Barb purge is way too op

Boomz - Harshlands

1. barbs can already have over 50k hp making them very hard to kill, especially with a charm.

2. they have some of the strongest moves in the game like arma and can have 100% crit rate.

3. they move at almost holy path speed

4. they have a multitude of skills and genie skills that make them take almost no damage

5. Now they have a rediculas 20% purge ( from what i've seen it is more like 50%)

Barb purge needs to be severvely lowered because they have every strong aspect of the game in one and are nearly unbeatable if they know how to play and are stated right. Even against their so called "weak classes" (but at the moment they don't have any?) they just play a turtle game and just wait for purge then kill.

How is this fair? It is not.

Resolution:
1. change barb purge to 10% or lower and increase time between uses.

2. reduce crit rate gain from skills

3. reduce the effect of solid shield by 10%

4. nurf damage by 5%

with these changes barbs will still be over powered, but at least a fair class.

After all barbs are a tanking class, not a pvp murdering class.

_dblazen_ - Dreamweaver

Not sure if serious or not due to signature

Boomz - Harshlands

this is serious, not a troll

bluestuffzzz

Boomz - Harshlands wrote: »

this is serious, not a troll

Either you're a troll, or not very intelligent. Either way, the intelligent part still works. You're suggestion(s) need to be provided on Wanmei's BBS, in Chinese. By posting on these near-dead forums, where no PWE staff provides any assistance and/or cares, you have wasted everyone's time reading your suggestions.

PWE staff are not equal to Wanmei development staff.
PWE staff don't program the game.
PWE staff have taken how many player-based critical changes and pushed them into the game?

GFG.

Boomz - Harshlands

go QQ elsewhere this topic is to discuss the needed nurfing of barbs

bluestuffzzz

Boomz - Harshlands wrote: »

go QQ elsewhere this topic is to discuss the needed nurfing of barbs

Well, considering you're the one with the suggestion that will be brought up to players and mods only, I'd say you're the one with the pole up your butt. Take the poll out and learn Chinese.

Eoria - Harshlands

_dblazen_ - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Not sure if serious or not due to signature

I assure he is completely serious and very, very bad.

RankNine - Momaganon

i also feel like the purge skill should be either nerfed or removed. heck, a barb purges me faster than i purge him.

Burnout - Harshlands

I actually watched that fight you had vs the barb.

You used your 2 min cooldown sleep to cast stone rain. That was actually your best play of the entire duel. I understand you're a bit jittery and scared of his damage, but to actually get a kill you need to tank damage while antistunned. No risk = no kill.

I do agree the purge skill can be very strong though, espeicallly for a .5s cast, and sage barbs gain chi a bit too fast.

RankNine - Momaganon

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

I actually watched that fight you had vs the barb.

You used your 2 min cooldown sleep to cast stone rain. That was actually your best play of the entire duel.

I do agree the purge skill can be very strong though, espeicallly for a .5s cast, and sage barbs gain chi a bit too fast.

when he fights me, he uses sleep + MS and then calls me a noob for dying 1 shot to dat crit :C

FistToDeath - Dreamweaver

1- At +12 stuff, everyone is very, very hard to kill. Not only barbs.

2- They also have probably the least useful CC skills, so it's a trade-off, really. Also, when they wanna arma you they must be in human form, which makes it impossible for them to have the 50k hp you complain of.

3- Uh, they have only one ranged skill when they're in tiger form, though, so I guess you can just holy path away?

4- They have only one skill that reduces their damage taken (2 if you count bestial rage's shield). They have only one exclusive genie skill that reduces the damage they take.

5- It's not NOW that they can purge. Clean Sweep has been in this game from the beginning. It's one of those celestial sage/demon skills. The chance is really low already at 20%, and the cooldown is the same as a veno's purge. No range either.
______

On to your suggestions:

1- Everyone can purge with genie with a 10% chance anyway. And 20% chance of purging every 30s means a barb will be purging you less often than a r9 archer, who will also deal more damage, or a spirit blackhole pole bm.

2- BMs have a 50% chance of also getting 95% crit from demon glacial spike (95% is the cap, can't get more than that, same as demon sunder). On top of that, the low dex barbs have gives them almost an arcane crit rate, so those bumps are quite needed for a demon barb. Endgame archers and sins have a base crit of over 60%, so I don't see a problem with giving barbs some crit sometimes.

3- Why? Barbs are meant to be tanks, and believe me, if you're pulling a cata, every % of damage reduction counts A LOT. Solid shield isn't nearly as op in group pvp as it is in 1v1. Nerfing it would break that for barbs.

4- Again, why? Barbs haven't got much DPS or DPH, really. They're pretty average.

Now, if you wanna pvp just by tanking damage, without ever kiting, maybe you should consider rolling a barb instead of a wiz. Wizzies are meant to kite and nuke, that's why they have shrink and a sleep and a seal and arcane defense and undine and genie spark and sutra and 3 of the strongest aoes in game.

Beleni - Dreamweaver

20% chance to purge, and has a 30 second cooldown..

An archer purges faster with that .3 bow
on purge attempts, had to go 20 ish times before i get it in.

It is nothing new, barbarians have always had a purge, just not every barb had it

Burnout - Harshlands

FistToDeath - Dreamweaver wrote: »

1- At +12 stuff, everyone is very, very hard to kill. Not only barbs.

4- Again, why? Barbs haven't got much DPS or DPH, really. They're pretty average.

Now, if you wanna pvp just by tanking damage, without ever kiting, maybe you should consider rolling a barb instead of a wiz. Wizzies are meant to kite and nuke, that's why they have shrink and a sleep and a seal and arcane defense and undine and genie spark and 3 of the strongest aoes in game.

The barb wasn't +12. He has a +7 weapon, +7-8 armors, and shabby citrine shards. The wiz was +12 though. Both were full R9rr.

Also, his kiting was okay. The problem is that you actually have to tank damage to kill a barb. You need at least 7-8 seconds standing still casting spells to kill a decent charmed barb...doesn't matter how long you kite (the fight lasted 10 min +).

FistToDeath - Dreamweaver

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

The barb wasn't +12. He has a +7 weapon, +7-8 armors, and shabby citrine shards. The wiz was +12 though. Both were full R9rr.

Also, his kiting was okay. The problem is that you actually have to tank damage to kill a barb. You need at least 7-8 seconds standing still casting spells to kill a decent barb...doesn't matter how long you kite (the fight lasted 10 min +).

Then I'm guessing the barb is quite far from having 50k hp. Maybe around 35-37k max if he was full vit stones with 4 sockets in everything AND max vit and hp in every piece of R9rr AND vit build. 50k doesn't sound reasonable at all for a +7/8 armor, much less with shabby citrines. With just shabby citrines he'd probably be just above 30k hp (assuming he's demon from the complains about the added crit%).

Burnout - Harshlands

FistToDeath - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Then I'm guessing the barb is quite far from having 50k hp. Maybe around 35-37k max if he was full vit stones with 4 sockets in everything AND max vit and hp in every piece of R9rr AND vit build. 50k doesn't sound reasonable at all for a +7/8 armor, much less with shabby citrines. With just shabby citrines he'd probably be just above 30k hp (assuming he's demon from the complains about the added crit%).

He has 26k hp (sage) if I remember correctly. The op was sorta exaggerating.

Doom_Panda - Harshlands

30k HP actually. Sharded with Immacs.

Boomz - Harshlands

FistToDeath - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Now, if you wanna pvp just by tanking damage, without ever kiting, maybe you should consider rolling a barb instead of a wiz. Wizzies are meant to kite and nuke, that's why they have shrink and a sleep and a seal and arcane defense and undine and genie spark and sutra and 3 of the strongest aoes in game.

Your right, wizzies need to kite, however that is impossible when a barb can be on you like white on rice with 11-12 run speed. Not to mention the multitude of movement slows, seals, and stuns that they have, its too many.

Longknife - Harshlands

bluestuffzzz wrote: »

Either you're a troll, or not very intelligent.

This is a wiz famous on HL for solving every problem with "TRIPOL SPARK!!!!"

Doom_Panda - Harshlands

Boomz - Harshlands wrote: »

Your right, wizzies need to kite, however that is impossible when a barb can be on you like white on rice with 11-12 run speed. Not to mention the multitude of movement slows, seals, and stuns that they have, its too many.

I've got 9.6 m/sec... I'd assume it's the same for the barb you 1 vs 1ed.

Burnout - Harshlands

Boomz - Harshlands wrote: »

Your right, wizzies need to kite, however that is impossible when a barb can be on you like white on rice with 11-12 run speed. Not to mention the multitude of movement slows, seals, and stuns that they have, its too many.

How does a barb seal? New morai skill?

FistToDeath - Dreamweaver

Boomz - Harshlands wrote: »

Your right, wizzies need to kite, however that is impossible when a barb can be on you like white on rice with 11-12 run speed. Not to mention the multitude of movement slows, seals, and stuns that they have, its too many.

You have ice prison, you have shrink, you have sleep, you have seal. Barbs don't get any seal. "Multitude" of seals and stuns... you sure you're not talking about a bm?

What a barb can do to CC you:

1- Mighty Swing (50% chance of stunning/60% if demon);*
2- Ancrestral rage (100% chance of 8s freeze, costs a spark, has 1 minute c/d, is ranged and deal nice damage. It's only a freeze, though, so you can shrink away;
3- Alacrity of the Beast (50% chance of a 3s freeze);*
4- Surf Impact (slows you by 65% - sage- or 50% with a 25% chance of a 4s freeze - demon);*
5- Frighten (33% chance to freeze for - sage - or 20% chance to stun - demon. both have 100% chance to reduce your speed)*;
6- Untamed wraith (100% chance to stun you for 2s. Quite useless for the duration, though). Ranged.

*So, 4 of those 6 skills are chance-based. The other two are either too short or a freeze that costs 1 spark.

Wizards have:

1- Gush (Slows by 40%/45%)
2- Glacial Snare (95% chance to do a massive slow of 80%)
3- Bids (95% chance of a 60% slow)
4- Demon stone rain (20% chance to stun for 5s)
5- Pitfall (slows target, chance to freeze)
6- Force of will (100% chance of silencing target)
7- Mountain's Seize (95% chance to stun for 6s)
8- Soporific whisper (100% chance to sleep for 4s)
9- Blinding blaze (passive chance to freeze target for 3s)
10- Ice prison (80% chance to cause a lot of stuns during 12s)
11- Tactical reversion (80% chance at same soulforce chance to move target back to where he was when you cast it)

So you're saying barbs have too many CC skills? Really?

Doom_Panda - Harshlands

FistToDeath - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You have ice prison, you have shrink, you have sleep, you have seal. Barbs don't get any seal. "Multitude" of seals and stuns... you sure you're not talking about a bm?

What a barb can do to CC you:

1- Mighty Swing (50% chance of stunning/60% if demon);*
2- Ancrestral rage (100% chance of 8s freeze, costs a spark, has 1 minute c/d, is ranged and deal nice damage. It's only a freeze, though, so you can shrink away;
3- Alacrity of the Beast (50% chance of a 3s freeze);*
4- Surf Impact (slows you by 65% - sage- or 50% with a 25% chance of a 4s freeze - demon);*
5- Frighten (33% chance to freeze for - sage - or 20% chance to stun - demon. both have 100% chance to reduce your speed)*;
6- Untamed wraith (100% chance to stun you for 2s. Quite useless for the duration, though). Ranged.

*So, 4 of those 6 skills are chance-based. The other two are either too short or a freeze that costs 1 spark.

Wizards have:

1- Gush (Slows by 40%/45%)
2- Glacial Snare (95% chance to do a massive slow of 80%)
3- Bids (95% chance of a 60% slow)
4- Demon stone rain (20% chance to stun for 5s)
5- Pitfall (slows target, chance to freeze)
6- Force of will (100% chance of silencing target)
7- Mountain's Seize (95% chance to stun for 6s)
8- Soporific whisper (100% chance to sleep for 4s)
9- Blinding blaze (passive chance to freeze target for 3s)
10- Ice prison (80% chance to cause a lot of stuns during 12s)
11- Tactical reversion (80% chance at same soulforce chance to move target back to where he was when you cast it)

So you're saying barbs have too many CC skills? Really?

Theres also Occult Ice...

Crazybladema - Harshlands

Boomz - Harshlands wrote: »

1. Wizards can already have over 20k hp and 30k p def making them very hard to kill, especially with a charm.

2. they have some of the strongest moves in the game and a crit from them will kill almost anything.

3. they have two jump skils and excellent kite aiding skills.

4. they have a multitude of skills and genie skills that can make them untouchable. When used correctly.

5. Now they have a ridiculous purify weapon proc and they get a free get out of jail card.

Mage classes purify proc needs to be severvely lowered because they are strong in every aspect of the game in one and are nearly unbeatable if they know how to play and are stated right. Even against their so called "weak classes" (but at the moment they don't have any?) they just play the puirfy card game, just wait for purify to run half way across the map and nuke evreything.

How is this fair? It is not.

Resolution:

1. change purify to 2% or lower and increase time between uses. As well as get rid of its speed boost and anti-stun.

2. reduce crit rate gain from skills

3. reduce the effect of stone barrier by 10%

4. nurf damage by 10%

with these changes mages and wizards will still be over powered, but at least a fair class.

After all wizards are a kiting class, supposed to be squishy, not a pvp murdering class.

Fixed, also I agree that barbs with over 50k hp are op. But really is anything with over 50k hp not op and hard to kill?

slamstone

@Boomz + RankNine

RankNine - Momaganon wrote: »

i also feel like the purge skill should be either nerfed or removed. heck, a barb purges me faster than i purge him.

I still believe it's a troll. 2 ranged DDs, one with spirit blackhole (and also a veno main), complaining about a 20% chance skill that needs to be casted handtohand and in human form?

Problem solved for a good couple of minutes of combat.

Out of all the barb skills you chose that to whine about? f:strive

@Boomz
btw you do know u're mixing demon barb advantages with sage ones just to get your point?
you do know that invoke and solid shield applies a slow effect of 50% on barb, therefore you can kite/eun/just plain walk like a maniac while "he's protected", forcing him to go with holy path or pot just to hit u?
and btw (im thinking long is gonna kiss me for this) did you ever heard of DoT dmg to counter the invoke?

Desdi - Sanctuary

Ugh o_o I find Barbarians to be fine the way they are. They are supposed to have good defences, HP and damage reduction/absorbing skills so they can live through all the beating they get as catapult pullers (and flag carriers sometimes).

I don't find their damage to be dangerous unless they go for that arma **** or some combo, otherwise I'm usually more than capable to tank their damage. I also don't find their purge scary. I'm more worried about other Venomancers and Archers.

Burnout - Harshlands

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

Ugh o_o I find Barbarians to be fine the way they are. They are supposed to have good defences, HP and damage reduction/absorbing skills so they can live through all the beating they get as catapult pullers (and flag carriers sometimes).

I don't find their damage to be dangerous unless they go for that arma **** or some combo, otherwise I'm usually more than capable to tank their damage. I also don't find their purge scary. I'm more worried about other Venomancers and Archers.

A good barb can actually do very decent damage to anything it's targeting. They have much faster attack speeds than BM's, in fact their damage is similar to seekers except with more CC. The problem is that most of their power comes from lvl 100 skills and morai skills, which not many barbs are used to using.

lvl 100 skills = clean sweep and ancestral rage.

People who complain about mystic's absorb soul should look at Ancestral Rage . Absorb soul is 125% base damage and 5 second cast, while ancestral is 200% base damage and .5 cast. Their arma is also decently easy to charm bypass with. Kiting barbs is harder as well due to berserker's rage, which can hit surprisingly hard.

Desdi - Sanctuary

I don't quite underestimate their damage and I'm well aware of some of the stuff they can do but most of the time I can more or less tank their damage (using various counter-attacking skills such as my Blazing Barrier for reflect and reduced damage).

I also know there are gear differences sometimes. Barbarians with lesser gear than me are harmless but I can also hold my own on equal-geared Barbarians most of the time. I had some 1v1 with a Barbarian not too long ago who had similar gear as me (a little better in fact, better shards and a little higher refines) for some practice and most of the time I was able to win but he'd often get me with some combo or a good combo leading to arma.

Of course I'm talking from the perspective of my class mostly which I find quite easy to deal with Barbarians (I have a decent amount of CC and then there's bramble, blazing barrier etc. if anything it will just take time to actually kill him while I CC/kite like mad) but everybody I know who PvPs regularly never said Barbarians are particularly OP.

Maybe things will change with the upcoming expansion but who knows.

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver

Depends what we're talking about here. Self buffed 1v1? re-apply stone barrier. Carry on.

Any other situation spirit of defence. Barbs purge is every 30 secs and 20% chance so statistically they should purge you every 2.5mins.

The real hax part of their purge is that its kinda hard to spot, there's no flashy animation like archers or a purple cloud under your feet like venos. The channel cast is very fast so you have to react to it pretty quick.

Unholly - Morai

Killing a barb even without invo or SS is a pain, they have a lot of survival.

Their damage potential is pretty high also coupled with not practically bad CC can catch you out.

That being said....

Crit rates are at the point in this game where if a physical damage dealer is hitting on you, we are more likely to see a critical hit than a normal hit.

Barbs speed isnt all that. They have less CC in true form and even if they have more speed than you they still suffer from movement skill cancel so simple walk kiting can cause them a lot of frustration. Not only that but they are the only physical class that does not have an instant gap closer (BM, Assassin) or ranged kill combos (Archer, Seeker).

Clean Sweep(CS) still has a low chance of procing about 1 time in 3 minutes. There is also often not instant follow up to a barb purge meaning you have time to react by using survival skill/kiting/pot/genie etc. A mistake i have seen a lot with people make when fighting barbs is that the proc rate is just low enough that they dont instantly check their buffs and so dont react accordingly in time or they simply dont notice it happened at all.

Your other three suggestions have very little to do with CS other than they are nerfs to z barbz. Although i do see problems with end game barbs to do with their raw survival and damage potential in a 1v1 scene. I do not feel that CS should be nerfed.

juicybluca

they also can sneak-use a spirit blackhole weapon in tiger form

but its meh... use that on a sage tidaled sin...

now whats op and whats not? b:chuckle

Crazybladema - Harshlands

I think barb are underpowered. I think they should be given purify proc on their weps as well.