Stat Vit

WannaBM - Archosaur

So many people seem to hate vit and tell our new players not to stat any vit.

These people imo are number horny and it reminds of my D2 time. I used to play D2 hardcore which means if you die, you die and lose your char and all items on it. Obviously this has an effect on your buildstyle and i had multiple layers of defence so that one debuf wouldnt **** me over.

At some point, when the game had become too easy, they came up with a new mob, Diablo Clone. All the forums were full of softcore people QQing how tough he was. Me and multiple other hardcore players who had learned not to just focus on that attack number soloed Diablo Clone from they day he was implemented with little or no problem.

I see the same aspect in this game. People all focus on that attack power and QQ about falling rocks, SOT bosses, getting agro and dying in squad.

Dont believe those who say vit is evil. Until you are +10 refined, Vit is a good thing and i recommend statting 103 of it. The classes i am familiar with to recommend it on are cleric, BM and barb. But i think it is true for most if not all classes, espescially also assasins as these often die when they steal agro for half a second.

opkossy

I disagree with the extreme you're recommending. Even with lower refines and shards, you can get away with little to no vit as long as you've learned to play your class properly. However if you're a level 100 in TT90 with no vit, half your skills not leveled, and very little clue on what to do when outside of a very specific instance.... well then you're going to be killed and complain about difficulty regardless of vit. While continuing to be a burden for the rest of your squad.

The fact is, I have 8X and 7X characters that don't have any super refines or high-end gears and use no vit. Yet most of those characters will have more HP than others in the level range when half my gear is off... and have more HP than the average level 100s of their class when I have their gear on.

That's not to say I'm against having newbies told to add vit as they feel comfortable with until they're used to things and can handle general survival. However, telling them to stat vit in the extreme, to me, is just as bad as telling them not to add any at all in most cases. That and for many of the DD classes, they won't actually steal aggro and die unless they either play stupidly (going all-out on something they can't survive aggro from) or refine stupidly (+10 weapon +3 armor sins I'm looking at you). Both of which, again, vit wouldn't really be able to help that much with.

WannaBM - Archosaur

I am Standard APS gear + G16 helm/chest +5-8 armors and +10 weapon.

I am still happy to have my vit and not planning to restat until i keep at least 15k standing without it, probably more like 16-17k. In tiger, i would reduce vit only if at least 20k HPs are remaining, but again probably a bunch more since either the dmg is not that important (pulling or boss tanking in party) or the effect of str is very limited (solo aoe, which is based on either armageddon or use of triple sparked skills)

My friend has a pure str BM and kept wondering why even though i had just 14k vs his 11k HP standing and all else pretty equal, i could tank so much more than he. He surely would have benefitted from some vit as well. Now that he has his r8r-int armor allowing for G16 sleeves and G15 Boots, he starts to get to a more comfortable zone where he can tank all FW bosses and puppeteer and stuff like that.

He also has a cleric that thanx to his vit has 9k HPs in his morai gears. This is absolutely no luxury when getting bubbled by emperor or random agroed by GBA for example.

And often when i do the weekly ABA and SOT runs, i have people die in squad and not get the quest for not being alive when the boss died. These are often lesser equiped casters that die to AOE damage even though crystals are being used. Vit would prevent this.

opkossy

And the things you say with vit could also be solved by... smart sharding, refines, and use of skills (including genies), as well as general knowledge of the instance and bosses in general.

I know someone with a sin that has +3-5 refined gear of the typical APS setup gear (sans pangu) and a +5 weapon as well as underleveled skills and a, frankly, horrible genie. Said person claimed that the sin could not tank 2-3 even fully buffed and that he had attempted to do so but failed multiple times. After getting a screen of the sin's build, gears, and skills, I made an exact duplicate of it and did 2-3 with just cleric buffs while the friend watched in disbelief.

The point of that story? While you can say vit would have helped my friend in that scenario, the fact is that better knowledge of the class, bosses, and instance were what allowed me to do what he believed was impossible. Not vit. Which goes back to the point I made before. While I don't mind people having vit, having better gear or simply learning how to play the class well and deal with the instances and bosses properly works just as well.

Sure, I had a 55 base vit cleric for a while back in 08/09 when we had a lower gear standard and didn't know as much about everything as we do now. But once I got more used to the class and upgraded my gear some, I ditched the vit as I started needing the 500 HP and minimal defense boost less and less over time.

So, to quote myself,

OPKossy wrote: »

That's not to say I'm against having newbies told to add vit as they feel comfortable with until they're used to things and can handle general survival. However, telling them to stat vit in the extreme, to me, is just as bad as telling them not to add any at all in most cases.

And the reason is that, simply put, a lot of the issues they may face are things that a vit crutch won't actually solve because they're due to a lack of skill/poor gear on the part of the person involved.

WannaBM - Archosaur

I dont think i base my personal experience and from those closely around me on players with a lack of skills. My friend is an excelent BM/cleric and i dont consider myself a noob either

Besides that, it is about stats here not about skills. They dont replace eachother. For every player with his toon and his player skills, there is a limit to what he can do. I think statting vit on a toon that is not endgame refined will move that limit higher regardless of the player skills.

Yes, you can also fix it by armor refines. Which is why i say, for non-end game refined toons. At lower refine/sharding levels, statting vit and refining your weapon higher than your armors has a better effect than spending more money on your armors compared to the weapon and not statting vit. Most people recognise that damage is easier to increase than HPs and thus have their weapon refined well more than the armor. They are correct in doing this. However, they dont offset it with vit and thus are glass cannons who would be able to achieve more with vit.

ovenusarmanio

I think this is too extreme, although I do agree with vit statting in general. I love vit because at better gear levels, it doesn't really matter too much. And at lower gear levels, before you get your gear (and gear isn't so easy to get if you cant even survive the aoes inside anything that makes you money, and can't merch), it can make a very big difference. In order to play better, you do need a minimal survivability to start learning the instance and gearing up, and vit can help get you there. The problem that a lot of people run into is that they use vit as an excuse to not gear up, which is a problematic. Vit can be used to help you get that little boost you need to clear the gap, but it cannot jump it for you. For that you need proper gear. TT90 at level 100 is NOT proper gear, I mean for most classes even the free morai quest gear would get them through the BH better than TT90 so there really is no excuse.

And one thing that does irk me is that people constantly state the case against vit by comparing people with **** gear versus people with decent gear, or people who are terrible at their class vs people who are good at it. This has nothing to do with vit. I do better on my seeker, who has statted vit, than a lot of other seekers I see out there. She routinely nets me a 100+ tokens in NW at level 80, soloed her pvs up til now even before vortex was even an option, I actually know how to proc my stances and how to keep a boss properly debuffed, etc. And she has good gear for her level. The vit is just a nice little bonus, that has saved me by allowing my charm to tick more than a few times in NW. *shrug*

opkossy

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

I think this is too extreme, although I do agree with vit statting in general.

And that right there sums up my first post in one sentence. Well played, Venus. b:surrender

Brillance - Raging Tide

OPKossy wrote: »

And that right there sums up my first post in one sentence. Well played, Venus. b:surrender

Look at that...and here I was thinking this summed up your first post:

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

And one thing that does irk me is that people constantly state the case against vit by comparing people with **** gear versus people with decent gear, or people who are terrible at their class vs people who are good at it. This has nothing to do with vit.

I know as a Mystic, it was always reccomended to stat Vit if you felt too squishy. As someone who has always appreciated hitting harder, it is no joke to take the time to measure your survivability, and stat a little Vit accordingly.

How is anyone going to learn about bosses, instances, and how to play their class like a Pro, if they cant stay alive long enough to learn?

This is the Beginners Guide forum. Sorry, but Venus has a point. b:surrender

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

I solo PV with TT60 axes and npc.TT70 gear on my second BM, no charm self buff just BP; who needs vit

Brillance - Raging Tide

Seems interesting your avatar says you are level 15 but your profile says you are 101. That's amazing...no wonder your posts confuse me most of the time. b:chuckle

I solo'd Feng on my level 23 Psy, got him half dead before anyone offered to help. My Mystic, however, usually needed Vit as a lower level, mainly do to an aggro-pulling problem, and needing to play frontline because of it.

Guess a barb or maybe even a BM with their self buff might not need it ever, idk. *shrugs*

MasterPerian - Lost City

gear vit points and 19k hp wiz

how do you only have 20k in tiger wtf..

holden1985

i made a big booboo ok cleric 50 mag and top left one

Baalbak - Dreamweaver

There's many a way to go about obtaining your defenses on a toon. Vit is one of them. I wouldn't say 100+ vit on a cleric is necessarily a great thing. You would be healing much as if you were a light armored cleric (ie 104 str, 104 dex at level 100). I'm sure everyone has had an LA cleric in squad in the past and wondered why they were having to use potions a lot more than they did with other clerics. Or they notice that cleric's BB isn't as strong as others'. That is because you are sacrificing so much points that go into the stat you need for providing heals, and dumping them into survival. There is a balance that should be sought after.

For instance (speaking of arcane classes):
Rather than going for channeling on ornaments (typically found on elemental ornaments), wear a physical defense ornament instead. Get your survival against the attacks you are naturally weak against boosted in this manner. Keep your base magic higher so as to provide better heals, and put a bit of vit in - but not too much.

For physical classes, wear mdef ornaments. Balance out your weaknesses!

---

That all said - the reason why DD classes - sins, bms, barbs that go for APS, and even seekers - like to go for low or no base vit - is because the difference in resistances between 5 vit and 200 base vit works out to about 1-2% only. Dumping those 195 points or into STR makes you hit a lot harder, which means you heal more effectively off of bloodpaint, especially when sparked. This is the same reason why you see sins that solo stuff using a Jones Blessing as opposed to an Omalley. The heals from BP returned are stronger and keep up better than if you were to use an O'malley for taking smaller hits yourself, and hitting not quite as hard. For my seeker (base 5 vit) I run through my Lunar pulls with omalley equipped, but once vortex goes up I swap over to a Jones.

http://pwcalc.com/8ea73ac2da2c1085 <- my vit build barb
http://pwcalc.com/873e0fc76e3bac2e <- my str build seeker wearing the same exact armor

*notes - barb has demon axe/hammer mastery and seeker has only level 10 blade/sword so the base damage range figures look backwards. All other buff levels depicted are the same. Notice how the "damage reduced by x%" figure is the same for p.def on both toons, and for mdef there is only a 2% difference.

Why I chose to go without adding vit on seeker is because of the fact that seeker gets adrenal numbness which is basically like having the defense side of an omalley blessing, which makes heals more effective in itself by taking smaller hits than the barb does. True, I don't get the HP pool that the barb has - but when taking smaller hits I don't need it. Not for anything PvE.

Defense > HP for the most part. Having a high HP pool with low defense = lotta charm ticks.

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver

I always find hilarious that people say "omg vit is only 10-12-13-15-20hp" "you nerf your heals/BB so much" and they haven't even calculated how stronger those heals would beb:chuckle

also lol @Defense > HP

finally: a large mattack doesn't get you points when you get oneshotted in NW

Baalbak - Dreamweaver

I don't have to do *math* to calculate how much stronger the heals would be, because I've done lots of TT runs and other instances in my time in PWI to be able to feel the difference in heals between an LA cleric (for instance) an AA cleric with 50 base vit and a pure arcane cleric, each wearing roughly equivalent weapons. But if you'd like to get into the math, feel free to make some sample builds with same gears and compare those magic attack stats against the description of IHB/BB etc.

IHB: Bless the target to restore 714 HP plus 30% of your base magic attack over 15 seconds.

Of course as a Barb you know that the higher your base HP is, the more return you're going to get from Beast King's inspiration. The same principle applies here to heals.

In nation wars, if you're undergeared - having a bit of vit isn't going to save you from getting one shot. Walking into a NW wearing tt90 armor with 200 vit you're still going to get one shot by some r9rr damage dealer. When you start looking at things on an equivalent gear level, the playing field changes entirely. Take a look for example at Aeliah - an R9rr cleric with mostly +12 refines. Shes got no base vit, but actually statted for an LA helmet by putting in 50 extra str, and refined that up for more HP, a tradeoff for statting an extra 100 vit (to gain 1000 extra hp than the AA hat). She's not one shot fodder to equivalent geared players - and can actually hold her own against two or more.

Vit is the most obvious route - but it isn't the *only* route to gain your HP.

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver

Baalbak - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I don't have to do *math* to calculate how much stronger the heals would be, because I've done lots of TT runs and other instances in my time in PWI to be able to feel the difference in heals between an LA cleric (for instance) an AA cleric with 50 base vit and a pure arcane cleric, each wearing roughly equivalent weapons.

then leave math out of your post; saying that vit increases your defences by 1-2% while omitting how much the attack increase will be sounds like you are trying to hide something. instead, try something like "I feel that..."

But if you'd like to get into the math, feel free to make some sample builds with same gears and compare those magic attack stats against the description of IHB/BB etc.

oh I've done that.

IHB: Bless the target to restore 714 HP plus 30% of your base magic attack over 15 seconds.

Of course as a Barb you know that the higher your base HP is, the more return you're going to get from Beast King's inspiration. The same principle applies here to heals.

In nation wars, if you're undergeared - having a bit of vit isn't going to save you from getting one shot. Walking into a NW wearing tt90 armor with 200 vit you're still going to get one shot by some r9rr damage dealer.

who's talking about not getting one-shot? the thing is, getting oneshot when you have X+1k hp gives more points than getting oneshot with X hp.

When you start looking at things on an equivalent gear level, the playing field changes entirely. Take a look for example at Aeliah - an R9rr cleric with mostly +12 refines. Shes got no base vit, but actually statted for an LA helmet by putting in 50 extra str, and refined that up for more HP, a tradeoff for statting an extra 100 vit (to gain 1000 extra hp than the AA hat). She's not one shot fodder to equivalent geared players - and can actually hold her own against two or more.

Vit is the most obvious route - but it isn't the *only* route to gain your HP.

LA helmet:
Dexterity +6~12
Dexterity +6~12
Vitality +6~12
Reduce Physical damage taken +1~2%
12: +2250

AA helmet:
Magic +6~12
Magic +6~12
HP: +80~150
Reduce Physical damage taken +1~2%
12: +1387

let's stick with max stats. for a cleric, the difference is:
1.2% crit, 863hp vs 24+50 stat points
stating 74 points in vit would give 740 hp and a bit of defence so the difference is 1.2% crit and 123hp. of course we can add the cape bonus; it's 200 extra hp but the AA cape has 12 more mag points. so the final difference is:
203 hp and almost 2% crit in favour of the LA set.
not exactly a breakthrough to justify thinking that it's an awesome hax build compared to plain vit.

isn't it funny though that stating str for a LA helm is more accepted than stating vit? b:chuckle

Baalbak - Dreamweaver

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver wrote: »

who's talking about not getting one-shot? the thing is, getting oneshot when you have X+1k hp gives more points than getting oneshot with X hp.

Well you, for one, mentioned that having a high magic attack won't help your points in NW when you get one shot. By this I was assuming you meant that having extra HP would prevent you from getting one shot. Hence my reply. If you're implying that having extra HP, and therefore taking more damage = higher points, then this is something I'm not aware of personally to be honest. I was always under the impression that points came from objectives completed (flag captures, crystals captured) amount of damage *dealt* to an enemy, and kill credit. If there's some algorithm that allots points for damage absorbed, then sure - go pure vit. Again, I must have missed that memo.

As for the heals returned from blood paint making solo boss kills easier with more attack power and no base vit vs a bit more def (1-2% as shown clearly from the linked builds) and higher HP - I know this to be a fact based on experience having played a 5.0 sin with +12 DDTs for a while before NW was released. This was tested essentially by changing between an omalley blessing and a jones blessing while farming nirvana. All other conditions being equal, the jones blessing outperformed the omalley in terms of self healing without using potions or charm. Nothing is trying to be hidden in my post, I'm simply sharing something I've learned from my own experience.

LA helmet:
Dexterity +6~12
Dexterity +6~12
Vitality +6~12
Reduce Physical damage taken +1~2%
12: +2250

AA helmet:
Magic +6~12
Magic +6~12
HP: +80~150
Reduce Physical damage taken +1~2%
12: +1387

let's stick with max stats. for a cleric, the difference is:
1.2% crit, 863hp vs 24+50 stat points
stating 74 points in vit would give 740 hp and a bit of defence so the difference is 1.2% crit and 123hp. of course we can add the cape bonus; it's 200 extra hp but the AA cape has 12 more mag points. so the final difference is:
203 hp and almost 2% crit in favour of the LA set.
not exactly a breakthrough to justify thinking that it's an awesome hax build compared to plain vit.

isn't it funny though that stating str for a LA helm is more accepted than stating vit? b:chuckle

I never called it a "hax" build. I believe that is you attempting to put words into my mouth because I don't agree with you that everyone should be adding large amounts of VIT to gain survivability. NW is only one aspect of the game, and there are many others. This does happen to be the beginner section where newcomers come to seek advice on how to stat up. Do we really want to see classes that don't need 100 vit in early game ending up gimped in all other aspects of their play (decreased damage, heals, pet heals etc) for the sake of getting a few extra points in NW when they inevitably get one shot?

I'll just leave things by saying VIT is good to have, but only to a certain extent - and I feel like only a barb should be built with all excess points allocated into VIT. Regarding my comment about defense > hp - the reckoning behind this is that if you can boost your defenses to the point where you take small enough hits, heals become more potent (relatively speaking) at keeping you alive - rather than relying on charm ticks to serve this function. True, there is a cap on how much defense % you can obtain, and this is 90%. Once you hit this point you want to start looking at increasing your Defense Levels for further defenses. Now, there's a reason why a lot of Melee toons drop easy in NW, and that is because they have terrible magic defense - this goes back to my recommendation of boosting your mdef on an HA toon (and vice versa for an AA toon). So maaaybe, just maaaybe, if you build your toon for defenses that can absorb those hits, and you know how to play your toon as well, you can actually stay alive and do more damage - thus getting you better NW token rewards. That is my Point of View on the subject.

ovenusarmanio

Baalbak - Dreamweaver wrote: »

-snip-

I just wanted to point out that yes, damage absorbed plays a big part in the tokens you receive in nation wars. And while vit can't stop a one shot, it can sometimes help you kite away or buy you a charm tick from opponents that maybe you can't beat, but that also cannot one shot you. And OFC sometimes that little extra bit can buy you a charm tick that helps you win. I've captured flags in 1v1s in this manner before, and there have been times that the extra vit on my Seeker has saved me. Of course I'm a one shot to anything r999 but not everyone is r999, and in fact that vast majority of the playerbase is not endgame. I do agree with you though that +100 vit is far too much for anything beyond certain types of barbs built for very specific purposes, you don't want to overdo it.

WannaBM - Archosaur

Well, im too lazy to try and convince you all.
Its always hard to try and convince people against common practice. Espescially when people are always racing for the highest damage so that they can proudly show who they one-shot or what other DDs they outagro in battle.
Its like shouting the world is round against people with a religious belief. Too bad this makes it so hard to inform new players.

opkossy

The thing is, none of us here are against statting vit. We've all agreed, more or less, that vit is a good thing to have and very useful in various cases.

What we are against is the extreme you're recommending as once you go past a certain point, you really start weakening yourself and making things harder by dumping too much into the stat outside of very specific circumstances (IE: cata barbs in TW). None of us are against vit and we all feel it's a good thing to have some until a person is comfortable with what they have and their survivability with it. But telling everyone to dump 100+ points into vit? That's far too extreme and will hinder more people than it will help.

So making stuff up about this imaginary aggro and damage fantasy you seem so convinced we have is... well... a total exaggeration. Come back through the thread and re-read our posts and this time try to understand them. None of us have even attempted to argue for maximizing damage so much as tried to explain to you why we feel that, though vit is good to have, the stance you're using for having this sort of excess in it is something we consider too extreme.

WannaBM - Archosaur

I have gone with that line of thought and i still do.

I clearly see however that "that point" beyond which you dont want vit is so much further than many people seem to think. It is not about TT90 toons. It is about G16+5 toons. So this point beyond which vit is no longer a good idea, is far enough away for the new player (whe are in the beginners guide here) that i feel i can safely tell them to stat vit. By the time they dont want it anymore, their character is worth a billion coins and they can afford a restat note.

I have before mathematically explained why it is better to stat vit and refine a weapon than to stat str and refine armors. So the point where vit is no longer the right choise is when you have plenty of HPs and prefer to just increase your attack power but you can no longer invest your coins in your weapon (weapon is +10 already) effectively and thus will have to invest it in armors. (beyond +6ish)

That point beyond which you dont want vit is simply where you have so much HPs that it doesnt really matter. For all APS classes HPs matter a lot because APS classes want to solo things like TT. Also, str/dex has a vastly diminished effect when sparked (in % of total damage) For the cleric it is good because much of his task (halving damage, purify) does not even depend on his magic at all and for the healing it is much better to have a living 10k HP cleric than a dead 7k HP one.

The other classes i cannot speak from experience or from math because i never calculated anything for them. But for example seekers im pretty sure will benefit from vit. The other caster classes may benefit less and for them the point of not wanting vit can be earlier. These classes dont want to solo anything and thus only need to survive random agro and AOE in areas like SOT and ABA. I guess 7-8k ish will be plenty comfortable there.

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

The other classes i cannot speak from experience or from math because i never calculated anything for them.

I started as a pure psy. didn't really struggle with either offence or defence: I always found awesome 3* stuff in AH or molds. I remember a 3x+94pdef OHT chest (+5, 4 immacs (offtopic: made by one of the top old cs'ers)). I then went total pure: 3 base vit.

I didn't play for a bit and I returned after cater nirvy was introduced. my DD with a g13+5 weapon was good yet in the final bosses it was risky so I stated around 50 vit.

sure, my dps dropped a bit yet I hardly noticed a difference in either pvp or killing mobs. "you need mag to kill the mob before it reaches you" is the biggest lie: dmg is heavily quantified, doesn't matter if you hit for 10k, 5k, or 1k to take that last 1k bit off.

skip forward a few years and I have a g16+11 sphere (it was a pretty good deal, seller was getting r9rr) and +5~6 g16 armours, in the process of rerolling. so I took a leap and stated 180 vit. yeah I didn't get the 130k crits; I got just 100k crits on mobs. I hit a bit less in NW but also soaked more damage; I saw an increase of tokens. And the fun part? although sometimes I couldn't one-shot someone, I still got more tokens cause I ticked their charm and then hit again and again.

The vast majority of the player base has very weak defences, especially compared to the our attack. Some say that vit was ok in the past; that 50-100 vit was ok but now it is. I disagree: today, more than ever, we have waay more attack; if it was ok to stat 1 vit in the past, these days it's ok to stat 2 or 3 vit.