Squad play, is it dead?

Liveena - Heavens Tear

As the topic said, I've been wondering if good squad play is still exist or not.

I'm not saying that good squad doesn't exist, they do, but its getting rarer these day. But I can say is mostly the lack of communication between member.

Let me speak from my recent experience.

First is in FF/FC 90-99 where my seeker is in a squad with two sin (A an , a bm, another seeker and a cleric. During the run sin B somehow didn't speak at all in squad chat after wcing and tend to run solo killing or pulling mobs without warning. I've said multiple times in squad chat, please warn us before doing anything. Disaster came when I was doing big pull to runewolf boss, sin B attack boss too early and when my pull arrived at the room, the boss was already started to shout, near the entrance. This caught the rest of the member in the aoe and got killed, including sin B while I desperately dash across the room then go to the rock to reset the mob.
I'm asking sin B what the hell he was thinking, but this time sin A answered saying sin B was trying to kill the boss before the pull come. It came out that sin A and sin B has been on skype all along, and never discuss their reckless tactic with the rest of the squad b:surrender.

Second, during lunar run. The squad consist of my Bm, sin, two archer, barb and a cleric. Barb having difficulties in doing full pull so I said to him I'll do the pull, and without warning the archer started to run and pull the mobs in the edge of valley. me and cleric try to catch up, at the end of the valley, archer use IG and stopped, so I roar to stun the mobs while cleric started BB. To my surprise, archer ran back to the entrance where the other are waiting, leaving me and the cleric at the mercy of mobs.b:shocked.
Then I found out that the rest are in raidcall or somesort as they never speak a single word in squad chat except blaming the cleric. This happens multiple times during the run as me and the cleric try to find out what the rest of the squad are up to. many incidents happen :
- second valley, after done with the initial valley mob, cleric said he need time to build his chi as genie are still recharging for cloud erupt. Archer started to run again without warning and pull mobs to boss, me and cleric desperately try to catch up with the rest of the squad in which cleric got killed since barb failed to roar while archer was mauled to death, squad wiped.
- At last valley, after killing the boss, cleric started to chi up again (he already used errupt as he need to rezz the sin who dies during boss fight). While he was buliding chi, some1 started the badge boss, boss stunned us who are unprepared, killed the cleric and I tried to run but got killed. Cleric scream furiously, who started boss, no one answer, at this point I pmed the cleric and asked him that we both leave the squad in which we both agree.

So I considered the two cases as "communication failure" with some fail squad play b:surrender. Too many times I've been in squad that rarely speak or give warning before doing things and causing trouble for the rest of the member.b:angry

I'm wandering what you guys will do if you are in such squad b:laugh

bobyjoee

I don't think its a communication failure I just think things have a norm around here and most are use to following, some people are new or just coming back or whatever but ive joined countless squads, said hi, and then for the rest of the instance didn't say or hear another word from my squad mates because we know exactly what to do and when to do it, in fc for example: sins take the shades, seeker runs down the hall and vorts etc etc etc. you just had a bad squad b:laugh but contrary to your belief i haven't been in a bad squad in a long time.

Asone - Raging Tide

LOL, I had one such squad on my cleric just 2 days ago in FC.

Squad was 90+ made up of 1 BM, 1 seeker, 1 sin, 2 archers, and me the cleric. everything was seemingly fine until we got to the bishop boss. The BM had decided to go afk for more then 5 mintues and the sin got impatient and decided to just go. Ok, so pulls goes fine, everyone gets in.

We then started the bishop boss when without warning the BM comes in pulling all the mobs. I saw this at the last minute thinking "****....". Of course he pulled so close I arggoed the mobs with healing and died. Fortunately I had res scrolls and got up I as soon as I died and started healing again. Of course mobs came at me tho this time I was more prepared.

Somehow through all the mobs, the boss, bishop spawns, and the only casualty being me dieing once we lived and killed the boss. I would have loved more of a warning though or at the least the BM could have stunned the mobs and not have jumped on the rock. Unfortunately trust in unknown clerics' healing is limited these days, so I don't think he thought I could keep him, me, and the rest of the squad alive.b:surrender

So I guess the answer to 'what would you do in such a squad' is this. You improvise.

Edit: Oh yea as to the first question, yes good squad play still exists. You just had a run of bad luck. This squad I had myself was the first bad one I have had in a long time. But then again I normally go squad with people that I know on a regular basis.

WannaBM - Archosaur

Its a mix of communications, habbits and flexibility to addept to others.

Try to communicate yourself first and dont wait to try so until you are at slash boss
In extreme cases like yours where everyone is on some chat software except you, id just leave squat probably.

SMASHnHEAL - Dreamweaver

The title is very much misleading, the situations mentioned show that squad play is not dead.. The problem faced is that some people are using other methods of communication rather than squad chat without letting the others in squad know.

Wickedbrew - Raging Tide

Like others I don't think squad play is dead, as I have been in some great squads. But I have also been in some not so good ones. Some method of voicechat is fine in some circumstances where it is known everyone is using it, but in pick up squads, squad chat is my preferred method of communication. Not everyone uses voicechat. There is no sense in leaving someone out of the loop you are in a squad with if you aren't going to take the time to also type in squad chat.

Secondly, this game is plagued with people that want to run instances as fast as humanly possible. Again this isn't a bad thing if you are in a squad with people you regularly squad with. You know each others playstyle, mannerisms, etc. But in a pick up squad, a few extra minutes is NOT going to be a bad thing. Quite the contrary, its good. Take your time, and there is less chance for failure. Be in a hurry, and the outcome more often than not, is deadly to everyone in the squad.

Accidents happen, but stupidity, and impatience are a scourge in the land of PWI.

WannaBM - Archosaur

Wickedbrew - Raging Tide wrote: »

Secondly, this game is plagued with people that want to run instances as fast as humanly possible. Again this isn't a bad thing if you are in a squad with people you regularly squad with. You know each others playstyle, mannerisms, etc. But in a pick up squad, a few extra minutes is NOT going to be a bad thing. Quite the contrary, its good. Take your time, and there is less chance for failure. Be in a hurry, and the outcome more often than not, is deadly to everyone in the squad.

Its just that i so love it when everyone knows what they do. Simple things that require only the use of your brain, not even experience really. You are clearing a pav group by group. The first group doesnt have any sacs so i dont wait for squad and attack because i can solo them. The cleric comes and heals me, draws agro, dies and goes making posts about how those damn DDs dont agro all mobs. Well, i didnt really need or expect any healing....
The squad is complete and you jump into the next group that does have sacs and spark hoping the other 2 melee DDs will each take a different mob and youll all have only 1. Many people understand this. Unfortunately some do not and it may result in death. Then you hope cleric will purify you when you get bubbled. Some do, some dont and again it results in death. You get to the boss, punch it twice and then spark. Some ranged DD attacks it while you spark, draws agro, boss moves away bladibla.....

I know sometimes you look like the reckless one when you just attack without saying anything. But really i dont feel like taking the time to explain the basics each time, not even because i am too lazy to explain, mostly because i feel like i am insulting people when i stop to explain the basics. When you reached lvl 100+, it simply shouldnt be needed anymore. Also there is communication in your actions. Before attacking a boss, i move forward a bit to just outside its range. It seems 99% of people understand that that is about the same as asking r? and the answer is to move as well when ready yourself.

Fortunately, most of the time it goes quite ok Sometimes even exceptional. Like when i spark 5 seconds before a boss dies, the veno notices my mistake and without communication, gives me a spark. Now that makes me happy

Meggz - Sanctuary

I was in squads like that , they are either trying to show their power of just don't care about team work. Also many old players make new chars power lvl them and then they think they are the bee's all and do that to squads, they think its funny. U will find many players not chatting in squad anymore but in team speak,skype or any other form of chat and just don't care and do as they like.

So many people on chats now doing all kinds of bad stuff because everything u say in squad or faction or anywhere that u type can be traced by pwi.

ovenusarmanio

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

Its just that i so love it when everyone knows what they do. Simple things that require only the use of your brain, not even experience really. You are clearing a pav group by group. The first group doesnt have any sacs so i dont wait for squad and attack because i can solo them. The cleric comes and heals me, draws agro, dies and goes making posts about how those damn DDs dont agro all mobs. Well, i didnt really need or expect any healing....
The squad is complete and you jump into the next group that does have sacs and spark hoping the other 2 melee DDs will each take a different mob and youll all have only 1. Many people understand this. Unfortunately some do not and it may result in death. Then you hope cleric will purify you when you get bubbled. Some do, some dont and again it results in death. You get to the boss, punch it twice and then spark. Some ranged DD attacks it while you spark, draws agro, boss moves away bladibla.....

I know sometimes you look like the reckless one when you just attack without saying anything. But really i dont feel like taking the time to explain the basics each time, not even because i am too lazy to explain, mostly because i feel like i am insulting people when i stop to explain the basics. When you reached lvl 100+, it simply shouldnt be needed anymore. Also there is communication in your actions. Before attacking a boss, i move forward a bit to just outside its range. It seems 99% of people understand that that is about the same as asking r? and the answer is to move as well when ready yourself.

Fortunately, most of the time it goes quite ok Sometimes even exceptional. Like when i spark 5 seconds before a boss dies, the veno notices my mistake and without communication, gives me a spark. Now that makes me happy

The basics is to make sure you aggro everything so the rest of the squad can do their job. Basic tanking is keeping aggro+soaking damage, if you are only going to do half the job then you should communicate as such. Or let someone else take the first hit. A simple roar from a bm from example, is enough to keep aggro for long enough for someone (anyone) to throw an aoe even after the stun has expired. Just because something is basic to you, doesn't mean it will be basic to any random person. They could have another, equally fast way they consider simpler and basic and get thrown off by what you're doing.

This is kind of mindset is exactly the problem I have with a lot of pickup groups. I don't care if you (and I don't mean you in specific, I mean a general you. As this exact scenario I have seen many times, with various outcomes.) done something a certain way a thousand times with your normal group of people, it is unfair to claim others are stupid for not knowing how to read your mind and knowing you're going to do it that way. Especially with the first couple of groups, because they may not have had a chance to check your gear for whatever reason and dont' know if you need heals. They could just let you die ofc, and choose not to heal til they are absolutely sure. But that runs the danger of killing someone who does need the heals because the cleric missed the animation. So they may just choose to put their trust in you to have aggroed it, and take the risk. Keep in mind that for every single last new cleric you meet, you could very well be that idiot DD that runs into a pack of mobs whose aggro they cannot handle and causes a wipe. Because it happens a LOT. A LOT LOT. It might not happen much when you're in squad because you have the gear and know how to do something about it, but that isn't excuse for not knowing what's going on around you. It happens a ton. And clerics can't differentiate you from them without your communication. Forcing their hand to make a split second decision between a few scenarios: let someone die and possibly cause a wipe, let someone die who was dong their job, heal the person who didn't need it and get killed, heal the person and everything is fine. Each cleric will react differently based on what is happening, but by forcing the decision because you assumed they should know you didn't expect a heal, you are rightly incurring their irritation. Since the whole thing could be avoided with a simple, don't heal.

Different people have different distance settings too, just because you saw them doesn't mean they saw you. Keep in mind that they don't know you anymore than you know them and work to adapt your gameplay to the group you're in. Well that's just the way I do things. But considering I've run nearly exclusively with random squads for a couple of years, and probably been in way over a thousand pickup groups, I've gained a lot of experience with them. Since for the past couple of years, I have not had a permanent squad for farming. Too sporadic a schedule for that.

The people who either stick to the traditional or communicate well have always been the ones that did well. And almost all fail squads have been because everyone just assumed that their way was some kind of basic, failed to communicate, etc. It's almost never because of gear. People say so and so should learn to play their class and there are a lot of people who just aren't that great at their class. But a lot of the problems with pickup groups could be solved simply by communication. Nobody talks and that to me is the number one problem with them.

Toliman - Raging Tide

Liveena - Heavens Tear wrote: »

As the topic said, I've been wondering if good squad play is still exist or not.

I'm not saying that good squad doesn't exist, they do, but its getting rarer these day. But I can say is mostly the lack of communication between member...

Recent bh69.

Squad has not barbarian, just seeker with 5k hp.


I said to squad leader, that we need tank in squad chat.

Few minutes later UNWINED bh69 started with level 81 Venomancer as additional DD.


All was good until moment "enemies of the players" in our squad start to pull groups of mobs to kill them.

If I got aggro of few mobs (1-2) as usual with my 4,1k HP / 5 k physical defense buffed at the start of bh69, then now they start to do suicide of our squad.

Being killed ( cleric had not healed me as I was not in Dragon's Breath of mobs, which someone lured), I start to think, what to do next.

Cleric said : "We can't kill last 2 bosses" (after deaths of few players)

First, I had not attacked mobs until moment, when he rebuffed my Wizard, then, when I dced, I found myself kicked from squad.



I said to squad leader, that I don't want to continue "bh69" and got rude answer.

Jaabg - Sanctuary

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

The people who either stick to the traditional or communicate well have always been the ones that did well. And almost all fail squads have been because everyone just assumed that their way was some kind of basic, failed to communicate, etc.

That is all there is to it as venus pointed out.

When i run with 4 new people, i explain every single thing and timing for everything. It may make me seem controlling. End result, i spend 2~4 minutes explaining, which results in no deaths and everyone being on the same page. If things do go sideways, i know what others will do, so i can improvise accordingly.

Most people forget that a bm is a semi-cleric. I have been tanking bosses with 6~7k hp in warsong, and i see people with 9~13k, charmed, refused to touch the same bosses. We killed those bosses in under one spark, and the same bosses take about 2~4 sparks now, even though gear is better now.

Once you find a good squad, you know. Sins will rib, sub sea the boss and spark. Veno will do amp, armour breaks (if lucky). Archers will dd, and use BV once hf is off. Barbs and bm know not to overwrite the armour break of a veno. A bm knows not to overwrite a BV that is in place. Everyone empties out their genie on the first spark to get all the amps, debuffs on a boss. I can tell when people are lazy, it just results in needless deaths for most people.

As for OP, because of experiences like you have, i run with only one person regularly, i solo most things. In BH i help out others, i know i can duo the bh lunar in 20 minutes, while a squad takes me 20~50 minutes. It's fun to help out, but i see what the hp is for each player and i pull or dd accordingly.

Hunt - Raging Tide

It isn't that bad. I had squads where we rarely talk and do better than squads with raidcall/skype/squad chat.How? Do multi runs with same peeps and remember them.Even if you like you can make tactics which is great just for your squad.Have friends,good faction and know not just your class,but a little from all classes. Still i remember some crazy things i did with my friends,if you got great communication - together can do A LOT more than average squads, and those crazy things we did are still in my memory and keep me playing this game.Sadly,but in oldschool times it was easier to get in squad like that. Today its just bunch of R9 in squad do nw and act like they got pro squad with perfect strategy's.

WannaBM - Archosaur

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

They could have another, equally fast way they consider simpler and basic and get thrown off by what you're doing.

Of course it may be confusing if you read my post coming from a barb, but i think when i am standing right-up, using holy path to approach and then spark and start punching with those clearly visible peaks of clouds, you can see well enough what i am doing.

I gave examples of basics like a cleric looking if everything is agroed before starting to heal.
DDs attacking different targets to share the agro
ranged DDs not waiting until someone has agro.

Those things are basic enough imo.

And yes of course i do explain things that are not the basic mechanics of the game like these when needed. Whenever i do ABA, SOT, AEU and anyone is new to it, ill give a full step by step explanation. But the examples i gave. Yes they are basics. They are not about methods, they are about having your eyes open and using your brains.

VKnightV - Lost City

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

Of course it may be confusing if you read my post coming from a barb, but i think when i am standing right-up, using holy path to approach and then spark and start punching with those clearly visible peaks of clouds, you can see well enough what i am doing.

I gave examples of basics like a cleric looking if everything is agroed before starting to heal.
DDs attacking different targets to share the agro
ranged DDs not waiting until someone has agro.

Those things are basic enough imo.

And yes of course i do explain things that are not the basic mechanics of the game like these when needed. Whenever i do ABA, SOT, AEU and anyone is new to it, ill give a full step by step explanation. But the examples i gave. Yes they are basics. They are not about methods, they are about having your eyes open and using your brains.

your mindset is soloist then by all mean solo your own bh and stuff but dont asume your basic solo mind set is basic.

if you dont wish to comunicate then dont play a soloist herp derp in a ****ing party do your fuccking job and agro all the ****ing mobs and of story.

WnbTank - Archosaur

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

Of course it may be confusing if you read my post coming from a barb, but i think when i am standing right-up, using holy path to approach and then spark and start punching with those clearly visible peaks of clouds, you can see well enough what i am doing.

I gave examples of basics like a cleric looking if everything is agroed before starting to heal.
DDs attacking different targets to share the agro
ranged DDs not waiting until someone has agro.

Those things are basic enough imo.

And yes of course i do explain things that are not the basic mechanics of the game like these when needed. Whenever i do ABA, SOT, AEU and anyone is new to it, ill give a full step by step explanation. But the examples i gave. Yes they are basics. They are not about methods, they are about having your eyes open and using your brains.

What I dont quite understand is why you dont just run in tiger, Roar/smurf impact to aggro stuff, go humanoid, spark, change to claws. Heck, most of the time pulling more and keeping fists in inventory will be faster than going target by target, while in squad.

GlenRoss - Archosaur

In my observation, the vast majority of these squad nightmares involve people who have skipped a ton of squadplay as they leveled up (with the prominent exception of one instance).

btw this horse I'm beating seems to not be breathing.

Toliman - Raging Tide

GlenRoss - Archosaur wrote: »

In my observation, the vast majority of these squad nightmares involve people who have skipped a ton of squadplay as they leveled up (with the prominent exception of one instance).
...

I think so too.

What mind player 8X must have to lure dozen of mobs in bh69 ?

Beleni - Dreamweaver

if you join a squad, make sure it has a leader.
im not talking about the person that added everyone,
im talking about the guy or girl :P that co ordinates the team work.

If in the early stages of the instance if you see no leader and things are not going well.
Don't blame the squad or bad make up when it fails. Step up and take control of it, or you only have yourself to blame.

WannaBM - Archosaur

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

What I dont quite understand is why you dont just run in tiger, Roar/smurf impact to aggro stuff, go humanoid, spark, change to claws. Heck, most of the time pulling more and keeping fists in inventory will be faster than going target by target, while in squad.

Because you can die in a fraction of a second when you get debuffs in wood. If you dont plan to invoke, others need to agro part of the mobs and you, being the first to go in, uses spark to resist/purify the debufs and take the first hits and give others time to move in even if they dont have run/dash skills available and maybe no 3 sparks.

Fortunately it goes right in 95% of the squads. So i dont think what i do is so strange
And in those 95% it is not just me that plays like this. It is how all (well 95%) of the BMs and sins work. If it is logical and 95% does it like that, ye i really call it basic and standard.

I just acompanied 2 friends of mine on one of their first FWs. I know them from doing FCs with them a year ago and had not played with them since. (they just play a few hours a week) As i had hoped they were still good players though and i didnt have to explain anything. Just reminded them of the coming stun and HP debufs and i announce when i go pull. It was a great run I wish all those in G16 and R9 were as good as they are.

VKnightV - Lost City

if you cant survive a simpel pull maybe you should let someone else do it


the runner is sopused to agro all mobs

Zsw - Dreamweaver

Well, i haven't heard about anyone soloing full warsong yet, so I guess it's still alive.

Liveena - Heavens Tear

I have to agree with Venus that old style text communication is one of the key of successful squad run. I've been in full ws squad that communicate efficiently using squad chat resulting a smooth run.

Maybe just my bad luck, but again today my seeker got into a bad weekly SoT squad. Squad is ok with several R9S3 +10-12 people and 45k hp barb, but what worries me is some of the member have hp less than 5k meaning Hellfire boss will slaughter them unless they're using crystals from Courtyard. I've warned the squad about this, and this is what I got from the R9 people "Don't worry, I'll be fine, go on ahead and dig if u need it lol". I decided to go with squad and still worrying about the rest of non R9 member.

As I expected, R9 member happily bashing boss and don't care about damage while some of the member got slaughtered, to make things worst, they killed boss without waiting for the rest to rezz. despite I was shouting in squad chat to wait. b:angry

Not to say that all R9 player are bad, but some are who think high of themselves and fail to notice the rest of the squad member who are not equally geared.

Also about communication, personally I prefer the squad chat method since I don't like using voice chat software since I like to listen to music while playing. But sometimes I need to use one like when in NW with its stupid chat system.

Oh, about telling people how to play? I know its annoying for some people, but sometimes its is good for a reminder, personally I don't mind much when someone is telling my bm when to HF, stun, etc. But telling people how to play when themselves are fail? That's a different story.b:bye

Reliea - Sanctuary

Peeps just gotta care more about not over-extending. You can tell in the first "pull" of any dungeon what the squad as a whole is capable of. If you yourself are capable of more, but others are capable of less, pull the medium ground. If people don't want to care about squads, just solo, but if you do squad, you gotta be mindful of others.

Mostly, I just take my cues off what the tanks n clerics do. If I know I can safely take on something without endangering others, I'll do it, but then it's my own damn fault if I fail.

I feel like, if not everyone is on the same method of communication (ie skype/vent etc), then if there is any communication to do, you type it. Normally people do, and if they don't, I just assume they don't speak english, then I stop talking completely XD I swear, playing PW has given me the ability to comprehend basic Spanish.

If the squad doesn't seem to be doing well, I try to protect the cleric. I don't usually say anything unless it's blatantly obvious someone is doing something wrong, or isn't doing something they should be, but usually I just stay quiet and do my job the best I can. It's not worth the effort to potentially get into a fight over something like a BH or FCC.

Neferhotep - Lost City

I think the major problem here is the fact that people often think if they use TS/Skype, everyone else can read their thoughts. They DO communicate - with their friends. Its the same with people being in the same faction and talking to each other about battle tactics in Fac chat while the rest of our squad doesnt have a clue what they are up to do.
Or (at least common on Morai) people talking to each other in chat in any language you dont understand although you told them to use english, but they cant understand you. Its always nice to have a six-man squad with two people being able to speak english, and 4 people who can only speak french/german/spanish etc. . Sometimes they even do understand english, but are just too lazy to use it in chat. Really, nobody expects other players to be great at it, but you should be able to communicate in english a bit when youre playing an international game.

Skype/TS is something that really annoys me. I left two factions already because of it, although i knew them from the beginning and were friends with the leaders. First faction were "dying" when the original leader and his best friend left, although they were (and still are) trying to get better reputation again. Unfortunaly it was impossible because people were badmouthing others in TS behind their back.

The second faction was actually pretty nice, but i dont use Skype or TS and never will. If something important was announced, it was announced via Team Speak or Facebook what i also dont use, instead of posting news in Faction Chat. Same thing with squads, youre trying the get some people for a dungeon and nobody answers, not even a "no". Instead youre ignored. 30 minutes later youre asking again. Common answer:" Oh,sorry, we just ran bh89/Lunar/etc . We were planning this on TS channel " This happens way too often in multiple squads and factions.

Anyway, my point is that you should tell them to use chat or, if they refuse and you think you can find others, kick them. Theres nothing i hate more than people not answering if they are asked in chat. Sometimes the rest of the squads wants to kick the person, i get PMS from his/her best friends telling me that shes bad at speaking english or he doesnt like using the chat - whats even more ridiculous.

Nibaki - Heavens Tear

Whenever i talk in squad chat in FC i get told i talk too much. It really just LOOKS like I talk too much because NOBODY else is talking so there's 45 of my messages and like 2 people saying "Yes"

StealthSai - Archosaur

squad play hasnt died, its common sense that has died.