Sage Wolf Emblem.

Toraah - Archosaur

So, I recently got the skill sage wolf emblem which increases the duration of the skill to 30 minutes instead of 30 seconds but the crit damage is reduced from 30% to 20%. It has a cooldown reduced to 8 seconds so it can be spammed for chi.
Many people have been telling me that sage wolf emblem is a skill you should not get because the crit damage is reduced, however I disagree with this because being able to have the skill up permanently without having to wait for the 1 minute cooldown with level 10 is invaluable.
What are your guys opinions on this?

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

Like tsyren said in his guide, that's a lot of chi

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Like tsyren said in his guide, that's a lot of chi

This.

We've had quite a few arguments on this and if wasn't for the chi I wouldn't learn it. Most bosses/mob groups take less than a minute to kill and you usually have at least 60 seconds between your next kill assuming your stealthing, so for damage I'd say demon WE or even lvl 10's 30% WE is more valuable to me. Not to mention in pk where dph and spike damage are invaluable as you try to bypass or race charms.

But... for the chi I think its worth learning.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

This.

We've had quite a few arguments on this and if wasn't for the chi I wouldn't learn it. Most bosses/mob groups take less than a minute to kill and you usually have at least 60 seconds between your next kill assuming your stealthing, so for damage I'd say demon WE or even lvl 10's 30% WE is more valuable to me. Not to mention in pk where dph and spike damage are invaluable as you try to bypass or race charms.

But... for the chi I think its worth learning.

Is it still worth it in fights that last longer than 30 secs tho? (coming from a TW state of mind)

Zsw - Dreamweaver

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Is it still worth it in fights that last longer than 30 secs tho? (coming from a TW state of mind)

From a pure damage standpoint, Sage and Demon Wolf Emblem are the same. For 30 seconds Demon will out DD sage, and for 30 seconds Sage will out DD demon.

However, the main idea of Sage Wolf Emblem is that critical hits are not predictable. You might use Demon Wolf Emblem and get less than desired number of crits. Thus, Sage Wolf Emblem serves to balance out the randomness by constantly having it on, so you will always benefit a bit from all your crits. And of course, there is the added chi.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

From a pure damage standpoint, Sage and Demon Wolf Emblem are the same. For 30 seconds Demon will out DD sage, and for 30 seconds Sage will out DD demon.

However, the main idea of Sage Wolf Emblem is that critical hits are not predictable. You might use Demon Wolf Emblem and get less than desired number of crits. Thus, Sage Wolf Emblem serves to balance out the randomness by constantly having it on, so you will always benefit a bit from all your crits. And of course, there is the added chi.

Ty. I came to a similar conclusion.

skaitavia

The only benefit Demons get is the chance to spike really hard on a zerk crit when Demon WE is active.

Sage is great for the chi spam, as well as not having to constantly worry about having it on or not.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

From a pure damage standpoint, Sage and Demon Wolf Emblem are the same. For 30 seconds Demon will out DD sage, and for 30 seconds Sage will out DD demon.

However, the main idea of Sage Wolf Emblem is that critical hits are not predictable. You might use Demon Wolf Emblem and get less than desired number of crits. Thus, Sage Wolf Emblem serves to balance out the randomness by constantly having it on, so you will always benefit a bit from all your crits. And of course, there is the added chi.

Hmm, that's a slightly skewed way of looking at it. I see where you're coming from, though.

For 1-30 seconds, demon is better. From 31-60 seconds sage catches up. If the fight lasts the full 60 seconds they're even, but then demon get's to WE and pull ahead. Assuming the demon keeps his WE up the best sage can do is break even, although the first 30 seconds of each minute demon will be ahead. The issue is most demon Sins are just lazy about using WE, or save it for a later point. If you're not lazy, or know when to use it then I'd say it gives far more dd than sage. Especially since you are getting the 40% bonus at the start of a fight when most buffs are coordinated and you typically use your genie debuffs. In otherwords 240% crit damage is a bigger difference than it initially appears over 220% crit when you have HF, Subsea/EP, amp, and pdef debuffs and possibly frenzy. As the boss fight goes on the debuffs are more likely to not be stacked and you probably going to start saving your genie for boss attacks or only have stamina for EP or Mire or Frenzy. And as for crit's being unpredictable, I guess you can argue the law of averages and say 30 seconds of crits is unpredictable but 60 seconds of crits is "more predictable" but on a sin critting is very reliable. You can argue demon WE offers much better burst opportunities because of the high chance of crit sprees during the active WE.

In TW I could see both having their advantages. As people pointed out, TW's and group pk last longer than 30 second spurts. I'd still favor demon for the same reason as I'd favor it in PvE. Let's face it, sin's aren't hugely popular in TW because they're more of a 1v1 class and don't do well with focused attacks ie, pop stealth and be hit by 6 people at once. My point is stealth is almost, sort of, relatively safe... kind of. People do spam anti-stealth pots and there are a few opposing sins that might catch you, but often you'll get a 10 second reprieve from killing by using stealth as they pop their apos and wait for them to kick in. Long enough to HP or teleport away. That's WE cd time.

The main purposes of sins are turret killing and focussing on cleric's or defense against opposing Sins. Sin v Sin fights are one of the quicker pvp fights. Look at a barb v barb, bm v bm, or almost any caster v caster. Chi advantage to the sage, damage advantage to the demon. At this point it comes down to skill and other culti factors.

Turret killing so people can't bind and jump back right near your base. The goal is to aps the turret before your AD/IG runs out. I'd favor demon. You'll probably have 15 pissed off opponents waiting to kill you the moment you're AD is gone and your walk back is your cd, lol.

Killing clerics. Spike damage for faster kill and larger hits so less chance or purify proccing, or the extra chi...

Anyways, just my two cents. Sins die... alot in TW. Very few can survive a group situation long enough for the cd to really make a difference so like I said, the permanent buff of sage doesn't really interest me too much. I'm good at keeping my demon buff active and if I know the instance, like when I used to solo Aba, it's active 100% of the time because I'm either walking between mobs on stealth or killing a boss which takes less than 30 seconds.

What it really comes down to for me is 240% crit (~ 80% the killing time average) or 220% crit and chi gain/combos like Triple spark + WE + Maze Step and still having Inner Harmony able to use in case of emergency.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Hmm, that's a slightly skewed way of looking at it. I see where you're coming from, though.

For 1-30 seconds, demon is better. From 31-60 seconds sage catches up. If the fight lasts the full 60 seconds they're even, but then demon get's to WE and pull ahead. Assuming the demon keeps his WE up the best sage can do is break even, although the first 30 seconds of each minute demon will be ahead. The issue is most demon Sins are just lazy about using WE, or save it for a later point. If you're not lazy, or know when to use it then I'd say it gives far more dd than sage. Especially since you are getting the 40% bonus at the start of a fight when most buffs are coordinated and you typically use your genie debuffs. In otherwords 240% crit damage is a bigger difference than it initially appears over 220% crit when you have HF, Subsea/EP, amp, and pdef debuffs and possibly frenzy. As the boss fight goes on the debuffs are more likely to not be stacked and you probably going to start saving your genie for boss attacks or only have stamina for EP or Mire or Frenzy. And as for crit's being unpredictable, I guess you can argue the law of averages and say 30 seconds of crits is unpredictable but 60 seconds of crits is "more predictable" but on a sin critting is very reliable. You can argue demon WE offers much better burst opportunities because of the high chance of crit sprees during the active WE.

In TW I could see both having their advantages. As people pointed out, TW's and group pk last longer than 30 second spurts. I'd still favor demon for the same reason as I'd favor it in PvE. Let's face it, sin's aren't hugely popular in TW because they're more of a 1v1 class and don't do well with focused attacks ie, pop stealth and be hit by 6 people at once. My point is stealth is almost, sort of, relatively safe... kind of. People do spam anti-stealth pots and there are a few opposing sins that might catch you, but often you'll get a 10 second reprieve from killing by using stealth as they pop their apos and wait for them to kick in. Long enough to HP or teleport away. That's WE cd time.

The main purposes of sins are turret killing and focussing on cleric's or defense against opposing Sins. Sin v Sin fights are one of the quicker pvp fights. Look at a barb v barb, bm v bm, or almost any caster v caster. Chi advantage to the sage, damage advantage to the demon. At this point it comes down to skill and other culti factors.

Turret killing so people can't bind and jump back right near your base. The goal is to aps the turret before your AD/IG runs out. I'd favor demon. You'll probably have 15 pissed off opponents waiting to kill you the moment you're AD is gone and your walk back is your cd, lol.

Killing clerics. Spike damage for faster kill and larger hits so less chance or purify proccing, or the extra chi...

Anyways, just my two cents. Sins die... alot in TW. Very few can survive a group situation long enough for the cd to really make a difference so like I said, the permanent buff of sage doesn't really interest me too much. I'm good at keeping my demon buff active and if I know the instance, like when I used to solo Aba, it's active 100% of the time because I'm either walking between mobs on stealth or killing a boss which takes less than 30 seconds.

What it really comes down to for me is 240% crit (~ 80% the killing time average) or 220% crit and chi gain/combos like Triple spark + WE + Maze Step and still having Inner Harmony able to use in case of emergency.

This is exactly where it comes down to playstyle. Honestly I prefer sage for a DPH playstle, and while the same can be done with demon, I prefer the consistant damage of chill, sage mastery, and WE. I love crits, but at the same time when I don't crit, I still like to hit hard. I believe sage satisfies me more in that aspect, although i may be wrong.

Sadly I die a lot in TW as well, as a sin, you get a target on your head when you pop up.

Zsw - Dreamweaver

I should have been more clear, but I was thinking more from a 1 v 1 stand point. Since your total DPS doesn't matter in 1v1 due to charm ticks, there aren't any catching up to do. You either kill them in 10 seconds or you start over, which is why I looked at it as a 30 second, 30 second type scenario. If a Demon and Sage sin were to 1v1, in a damage exchange, for 30 seconds demon will have the dd advantage, and for 30 seconds Sage will have the dd advantage.

I would have to point out however, that sins can be far more useful than just turret killing. Sins are a snare of sort. Clerics are definitely a priority target (along with other support targets such as venos and mystics), but the goal isn't to send all your sins on clerics at the same time. Rather, sins should act as a supporting DD against them, forcing genie usage quickly from multiple targets, then locking targets down and calling assist. This makes the spike damage from Demon Wolf Emblem less important than the ability to cycle through defensive and suppression skills without zeroing your chi. Sins are slightly different from BMs in that they are much more mobile, and can pose a greater threat to a single target. Although they lack the ability to control multiple targets at once. I would say that a squad of archers will take down a cleric much faster than a squad of sins. A sin + archer assist would be the most optimal.

However, to properly utilize a sin in mass pk or tw, it would require that the sin experiences little to no decrease in fps, due to the melee nature of the class. It would also require extremely good coordination from the rest of the squad. Of course, it would also require both skill and gear on the sin's part. I would not expect there to be a huge population that can achieve this. I do not believe I have seen any truly efficient squad as described above on my server (I tried before, but I always had a lack of gears and our squad just didn't get together much outside of tw). Considering the gear differences on PWI, in almost all cases, a sin who can perform the above would have such a great skill + gear advantage that they can just solo squads anyway.

ZooozOOo - Archosaur

omg not agn demon n sage b:shocked

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver

Sage wolf emblem rocks.

Its amazing awesome whoever said you shouldn't get it can go **** themselves.
You can even spam it to fill chi.
Sage wolf emblem ftw.

I like my demon one better tho b:avoid

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver

Skaitavia wrote: »

The only benefit Demons get is the chance to spike really hard on a zerk crit when Demon WE is active.

Sage is great for the chi spam, as well as not having to constantly worry about having it on or not.

Sage sin will get a higher number on their crits because of the sage devotion.


But demon emblem during a demon spark+powerdash is pretty freaky.

Also, the demon emblem takes advantage over the 2% extra crit from demon devotion.

I do belive assassins are perfectly chiseled to be well balanced between sage and demon, the fact is that sage sins have better outcome on pvp and demons better on pve. I dare anyone to make a sage and demon sin and prove me wrong.

Prinus - Raging Tide

To be honest I feel like sage wolf emblem lessens the effectiveness of sage's power dash bonus... I figure if you combine sage Power Dash with level 10 wolf emblem you can maximize damage output in small bursts, but that crit rate during that time allows level 10 to just outweigh sage. Except the chi. But c'mon... If you're a sage sin and don't have chi there's a problem xD

Prinus - Raging Tide

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Sage sin will get a higher number on their crits because of the sage devotion.


But demon emblem during a demon spark+powerdash is pretty freaky.

Also, the demon emblem takes advantage over the 2% extra crit from demon devotion.

I do belive assassins are perfectly chiseled to be well balanced between sage and demon, the fact is that sage sins have better outcome on pvp and demons better on pve. I dare anyone to make a sage and demon sin and prove me wrong.

This is true xD Mostly. Demon does get longer stuns and more APS, sage gets better chi-management and DPH. Both are feasible for either PvP or PvE, however yes, sage is typically better PvP while demon is a better farming toon. *I prefer sage PvE as well though, because despite the speed of killing bosses, I feel it survives better and saves my charm+apoth, thus making it more profitable.* (I have played both demon and sage, and I even rolled my R9RR+12/2.86 base sin to sage)

opkossy

Sevchenko - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Sage sin will get a higher number on their crits because of the sage devotion.

Demons will actually get larger crits because their wolf emblem has a larger impact than a sage's devotion does. The better refined your weapon is (as well as the more buffs and debuffs are active) the more true that becomes.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

OPKossy wrote: »

Demons will actually get larger crits because their wolf emblem has a larger impact than a sage's devotion does. The better refined your weapon is (as well as the more buffs and debuffs are active) the more true that becomes.

Aye, the main piont of sage WE is making an impact when demon wears off. As long as the fight last at least 60 secs they are comparable and equal. Plus, thats a lot of freakin chi.

opkossy

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Aye, the main piont of sage WE is making an impact when demon wears off. As long as the fight last at least 60 secs they are comparable and equal. Plus, thats a lot of freakin chi.

Yep. Love the extra chi from it having that tiny cooldown.

Jesusisback - Raging Tide

Lol I don't know why people keep overrating sage Dagger Devotion and they swear up and DOWN that they must hit 1.5x harder than demon, so lets get this thing straight ONCE and for all and the fact is that it makes us hit SLIGHTLY harder than demon.

Here's an example for your dimwits gg

Say this sin has 10,000 - 14,000 physical attack damage with demon dagger devotion

Sage would be 10,350 - 14,410 for a rough estimate, which isn't saying much

Point is demon wolf emblem completely overpowers our SMALL increase from dagger devo with it's 20% extra damage on crits so i'd appreciate if you stopped saying sages hit harder than demon sins, kthx.

Also i'll add that our subsea's definetly stronger, but NOT counting that (since most people don't use subsea very often) demon simply hits harder with Emblem active.

NOW i'm done you ignoramuses b:cry

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

trolling much? No one be talking about dagger devotion

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Jesusisback - Raging Tide wrote: »

Lol I don't know why people keep overrating sage Dagger Devotion and they swear up and DOWN that they must hit 1.5x harder than demon, so lets get this thing straight ONCE and for all and the fact is that it makes us hit SLIGHTLY harder than demon.

Here's an example for your dimwits gg

Say this sin has 10,000 - 14,000 physical attack damage with demon dagger devotion

Sage would be 10,350 - 14,410 for a rough estimate, which isn't saying much

Point is demon wolf emblem completely overpowers our SMALL increase from dagger devo with it's 20% extra damage on crits so i'd appreciate if you stopped saying sages hit harder than demon sins, kthx.

Also i'll add that our subsea's definetly stronger, but NOT counting that (since most people don't use subsea very often) demon simply hits harder with Emblem active.

NOW i'm done you ignoramuses b:cry

It's much more than that, sorry dude. I have about 600-800 more damage than demon sins with the same wep/sharding and refine.

Adversity Base damage: 895-1343
Adversity at +10: 1363-1811
Adversity at +10 w/ 2x Incomp Garnets: 1463-1911

Min wep damage;
Sage DD increase: 1463*0.90= 1316.7
Demon DD increase: 1463*0.75=1097.25

Max wep damage;
Sage DD increase: 1911*0.90= 1719.9
Demon DD increase: 1911*0.75=1433.25

Total disparity on wep damage: 219.45-286.65

That is the true increase on damage over Demon Dagger Devotion before dex mutipliers. I have 460 dex in my aps gear whi is 3* multiplier, meaning a 600-800 damage increase over my demon counterparts. It's nothing to scoff at. And I will repeat it to anyone that thinks other wise. If my math is wrong forgive me, but this has been proven in the actual game and not just on paper. And the bigger your wallet, the bigger the difference.

As Wal said, this is about Sage wolf emblem, not DD. I just wanted to clear that up.

Jesusisback - Raging Tide

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

It's much more than that, sorry dude. I have about 600-800 more damage than demon sins with the same wep/sharding and refine.

Adversity Base damage: 895-1343
Adversity at +10: 1363-1811
Adversity at +10 w/ 2x Incomp Garnets: 1463-1911

Min wep damage;
Sage DD increase: 1463*0.90= 1316.7
Demon DD increase: 1463*0.75=1097.25

Max wep damage;
Sage DD increase: 1911*0.90= 1719.9
Demon DD increase: 1911*0.75=1433.25

Total disparity on wep damage: 219.45-286.65

That is the true increase on damage over Demon Dagger Devotion before dex mutipliers. I have 460 dex in my aps gear whi is 3* multiplier, meaning a 600-800 damage increase over my demon counterparts. It's nothing to scoff at. And I will repeat it to anyone that thinks other wise. If my math is wrong forgive me, but this has been proven in the actual game and not just on paper. And the bigger your wallet, the bigger the difference.

As Wal said, this is about Sage wolf emblem, not DD. I just wanted to clear that up.

WELL i'm no math genius, so I simply used a PW calc with full r9rr with a +10-12 r9rr wep and the difference was about 300-500 between demon/sage DD, but whatever you say "math wizard".b:surrender I still stand by the point that it's no noticeable difference.

Also it was basically aimed at Svenchko who was talkin bout sage has higher crit damage because of Dagger Devo or w/e and i'm just facepalming like REALLY? Pfffft as if b:angry

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Jesusisback - Raging Tide wrote: »

WELL i'm no math genius, so I simply used a PW calc with full r9rr with a +10-12 r9rr wep and the difference was about 300-500 between demon/sage DD, but whatever you say "math wizard".b:surrender I still stand by the point that it's no noticeable difference.

Also it was basically aimed at Svenchko who was talkin bout sage has higher crit damage because of Dagger Devo or w/e and i'm just facepalming like REALLY? Pfffft as if b:angry

I said the difference is mutiplied by dex, linear scaling. Basically the bigger the sins wallet (more dex and phy atk/wep refines) the more it shows. Even if it was aimed at him, please don't forget all the factors of wep damage. Even 300-500 is big for a class with low wep damage. Thats about 3-6% of my total physical attack.

Sage does not have higher crit damage ALL OF THE TIME. It only beats out demon when the demon wolf emblem isnt active, then, and only then. The same for sage wolf emblem. But still, thats a lot of chi.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I said the difference is mutiplied by dex, linear scaling. Basically the bigger the sins wallet (more dex and phy atk/wep refines) the more it shows.

Yes and no. It sounds like you're double multiplying the sage dagger devotion. Dex doesn't effect mastery, just the refine, and it gets that equally for sage and demon. The higher the refine, the more phys attack difference the sage will have but the more dex the sin has the less important dagger devotion becomes. In other words that 15% makes a smaller difference towards endgame.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Sage does not have higher crit damage ALL OF THE TIME. It only beats out demon when the demon wolf emblem isnt active, then, and only then. The same for sage wolf emblem. But still, thats a lot of chi.

This is a poor way of looking at it. Sage's will often claim that sage catches up in damage but look at the timeline. Sage only breaks even at the 60 seconds mark and starts losing again at 61 seconds again when demon reactivates.

And as others have pointed out sage WE kind of hurts their use of powerdash.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

This is a poor way of looking at it. Sage's will often claim that sage catches up in damage but look at the timeline. Sage only breaks even at the 60 seconds mark and starts losing again at 61 seconds again when demon reactivates.

And as others have pointed out sage WE kind of hurts their use of powerdash.

THis i agree with, it only 'catches up'. While Sage WE does hurt the use of powerdash, its beneficial for the leangth of an entire battle, which means your crits are always a threat. Lets face it, most of us forget to use WE as soon as its back up, or sometimes its better to just keep auto attacking. I think thats the true strength of the sage version. Chi, and not having to reapply the buff in untimely situations.

DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver

Only real advantage sage sin has is sage tidal. b:bye

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Only real advantage sage sin has is sage tidal. b:bye

Lol you just forget, sage bp party buff, sage shadow excape, sage throatcut, sage IH, sage rds, sage maze steps. Shall I go on, or can you stop trolling now?

porphy

3 Rescind people is too much for one thread. b:laugh

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

porphy wrote: »

3 Rescind people is too much for one thread. b:laugh

o.o I'm not Rescind. Scrabble send invite next time im on.b:cutety

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Lol you just forget, sage bp party buff, sage shadow excape, sage throatcut, sage IH, sage rds, sage maze steps. Shall I go on, or can you stop trolling now?

All good skills... demon's are equally (if not better) as good.

I keep arguing for how a sin "should be played" and I know not everyone has that same idea of how a sin should be played but we do do have common ideas. Shadow Escape was something that appealed to me when I first made a sage sin, but then I realized we're chi monsters and 90% of the time I'd just spark off any debuffs and since shadow escape gives a spark and I can use demon more often I preferred demon for both the chi and the implied purify of shadow escape. It also helps more in speed runs and in TWs where getting into stealth is a life saver.

Not sure why you wrote sage throatcut since the difference between level 10 and sage is 95% vs 100% chance to interrupt. That 1 in 20 difference is about as often as a sin misses an attack on a cleric, lol. Throatcut wasn't a decision maker for me either way but when I used to be too squishy to tank bosses and had to skill spam to watch my dd output I'd use Throatcut to interupt boss aoes. The added "chaotic" effect was kind of nice. In pk it's an awesome bonus though while stunlocking to suddenly have your target amped. Again, playing a sin how a sin is played demon just seems to work better.

Sage IH I'll give them that. Although it's only useful when you have under 1 spark, which is rare on a sin. Demon IH has saved my *** a few times as a defensive move though.

Sage RDS is nice. Demon fits nicely behind other skills with 60 second cds so that if you're rotating them it's not in cd when you go to rotate again and just seems to work better in a spark rotation when trying to spark->Subsea if you've already used your IH.

Chain Tidal with demon Maze Steps, gg. Effects don't land when the attacks don't land. Against casters, I suppose sage might be better.

Sage bp as a party buff, awesome. Sage bp as a personal buff is good but you've ready my arguments comparing demon dps with 2% paint and sage dps with 3% paint. The demon can get more paint heals than the sage. And with endgame gear it doesn't mattter. It's more a skill geared towards undergeared players but when a boss is hitting me for 2k damage every 2 seconds and I'm healing 10k damage from demon paint every 2 seconds, it's not like sage would really do me any good. Similarly when I pull 50 mobs and am getting 600 paint heal from each aoe I'm full whether its sage or demon.

I actually wish they would reduce paint heals to 1% lvl 10/demon and 1.5% sage (in half). This way the ratio is the same but you're less likely to be full no matter what. It'd also discourage solo farming and encourage sins to work with their clerics.

Anyhoo, my point in all the above is sage has nice skills but nothing you listed is game changing and demon's are arguably equally as nice or better... Except Tidal.

opkossy

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Anyhoo, my point in all the above is sage has nice skills but nothing you listed is game changing and demon's are arguably equally as nice or better... Except Tidal.

I counter with Sage Shadow Walk.

You cannot use the skill in combat mode, making the demon version practically no different from level 10. The sage version, on the other hand, will allow you to stay AFK in stealth for an extra couple of minutes before your auto-potion have to use a single MP food to recover more MP than you actually have! b:cute