Jades vs vits redux

alphasinbm

In regards to this thread , I'd like more information about this. Is vit really practically just as good as jades (marginally less than jades for a fraction of the price?)

I assume that this is the case because archer defenses are already so low unlike a HA class and we get more hp per vit than an arcane (which is why jades is better on an arcane)

opkossy

And a new thread for you as I don't want to deal with zombies today.

Jarkhen - Archosaur

inb4 close for necro
EDIT: ninja'd by Kossy

alphasinbm wrote: »

Bump , I'd like more information about this. Is vit really practically just as good as jades (marginally less than jades for a fraction of the price?)

I assume that this is the case because archer defenses are already so low unlike a HA class and we get more hp per vit than an arcane (which is why jades is better on an arcane)

Against non-deity sharded opponents, jades still have a significant advantage over vits while buffed. The difference is significantly smaller while unbuffed, but jades still typically come out on top. Deity-sharded opponents will bring the difference down to near zero, or possibly in favor of vits.

On the other hand, deity sharded players aren't extremely common (not on Archo anyway). My plan remains to go jades since they provide significantly better protection against people I typically go up against in TW (hordes of non-deity r9r3s or g16s), and I'm rarely purged for very long in TW anyway.

For reference: Asterelle's socket calculator for my current (r9r3+11, NW upgrades) build.

freygin

I can do a damage simulator test if you give me pwcalc link to one build for an attacker and another a defender with 2 builds (josd and vit sharded) for testing how much damage the attacker will deal to both builds.

I ever did a test myself but still josd won in many cases, and also in the long run charm usage is far less using josd than vit since it absorbs more damage while having less hp.

oh btw Aeliah gave me a pwcalc link to his cleric build, so I can use that for attacker, just give me 2 pwcalc links to a same geared archer with different sharding, josd and vit stones.



this will probably help you with an illustration about how josd/vit will help you in your defense, it's a wall of text lol.

- in this game we have max armor defense at 90% , so damage received will be only 10% (you need 37.575 defense/magic defense to reach that percentage lol) , 10k will give you around 70% armor defense redux, the damage received will be only 30%.

- endgame character can have like 25k-30k damage in char info, lets take the max value 30k , pvp damage is only at 25% from it for normal attack. So an endgame char can have like 7500 pvp damage. If you were hit with a normal atk by a character with 30k damage in char info, the damage you receive will be 30% from 7500 = 2250 , at crit it will be 4500, zerk-crit = 9000.

- then we have atk level and def level. The way I see it, the point of attack level is to reduce armor defense redux as much as possible. It amplify the damage by (A-D) % , so if the attacker has like 100 attack level and you have full josd (48 max for 24 open sockets), the active atk level is 100-42=58, means it amplify the damage by 58%, 2250 x 1.58 = 3555.

- or in general, at 10k defense armor you have 70% reduction and only 30% damage will be dealt to you. No matter how much the damage is , it is 30%, but with 58 atk level, the damage will be 30% x 1.58 = 47.4%. See how your armor defense redux from 70% now became 100-47.4= 52.6%

conclusion :
if you are fully buffed and have 10k hp 10k defense and you choose josd (48 def level) , and an archer with 100 atk level and 30k dmg hit you with his normal atk, you will receive 3555 damage or 7110 crit. One crit + one non crit will kill you.

if you are fully buffed and have 10k hp 10k defense and you choose full vit (240 vit = 3120 hp) now you have 14.212 hp and your defense will slightly increased, now at 11.175(72.8%) because of bonus from vit , then the same archer hit you, since you have no defense level his active atk level is still 100, means 100% more damage or twice the damage, your armor defense redux from 72.8% now became 100-(27.2*2)=45.6%. The damage is 54.4% from 7500 = 4080. One crit + one non crit will NOT kill you.

spoiler bb code is not in effect here ?

Anhka - Sanctuary

Well, when one has 10k hp buffed, the gear is garbage as that's ~7k hp unbuffed, that's why Jade would not be better as vit stones add a lot of fixed hp.

Try again at 20k hp buffed, and as you've stated before, Jade would win.

opkossy

freygin wrote: »

spoiler bb code is not in effect here ?

Nope. Closest we have for reducing the page length is the code... well... code.

... Good grief that sounds redundant when typed out.

Or in the case of wanting text to be "invisible" the color code my title is in.

freygin

Yea agree, I randomly picked 10k 10k just now. That's why I asked a pwcalc link for both attacker and defender from alphasinbm that he might want to test.

Let's try again this time with 20k hp, both are archers.

Attacker : 30k dmg normal hit (7500 pvp dmg), 100 atk level, crit 50% to make it easier.

Defender with Josd fully buffed
Hp : 20.000 , Def : 10.000 (70%)
dmg received per normal atk = 3555 , crit = 7110
3555 7110 7110 3555 = 21.330 dead in 4 hits
with charm : 3555 7110, charm ticks, 3555 7110 7110 3555 , dead in 6 hits.


Defender with Vit stones fully buffed 40% more hp from barb buff and cube neck (forgot to add cube neck in previous example)
Hp : 20.000 + 4368 = 24.368 , Def 10.000 (70%) + bonus def from 240 vit = around 72.8%
dmg received per normal atk = 4080, crit = 8160
4080 8160 8160 4080 = 24.480 , also dead in 4 hits
with charm : 4080 8160, charm ticks, 4080 8160 8160 4080, also dead in 6 hits.

It's on par in this example with josd wins because of less charm usage, but vit stone is cheaper.



let's try again with no atk rank for the attacker, and see how both shards will perform.
Attacker : 30k dmg normal hit (7500 pvp dmg), 0 atk level, crit 50% to make it easier.

Defender with Josd fully buffed 20k hp, 70% def redux
dmg received per normal atk = 1428 , crit 2855
1428 2855 1428 2855 1428 2855 1428 2855 1428 2855 =21415 , dead in 10 hits.

Defender with vit stones fully buffed 24.368 hp, 72.8% def redux
dmg received per normal atk = 2040, crit 4080
2040 4080 2040 4080 2040 4080 2040 4080 = 24.480 , dead in 8 hits.

in this example, josd wins.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

You are buffing hp, but 10k defense buffed is ridiculously low. Choose a more accurate value... lets see, 20k hp, I'm assuming endgame archer.. buffed physical defense should be, I dunno at least 22k? Should probably use a more accurate defense value if you want something close to reality.

What I constantly remind people of is that there are side benefits and disadvantages to being jades that aren't so obvious.

Examples:

1) its easier for me to heal a person with lower hp. If two builds have similar survivability but one has lower hp/takes lower values of damage, the lower hp one is easier to keep alive with spot heals. Same is true for hp pots.

2) certain attacks ignore defense levels. For these attacks vit builds are superior, since vit increases hp and moderately increases defense. Examples of such skills are mark of weakness, blade tornado, and absorb soul.

Even for barbs, jades are probably better. Why? A buffed barb isn't dying *anyways*. Fully buffed endgame barbs just... well really don't die, do they. So whether a vit build barb who is buffed has a slight edge in survivability isn't really relevant. What is relevant is that jades barbs survive better purged. And, again, they are much easier for a cleric to keep alive... my heals are strong, but still have caps on how much they heal, and as a % of your hp, my heals will do more good if you have lower hp/higher defense lvl than higher hp/lower defense levels.

Long story short, jades are pretty much always better at endgame.

Jarkhen - Archosaur

A 20k HP buffed archer (~+10 armor) is going to have around either 14k or 18k pdef buffed, depending on what neck they're using.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

What is relevant is that jades barbs survive better purged.

While I agree with the rest of your post:

Jades actually provide more of a benefit to buffed players. Vits and jades are closer when you are unbuffed.

freygin

yea I agree josd are the best in most situations, even though it has its downside, the only problem is it's way too expensive and people can use alternative like vit stones if they haven't acquired the last endgame gears, twice josd-ing 2 sets of armors isn't funny.

btw mark of weakness does not completely ignore def levels, it's kinda using our atk level if the target has higher defense level, but still it has its advantage against an opponent with high def level.

__Sami__ - Archosaur

http://pwcalc.com/d57a614dd82705bd

NW gear, +11 refines, bow + ring +12, vit stones. Oh and fully buffed. Missing Meridians though, which will be pushing hp closer and closer to 30k, I think you needed full meridian and 2 pieces to +12 to break 30k fully buffed. Of course you dont need those +12 pieces in TW/NW due NW buffs. All in all, if you can afford jades, go for them, I would rather go +12 with vit stones than +11 with jades, which is pretty much the difference.

Those R9T3 rolls are my friends stats, boots have tomes +hp, no engravings, havent adjusted N3 rolls to anything reasonable yet. Still lots to farm and sell, I got my 4 sock helm and stars destinyt(+10) atm but hopefully by new years all I need to do is sell TT mats and buy the ****, which prolly takes few months.

Ps. After full +12 I would prolly go piece by piece to deity and transfer to jades when full if I dont like it.

freygin

@__Sami__ : are you the thread starter using your other alt ? below is the result comparing josd/vit stones, real world performance in the game might vary, it's just an example.

Attacker (cleric) , doesn't matter fully buffed or not, only spirit gift for matk buff.

This Cleric build will be used as attacker http://pwcalc.com/5410d55c07a2588d

Magic classes don't have normal attack, so damage will be calculated based on skill description, to do that, we'll need
- Base Magic Damage = 24904 - 30433, average : 27668.5
- Weapon Damage 2856 - 3490, average : 3173
- Constant Skill Damage (sage will be used)

Since there is a range min-max to both base magic dmg and weapon dmg, average values will be used.

The test will be using skill combo until max hp reach 0, cleric has both magical and physical defense debuff and they'll be used. The skill combo is as follow : Elemental Seal , Dimension Seal, ●Plume Shot, ●Wield Thunder , ●Great Cyclone , ●Elven Boon, repeat until target hp reach 0.


Defender 1 (archer) , fully buffed.

This Archer is the one with vit stones http://pwcalc.com/d57a614dd82705bd
HP : 26,692
PDef : 17,264 (80.526%) =>debuffed by Sage Dimension Seal (-40%) = 14,562(77.718%)
Mdef : 17,961 (81.139%) =>debuffed by Sage Elemental Seal (-35%) = 14,708(77.89%)
Def Level : 47
Bonus Physical Damage Reduction : 1% (from helm)

let's begin cleric's attack :
●Plume Shot deals 3323 damage, hp : 23369
●Wield Thunder deals 4799 damage, hp : 18570
●Great Cyclone deals 4067 damage, hp : 14503
●Elven Boon deals 4067 damage, hp : 10436
●Plume Shot deals 3323 damage, hp : 7133
●Wield Thunder deals 4799 damage, hp : 2314
●Great Cyclone deals 4067 damage, hp : 0
dead in 7 hits.

Defender 2 (archer) , fully buffed.

This Archer is the one with josd http://pwcalc.com/eddf89911cde7dc7
HP : 22,168
PDef : 15,887 (79.19%) =>debuffed by Sage Dimension Seal (-40%) = 13,236(76.021%)
Mdef : 16.064 (79.372%) =>debuffed by Sage Elemental Seal (-35%) = 13.275(76.074%)
Def Level : 95
Bonus Physical Damage Reduction : 1% (from helm)

let's begin cleric's attack :
●Plume Shot deals 2578 damage, hp : 19590
●Wield Thunder deals 3744 damage, hp : 15846
●Great Cyclone deals 3172 damage, hp : 12674
●Elven Boon deals 3172 damage, hp : 9502
●Plume Shot deals 2578 damage, hp : 6924
●Wield Thunder deals 3744 damage, hp : 3180
●Great Cyclone deals 3172 damage, hp : 8 (lol almost dead)
●Elven Boon deals 3172 damage, hp : 0
dead in 8 hits.

josd wins by a small margin.

__Sami__ - Archosaur

freygin wrote: »

@__Sami__ : are you the thread starter using your other alt ? below is the result comparing josd/vit stones, real world performance in the game might vary, it's just an example.

Uh no, just thought to throw the calc as I happened to have one reasonably well fit for situation bookmarked.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

Jarkhen - Archosaur wrote: »

While I agree with the rest of your post:

Jades actually provide more of a benefit to buffed players. Vits and jades are closer when you are unbuffed.

How is this possible? You get better gain from buffs with vit build. The INCREASE of the stat should be greater, and therefore vit build loses more when purged... the reason I say the increase in stats should be greater buffed is because vit points add to your base hp, and to your base defenses. It is these stats that buffs modify. Higher base, the more you gain with % modifiers, For example, 35% bonus to 30k hp is greater than 35% bonus to 25k hp. Bigger gain with buffs. Bigger gain when buffed, bigger loss when purged.

Your possible partial counter argument could be for defense buffs. This is iffy, since vit doesn't add *that* much to base defenses, so the so-called 'diminishing effect' of increased defense should be barely noticeable. And even so, my point still stands: vit buff build LOSES more defense when purged.

You state that jades are superior buffed, and yet clearly vit build LOSES more defense/hp when purged. Ergo, if both of these statements are true, then jades are clearly superior unbuffed as well, and nobody should ever bother with vits for any reason. However it makes more sense to look at it from unbuffed first, then add buffs. Unbuffed, jades are better (assumption). With buffs, jades build gains lower value of additional stats due to the buff than vit build. Therefore vit build gains more from buffs than jades build.

Can your logic really be better than this?

freygin

Actually defense gained from vit doesn't get buffed, only hp does. Defense gained from vit cannot be purged. Even debuffs won't reduce defense gained from vit, so it's always there no matter how small.

Cleric Defense buff be it magical or physical says "60% of their equipment value"

Vit doesn't add anything to Equipment Value.

Jarkhen - Archosaur

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Unbuffed, jades are better (assumption).

"assumption" is where you should be realizing there's a problem with your claim.

Not to mention it isn't necessarily true - fighting a psy, a sin, or someone deity sharded (or, especially, both) brings the unbuffed vit-josd difference to near zero, or in some cases actually makes vit > josd (sometimes even when buffed).

Back to the original topic, though.
Here, I put your own build into Asterelle's socket calc for you:

With lv11 buffs:
JoSD: Avg. 28019 survival index
Vit: Avg. 16576 survival index

With lv10 buffs:
JoSD: Avg. 25770 survival index
Vit: Avg. 15484 survival index

Unbuffed:
JoSD: Avg. 13935 survival index
Vit: Avg. 9587 survival index

With lv11 buffs, jades are 69% more effective than vits for your build. With lv10 buffs, that advantage drops to 66.4%. When unbuffed, it drops all the way down to 45.4%.

The difference is even more pronounced when you look at, for example, my archer's current build that I linked earlier in the thread for reference and which you clearly haven't looked at yet: it drops from a 42.5% JOSD advantage with lv11 buffs all the way down to 18.2% when unbuffed.

Jades provide more benefit when buffed because they amplify the effects of your extra defenses.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Can your logic really be better than this?

This is the archer forum. Your vague hand-wavy explanations are no replacement for proper calculations and examples. b:bye

FlyRanger - Dreamweaver

Jarkhen - Archosaur wrote: »

"assumption" is where you should be realizing there's a problem with your claim.

Not to mention it isn't necessarily true - fighting a psy, a sin, or someone deity sharded (or, especially, both) brings the unbuffed vit-josd difference to near zero, or in some cases actually makes vit > josd (sometimes even when buffed).

Back to the original topic, though.
Here, I put your own build into Asterelle's socket calc for you:

With lv11 buffs:
JoSD: Avg. 28019 survival index
Vit: Avg. 16576 survival index

With lv10 buffs:
JoSD: Avg. 25770 survival index
Vit: Avg. 15484 survival index

Unbuffed:
JoSD: Avg. 13935 survival index
Vit: Avg. 9587 survival index

With lv11 buffs, jades are 69% more effective than vits for your build. With lv10 buffs, that advantage drops to 66.4%. When unbuffed, it drops all the way down to 45.4%.

The difference is even more pronounced when you look at, for example, my archer's current build that I linked earlier in the thread for reference and which you clearly haven't looked at yet: it drops from a 42.5% JOSD advantage with lv11 buffs all the way down to 18.2% when unbuffed.

Jades provide more benefit when buffed because they amplify the effects of your extra defenses.



This is the archer forum. Your vague hand-wavy explanations are no replacement for proper calculations and examples. b:bye

Survivability Index also showed I had 0 surviability on a barb when I pumped it to over 140 defence levels and above 50k hp. I can 1 shot Vit builds, but I can't 1 shot Jade Builds...

Jarkhen - Archosaur

FlyRanger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Survivability Index also showed I had 0 surviability on a barb when I pumped it to over 140 defence levels and above 50k hp.

ITT: Integer overflows in ingame displays mean survivability index has no relevance?

FlyRanger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I can 1 shot Vit builds, but I can't 1 shot Jade Builds...

WTB> recording of you oneshotting an endgame vit build barb


Also, how is this at all relevant to our current discussion?

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Jarkhen - Archosaur wrote: »

ITT: Integer overflows in ingame displays mean survivability index has no relevance?



WTB> recording of you oneshotting an endgame vit build barb


Also, how is this at all relevant to our current discussion?

Jarkhen that flew over your head. It would mean jades gives more def.

Jarkhen - Archosaur

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Jarkhen that flew over your head. It would mean jades gives more def.

Nobody is claiming jades don't give more defense except for a few specific scenarios I noted above. What we were discussing was whether jades had more of an advantage over vits when buffed or when unbuffed; and the topic as a whole was about whether the improvement was significant enough to warrant the price difference.

__Sami__ - Archosaur

Jarkhen - Archosaur wrote: »

Nobody is claiming jades don't give more defense except for a few specific scenarios I noted above. What we were discussing was whether jades had more of an advantage over vits when buffed or when unbuffed; and the topic as a whole was about whether the improvement was significant enough to warrant the price difference.

Well actually it depends on refines heavily(defenses). I would say point after which jades beat vit stones on archer is ~+10 but due how much more expensive jades are, I wouldnt call them smart shard till +11-12 refines. And after certain point of attack levels on enemy vit stones will beat jades as jades would be countering attack levels that give marginal increase on damage in relative sense. But the latter has already been considered, just re-stating it.

Ps. Somebody needs to write something bout defense levels on some sticky so our forums visitors are on the map so to say.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

You can show me all the socket calculations you want, but that doesn't really say much to me. I'm not a mathematician, nor does showing me the 'survival index' values mean anything if neither you nor I can say how they were calculated. Ok, maybe you might be able to say how they were calculated, but still the equations won't mean much to me.

WHY does jades gain more survival with buffs? I want the explanation, not the numbers which BACK UP an explanation. You gave me #s without telling me why those numbers are higher for jades build. If all you can say is 'because a formula tells me so' you there's no way you understand either.

Its a no-brainer that a vit-build gains a larger value of hp when buffed than does a jades build. Surely hp factors into survival index. Why then does a jades build show an increasingly higher value of survival index the more potent the buffs? It just doesn't make sense. Vit build gets more hp, but jades build gets more survival. Maybe there is a good explanation, but so far you haven't done a good job of explaining. If you actually do know, please try explaining in a different way. If you don't know, thats ok too...we can ask Asterelle for an explanation perhaps.

FlyRanger - Dreamweaver

I'd almost want to do some damage test vs. Aeliah and Re_Animator to debate this for clerics.


Aeliah is Jade build, Animator is heavy armour and vit build.

I think, even with physical attacks, I could still hit animator quite a bit more than I could on Aeliah, especially when purged.

Jarkhen - Archosaur wrote: »

ITT: Integer overflows in ingame displays mean survivability index has no relevance?



WTB> recording of you oneshotting an endgame vit build barb


Also, how is this at all relevant to our current discussion?

One Shotting Vit Barb

Charm By-Passing Jade barb

__Sami__ - Archosaur

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You can show me all the socket calculations you want, but that doesn't really say much to me. I'm not a mathematician, nor does showing me the 'survival index' values mean anything if neither you nor I can say how they were calculated. Ok, maybe you might be able to say how they were calculated, but still the equations won't mean much to me.

WHY does jades gain more survival with buffs? I want the explanation, not the numbers which BACK UP an explanation. You gave me #s without telling me why those numbers are higher for jades build. If all you can say is 'because a formula tells me so' you there's no way you understand either.

Its a no-brainer that a vit-build gains a larger value of hp when buffed than does a jades build. Surely hp factors into survival index. Why then does a jades build show an increasingly higher value of survival index the more potent the buffs? It just doesn't make sense. Vit build gets more hp, but jades build gets more survival. Maybe there is a good explanation, but so far you haven't done a good job of explaining. If you actually do know, please try explaining in a different way. If you don't know, thats ok too...we can ask Asterelle for an explanation perhaps.

Jarkhen put it shortly, jades amplify defenses. To simplify it, the higher defenses you got, the more advantage damage reduction gives you. At low defenses vit stones actually beat jades as jades require base defenses to amplify. Purge lowers defenses, getting them closer to turning point between jades vs vit stones.

As to why there is a turning point? Vit stones always give the same hp and defenses increase in absolute sense, 10 vit is always 110 hp for archers. While Jades give always the same relative increase. Reductions might be difficult to picture so lets randomly pick 30% more defenses from jades. At 10k hp that would be 3k hp, at 30k that would be 9k hp. While 24 vit stones is the same 2640 hp(unbuffed) whether you have 5k or 30k hp w/o them.

As to why buff increase jades more? Simply because jades work relative and when you get buffed, everything gets buffed, not just the 2640 hp part of vit stones, the 20k whatnot hp from you get from gear itself. You dont get 2640 * 1,35 = 3564 - 2640 = 924 increase but 22,64 * 1,35 = 30,564 -22,64 = 7,924 increase. While yes, vit stones increase the hp when buffed by 924 more than jades do, we cant forget the far larger portion of hp that gets buffed and thus increases the number, which jades amplify so to say.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

Or to put it more simply, jades only help once you have decent base defenses. Kinda makes sense I suppose.

FlyRanger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I'd almost want to do some damage test vs. Aeliah and Re_Animator to debate this for clerics.

One Shotting Vit Barb

Charm By-Passing Jade barb

Ok that was pretty funny I gotta admit.

Bhavyy - Raging Tide

Well... I think we can assume we're talking about an end game archer or something close so defenses are going to be as decent as they get.
The issue really comes in when we have common dilemmas like the one mentioned previously for example:
Do i go +12 vit stone or +11 jades. Or Do i got +11 vit stones or +10 jades. etc. etc.

These are the types of things we should really be discussing or considering here. The question is not whether jades are better, everyone knows they are undoubtedly hands down better fully buffed end game whatever whatever. But archers have crappy defense so the difference between vits and jades on an archer is much closer than it would be on a cleric or barb so I dont see how mentioning those are relevant at all.
It would be nice to see someone do their own calculations to see how big the difference really is and then maybe based on that you can make your own personal conclusions on whether thats something worth paying triple or more the amount for since price is so subjective and the value of coin is a personal thing that means something different to every one of us because of how we make it, how easy or difficult it is to get and the variation across the servers means that we can never really factually say "no they are not worth it" or "yes they are worth it".

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

In terms of worth... given the new upgrade feature, wouldn't it be worth considering putting dods into your gear, and upgrading them 1 by 1 into jades? How well do dods stack against vit stones I wonder.

Bhavyy - Raging Tide

Well considering we're talking about how close jades and vits are to the point where some people claim that they swap in position of which is best when going from buffed to unbuffed or visa versa i think its pretty safe to say that dod's are probably a little over half as good as vit stones..

Not that this really has anything to do with worth at all or even the topic for that matter.

freygin

FlyRanger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I'd almost want to do some damage test vs. Aeliah and Re_Animator to debate this for clerics.


Aeliah is Jade build, Animator is heavy armour and vit build.

I think, even with physical attacks, I could still hit animator quite a bit more than I could on Aeliah, especially when purged.



One Shotting Vit Barb

Charm By-Passing Jade barb

Could you post a pwcalc link for your archer build, I can even test it for you as if aeliah was a full vit build using a damage simulator.

jade build will always take less damage per hit than a vit build since it cancels 48 atk level, unless the vit build has like 6% more reduction from armor defense, but it still depends on the overall gears on both attacker and the target though.

Madebyvisa - Raging Tide

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You are buffing hp, but 10k defense buffed is ridiculously low. Choose a more accurate value... lets see, 20k hp, I'm assuming endgame archer.. buffed physical defense should be, I dunno at least 22k? Should probably use a more accurate defense value if you want something close to reality.

What I constantly remind people of is that there are side benefits and disadvantages to being jades that aren't so obvious.

Examples:

1) its easier for me to heal a person with lower hp. If two builds have similar survivability but one has lower hp/takes lower values of damage, the lower hp one is easier to keep alive with spot heals. Same is true for hp pots.

2) certain attacks ignore defense levels. For these attacks vit builds are superior, since vit increases hp and moderately increases defense. Examples of such skills are mark of weakness, blade tornado, and absorb soul.

Even for barbs, jades are probably better. Why? A buffed barb isn't dying *anyways*. Fully buffed endgame barbs just... well really don't die, do they. So whether a vit build barb who is buffed has a slight edge in survivability isn't really relevant. What is relevant is that jades barbs survive better purged. And, again, they are much easier for a cleric to keep alive... my heals are strong, but still have caps on how much they heal, and as a % of your hp, my heals will do more good if you have lower hp/higher defense lvl than higher hp/lower defense levels.

Long story short, jades are pretty much always better at endgame.

not true anymore BT got nerfed in so many ways that its practically useless now b:surrender

Bhavyy - Raging Tide

But it's still your signature move LB!