Mis"timed" mortal magic

FaceRolI - Sanctuary

If you pk on wizard i'm sure this has happened to you before.

Just sharing.

Ursa - Dreamweaver

offtopic b:cute
how many pieces of gear you swap for that channel to kick in and how are you doing it so fast

juicybluca

FaceRolI - Sanctuary wrote: »

If you pk on wizard i'm sure this has happened to you before.

Just sharing.

happened here more than once its quite unreliable due mainly to lags (or unexpected crits) that i really stopped using it\considering it part of my skillset to bypass charm

FaceRolI - Sanctuary

juicybluca wrote: »

happened here more than once its quite unreliable due mainly to lags (or unexpected crits) that i really stopped using it\considering it part of my skillset to bypass charm

I dont think you get it... I even put in slow-mo... >_>

Edit: in case its not clear what happened...
1) loooz has ~26k hp buffed
2) hes at about 18k hp
3) i hit him w/ gush to try and get him to 1/2, immediately cast mortal.
4) gush critted and does 9k loooz charm ticks and he is now full hp (his charm was not in cd) if he had not had a charm his hp would have been at 9k.
5) mortal effect kicks in and looozs hp is back to full, just kidding... his hp is down to 9k

obviously best time to mortal would be if enemy has just a tiny sliver of hp left (assuming you cant kill them for w/e reason). but in terms of practical usage you may want to use under less ideal conditions. ex: get enemy 1/2 hp use mortal, tick their charm within 3-6 seconds, enemy charm on cd hp down to 1/2 again, 7-10 seconds to kill them if you can deal 1/2 their hp in dmg...

tl;dr mortal can be used even more aggressively and can "count" an extra hit.

Went out and tested w/ a friend. I could only reproduce this effect using gush and glacial snare. Though it may work for others, tried pyro d pyro wotp sr pitfall ss. only did a few test for each ~7

juicybluca

FaceRolI - Sanctuary wrote: »

I dont think you get it... I even put in slow-mo... >_>

Edit: in case its not clear what happened...
1) loooz has ~26k hp buffed
2) hes at about 18k hp
3) i hit him w/ gush to try and get him to 1/2, immediately cast mortal.
4) gush critted and does 9k loooz charm ticks and he is now full hp (his charm was not in cd) if he had not had a charm his hp would have been at 9k.
5) mortal effect kicks in and looozs hp is back to full, just kidding... his hp is down to 9k

obviously best time to mortal would be if enemy has just a tiny sliver of hp left (assuming you cant kill them for w/e reason). but in terms of practical usage you may want to use under less ideal conditions. ex: get enemy 1/2 hp use mortal, tick their charm within 3-6 seconds, enemy charm on cd hp down to 1/2 again, 7-10 seconds to kill them if you can deal 1/2 their hp in dmg...

tl;dr mortal can be used even more aggressively and can "count" an extra hit.

Went out and tested w/ a friend. I could only reproduce this effect using gush and glacial snare. Though it may work for others, tried pyro d pyro wotp sr pitfall ss. only did a few test for each ~7

ah i did not get it, i thought mortal bounced seeker hps back to full bar...

so this happened cause of net latency and mortal kicked in that fraction of second when hps go down half and before charm ticks?

might be worth to be tried with fast channeling\wellspringed\demonsparked skills i guess
if this gonna work you might win the award for the best 2k13 wizard discovery b:laugh

FaceRolI - Sanctuary

Wheres my Award?

jkz most wizards who pk would already know that mortals timing is a bit weird, though some of them may have thought it was just lag.

Adroit - Lost City

FaceRolI - Sanctuary wrote: »

Wheres my Award?

jkz most wizards who pk would already know that mortals timing is a bit weird, though some of them may have thought it was just lag.

Timing isn't really weird, it's just that skills have a delay and the damage doesn't always hit right away. If mortal hits at the same time damage does (and the damage would tick a charm), mortal marks the hp before the charm ticks. Same concept as getting multiple skills to hit at the same time in a sutra combo to increase the chance of a bypass.

FaceRolI - Sanctuary

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

Timing isn't really weird, it's just that skills have a delay and the damage doesn't always hit right away. If mortal hits at the same time damage does (and the damage would tick a charm), mortal marks the hp before the charm ticks. Same concept as getting multiple skills to hit at the same time in a sutra combo to increase the chance of a bypass.

Im fine w/ bypassing and charms not reacting fast enough to dmg input. The reason why I say the timing (I should say mortal) is 'weird' is cause... its weird... (I am a master w/ words!).

I wouldn't think it was that weird if order went like this...
1/2 hp, pyrogram, charm tick, mortal, hp resets to 1/2 hp. Thats actually what happens if you try w/ pyro due to dmg delay on pyro.

but on gush and gs its 1/2 hp, skill, charm tick, mortal, hp goes lower then 1/2, mortal adds in extra dmg from skill as if enemy hadn't been charmed. (this implies that the skill? or the server? or something is calc their new hp w/o charm considered?)

well maybe its perfectly normal to you just like this guy is perfectly normal. either way I think is nice for extra pressure on opponent.

wait a second, if mortal is "marking" hp including last hit, shouldn't you be able to kill a barb like this?
1) low hp
2) "killing blow" except CB is on
3) mortal
4)

lol I just kidding, pretty sure some game mechanic of CB or negative hps would kick in... im just going to go now... out... into the wilderness... looking for a panda... for no reason except... to pet it gently.

p.s. I was able to make this happen 100% of the time when tested w/ gush and gs, I ran numerous trials for statistical accuracy, somewhere between a staggering 5-9 times!

Adroit - Lost City

FaceRolI - Sanctuary wrote: »

Im fine w/ bypassing and charms not reacting fast enough to dmg input. The reason why I say the timing (I should say mortal) is 'weird' is cause... its weird... (I am a master w/ words!).

I wouldn't think it was that weird if order went like this...
1/2 hp, pyrogram, charm tick, mortal, hp resets to 1/2 hp. Thats actually what happens if you try w/ pyro due to dmg delay on pyro.

but on gush and gs its 1/2 hp, skill, charm tick, mortal, hp goes lower then 1/2, mortal adds in extra dmg from skill as if enemy hadn't been charmed. (this implies that the skill? or the server? or something is calc their new hp w/o charm considered?)

well maybe its perfectly normal to you just like this guy is perfectly normal. either way I think is nice for extra pressure on opponent.

wait a second, if mortal is "marking" hp including last hit, shouldn't you be able to kill a barb like this?
1) low hp
2) "killing blow" except CB is on
3) mortal
4)

lol I just kidding, pretty sure some game mechanic of CB or negative hps would kick in... im just going to go now... out... into the wilderness... looking for a panda... for no reason except... to pet it gently.

p.s. I was able to make this happen 100% of the time when tested w/ gush and gs, I ran numerous trials for statistical accuracy, somewhere between a staggering 5-9 times!

Well, the server makes calculations however many times a second (I think I remember a rumor of ~20 times a second).. so everything that hits a player between these calculations (I'll call them "frames") is calculated at the same time. So let's just pretend that some damage hits at the same time (between the same "frames") as mortal is placed on that opponent.. if the server does the calculation in the following order (WAY oversimplified)..

Subtract all damage from hp
Apply skill effects (like mortal)
Check if dead
If HP is under 50% and charm not on cd, fill hp back up

It would explain the stuff you are seeing. Interesting idea with mortal through killing blow though.. my guess is that it'd mark the half hp they get back after dying, but would have to test lol.

juicybluca

i tried all the evening and seems for me it works almost 100% after just pyrogram.
with other skills it doesnt

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

I'll say it again here... thats just broken lol. If you can apply it AFTER you tick their charm, you can basically negate the entire freakin charm. A class that can purify or resist debuffs is probably the only class who could handle something like this... yikes.

Something like...

chip hp to half
glacial snare
mortal reversion
undine strike
crown of flames/some other dot (how many dots do wiz have anyways?)
sleep skill
something nasty hard hitting goes here right about when mortal reversion kicks in
dead target, or dead after a dot tick even if they apoth out of it.

Broken I say... if you apply mortal after charm ticks, by golly it should return the target's hp back to full, not below half lol.

Adroit - Lost City

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

A class that can purify or resist debuffs is probably the only class who could handle something like this... yikes.

Which debuffs are you thinking about? Mortal reversion cannot be purified and can only be resisted with damage immunes (i.e. domain/ironguard etc.. faith cannot resist it) or tidal.

babyyoshi04

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I'll say it again here... thats just broken lol. If you can apply it AFTER you tick their charm, you can basically negate the entire freakin charm. A class that can purify or resist debuffs is probably the only class who could handle something like this... yikes.

Something like...

chip hp to half
glacial snare
mortal reversion
undine strike
crown of flames/some other dot (how many dots do wiz have anyways?)
sleep skill
something nasty hard hitting goes here right about when mortal reversion kicks in
dead target, or dead after a dot tick even if they apoth out of it.

Broken I say... if you apply mortal after charm ticks, by golly it should return the target's hp back to full, not below half lol.

stop talk about wizard like super op, sound like you stupid.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

Ah... I knew tactical couldn't be purified, but I wasn't sure about mortal. I very rarely fight wizards of consequence on my server outside of Nation Wars, where it seems it isn't functional? Anyways... that detail aside then, this makes it even more broken. You can basically, with this tactic, get an effect similar to me using 10 seconds to stack healing debuffs to max (or even more powerful on a barb/high hp person), while simultaneously maintaining your vastly superior dph spike damage that can allow you to abuse this charm-negation much better than a cleric can. Honestly... do wizards need more ways to kill stuff? Adroit himself admits... wizards have noooo problems killing ANYTHING. Spark debuff > fire skills > dead stuff. Do wizards really need to negate most of your charm as well? I'd say no way. I mean, just consider the scenario where you get a crit near half hp, *almost* killing the target but not quite, and several seconds later, their hp zips back to almost dead, even though you applied the mortal reversion when they were at full hp. Clearly the skill isn't supposed to work on a hp value PRIOR to when the skill was cast...the fact that this glitch is now known, though, opens this up to so much abuse its not even funny. Whereas it was somewhat of a challenge to tick somebody's charm and get them to low, and then case mortal reversion, with this glitch, you don't have to tick their charm to get the full power of the charm-negation, which means it can be done seconds into the fight, speeding up kills on even other strong people by a ton.

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver

Wizards are officially the most OP class 1v1. Clerics are so 2013. b:chuckle

Too bad there are precisely zero maxed out well played pk wizzehs on DW.

Adroit#1 b:victory

FaceRolI - Sanctuary

juicybluca wrote: »

i tried all the evening and seems for me it works almost 100% after just pyrogram.
with other skills it doesnt

You are not comboing fast enough. The reason why it would only work for you on pyrogram is pyro has a delay to it and since you are going slower it works out for you on pyro and only pyro.

overly detailed explanation for helping your timing (or you could just hold down mortal command while mid casting skill)

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

stuff

This song is for you

I only posted/shared this cause I like helping people who want to improve, to improve. Wizard is one, if not the top DD class is true. Endgame 1v1 is all about dem buffs/debuffs/crits/and burning the enemies "outs." This move is very strong to pressure your opponent (and burn one of their "outs") but it is not the end all-be-all, plenty of counters esp for a cleric. That said it greatly helps due to it low chi cost in ... "increasing the rate" of wizard deadliness if that makes any sense.

Personally I have the greatest trouble vs Clerics and Venos (I am mostly +12 but not JOSD). While I have insane damage potential, vs good players I hardly get the chance to use it u.u (like a nuclear bomb to bbq a magikarp QQ)

Anyways the # of people who will actually use this will probably be very low. Everytime I post stuff most ppl either already knew or dont understand what it is lol =.=

Also as you posted apparently not many good wiz on DW, so hey, you're okay, you'lll be fine xD

p.s. just to make you feel better... Mortal Works Everywherreeeee !!! \o/ b:kiss

Adroit - Lost City

@Aeliah - Pretty much what faceroll said, and one note to mention about this combo is that using it like described does have one major disadvantage compared to ep absorb heals.. and that is that there is only a 4 second window to take advantage of the lower hp. If you mark the hp at the same time as charm ticks, it will return the hp 6 seconds later.. giving the charm 6 seconds to cd as opposed to being left with near half hp and having to make it through 10 seconds before the next charm tick. It also requires chi as opposed to gaining chi, has a longer cd than absorb heals, does not heal us, and is much easier to mistime.. resulting in them returning to full hp 6 seconds later. It is a useful tool to use for sure, but I don't think it is as bad as you are thinking. Mortal has many uses, sometimes it is better to mortal at half hp and try to tick the charm just before it reverts (get the full 10 seconds to abuse the hp reduction) or after an attempted kill combo that got close but aren't able to get that last hit off to finish the opponent.. return them 6 seconds later for another chance.

I understand why you'd be frustrated that wizards have so many amazing kill combos (and ones that are very similar to the signature ep kill combo).. but we are a DD class.. with probably the least support potential of any class in the game. Our cc compared to other classes is lacking to say the least, we don't have any "natural" anti cc or spammable heals/squad buffs etc.. we need to be good at killing stuff or we'd be useless.

U_Sasuke - Sanctuary

omg you newbs.
let me tell you guys what exactly happened and what the deal is with reversions, both I think? and it's not a troll, like seriously. And I know this from experience with them (obviously I was the person who came up with how to use them in the first place!).

Reversion (especially mortal), is registered the moment you cast it. To put it in simpler words (hope I can)....Lets say you drop someone's hp down to a bit more than half....and the charm is about to tick any sec....but you cast your mortal reversion before the hp charm actually ticks, but the icon for it shows (or it hits) after the charm has ticked, It still registers at the point of whenever u cast (click) it....not when the icon actually shows or hit the target.

Go try it out ;D

Edit: I can't believe no one knew this till roll brought this up pffft.

Edit x 2: If you watch the video closely, you clicked mortal b4 his charm actually shows ticking. (there is a very mini mini mini x 100 split sec gap).

Dragslave - Dreamweaver

I totally think mortal is a nice skill, when it doesnt backfire like u showed there, i dont use it that much because of that. My ping is nt that low to be safe from lag from skills, so i have terribly failed a few times while using it.

Aeliah is right, in dreamweaver there arent many end game wizzies, i wish i could be one lol, i would say there are two, one doesnt pk i think, and the other fails at playing.

Still, mortal doesnt make wizzies OP, is not a sure thig so is just nice when it works ok, sucks when it doesnt.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

I don't object to the skill at all, just to what *it appears* to be a glitch in how its working. One of those coding things that bugs me on the same level as archers getting in 2 hits at the same time after take aim/quickshot, and the following auto attack lands at same time due to the 'delayed projectile damage' of the take aim/quickshot. One of those things that is there, observable and replicable, but which is probably not intentional, isn't in the skill description, and is a little broken at times with how it can work. I know Adroit has demonstrated similar 2-hits-at-same-time combos for wizards as well.

Anyways I get that wiz have very little ability to help others (corollary: -channeling gear could make wizard heal quite a good support in a pinch), and their dd is obviously going to be more varied and more powerful. Again, I just object to the skill not working as it (should be?), which looks like it will allow you to kill really difficult-to-kill people quite easily.

Nice to know about the 6s delay though, I'll keep that in mind should I ever encounter it, to know when to time my heal lol.

Ahira - Lost City

uh oh clerics have had their day- back to full support! b:beg b:shocked