Just wondering....

BlastFlare - Dreamweaver

b:shutup When you are debuff support, why not stack GS with HF when with a DD Tank's triple sparks?

b:embarrass Am I the only one that does that? For both skills being level 10, that's like 50% and 100% Debuff to a boss's defense. b:chuckle It has to be GS then HF or there isn't enough time for them to stack btw.

Lol I ask this because I feel like it's faster than just using HF repeatedly.

note: I don't use GS if a mystic/claric/barb/veno is using the same type of debuff because their's lasts longer.

b:quiet I guess it's too expensive /"seen as a waste of chi" or something....


b:avoid

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

BlastFlare - Dreamweaver wrote: »

b:shutup When you are debuff support, why not stack GS with HF when with a DD Tank's triple sparks?

b:embarrass Am I the only one that does that? For both skills being level 10, that's like 50% and 100% Debuff to a boss's defense. b:chuckle It has to be GS then HF or there isn't enough time for them to stack btw.

Lol I ask this because I feel like it's faster than just using HF repeatedly.

note: I don't use GS if a mystic/claric/barb/veno is using the same type of debuff because their's lasts longer.

b:quiet I guess it's too expensive /"seen as a waste of chi" or something....


b:avoid

You aren't the only one, I often use them both, along with myraid sword stance, hell I even use the fist ulti from time to time so I can hf the physical immuned mobs for the casters. (I'll often use glacial spike if there is a caster in squad, even if the barb is devouring, as not all people will debuff the magic def of bosses... though some will... I for one don't see it all that often.)

Each skill has it uses (even the knockbacks) albeit the early ones like tiger maw are RARELY ever used, as is draw blood, stream strike, etc. Even though a lot of them are situational, they do have their places they can be used to make the bm look quite pro.

Liveena - Heavens Tear

My BM use combo of demon HF/GS for warsong spawn kill. Multiple debuff is always useful to kill boss faster.

I was in rb today with two other BM, a mystic, seeker and cleric and we planned our HF turn and I got last turn to throw HF. In most waves, waves are cleared after 2nd HF. So I decided to use GS despite of cleric objections (she doesn't know how BM works anyway), I throw GS along with first HF, and wave cleared even before 2nd HF can be used. b:victory

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Kind of just have to use your head on this one and it really helps to know your other classes. For instance, if there is a barb in squad and your squad is phys dd heavy, then why would you waste 2 sparks overwriting a 50% pdef 15 second debuff with a 50% 10 second debuff? Venos will often myriad or demon ironwood at the start of bosses with your HF and this is a chance a 100% debuff, so why would you overwrite that? Even cleric DD's have 40% debuffs, and the difference between their 40% and our 50% is about 3% actual damage. I'd rather triple spark + HF than gain 3% more dd.

Also, with G16 gear there was some rebalancing between dagger and fists and they're now on the same damage scale/refine rate. Sins still have a large crit rate lead, and slightly more multipliers from dex, but they're no longer that far out ahead of the squad. A G16 sin will have about 230k dps, an r9t3 sin will be around 250k, and I'm around 210k, so still in the relative ballpark. Unless I'm multiplying multiple DDs with way better damage than me its rarely worth it.

Also, GS + HF means your aps aren't increased and you'll fall short sparks and attacking sparkless if the boss is still alive. If you're a large chunk of the squads dd, than this means very good damage... then almost nothing. Means your second HF might be behind also, where if you triple spark, cloud erupt, and HF you'll have all your sparks back.

If there is a mystic in your squad stupid enough to use Befuddling Creeper and not immediately lyse it, then don't bother GSing. Befuddling Creeper is only a 20% debuff but it constantly rebuffs and will overwrite your GS right after you use it.

And hate to say it, but there isn't much of a reason to amp caster dd on bosses. They'll get about 3-5 attacks out of their spark and your debuff, then they won't have chi enough for any more sparks. They're great dph but still pretty bad dps compared to other classes. The other reason is you usually don't want to give them aggro by overdebuffing the boss. This will cause bosses to move them and your melee dds will have to chase and they'll lose dd that way.

BlastFlare - Dreamweaver wrote: »

1.or both skills being level 10, that's like 50% and 100% Debuff to a boss's defense.

2.note: I don't use GS if a mystic/claric/barb/veno is using the same type of debuff because their's lasts longer.

3."seen as a waste of chi" or something....

1.Not quite. I'm not sure how defenses under zero work exactly but -100% def is not the same as a 100% amp. For that matter, -50% def is only about 30% more dd.

2.Length of debuff doesn't matter. Devour is spammable, so is ironwood (venos have 2 myriads so 2 chances at a -100% debuff and demon venos have a 3rd chance), so are a clerics debuffs and they're all about equal or better than yours, and I explained why not to even both fighting a mystic using Befuddling Creeper.

3. It is seen as a waste of chi in most cases. There are right and wrong times to use it, obviously. Chi management is huge for BMs and if 2 skills wipe out all your chi and you're stuck at 2.86 or 3.33 aps or need to waste 3 seconds cycloning to get up to 3.33 or 4 aps then you're running behind on chi and while you've boosted the squads DD you're contributing very little of your own. Sometimes thats good, sometimes its bad, depends on your squad.

One last thing to consider is can your DDs tank? Why give a 5k sin all that aggro? He will pull aggro and he will die and then did you really help your squad? Usually my HFs and Tangling Mires are paired with my own DD, and since I'm decently well geared I keep aggro and tank and the sins stay alive. That's another thing... if you are using your genie to cloud erupt then you can instead use it for Tangling Mire and usually get more pdef debuff that way.

Morridune - Raging Tide

its a combo seen more often now with the increase in sage's ( i've personally used this many times and still had 2 sparks left) but mostly for wen gettin rid off large pulls of mobs for bosses im with saku main focus is keeping chi up and with the debuffs from other classes on hand most of which bn single target have longer durations is often ( tho not always) more efficient to do HF/spark combos

Desdi - Sanctuary

Technically Demon Ironwood is not a 100% debuff but reduces defence to 0. I know that bosses have rather low defences compared to what an actual player would have so you might be right on saying "100%" physical debuff on that part but I'm not sure.

Considering the upcoming expansion though, Sage Ironwood will become 50% and Demon will become 40% (with a 100% chance to proc) with a 25% chance to cause a 180% physical damage reduction. However, these are optional but mostly likely the majority of Venomancers will get the new Ironwoods (can visit veno-forums to find out why). Just a heads up for the BMs.

On another note, if a Cleric who debuffs is present in the squad then the magic debuff is taken care of. Myriad may also occasionally proc and offer a good debuff.
If the only caster in your squad is a Venomancer, then you'll most likely not need to GS as a Venomancer is often unlikely to Triple Spark during a boss. Typically they will save chi to spam Ironwood and Myriads and to potentially have chi ready to pass to Cleric or whoever needs it. Exceptions do exist.
If your squad is caster heavy then it may be a good option, provided the person who pulls aggro is able to tank.

I don't know much about BMs but based on my experience with debuffs I find GS situational.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

Technically Demon Ironwood is not a 100% debuff but reduces defence to 0. I know that bosses have rather low defences compared to what an actual player would have so you might be right on saying "100%" physical debuff on that part but I'm not sure.

Considering the upcoming expansion though, Sage Ironwood will become 50% and Demon will become 40% (with a 100% chance to proc) with a 25% chance to cause a 180% physical damage reduction. However, these are optional but mostly likely the majority of Venomancers will get the new Ironwoods (can visit veno-forums to find out why). Just a heads up for the BMs.

On another note, if a Cleric who debuffs is present in the squad then the magic debuff is taken care of. Myriad may also occasionally proc and offer a good debuff.
If the only caster in your squad is a Venomancer, then you'll most likely not need to GS as a Venomancer is often unlikely to Triple Spark during a boss. Typically they will save chi to spam Ironwood and Myriads and to potentially have chi ready to pass to Cleric or whoever needs it. Exceptions do exist.
If your squad is caster heavy then it may be a good option, provided the person who pulls aggro is able to tank.

I don't know much about BMs but based on my experience with debuffs I find GS situational.

Agreed it is definitely situational.

It is definitely best to use as an aoe and of course when you can aoe/need to do it on mobs, or there is no one else using the magical defense debuff.

Still it is quite a useful skill, especially with the boost it got for when its used against players.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Wanted to add the main time I use the HF+GS combo is during mobs pulls and zhenning. The 100% crit rate means you can get GS, Highland (hardest "free" (no chi) hitting aoe), and Drake Sweep all in the 5 second GS crit time and all during the HF+GS debuff combo.

Strictly speaking, GS is about 30% more dd. HF is 100% more dd. Crit is 100% more dd. So you are looking at 1.3 x 2 x 2 damage= 520% damage on your first 3 aoes after the HF.

Desdi - Sanctuary

Definitely good for AOEs indeed but in the case the squad is so strong, usually the HF will be enough but yeah..very squad dependent!