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Raphxelion - Raging Tide

Hey b:bye serious thread. How do I kill full JoSD Cleric?!
Can clerics spam sleep/freeze skills?
When are clerics most vulnerable?

Yes I know about heart of steel and i use it after cleric extreme poison or sparks
I know about vaculty and I'll use it after I survive first wave of sleep/spark/extreme poison. But the cleric will put up that shield and even if i use vaculty + tripple spark i cant kill them?

Asked this in seeker forums...all fail response b:surrender why not ask the clerics themselves:? I know if someone asked how to kill seekers, a seeker would have the best answer lol. (take away their chi, use heart of steel)

Eoria - Harshlands

Accept that you are a seeker and thus will have a hard time pulling off a kill on a skilled cleric unless you manage a zerk crit when all of our **** is down. ofc, that'll be hard to pull off because you're a seeker and thus we can just CC you out the ***.

Adroit - Lost City

How much do you hit the cleric with a rewinding gesture -> blade affinity -> sacrificial slash + poison -> QPQ -> Gemini Slash combo with a zc?

Adroit - Lost City

I actually just did a little testing, I got my wiz ep buffed (didn't self buff myself) to simulate the survival of an ep.. then had a maxed seeker try the above combo on me. For reference, my stats in this setup were.. 17630 hp, 15306 pdef, 26737 mdef, 112 def level. A zc on the combo in my last post hit me for 28512 damage.. clearly a one shot. With sage bell on me, the combo would zc me just shy of 20k hp.

So.. extreme poison isn't even necessary unless you want to try for a bypass with just a crit or zerk, which means this combo essentially costs nothing to use and you can repeat it every 30 seconds. So if they are self buffed, just find a time where plume shell isn't up and do the combo.. if it one shots you win, otherwise derp around for the next 30 seconds and try again. Being that you don't need to touch your genie/apoth/chi for offense, you should be able to survive essentially forever with a good genie. If they are full buffed, you could either try a purge genie or just the above combo with a poke skill before the gemini to lower their hp a bit.. you just need to get them down maybe 4-5k hp to guarantee a bypass with a zc on gemini.

dengudz

pls fix the RT unable to connect

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

I run into the same problem on my BM and basically what I have to do is survive the 20 seconds of their Plume shell and wait for the 11 seconds between rebuff time. Chain stuns (I know, you only have Voidstep) to extend that to 15 seconds and do your best to kill in that time.

You kind of have to set that up by saving your anti-stun so your not slept during that time. Learn to recognize SoG and Chromatic Seal animation. Then just setup your best attack. Least you guys have the advantage of ranged attacks. BMs can be frozen away from a cleric and basically helpless.

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver

Seal of the God - costs one spark cooldown 30 seconds
Chromatic seal - costs 20 chi cooldown 40 seconds

SoG lasts 15 seconds, sleep lasts up to 38 seconds (sage)

They arent spammable but they can be overlapped. SoG healing debuffs sleep mark of weakness and then attempt a kill.

SoG can be resisted by will surge/faith prior to it being cast. Once it's cast it cant be removed.

Sleep can be resisted by antistun/adrenaline surge. Once its cast you can use faith to remove it.

In terms of counters you have a few options, of which all are genie based.

Negating the healing debuffs. Tree of protection at the right time can remove the healing debuffs. But this is mote of a defensive option as it doesnt interrupt thr sleeo seal cycle.

Faith to break out of the sleep, immediatedly after its cast. Usually the cleric will sleep overlap with SoG so you dont have a chance to antistun, using faith as soon as this is cast, gives you 15seconds before the next SoG is available. Using will surge gives you an additional 7ish seconds before you can be sealed, in this time you would use the combo. The added benefit of the faith is that any healing debuffs applied will be removed.

Drawbacks: Faith has a 60 cd, will surge 30 seconds. Unless you have a high magic/vit genie wont have the energy to do this.

The way I see it is without breaking out of the sleep you will be indefinitely sealed/slept. Gebie use is the obly real effective way to do this. Means you cant rely on genie for survival.

Also the cleric will most likely plume shell during this period so (lol) use metal skills.. zc metal will still hurt? Not 100% here, and they will have mdef charms on so you'll have to tick that 1st. Trying to beat through plume shell in this limited time is pointless imo.

Maybe I'm missing something here as Adroit didnt mention genie use.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Seal of the God - costs one spark cooldown 30 seconds
Chromatic seal - costs 20 chi cooldown 40 seconds

SoG lasts 15 seconds, sleep lasts up to 38 seconds (sage)

They arent spammable but they can be overlapped. SoG healing debuffs sleep mark of weakness and then attempt a kill.

SoG can be resisted by will surge/faith prior to it being cast. Once it's cast it cant be removed.

Sleep can be resisted by antistun/adrenaline surge. Once its cast you can use faith to remove it.

In terms of counters you have a few options, of which all are genie based.

Negating the healing debuffs. Tree of protection at the right time can remove the healing debuffs. But this is mote of a defensive option as it doesnt interrupt thr sleeo seal cycle.

Faith to break out of the sleep, immediatedly after its cast. Usually the cleric will sleep overlap with SoG so you dont have a chance to antistun, using faith as soon as this is cast, gives you 15seconds before the next SoG is available. Using will surge gives you an additional 7ish seconds before you can be sealed, in this time you would use the combo. The added benefit of the faith is that any healing debuffs applied will be removed.

Drawbacks: Faith has a 60 cd, will surge 30 seconds. Unless you have a high magic/vit genie wont have the energy to do this.

The way I see it is without breaking out of the sleep you will be indefinitely sealed/slept. Gebie use is the obly real effective way to do this. Means you cant rely on genie for survival.

Also the cleric will most likely plume shell during this period so (lol) use metal skills.. zc metal will still hurt? Not 100% here, and they will have mdef charms on so you'll have to tick that 1st. Trying to beat through plume shell in this limited time is pointless imo.

Maybe I'm missing something here as Adroit didnt mention genie use.

Pretty much nailed it. Metal skills all the way, seekers. I'd even go as far as to say, don't bother trying physical skills after qpq. Even with your nastiest debuff combo possible, if I have plume shell in, gemini slash doesn't do jack! I don't even use physical defense charms fighting a seeker anymore, only magical defense charms now, ever since I realized that the only kills seekers ever get off me are zerk crit metals.

Adroit - Lost City

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Pretty much nailed it. Metal skills all the way, seekers. I'd even go as far as to say, don't bother trying physical skills after qpq. Even with your nastiest debuff combo possible, if I have plume shell in, gemini slash doesn't do jack! I don't even use physical defense charms fighting a seeker anymore, only magical defense charms now, ever since I realized that the only kills seekers ever get off me are zerk crit metals.

I think you're just saying that because there are no competent end game seekers on your server.. you are vulnerable to physical attacks for 10 seconds every 30 seconds.. and when that physical attack is capable of one shotting you by a large margin, I think it'd be a mistake to not worry about it.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

No not at all. Of course the physical damage can charm-bypass me if I'm debuffed. Its just that as a cleric, I have so many ways to deal with physical damage especially, via plume shell and vanguard spirit, and even pious blessing. In random pvp their physical damage occasionally kills me, but if I see the seeker coming, I can plume shell, and at that point, without somebody else purging, physical damage from that seeker will not kill me (barring the rare event where I have enough ppl ganking that mana bottoms out and I lose the plume shell without purge).

Or to put it another way, at least 2/3 of the time I'm completely protected against any physical attack. However, I don't have any special defenses against magic damage, so I have a constant level of vulnerability (0% protection) to metal.

This is somewhat akin to trying to kill an assassin when they have their tidal protection in. Sure there are gaps of vulnerability, but they can cover their gap. I can do the same with vanguard and pious.

If a seeker manages to notch my hp to half, the smart seeker should be trying METAL, unless they are particularly good at counting during a fight, and can time a blow to land just as plume shell wears off, bonus points if you can also tangling mire and hope that I haven't put vanguard spirit in. Nah, just stick with metal, seriously lol. With the fortify debuff qpqed you can hit a lot harder with metal than physical anyways, so whats the big argument here anyways?

Note: for 1vs1 fights I use primarily magic defense charms against seeker. In general pvp where seekers are present, I of course use both physical and magic defense charms. Again, yes seekers can do enough dmg with physical to kill me; however, if I'm aware of the seeker's presence, I can nullify most of their physical damage for 2/3rds of the time, and thus, physical damage won't help them much.

The OP is asking how to kill a cleric... I don't think he is talking about a group situation anyways.

Adroit - Lost City

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

No not at all. Of course the physical damage can charm-bypass me if I'm debuffed. Its just that as a cleric, I have so many ways to deal with physical damage especially, via plume shell and vanguard spirit, and even pious blessing. In random pvp their physical damage occasionally kills me, but if I see the seeker coming, I can plume shell, and at that point, without somebody else purging, physical damage from that seeker will not kill me (barring the rare event where I have enough ppl ganking that mana bottoms out and I lose the plume shell without purge).

Or to put it another way, at least 2/3 of the time I'm completely protected against any physical attack. However, I don't have any special defenses against magic damage, so I have a constant level of vulnerability (0% protection) to metal.

This is somewhat akin to trying to kill an assassin when they have their tidal protection in. Sure there are gaps of vulnerability, but they can cover their gap. I can do the same with vanguard and pious.

If a seeker manages to notch my hp to half, the smart seeker should be trying METAL, unless they are particularly good at counting during a fight, and can time a blow to land just as plume shell wears off, bonus points if you can also tangling mire and hope that I haven't put vanguard spirit in. Nah, just stick with metal, seriously lol. With the fortify debuff qpqed you can hit a lot harder with metal than physical anyways, so whats the big argument here anyways?

Note: for 1vs1 fights I use primarily magic defense charms against seeker. In general pvp where seekers are present, I of course use both physical and magic defense charms. Again, yes seekers can do enough dmg with physical to kill me; however, if I'm aware of the seeker's presence, I can nullify most of their physical damage for 2/3rds of the time, and thus, physical damage won't help them much.

The OP is asking how to kill a cleric... I don't think he is talking about a group situation anyways.

You are simply underestimating seeker damage with the QPQ combo. With maxed gear and self buffs, a zc on gemini in that combo is going to hit you over 28k.. and with sage vanguard ~20k. It isn't just a bypass, if you aren't full buffed.. you need to worry about being one shot through sage vanguard every 30 seconds.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

Another fortunate aspect of fighting seekers is their inability to easily purge. Spirit of defense! But yeah, no matter how hard the seeker hits with physical damage, 2/3 of the time metal is going to be the better option. No matter how strong their tangling mire, 100% elemental debuff from fortify is much stronger. I still think qpq attempts should be metal damage... or, at the very least, not *just* physical damage.

Adroit - Lost City

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Another fortunate aspect of fighting seekers is their inability to easily purge. Spirit of defense! But yeah, no matter how hard the seeker hits with physical damage, 2/3 of the time metal is going to be the better option. No matter how strong their tangling mire, 100% elemental debuff from fortify is much stronger. I still think qpq attempts should be metal damage... or, at the very least, not *just* physical damage.

Well a good seeker would probably switch it up and use physical sometimes and metal other times. The advantage of physical over magical is that it requires no chi or genie energy, and is more costly to counter with genie (hos = 80 energy.. if the incoming atk is physical, you need to expel/faith/domain which obviously costs more genie energy). Also, on my wiz without self buffs but with ep buffs (15306 pdef and 26737 mdef).. fortify drops mdef down to 21617, which is clearly still above pdef value. As far as plume shell, the worst case scenario is the seeker would hold off 20 seconds to do the combo.. not really a big deal. The obvious time where a metal combo would make sense is if the seeker somehow caught you at half hp while you had plume on and wanted to go for a kill.. but most of the time they could just wait to do the combo until your plume shell is on cd (regardless of your hp). As you also mentioned, it is also possible for the seeker to use both physical and metal skills so that hos or expel alone wouldn't be enough (and would help to get through defense charms.

It seems to me like the physical combo would be preferred over just metal most of the time because it costs less resources and if used at the right time, uses more resources from the target.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

Well a good seeker would probably switch it up and use physical sometimes and metal other times. The advantage of physical over magical is that it requires no chi or genie energy, and is more costly to counter with genie (hos = 80 energy.. if the incoming atk is physical, you need to expel/faith/domain which obviously costs more genie energy). Also, on my wiz without self buffs but with ep buffs (15306 pdef and 26737 mdef).. fortify drops mdef down to 21617, which is clearly still above pdef value. As far as plume shell, the worst case scenario is the seeker would hold off 20 seconds to do the combo.. not really a big deal. The obvious time where a metal combo would make sense is if the seeker somehow caught you at half hp while you had plume on and wanted to go for a kill.. but most of the time they could just wait to do the combo until your plume shell is on cd (regardless of your hp). As you also mentioned, it is also possible for the seeker to use both physical and metal skills so that hos or expel alone wouldn't be enough (and would help to get through defense charms.

It seems to me like the physical combo would be preferred over just metal most of the time because it costs less resources and if used at the right time, uses more resources from the target.

Hmmm... do you know of any clerics who have heart of steel on genie? I certainly don't, though if I fought seekers a lot, it would seem like a good idea to have it. Expel is too risky precisely because they can do magic or physical, which leaves tree, ad, belief, or wind shield (actually as an offensive counter occult ice is semi-acceptable, though less so if seeker has blade affinity on). I do see your point though, heart of steel is less resource costly than ad or belief.

Slightly off topic, but belief or ad are better counters to qpq than you'd think, IF you can use it before the seeker qpqs. If we imagine that the seeker has just loaded up with a bunch of debuffs he's about to transfer, ask yourself, what happens if he can't transfer them to the target (because of belief or ad)? The answer is, they go nowhere. Ie, they stay on the seeker. As an offensive counter, using belief or ad right before a seeker qpqs can be a great opportunity to kill a seeker. Keep a trigger finger on belief and watch for blade affinity and sacrificial slash, which will give you a couple of seconds to react, then fire off your damage spells. Bonus points if you've already debuffed the seeker (he'll expect the debuffs to disappear so he isn't worried about them, and you can catch him off guard as his qpq fails on you). Double bonus points if he had fortify in lol.

Adroit - Lost City

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Hmmm... do you know of any clerics who have heart of steel on genie? I certainly don't, though if I fought seekers a lot, it would seem like a good idea to have it. Expel is too risky precisely because they can do magic or physical, which leaves tree, ad, belief, or wind shield (actually as an offensive counter occult ice is semi-acceptable, though less so if seeker has blade affinity on). I do see your point though, heart of steel is less resource costly than ad or belief.

Slightly off topic, but belief or ad are better counters to qpq than you'd think, IF you can use it before the seeker qpqs. If we imagine that the seeker has just loaded up with a bunch of debuffs he's about to transfer, ask yourself, what happens if he can't transfer them to the target (because of belief or ad)? The answer is, they go nowhere. Ie, they stay on the seeker. As an offensive counter, using belief or ad right before a seeker qpqs can be a great opportunity to kill a seeker. Keep a trigger finger on belief and watch for blade affinity and sacrificial slash, which will give you a couple of seconds to react, then fire off your damage spells. Bonus points if you've already debuffed the seeker (he'll expect the debuffs to disappear so he isn't worried about them, and you can catch him off guard as his qpq fails on you). Double bonus points if he had fortify in lol.

Oh, resisting that QPQ combo is fantastic.. it is actually one of the best ways to kill a seeker imo. It can be really difficult to work through 25k+ hp, ~12k mdef and 182 def levels self buffed.. but catching them with some kind of mdef debuff + fortify + def lvl debuff (and possibly switched to jones + r9rr wep) they are down to like 56 def lvl and nearly no mdef.. they are very vulnerable. I guess that is yet another reason why the physical combo might be preferred over the magic one.. if the transfer gets resisted you aren't stuck with fortify mdef debuff on you. That said though, the seeker has genie and apoth too.. and often times has the option to switch targets to a mob or something and transfer the debuffs to it instead if you are going to resist it. It is also not possible to cycle through genie/apoth indefinitely to resist every combo.. and any bit of lag or just a non lightning fast reaction can let them get at least one hit in.

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver

So what would be the best way for the seeker to escape the sleep seal loop then.. or are we assuming they tank all that until the cleric goes for the kill combo i.e. unsleeps, and then counter at that point?

If they are tanking through and simply countering then they will have probably a 10 second window between the cleric hitting them with a damage skill that isnt mark of weakness, and the next SoG assuming an unsuccessful kill for the cleric. I.e. attacking cleric with plume shell and vanguards up.

If the seeker is breaking out of the loop then they will need to use genie, faith to break the sleep, (i believe this is the only skill to do this) at which point the cleric would immediately plume shell to cover the 10-15 seconds before SoG is available.

I.e. anytime the seeker is unslept/unsealed the cleric has plume shell up, before plume shell is expired the seeker is slept/sealed once more.. can't just derp around for that time as its the only 'free' time seeker should get. I.e. attacking cleric with plume shell and vanguards spirit. Hence the metal.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

So what would be the best way for the seeker to escape the sleep seal loop then.. or are we assuming they tank all that until the cleric goes for the kill combo i.e. unsleeps, and then counter at that point?

If they are tanking through and simply countering then they will have probably a 10 second window between the cleric hitting them with a damage skill that isnt mark of weakness, and the next SoG assuming an unsuccessful kill for the cleric. I.e. attacking cleric with plume shell and vanguards up.

If the seeker is breaking out of the loop then they will need to use genie, faith to break the sleep, (i believe this is the only skill to do this) at which point the cleric would immediately plume shell to cover the 10-15 seconds before SoG is available.

I.e. anytime the seeker is unslept/unsealed the cleric has plume shell up, before plume shell is expired the seeker is slept/sealed once more.. can't just derp around for that time as its the only 'free' time seeker should get. I.e. attacking cleric with plume shell and vanguards spirit. Hence the metal.

Well... yeah This is pretty much how it usually works.

Eoria - Harshlands

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

So what would be the best way for the seeker to escape the sleep seal loop then.. or are we assuming they tank all that until the cleric goes for the kill combo i.e. unsleeps, and then counter at that point?

If they are tanking through and simply countering then they will have probably a 10 second window between the cleric hitting them with a damage skill that isnt mark of weakness, and the next SoG assuming an unsuccessful kill for the cleric. I.e. attacking cleric with plume shell and vanguards up.

If the seeker is breaking out of the loop then they will need to use genie, faith to break the sleep, (i believe this is the only skill to do this) at which point the cleric would immediately plume shell to cover the 10-15 seconds before SoG is available.

I.e. anytime the seeker is unslept/unsealed the cleric has plume shell up, before plume shell is expired the seeker is slept/sealed once more.. can't just derp around for that time as its the only 'free' time seeker should get. I.e. attacking cleric with plume shell and vanguards spirit. Hence the metal.

Three skills:

Adrenaline Surge
Will Surge
Faith

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

Three skills:

Adrenaline Surge
Will Surge
Faith

What about them. Will surge resists SoG. Unless the cleric is nab, will just wait to hit SoG, or sleep first. Adrenaline surge during the last few seconds of SoG will give you time to antistun so could be useful to resist yhe SoG -> sleep, but then you still are sitting with stacked heal debuffs so faith would be preferable.

In any case its genie heavy and all you do is perhaps extend the window in between the cycle by 7 seconds (total 22 seconds) which isnt enough to see plume shell drop and react to it. Unless you posess godlike ping and reflexes and can resist a channeling SoG.

I think a better strategy would be to interrupt the chi of the cleric, as constant SoG, sleeps, purifies, require a butt tonne of chi..

Eoria - Harshlands

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I think a better strategy would be to interrupt the chi of the cleric, as constant SoG, sleeps, purifies, require a butt tonne of chi..

This is honestly what you should be doing regardless. All of our shields require chi and those combined with genie+apo and sleep+seal combo are truly what make us a ***** to kill.

Raphxelion - Raging Tide

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

What about them. Will surge resists SoG. Unless the cleric is nab, will just wait to hit SoG, or sleep first. Adrenaline surge during the last few seconds of SoG will give you time to antistun so could be useful to resist yhe SoG -> sleep, but then you still are sitting with stacked heal debuffs so faith would be preferable.

In any case its genie heavy and all you do is perhaps extend the window in between the cycle by 7 seconds (total 22 seconds) which isnt enough to see plume shell drop and react to it. Unless you posess godlike ping and reflexes and can resist a channeling SoG.

I think a better strategy would be to interrupt the chi of the cleric, as constant SoG, sleeps, purifies, require a butt tonne of chi..

Hey guys I read through the thread, thanks for the informative response!
Did not know clerics are still viable to metal skills.
I now know which genie skills to use (already planning on making a high stamina/vit) genie)
I really liked that
With all this information I will definitely have a better chance.
"rewinding gesture -> blade affinity -> sacrificial slash + poison -> QPQ -> Gemini Slash" - i love this combo i've never used it before lol

Unfortunatly my weapon is Cost Of Glory +12 and doesn't have zerk. So I won;t get lucky with a zerk crit, Gonna have to perfect the timing an understand the weaknesses more!

Wondering which would be better now...Ion spike + edgeblur while the cleric is vulnerable and frozen with occult ice. Or Tripple spark + metal skills. I'll have to test this out...with my high vit/sta genie occult may not work tho...haha I'll let you guys know how I do!

Eoria - Harshlands

Sell your ****ty Warsoul wep and buy a r9rr wep.

Raphxelion - Raging Tide

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

Sell your ****ty Warsoul wep and buy a r9rr wep.

lol ;D nah I would never sell warsoul, I understand what you're saying though. Most people who get Warsoul are noobs who don't really know how to play the class well or have pretty bad armor. And they generally believe warsoul is better than r9. I got warsoul KNOWING r9 would be the better weapon lol.

Before I got warsoul I made sure i got my armor settled then went ahead for the weapon.
Although its not as great as zerk still possible to kill anyone with it but will require more skill and effort. (And yes ANYONE even if it means using those stealth potion then killing them lol , gotta be tricky!)

GoF on a weapon is irreplaceable and an awesome proc tho .
Im not all about dominating people in pk, i love a fight, even if i loose lol. Plus I like the look lol.
http://pwcalc.com/4f9950c710b5c1a4

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Raphxelion - Raging Tide wrote: »

lol ;D nah I would never sell warsoul, I understand what you're saying though. Most people who get Warsoul are noobs who don't really know how to play the class well or have pretty bad armor. And they generally believe warsoul is better than r9. I got warsoul KNOWING r9 would be the better weapon lol.

Plus I like the look lol.
http://pwcalc.com/4f9950c710b5c1a4

So the question here is how does a seeker kill a cleric when the seeker is using fashion for their weapon and armor?

Eoria - Harshlands

Raphxelion - Raging Tide wrote: »

lol ;D nah I would never sell warsoul, I understand what you're saying though. Most people who get Warsoul are noobs who don't really know how to play the class well or have pretty bad armor. And they generally believe warsoul is better than r9. I got warsoul KNOWING r9 would be the better weapon lol.

Before I got warsoul I made sure i got my armor settled then went ahead for the weapon.
Although its not as great as zerk still possible to kill anyone with it but will require more skill and effort. (And yes ANYONE even if it means using those stealth potion then killing them lol , gotta be tricky!)

GoF on a weapon is irreplaceable and an awesome proc tho .
Im not all about dominating people in pk, i love a fight, even if i loose lol. Plus I like the look lol.
http://pwcalc.com/4f9950c710b5c1a4

Sell your ****ty Warsoul wep and buy a r9rr wep.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

A bm could benefit from a warsoul sword...get a killer hard-hitting MS... a seeker... well...