps but the progress be a bit slow, my first aim is proper T2 daggers and TT 99 pieces + T2 legs to start out with and I'll get the rest when I can and replace wraithgate robe to Lunar.

I'll be able to have good refines on armors and +10 refines on daggers as a starter. My sin is purely for PVE purposes since I'm making another sin for PVP.

Question time!

1. Which is better, T2 -int + zerk or T3 daggers?

2. What is the best spark dps combo solo/DD wise assuming I dont have to debuff for the squad, just to amp my own damage as high as possible? Such as:
- emblem + spark + inner + pdash + enrage + mire + ep
- emblem + spark + inner + subsea + enrage + mire
- emblem + spark + enrage + EP + mire
(or something else like this)

3. Which combo is best for debuff wise when squad needs amped dmg?

Thank you and I'll appreciate the answers b:cute

WannaBM - Archosaur

1. Zerk offers 20% chance to deal double damage and thus 20% damage increase.
T3 offers 40 attack levels. If you would already have 100 attack levels, this would also be a 20% increase. However you have less than 100 attack levels, so the attack levels offer more than 20%. On top of that, T3 offers about 10% better base damage and refines. With a typical sin going from about 40 to 80 attack levels, This increases your damage output from 140 to 180% base. Almost a 30% increase. Together with the 10% better attack, that totals for slightly over 40% vs 20% on the G15. Thus the T3 should be slightly over 20% better than T2 zerk.

2. I am not going to answer your question in the form it is asked. I think it is more situational what you want you want to combine and also i am not a sin so i cant think of all the situational circumstances. Ill help you a bit with the numbers though.

Powerdash is pretty big. It roughly doubles your crit rate from 40 to 80%. This increases your damage output from 140 to 180% base. Almost a 30% increase. This is a very significant skill when you are doing mobless FW for example since now those 8 seconds duration are all that matter.

Subsea is a kind of mini HF. If you are solo, it will do about the same as for you as powerdash. If you are with a team however, it also increases their damage. Still, i told you Pdash is important for mobless FW because subsea does not stack with extreme poison and normally there will be someone using EP in your squad.

Enrage (Frenzy) increases your attack levels by 20 on top of already 80 if you have G16. So that is about a 11% damage increase at the cost of defences and for a pretty short time at significant energy cost. Not the greatest skill imo. When soloing the short duration and small damage bonus make its effect rather limited. On top of that you might need your defences too. For mobless it could by a bit helpfull since you are protected by IG anyway and again, the battle is just as short as the duration. Still not a skill id give high priority for occupying my genie slots.

Mire does a moderate damage increase. The exact amount depends on the mobs armor. Expect something around 15%. 20% or so with a strength genie. On top of that however, it makes you 100% accurate on the mobs. Now sins were pretty close to that already of course. If you play with a team and want to optimize, make sure not to overwrite mire from another player with more str on his genie.

EP is another moderate damage increase. It doesnt stack with subsea and it has a short duration. Some dex on your genie really helps this skill. But there are other, more important reasons to want a mag/vit genie.

All these factors are multiplied. So a 20% bonus and a 30% bonus do not total to 50% bonus but to 1.2*1.3 = 1.56 or a 56% bonus.

So all together your first combination would be the best as it allows you to totally drain your genie with 3 skills and still use a 2 spark bonus skill yourself. However, you often might want to save your genie energy for TOP/AD rather than these enhancement skills and you might consider other skills more important to be on your genie than frenzy. A good vit genie can cast mire or EP and still have energy to cast AD/TOP. For this reason + the fact that more mag/vit is more often TOP/AD, i think you really want a mag/vit genie.

When in squad it all depends on what skills others can cast with their genies and who has str/dex on their genie.

Colum - Raging Tide

Thank you for the answers, WannaBM. It clears lot of things up.

I'm stlll wondering though, does it mean pdash combo is more effective than those 15 hits or so you'd get with 5 aps if you werent using it?

Salari - Raging Tide

working on a vid for you Colum using just aps, with pd and with ss will post it in a bit

Salari - Raging Tide

here is the test video, using an amp gives more dmg for sure, just which you will use you just need to test out to see.

http://youtu.be/fmGMF8l1OHU

__Sami__ - Archosaur

Colum - Raging Tide wrote: »

Thank you for the answers, WannaBM. It clears lot of things up.

I'm stlll wondering though, does it mean pdash combo is more effective than those 15 hits or so you'd get with 5 aps if you werent using it?

With the ping Im playing, my personal experience is you wont gain anything with powerdash. Also its 2 sparks, if your doing anything remotely challenging, I would save my chi skills for when I need it to spark. Only exception would be playing in squad and short debuffs stacked with powerdash duration but meh, would require pretty perfect timing.

opkossy

Colum - Raging Tide wrote: »

Thank you for the answers, WannaBM. It clears lot of things up.

I'm stlll wondering though, does it mean pdash combo is more effective than those 15 hits or so you'd get with 5 aps if you werent using it?

Depends. With wolf emblem and other debuffs applied? You'll likely make up those attacks within the first second or two.

Standalone? It depends more on your base crit as powerdash is going to be less of a boost the higher your base crit is. Especially if you'd go above the crit cap from using it (in which case, subsea is the better option for damage).

hypereccentrik

OPKossy wrote: »

Depends. With wolf emblem and other debuffs applied? You'll likely make up those attacks within the first second or two.

Standalone? It depends more on your base crit as powerdash is going to be less of a boost the higher your base crit is. Especially if you'd go above the crit cap from using it (in which case, subsea is the better option for damage).

If you don't mind me asking, what is the crit capped at?

opkossy

95% is the cap.

Colum - Raging Tide

Hm I see so if I want to aim for maximal DPS I assue it's situational whether to use pdash/ss or not.

Salari - Raging Tide

Colum - Raging Tide wrote: »

Hm I see so if I want to aim for maximal DPS I assue it's situational whether to use pdash/ss or not.

Yes it is situational a lot of times if you use either of those 2 amps or none at all. But they will always increase dps except what OPKossey posted. If you look at my other videos there is one that i am doing vial cannon. He is a one spark kill if timed right. In my video he wasnt because i was to far away when I sparked. I do considerable more dmg now since i posted that vid

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

45% crit rate is what I stop at in APS gear since im sage. So i prefer raw Physical atk rings (OHT g13 +212 phy atk). WE+Powerdash+EP+Mire for demons give more damage than WE+SS(lv10)+mire.

peckked

How does one get 45% crit rate in aps gear? With demon pure dex build (with restat) you're looking at about 36-38%... even with r93 at 6% that's only 44%. As sage you lose 2% because difference in dagger devotion. Not saying it's not possible.. just wanna know how.

opkossy

peckked wrote: »

How does one get 45% crit rate in aps gear?

Engraves and good stat rolls on your gear. That's without things like optimizing stats completely (Had more room for lowering str and getting useful gear stats on that calc), endgame tomes (dominance and emperor both offer more str/dex/crit), or R8R gear with +dex/crit and interval, among other things I could have likely done.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

OPKossy wrote: »

Engraves and good stat rolls on your gear. That's without things like optimizing stats completely (Had more room for lowering str and getting useful gear stats on that calc), endgame tomes (dominance and emperor both offer more str/dex/crit), or R8R gear with +dex/crit and interval, among other things I could have likely done.

R9rr dags with +5% crit, g16 helm with 22 dex, and +1% crit on tt99 neck as engraving. I also use r9 and r8 rings since i sold my pdef ring. I have 460 dex in my aps gear, yet i still have the base min req for my gear .

peckked

Thank you OPKossy! But Dion you're build doesn't add up to 45%.

Okay.. so is it fair to say that sense it's unrealistic to have MORE than 45% crit anyway with traditional APS set, as it requires an emperor/dominance tome to exceed (in which case you're doing enough damage amps don't so much matter) sage power dash will always see it's full benefit?

Oh and I should mention I have 526 dex with my aps gear with 23 dex between crappy neck and ring engraves. And 6% crit on my weapon.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

peckked wrote: »

Thank you OPKossy! But Dion you're build doesn't add up to 45%.

Okay.. so is it fair to say that sense it's unrealistic to have MORE than 45% crit anyway with traditional APS set, as it requires an emperor/dominance tome to exceed (in which case you're doing enough damage amps don't so much matter) sage power dash will always see it's full benefit?

Oh and I should mention I have 526 dex with my aps gear with 23 dex between crappy neck and ring engraves. And 6% crit on my weapon.

I just reread that XD. I dont have 45% crit rate. I have 42%. Sorry if I made you guys think I did.

I was stating that's where I stop at being sage. Unfortunately some of my gears have crit engraving when I wanted Vit. However to get more than that requires lv8 and 9 tomes.

peckked

Okay.. so probably not something to worry about then lol... I just wondered when you mentioned using alternate rings to the more common r9/r8/sky cover variety as the alternatives are fun.. but not so great after all is said and done unless you're 45% crit without them.. and using power dash... I guess what I'm saying is those alternative rings with exception perhaps for the lunar one (Wang's Precious Ring) aren't really good options for most people if they have or can get the more common ones. Even less of a real viable option considering the low chance to get oht rings with anywhere close to 200 phys atk.

opkossy

Yeah. Unless you've heavily invested in the character, hitting the crit cap shouldn't be an issue.

On a relevant, yet unrelated note.... for sage powerdash is essentially equal to subsea if you don't plan to EP the boss. However, due to the duration, Demon Subsea winds up providing a greater damage boost than a Sage's subsea for anything that doesn't die very quickly. Granted, a power dash + EP combo will be better than either when alone, but if in a squad and a Demon sin has subsea, let them use it unless the boss is something that can be killed easily regardless or the squad plans to use EP anyway.

peckked

That's something that's always confused me.

Assuming 45% crit, overtime you'll do 1.45x damage as a factor for all other variables. Using sage powerdash this brings it up to 1.95. Sage subsea, however, takes 1.45 and gives it a 50% boost which would come out to being 2.175... sounds like a significant difference to me. Obviously changes once extreme poison is involved.

Oh and since we're talking extreme poison, sage subsea followed by extreme poison is still better than demon Also if a bm has good timing with dragons sage subsea is still the better option with or without following it up with ep.

Edit: Seems I'm wrong in how I pieced together how I come up with the damage factor as I forgot wolf emblem, however it still leans in favor of sage subsea at a factor of 2.31 vs sage powerdash (w/o ep) at a factor of 2.14.

Edit 2: Come to think of it wouldn't demon subsea end up with wasted non-sparked (or sparking) seconds if done after 3 sparking? And if they subsea'd before wouldn't it just be marginally better than level 10?

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

peckked wrote: »

That's something that's always confused me.

Assuming 45% crit, overtime you'll do 1.45x damage as a factor for all other variables. Using sage powerdash this brings it up to 1.95. Sage subsea, however, takes 1.45 and gives it a 50% boost which would come out to being 2.175... sounds like a significant difference to me. Obviously changes once extreme poison is involved.

Oh and since we're talking extreme poison, sage subsea followed by extreme poison is still better than demon Also if a bm has good timing with dragons sage subsea is still the better option with or without following it up with ep.

Edit: Seems I'm wrong in how I pieced together how I come up with the damage factor as I forgot wolf emblem, however it still leans in favor of sage subsea at a factor of 2.31 vs sage powerdash (w/o ep) at a factor of 2.14.

Edit 2: Come to think of it wouldn't demon subsea end up with wasted non-sparked (or sparking) seconds if done after 3 sparking? And if they subsea'd before wouldn't it just be marginally better than level 10?

Which is why the WE (before fight)>Spark>IH>>Ep+Mire>Powerdash> Auto atk combo beings better results seeing as the demon eruption attack boost is more valuable than the SS.