Questions about Archers

Lolgasmic - Raging Tide

1) Does Blood Vow stack on Heaven's Flame? Does it Overwrite it and reset with a new debuff time + the actual debuff?

2) (Yay nub question) Are there any spammable AOE skills besides Thunderous Blast and Sharpened Tooth Arrow? I ask because STA never said it was an AOE... So maybe another Morai skill does? Who knows.

3) Am I the only one who hates that Blazing Arrow doesn't overwrite itself? For crying out loud it lasts for a pitiful 10 minutes.

Might add more if I think about it. Not sure if the archer class is dumb, or if I'm dumb. ... Coming from a barb's perspective here.


Ooo and great story, someone wanted me to link for a bh snakefist squad.

So I linked my fancy-dancy T3+10 bow.

I get a squad invite c:

I deny it.

And then shat all over his face in PM.

- in his own language.

That felt really good. c:

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

Lolgasmic - Raging Tide wrote: »

1) Does Blood Vow stack on Heaven's Flame? Does it Overwrite it and reset with a new debuff time + the actual debuff?

2) (Yay nub question) Are there any spammable AOE skills besides Thunderous Blast and Sharpened Tooth Arrow? I ask because STA never said it was an AOE... So maybe another Morai skill does? Who knows.

3) Am I the only one who hates that Blazing Arrow doesn't overwrite itself? For crying out loud it lasts for a pitiful 10 minutes.

Might add more if I think about it. Not sure if the archer class is dumb, or if I'm dumb. ... Coming from a barb's perspective here.

1. Blood Vow doesn't stack with HF, generally no skill to my knowledge overwrites with the new debuff time + actual debuff. (EDIT) I mean skills that pretty much do the same like HF, and BV... and even SS and EP. (EDIT: I may be wrong about this especially after reading jarkhen's post... but from what I remember from the couple of times I throw a hf seconds after another bm who doesn't have demon hf.... I don't see the debuff last for 9 seconds... but the fact that it doesn't stack... that is undoubtedly true.)

2. I admit I haven't played my archer enough to know the answer to this.

3. Nope, I hate it when better buffs don't overwrite lesser ones/renew the time.

Jarkhen - Archosaur

Lolgasmic - Raging Tide wrote: »

1) Does Blood Vow stack on Heaven's Flame? Does it Overwrite it and reset with a new debuff time + the actual debuff?

BV and HF use the same debuff, so they do not stack. They do, however, overwrite each other - so if I BV after a BM HFs, their 100% amp for 6-9s debuff is replaced by my 25% amp for 30s debuff, and vice versa.

Lolgasmic - Raging Tide wrote: »

2) (Yay nub question) Are there any spammable AOE skills besides Thunderous Blast and Sharpened Tooth Arrow? I ask because STA never said it was an AOE... So maybe another Morai skill does? Who knows.

STA, Thunderous, and Wingspan are all you've got. In fact, those are the only AoE skills you have at all aside from Arrow Inferno and BoA (and Whisper Shot, technically, but it's so limited it practically never hits more than 1 target).

Lolgasmic - Raging Tide wrote: »

3) Am I the only one who hates that Blazing Arrow doesn't overwrite itself? For crying out loud it lasts for a pitiful 10 minutes.

Not at all. Archers have been complaining about this for ages. It drives us all insane.

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

Lolgasmic - Raging Tide wrote: »

1) Does Blood Vow stack on Heaven's Flame? Does it Overwrite it and reset with a new debuff time + the actual debuff?

Overwrites

2) (Yay nub question) Are there any spammable AOE skills besides Thunderous Blast and Sharpened Tooth Arrow? I ask because STA never said it was an AOE... So maybe another Morai skill does? Who knows.

Well, there is that 2 spark pseudo zhen we're supposed to get with that new update but I'd rather BoA, I think. Whisper Shot is a linear aoe but linear = hard as **** to land on a pull

3) Am I the only one who hates that Blazing Arrow doesn't overwrite itself? For crying out loud it lasts for a pitiful 10 minutes.

Might add more if I think about it. Not sure if the archer class is dumb, or if I'm dumb. ... Coming from a barb's perspective here.


Ooo and great story, someone wanted me to link for a bh snakefist squad.

So I linked my fancy-dancy T3+10 bow.

I get a squad invite c:

I deny it.

And then shat all over his face in PM.

- in his own language.

That felt really good. c:

the **** is the point of that get your BH done

replies in red

XShadowshotx - Heavens Tear

Lolgasmic - Raging Tide wrote: »

1) Does Blood Vow stack on Heaven's Flame? Does it Overwrite it and reset with a new debuff time + the actual debuff?

2) (Yay nub question) Are there any spammable AOE skills besides Thunderous Blast and Sharpened Tooth Arrow? I ask because STA never said it was an AOE... So maybe another Morai skill does? Who knows.

3) Am I the only one who hates that Blazing Arrow doesn't overwrite itself? For crying out loud it lasts for a pitiful 10 minutes.

Might add more if I think about it. Not sure if the archer class is dumb, or if I'm dumb. ... Coming from a barb's perspective here.


Ooo and great story, someone wanted me to link for a bh snakefist squad.

So I linked my fancy-dancy T3+10 bow.

I get a squad invite c:

I deny it.

And then shat all over his face in PM.

- in his own language.

That felt really good. c:

1. Blood Vow and HF override each other as mentioned above. Though an archer's BV is better than a BM's lvl 10, and Sage HF, but not demon's.

2. As for spamable AoE's not really, other classes have more AoE's the archers, but because we have barrage we're classified as an AoE DD. Sharpened Tooth Arrow has actually always been an AoE to my knowledge. (been playing an archer for 4yrs) It says in the skill description, shoots arrows at ALL targets within a 6 Meter Radius of the target, therefore it is an AoE. Much like BM's Roar of the Pride AoE stun, its a frontal half circle.

3. Yes Blazing Arrow has annoyed the *** out of us for the longest time and we've asked for them to fix it god knows how many times as well.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

From ecatomb (identical to in-game description for Sharpened Tooth Arrow):

"○Sharpened Tooth Arrow

Range　Ranged Attack
Mana　280.0
Channel　2.0　seconds
Cast　0.6　seconds
Cooldown　15.0　seconds
Weapon　Ranged Weapons

Required Cultivation　Master of Discord
Shoot at the target with a flesh piercing arrow, inflicting base
physical damage as well as 3668.0 and reducing
maximum HP by 16.0% for 30 seconds.

Costs 1 unit of ammo

Demon version grants a 10% increase to critical hit for 15 seconds."

No, it really doesn't say anywhere that the attack is aoe.

Anyways, on the note of 'archers don't have many aoes', they aren't really suffering compared to other classes. Here's a list of the number of damage-dealing aoes each class has:

Archers have 6.
Clerics have 3.
Wizards have 6 (ice prison doesn't do damage by itself).
Blademasters have 10 (when all weapon paths are considered).
Barbarians have 7.
Venomancers have 3-5 (depending on whether you include myriads, which can do 4500 bleed or poison dot)
Assassins have 3.
Psychics have 6.
Seekers have 6.
Mystics have 2 (4 if we consider their summon aoes).

So 6 aoes is right in the thick of the pack.

FaceRolI - Sanctuary

ecatomb is wrong. in game ST listed as 6m aoe.

wizards have 7 not including IP
BM has 14-15 depending on if demon shadowless kick counts, majority of which suck. so not sure why the number maters if the issue is # of useful/spammable aoe.

Bhavyy - Raging Tide

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

From ecatomb (identical to in-game description for Sharpened Tooth Arrow):

"○Sharpened Tooth Arrow

Range　Ranged Attack
Mana　280.0
Channel　2.0　seconds
Cast　0.6　seconds
Cooldown　15.0　seconds
Weapon　Ranged Weapons

Required Cultivation　Master of Discord
Shoot at the target with a flesh piercing arrow, inflicting base
physical damage as well as 3668.0 and reducing
maximum HP by 16.0% for 30 seconds.

Costs 1 unit of ammo

Demon version grants a 10% increase to critical hit for 15 seconds."

No, it really doesn't say anywhere that the attack is aoe.

Anyways, on the note of 'archers don't have many aoes', they aren't really suffering compared to other classes. Here's a list of the number of damage-dealing aoes each class has:

Archers have 6.
Clerics have 3.
Wizards have 6 (ice prison doesn't do damage by itself).
Blademasters have 10 (when all weapon paths are considered).
Barbarians have 7.
Venomancers have 3-5 (depending on whether you include myriads, which can do 4500 bleed or poison dot)
Assassins have 3.
Psychics have 6.
Seekers have 6.
Mystics have 2 (4 if we consider their summon aoes).

So 6 aoes is right in the thick of the pack.

he asked about spammable aoes..

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

Define 'spammable'.

Asterelle - Sanctuary

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Define 'spammable'.

I wouldn't define spammable by number of AoEs.
It would have to be a metric that incorporates both the cooldown and chi costs of the aoe. Hmm, I'd also multiply it by the area of the skill.

If I had to make up a metric it would probably look like this:

sum((aoe radius)^2/[(Cooldown Time+channel time) * (1 + channel + cast + ChiCost/30)])

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

Well, there's also arrow inferno which does nice enough damage but is a 1 spark skill (OTL) and hardly spammable lol

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

I wouldn't define spammable by number of AoEs.
It would have to be a metric that incorporates both the cooldown and chi costs of the aoe. Hmm, I'd also multiply it by the area of the skill.

If I had to make up a metric it would probably look like this:

sum((aoe radius)^2/[(Cooldown Time+channel time) * (1 + channel + cast + ChiCost/30)])

Interesting... I agree that any definition needs to include cooldown times and chi cost. I like your equation for the most part, but have a couple of questions.

-Is it really necessary to multiply by the area of the skill? That seems to fall more under the 'efficacy' of the aoe, rather than how often (spammable?) you can do the aoe. A spammable aoe can have low efficacy (eg, shadowless kick) while a non-spammable aoe can have high efficacy (eg, blade tempest, barrage of arrows, tempest, etc).

-What does chi cost/30 signify? Also curious as to how you decided to add it at that spot in the equation.

Naturally, depending on your class and gear, spammability of an aoe can change... I suspect a complete equation would need an X value that can go from 0 to 1, to define how fast your class gains chi (0 being it never gains chi, 1 being instant gain of chi).

For an assassin, the X factor would be close to 1. For example, for them, the 30s cooldown of subsea is definitely the rate-limiting factor, not the 2 sparks. If subsea strike had a 10 second cooldown, you bet an assassin could be using it every 10 seconds without fail. With my own channeling gear on cleric, the cooldown on tempest becomes much more rate-limiting than the chi cost... my X value might be, say, 0.7? And on a seeker, that X value might go as low as 0.3 due to their slow chi gain.

Asterelle - Sanctuary

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Interesting... I agree that any definition needs to include cooldown times and chi cost. I like your equation for the most part, but have a couple of questions.

-Is it really necessary to multiply by the area of the skill? That seems to fall more under the 'efficacy' of the aoe, rather than how often (spammable?) you can do the aoe. A spammable aoe can have low efficacy (eg, shadowless kick) while a non-spammable aoe can have high efficacy (eg, blade tempest, barrage of arrows, tempest, etc).

-What does chi cost/30 signify? Also curious as to how you decided to add it at that spot in the equation.

Well if an AOE is a small 4m or something I didn't think it would be fair to treat it the same as one of those 12m / 14m monsters. I guess I was thinking more along lines of the general quality of the AOE as opposed to strictly defining its 'spammability'.

For chi/30, thats a qualitative factor but I was considering "How annoying is it that an AOE costs 1 spark?" and I figured that's around as annoying as it would be for an AOE to have about 3s channel+cast so to convert from chi to channel-cast equivalent I'd divide by 30 (with 1 spark = 100 chi).

That whole factor is what I consider to be the "annoyingness" of using the skill and is subjective.

Hmm, for a continuous zhen skill I'd probably multiply the Area by a nominal N value for average number of casts but also multiple the Cast factor by the same value.

I'm kind of interested now in what this would actually look like in a chart. Maybe I'll make a spreadsheet for it some time.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Well if an AOE is a small 4m or something I didn't think it would be fair to treat it the same as one of those 12m / 14m monsters. I guess I was thinking more along lines of the general quality of the AOE as opposed to strictly defining its 'spammability'.

For chi/30, thats a qualitative factor but I was considering "How annoying is it that an AOE costs 1 spark?" and I figured that's around as annoying as it would be for an AOE to have about 3s channel+cast so to convert from chi to channel-cast equivalent I'd divide by 30 (with 1 spark = 100 chi).

That whole factor is what I consider to be the "annoyingness" of using the skill and is subjective.

Hmm, for a continuous zhen skill I'd probably multiply the Area by a nominal N value for average number of casts but also multiple the Cast factor by the same value.

I'm kind of interested now in what this would actually look like in a chart. Maybe I'll make a spreadsheet for it some time.

Gotcha. Yeah, totally do it!

BTW... I don't remember if you are a mod or not (are you?) and if not, what happened to your post count? I coulda sworn you had... 1000s of posts.

DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Gotcha. Yeah, totally do it!

BTW... I don't remember if you are a mod or not (are you?) and if not, what happened to your post count? I coulda sworn you had... 1000s of posts.

Forums dun goofed

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Forums dun goofed

Ahh...thats unfortunate.

Lolgasmic - Raging Tide

FaceRolI - Sanctuary wrote: »

ecatomb is wrong. in game ST listed as 6m aoe.

wizards have 7 not including IP
BM has 14-15 depending on if demon shadowless kick counts, majority of which suck. so not sure why the number maters if the issue is # of useful/spammable aoe.

YouAreWrong.jpg

_________________________________________________


@ People listing non-spammable AOEs, read the OP closer because I did intentionally bolden the word "spammable" on purpose to help it stick out. None the less, thank you to all for helping out.

@ Walpurga, If you don't understand the part about the BH+Link, then you are either dumb or a troll.

@ Bhavvy, thank you.

@ Astrelle, you're really over-thinking this.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

Maybe it changes for level 11? I saw the same as you lolgasmic (my archer has lvl 10 sharpened tooth as well) which is why I said in-game doesn't provide description.

Asterelle - Sanctuary

Aeliah - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Maybe it changes for level 11? I saw the same as you lolgasmic (my archer has lvl 10 sharpened tooth as well) which is why I said in-game doesn't provide description.

It's a description error introduced in descent I think.

I tried to get it fixed here http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1614731

Looks like that needs a bump.

XShadowshotx - Heavens Tear

I thought it was cute, telling me a person who's played an archer for 4yrs that STA isn't an AoE.

FaceRolI - Sanctuary

Lolgasmic - Raging Tide wrote: »

YouAreWrong.jpg

NoobArcher

/inb4doesntcountcauselvl10STA=superimportant

Quilue - Sanctuary

Could always just link a screenshot of multiple people/mobs getting hit by it...

Descriptions and translations have been shabby as of late.

FistToDeath - Dreamweaver

FaceRolI - Sanctuary wrote: »

NoobArcher

/inb4doesntcountcauselvl10STA=superimportant

It is super important for when you still don't know it's an AoE, which is during low lvls. Who cares if it was wrong only in lvl 11? By then you should already know how it works. It's lvl 1-5 that matters most, really.

LodeJunior - Archosaur

lol, i didn't know STA is an AOE skill until level 90 coz i seldom shoot STA at mobs and only at boss and there is normally only 1 boss. Furthermore, even when you shoot STA, it doesn't always come out as multiple arrows, it think there is a certain depth limit between the target and the other mobs around the target. So to use STA effectively as an AOE positioning is important.

Jarkhen - Archosaur

LodeJunior - Archosaur wrote: »

lol, i didn't know STA is an AOE skill until level 90 coz i seldom shoot STA at mobs and only at boss and there is normally only 1 boss. Furthermore, even when you shoot STA, it doesn't always come out as multiple arrows, it think there is a certain depth limit between the target and the other mobs around the target. So to use STA effectively positioning is important.

It does come out as multiple arrows, but the animation for STA is so fat that they kinda look like one giant fat arrow. This is more evident when shooting from max range, where it looks like one arrow at the beginning but then spreads out as it nears the targets.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

Ah... so from lvl 1-10 the skill description is incorrect, but at lvl 11 it gets corrected to mention that the skill is an aoe. That is so PWI, lol.