I would like your opinions..

Raziyal - Archosaur

I've been reading alot about demon and sage sins, but i would very much like other assassins who have gone in these paths to give there opinions.

My Assassin is purely for fun, its something for me to do when im bored with my Veno or BM.
She is almost 89 and ready to get her demon/Sage.

I would like to know Pro's and Con's to either path.
I'm swaying to sage, but i would like to have atleast some APS as i'm not sure i can get much -interval gear.

if you could set your opinions on boths paths, i like the skills in both but can't choose

and please don't say, sins go demon thats it.. i want a more strategic points of veiw on each.

Zsw - Dreamweaver

Do you plan on serious pvp? If so, Sage is the optimal option for end game PvP.

But if you are a non-cser/non-merchant and need to farm or only plan on pve, Demon gives better DPS for PvE unless you have really good gears/interval rolls, while Sage lets you tank bosses a bit better due to Sage Spark (but you can't windshield if you want the reduction, so less DPS)

tsyfall

Hmmm. Depends on how seriously you're going to play your sin.

If you're going to play casual or without gears, I'd go with demon. Don't need as much coin to reach semi-decent levels, you'll be popular with the PvE crowd, and it's a pretty okay choice.

Sage is going to be harder, but you'll get better returns on the long route. I maxed all my skills at level 90 (level 10 versions) and by the time I got sage Bookclip at level 92, I could solo FC uncharmed except for the 2nd boss. I mostly duoed it with a seeker or BM after that.

Zsw is right. Demon is going to be okay for APS playstyle, but if you're planning to do any competitive PvP, you'll need to be DPH. DPH sins rely heavily on chi, and demon sins just can't compare to the vast reserves that sage offers.

Jesusisback - Raging Tide

Go demon gg

Mrvate - Heavens Tear

Just from reading your post, I'd guess demon would be a better fit for you. You mention that its an alt and just for fun. And that you want aps and won't be able to afford aps gear; making me think that you'll probably be sticking to mostly pve.

Comparing sage/demon sin for pvp, they're really pretty equal both have advantages and disadvantages.

Comparing sage/demon sin for pve, well its already pretty well a consensus that demon wins. The easier/cheaper aps increases your dmg by a good margin, which for pve when squads ask for sins thats really pretty much always what they're looking for.

And its not to say that sage sins don't work well but unless they're going to be a main/have a lot of coin put into there gear demon will probably work better, get you into more squads, and allow you to do more things with lesser gear.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Mrvate - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Just from reading your post, I'd guess demon would be a better fit for you. You mention that its an alt and just for fun. And that you want aps and won't be able to afford aps gear; making me think that you'll probably be sticking to mostly pve.

Comparing sage/demon sin for pvp, they're really pretty equal both have advantages and disadvantages.

Comparing sage/demon sin for pve, well its already pretty well a consensus that demon wins. The easier/cheaper aps increases your dmg by a good margin, which for pve when squads ask for sins thats really pretty much always what they're looking for.

And its not to say that sage sins don't work well but unless they're going to be a main/have a lot of coin put into there gear demon will probably work better, get you into more squads, and allow you to do more things with lesser gear.

Actually in PvE they want any sin that doesnt need to be mopped up off the floor. I dont think many other people who main other classes care about sage or demon much as for them, they either view most sins as demon, or just dont care.

Sage isn't really more expensive, it's the aps part that is. If you care that much about 4/5aps, then yes demon is for you, but I farm just as fast as demon's at 3.33 aps with my +10 g16 (vit +hp dags, compared to others with dex adds). May be more of the way I play my sin rather than purely culti, but w/e.

Speaking from a 101 sage sin's perspective.

Raziyal - Archosaur

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Sage isn't really more expensive, it's the aps part that is. If you care that much about 4/5aps, then yes demon is for you, but I farm just as fast as demon's at 3.33 aps with my +10 g16 (vit +hp dags, compared to others with dex adds). May be more of the way I play my sin rather than purely culti, but w/e.

Speaking from a 101 sage sin's perspective.

I'm thinking, later on it may turn into an acutal good toon for me to play with. I want to get into the PvP side of things as i don't know much about PvP (except on a veno)

Even though she won't be my main like my Veno, i would strongly play her quite alot for farming money.

As i said i was swaying to Sage, i already have my Int gear (archer 102 is on the same account and is mainly aps from long long ago) so i will most likely account stash her gear.

Also is it necessary for me to get an int tome? haha alot people keep saying so.

Thank you all for your in sites on sage and demon its rather helped me on what i would like to go.

I've strongly picked Sage, becuse i realise i do have most of the int gear needed already.

From another sage point of veiw, how easy is it to farm the big dungeons? like Warsong (soloing pav) and FC?

Haila - Sanctuary

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Actually in PvE they want any sin that doesnt need to be mopped up off the floor. I dont think many other people who main other classes care about sage or demon much as for them, they either view most sins as demon, or just dont care.

Sage isn't really more expensive, it's the aps part that is. If you care that much about 4/5aps, then yes demon is for you, but I farm just as fast as demon's at 3.33 aps with my +10 g16 (vit +hp dags, compared to others with dex adds). May be more of the way I play my sin rather than purely culti, but w/e.

Speaking from a 101 sage sin's perspective.

Farm herbs ? b:chuckle
You are giving wrong information to OP, a sage sin in pve only has some benefits in better surviving unless it has r8r pieces or triple -int daggers for 5.0 base, doesn't come close to a demon with same level gears.
Ok for bh's or something it doesn't matter much.
And i have a sage and demon 4.0 base on same account XD.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Raziyal - Archosaur wrote: »

I'm thinking, later on it may turn into an acutal good toon for me to play with. I want to get into the PvP side of things as i don't know much about PvP (except on a veno)

Even though she won't be my main like my Veno, i would strongly play her quite alot for farming money.

As i said i was swaying to Sage, i already have my Int gear (archer 102 is on the same account and is mainly aps from long long ago) so i will most likely account stash her gear.

Also is it necessary for me to get an int tome? haha alot people keep saying so.

Thank you all for your in sites on sage and demon its rather helped me on what i would like to go.

I've strongly picked Sage, becuse i realise i do have most of the int gear needed already.

From another sage point of veiw, how easy is it to farm the big dungeons? like Warsong (soloing pav) and FC?

Fc is easy with just about any weapon, my damage per hit is so high I don't even spark on mobs unless I'm pulling at least 15-30 at a time.

Earth Pav, is cake, I don't have to spark unless I run into an increased defense or increased HP mob, but I can also use windsheild or EP or mire to kill them before they explode.

Wood Pav was a little harder, couldn't do it until I +10ed my wep, and it wasn't because I was getting hit hard, it was because I couldn't kill the mobs fast enough. Then sometimes they would purge. There you kind of have to stay sparked a lot, so demon is easier ofc, but I do fine as is.

I don't care what people tell you, and int tome is not neccessary. To be 4/5 aps it is, but not to farm or play your toon. Permasparked is a big thing for sins, but at 3.33 I have a system w/o perma spark. Winsheild is your friend. What I like to do is WS after a boss hits me with a mgk atk (if it missed my spark immunity) for the 25% reduction. It helps a lot to know I can do bosses while unsparked some of the time, mainly because if you rely on spark damage, on bosses in 3-2 and 3-3, you are screwed. Those bosses have a lot of status effects, and you wont always have chi to spark or you may miss some autos for your next spark cycle.

Level your chi skills and you should be fine. Been playing my sin in everything w/o an int tome, hell people think I have one, but I do fine as is. 250m away from my r9 is too much.b:chuckle

Salari - Raging Tide

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Wood Pav was a little harder, couldn't do it until I +10ed my wep, and it wasn't because I was getting hit hard, it was because I couldn't kill the mobs fast enough. Then sometimes they would purge. There you kind of have to stay sparked a lot, so demon is easier ofc, but I do fine as is.

I hardly ever spark in wood pav unless i get a pdef inc mob along with a couple others, other wise i just hit regularly. You just need to keep tidal protection buffed to resist the purges and had enough dmg till kill them before they pop same as in earth

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Salari - Raging Tide wrote: »

I hardly ever spark in wood pav unless i get a pdef inc mob along with a couple others, other wise i just hit regularly. You just need to keep tidal protection buffed to resist the purges and had enough dmg till kill them before they pop same as in earth

Wood mobs rarely pop on me (purge is rare). They have a tendency to reset a lot tho.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

My opinion (having played both) is demon is much better for PvE, sage is a tiny bit better for pvp. Overall, go demon.

~Demon has a better wolf emblem. People will argue "but sage is permanent," but we rarely attack bosses for 30 minutes straight. We do it 20-45 seconds at a time, usually. -.-
~Sage has a mastery that gives >1% more dps. Demon's Crit is more valuable in pvp.
~Sage's paint gives 50% more heals. Most the time my 8k demon sin is surfing at around 12k heals per second, so sage/demon paint doesn't make a difference to me. Also, the difference between a 3.33 aps sage sin and a 5.0 demon sin is the demon attacks 50% faster, and therefore gets 50% more heals making them even... until the sage sin has to skill spam to keep their triple spark and then the sage is getting less paint heals.
~As stated above, demon's will do roughly 50% more damage than an equally geared sage sin. Sure, the sage can windshield up to 3.33 or 4 aps, but then they're removing the damage reduction from their spark and occupying their genie while a demon can use EP or frenzy to further increase the damage difference, or save it for defensive manuevers.
~Gear versatility. For a sage to aps you will be almost guarenteed to be using tt99 HA ornies, tt99LA wrist/boots, r8 chest, N2 pants, -int cape, and -int tome, then have the choice of being 4.0 with G13 daggers, or 3.33 with -.05 int G16s. A demon will have more options to swap gear pieces around for defensive maneuvers to survive better. A sages survivability is more dependant on them being triple sparked.
~Lvl 11 Subsea is awesome for both. A sages Subsea is better for bosses that die under 13 seconds, assuming no other debuffs. A demon's Subsea is better for bosses that take 13.33-63 seconds. Once you add in short debuffs and amps, like HF, sage becomes better again. For survivability purposes, demon is slightly better because its more time with increased paint heals.
~For PvP people favor sages for their Chill of the Deep and Focused Mind and Tidal Protection. I agree with them, although neither is a huge selling point. If you have 140 attack levels endgame, then the extra 35 attack levels of sage CotD is only 14.6% dph. Demon's gives 30 attack levels, only 2.1% dph less. Not huge. I have also had BMs stun me with demon Tidal active which gives damage evasion, and every attack in their stun either missed or was 1 damage. For pvp, I'd still favor sage but the difference isn't huge as sometimes demon's bonus of both damage evasion and status evasion will work out better than more of only 1 or the other.
~Demon Rib Strike is just better. 10% hp of sage will save you about 2 seconds, but demon's increased slow attack rate will save you from taking a ton of damage and probably your life a few times. imo its almost as good as sage triple sparks damage reduction but for the entire squad.
~Demon pvp stun lengths are awesome. Originally people were huge fans of these, but as dph became the hipster thing to do it became less important, then purify weapon procs kind of made it even less important than that.
~I find it funny that every sage who pms when I make a WC squad pms that they have sage paint as a selling point. To me this just means they're a low damage sin. I honestly bought my sage paint more for the 1 hour length then the 3% buff.


So for PvE effectiveness I give a demon an 9/10 near endgame and a sage an 8/10. For 1v1 effectiveness, I give sage a 9/10 and demon an 8.7/10.

Zsw - Dreamweaver

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

~For PvP people favor sages for their Chill of the Deep and Focused Mind and Tidal Protection. I agree with them, although neither is a huge selling point. If you have 140 attack levels endgame, then the extra 35 attack levels of sage CotD is only 14.6% dph. Demon's gives 30 attack levels, only 2.1% dph less. Not huge. I have also had BMs stun me with demon Tidal active which gives damage evasion, and every attack in their stun either missed or was 1 damage. For pvp, I'd still favor sage but the difference isn't huge as sometimes demon's bonus of both damage evasion and status evasion will work out better than more of only 1 or the other.

People favor Sage for PvP because of chi management, not for Chill of the Deep (Although it's better than demon. Who auto attacks in chill?), Focused Mind (No one uses it), or Tidal (But it is a major selling point. You can't kill what you can't stun. ).

Your explanations are mostly pve based. You did not explain how Sage is equal to Demon in PvP (Maybe back in the days, but sage is better for today's pvp). I would advise the OP the following:

@Raziyal, you could alternatively go Demon and farm gears, then switch to Sage. But that is your personal preference. If you want to just go pure pve, then once you have gears go pure pvp, you could do that. If you want to do PvE mixed in with PvP, Sage is better for the PvP part, and isn't that bad in PvE if you have every single -int gear like you said. I don't farm instances anymore after I switched to Sage since I've pretty much quit. Sorry.

Rekabu - Archosaur

i 100% agree with 1st 2 post sage is way way better for dph clearly cuz of the chi management +some skill r just much better than demon.. as a demon dph sin i can tell u that i really n actually some times find myself out of chi which is very very very irritating especial while doing 1v1 where u cant even stealth n get 1spark xD...
u can get demon for farming to get ur end game gear...
1advice don't buy any demon skill if u gonna shift xD

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

My opinion (having played both) is demon is much better for PvE, sage is a tiny bit better for pvp. Overall, go demon.

~Demon has a better wolf emblem. People will argue "but sage is permanent," but we rarely attack bosses for 30 minutes straight. We do it 20-45 seconds at a time, usually. -.-
~Sage has a mastery that gives >1% more dps. Demon's Crit is more valuable in pvp.
~Sage's paint gives 50% more heals. Most the time my 8k demon sin is surfing at around 12k heals per second, so sage/demon paint doesn't make a difference to me. Also, the difference between a 3.33 aps sage sin and a 5.0 demon sin is the demon attacks 50% faster, and therefore gets 50% more heals making them even... until the sage sin has to skill spam to keep their triple spark and then the sage is getting less paint heals.
~As stated above, demon's will do roughly 50% more damage than an equally geared sage sin. Sure, the sage can windshield up to 3.33 or 4 aps, but then they're removing the damage reduction from their spark and occupying their genie while a demon can use EP or frenzy to further increase the damage difference, or save it for defensive manuevers.
~Gear versatility. For a sage to aps you will be almost guarenteed to be using tt99 HA ornies, tt99LA wrist/boots, r8 chest, N2 pants, -int cape, and -int tome, then have the choice of being 4.0 with G13 daggers, or 3.33 with -.05 int G16s. A demon will have more options to swap gear pieces around for defensive maneuvers to survive better. A sages survivability is more dependant on them being triple sparked.
~Lvl 11 Subsea is awesome for both. A sages Subsea is better for bosses that die under 13 seconds, assuming no other debuffs. A demon's Subsea is better for bosses that take 13.33-63 seconds. Once you add in short debuffs and amps, like HF, sage becomes better again. For survivability purposes, demon is slightly better because its more time with increased paint heals.
~For PvP people favor sages for their Chill of the Deep and Focused Mind and Tidal Protection. I agree with them, although neither is a huge selling point. If you have 140 attack levels endgame, then the extra 35 attack levels of sage CotD is only 14.6% dph. Demon's gives 30 attack levels, only 2.1% dph less. Not huge. I have also had BMs stun me with demon Tidal active which gives damage evasion, and every attack in their stun either missed or was 1 damage. For pvp, I'd still favor sage but the difference isn't huge as sometimes demon's bonus of both damage evasion and status evasion will work out better than more of only 1 or the other.
~Demon Rib Strike is just better. 10% hp of sage will save you about 2 seconds, but demon's increased slow attack rate will save you from taking a ton of damage and probably your life a few times. imo its almost as good as sage triple sparks damage reduction but for the entire squad.
~Demon pvp stun lengths are awesome. Originally people were huge fans of these, but as dph became the hipster thing to do it became less important, then purify weapon procs kind of made it even less important than that.
~I find it funny that every sage who pms when I make a WC squad pms that they have sage paint as a selling point. To me this just means they're a low damage sin. I honestly bought my sage paint more for the 1 hour length then the 3% buff.


So for PvE effectiveness I give a demon an 9/10 near endgame and a sage an 8/10. For 1v1 effectiveness, I give sage a 9/10 and demon an 8.7/10.

I have a few responses to this, I pretty much aggree but lets clear up a few things.

1.) Bosses tend to last more than 20-45 secs, and so do a lot of endgame fights (small groups or 1v1 unless you get focused hard). Sage evens out the wolf eblems for any fight that last until the cd comeback up. They both are useful, in their own respects.

2.) I compared my T3 G16 +10(18vit+350HP) to another demon sins T3 G16+10(18 dex+max physical attack 130), and I had about 600-800 more physical attack than he did 9889-10689, and he had 20 more dex than I did. Once you get into higher refines the damage on sage mastery increases over demon by a wider margin, also once you get better weapons, and more dex multipliers this becomes even wider. Crit is stagnant, the %increase over demon however is not. Personally, my damage is so predictable as a sage sin I can tell wether I can 1 shot someone with a knifethrow crit, based on their pdef alone, all they have to do is tell me what it is.

3.) Once again sage paint gives increasing returns based on the sage mutilplier(1.5) over demon, but also the damage mastery which gives increasing returns once again.

4.) I disown any sin that puts frenzy on a genie that they farm with. It's inexcusable. Sins are already squishy as ** and then you reduce your defense? Hope w/e ur hitting frenzies and 1 shots ya.

5.) Sage focused mind and Tidal, nuff said. Both passive, also demon survivability tends to be based on auto attacking last time I checked >.>, sage damage reduction is passive.

6.)Completely agree on subsea

7.) Sage focused mind and tidal were selling pionts for me, also an extra 30secs on Deadenb:dirty.

8.) 10% off anti aps bosses, and bosses with 5m+ hp, when there is no archer in squad.

9.)Anti stuns other than purify (now people actually use them thanks to all the A-hole aps sins from 1 year ago).

10.) I abosulutely hate that. Sage paint won't get you into my squads (I have my own paint), but yea advertising sage paint screams desperation, just like 5 aps demons sins who advertise. They both scream low damage sin.

Your last point was kind of screwed. For one, the culti's break even, I don't care how you wanna slice it. Once you compare ALL SITUATIONS not just particular ones, and give an established critiria, they make a lot of sense, as to why the skills are the way they are and how they can be used (in theory especially). The only sage/ demon skils that have ****ty adds are:
Demon Throat cut
Demon Shadow walk
Sage Shadow walk

/END RANT

tsyfall

Going to be criticizing from a PvP standpoint here. I'm a huge advocate of Sage DPH, but I do think that sage/demon are equal from an APS standpoint. PvE I advocate demon but it's really not that much of a difference to go sage for farming.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

My opinion (having played both) is demon is much better for PvE, sage is a tiny bit better for pvp. Overall, go demon.

~Demon has a better wolf emblem. People will argue "but sage is permanent," but we rarely attack bosses for 30 minutes straight. We do it 20-45 seconds at a time, usually. -.-

The real gain that sages have from Wolf Emblem is an instant 10 chi gain in PvP every 8 seconds. This may not seem like much but spammed, it accumulates to a total of 7.5 fury bars every 10 minutes. Furthermore, it allows as an instant "fury bar capper" - for example, while a demon might consider doublespark>inner harmony>headhunt, a sage would simply doublespark>wolf emblem>headhunt at full chi. This would preserve Inner Harmony for other more dire circumstances, again pointing to Sage Chi Dominance in PvP.

~Sage has a mastery that gives >1% more dps. Demon's Crit is more valuable in pvp.
Agreed.

~Sage's paint gives 50% more heals. Most the time my 8k demon sin is surfing at around 12k heals per second, so sage/demon paint doesn't make a difference to me. Also, the difference between a 3.33 aps sage sin and a 5.0 demon sin is the demon attacks 50% faster, and therefore gets 50% more heals making them even... until the sage sin has to skill spam to keep their triple spark and then the sage is getting less paint heals.
Demon sin has always been able to ask a Sage sin for BP, so this point has been and always been permanently moot.

~As stated above, demon's will do roughly 50% more damage than an equally geared sage sin. Sure, the sage can windshield up to 3.33 or 4 aps, but then they're removing the damage reduction from their spark and occupying their genie while a demon can use EP or frenzy to further increase the damage difference, or save it for defensive manuevers.
I agree that demon is passively aggressive against bosses, and uses chi for defensive maneuvers. However, sages are passively defensive against bosses, and use chi for offensive maneuvers. This is a matter of personal preference more than anything else.

~Gear versatility. For a sage to aps you will be almost guarenteed to be using tt99 HA ornies, tt99LA wrist/boots, r8 chest, N2 pants, -int cape, and -int tome, then have the choice of being 4.0 with G13 daggers, or 3.33 with -.05 int G16s. A demon will have more options to swap gear pieces around for defensive maneuvers to survive better. A sages survivability is more dependant on them being triple sparked.
At this point in the game with G13, G16, and R9S3, most bosses really need an amping. If you're suggesting that a sin "swap around gear for defensive maneuvers", and said sin can indeed afford that set of gear, their primary gear will probably be enough to tank the boss anyways.

~Lvl 11 Subsea is awesome for both. A sages Subsea is better for bosses that die under 13 seconds, assuming no other debuffs. A demon's Subsea is better for bosses that take 13.33-63 seconds. Once you add in short debuffs and amps, like HF, sage becomes better again. For survivability purposes, demon is slightly better because its more time with increased paint heals.
Agreed.

~For PvP people favor sages for their Chill of the Deep and Focused Mind and Tidal Protection. I agree with them, although neither is a huge selling point. If you have 140 attack levels endgame, then the extra 35 attack levels of sage CotD is only 14.6% dph.
Demon's gives 30 attack levels, only 2.1% dph less. Not huge.

It isn't as small as you make it out to be, lmao. Sure, 140 attack levels endgame, +35 to 175. But you forget (or ignore) that there are people walking around with 120 defense levels. In that case, 20% more dps vs 55% more dps is definitely more impressive (29.2% increase). Sage-Demon =~ 4% dph less. Double your original calculation.

And if you make the point that some people don't have 100 defense levels - well, the only way a sin can really get 175 attack levels is if they're 3rd cast, and 3rd cast sin vs non-deflevel-char = shiit instantly. So no point in debating that.

I have also had BMs stun me with demon Tidal active which gives damage evasion, and every attack in their stun either missed or was 1 damage. For pvp, I'd still favor sage but the difference isn't huge as sometimes demon's bonus of both damage evasion and status evasion will work out better than more of only 1 or the other.

Demon is a semiactive buff. You can literally count on sage, as having sage tidal fundamentally changes your playstyle as a sin. No longer do you need to fortify or worry about debuffs in tidal - you can act as if they didn't exist, and deal with the flukes that come up. Indeed, you'll be able to cycle your antistuns with sage tidal, effectively rendering yourself unstunnable.

The benefits are more than concrete. Psychological changes in your opponents also favor sage tidal. Will your friendly neighborhood BM try to HF you if they have a 66% chance to fail? Probably not. Will they on 50%? They might take the risk. Either way, sages have an advantage of debuffs where most people won't even attempt debuffs on a sage sin (0% debuff) vs demon, who will get attempted to debuff (50% debuff).

~Demon Rib Strike is just better. 10% hp of sage will save you about 2 seconds, but demon's increased slow attack rate will save you from taking a ton of damage and probably your life a few times. imo its almost as good as sage triple sparks damage reduction but for the entire squad.
Not necessarily for the entire squad. Only the person melee tanking it, which is probably going to be an aps high-bp-return character, who could care less. Furthermore, ribstrike devastates a boss's existing attack pattern, making it significantly more difficult to predict and counter lethal debuffs. Examine Asterelle's attempt at Harpy Wraith - completely time based, Ast was only able to solo because of exact timing. Ribstrike would have screwed over.

~Demon pvp stun lengths are awesome. Originally people were huge fans of these, but as dph became the hipster thing to do it became less important, then purify weapon procs kind of made it even less important than that.
The only time you're going to worry about Demon stun lengths is if you're aps, where those 3.33 extra attacks matter. When you're DPH sin, which is the only viable path at endgame if you want to walk around as more than just a glass cannon, then 1 second extra isn't much. Chances are you've already channeled a skill - that 1 extra second will just cover the cast time, where you can't do anything anyways.

~I find it funny that every sage who pms when I make a WC squad pms that they have sage paint as a selling point. To me this just means they're a low damage sin. I honestly bought my sage paint more for the 1 hour length then the 3% buff.

Some sage sins aren't idiots, you know. I grabbed aggro from S3 demon sins simply because my sage tidal resisted more stun debuffs and I was able to keep up with sparking through my voluminous chi skills. Skill>Cultivation>Gear.

So for PvE effectiveness I give a demon an 9/10 near endgame and a sage an 8/10. For 1v1 effectiveness, I give sage a 9/10 and demon an 8.7/10.

I agree with your PvE, but I'm giving sage a 10/10 and demon a 6/10. Look at Skai - demon, quite successful, but you'll notice he NEVER sets up decent chi combos. If he didn't have the capability to zerkcrit 80% of his target's HP he'd never be able to kill anyone. Simply put, DPH sins depend on chi at endgame to dish out sufficient damage, and demons just don't measure up to that.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

tsyfall wrote: »

Going to be criticizing from a PvP standpoint here. I'm a huge advocate of Sage DPH, but I do think that sage/demon are equal from an APS standpoint. PvE I advocate demon but it's really not that much of a difference to go sage for farming.

Admittedly, I'm looking at it things from a PvE perspective since that's what the OP asked. I also only have about 15-20 hours of pk on my sin and 10 TWs. PvP is such a small part of the game for me and many others and it gets boring fast.

Very good points and I always forget sage sins can spam WE for chi, and as you said its a great "capper" to push you from 99 chi up to a full spark instead of IH or Tackling Slash. Unfortunately, WE seems super rare on my server and I never ever never see sage sins buffing WE except for a rare few who only do pvp. I chose to leave my sage sins WE at level 10 because it wasn't worth the coin to me, and I'm good about spamming my WE so 30% for 60 seconds then 60 second cd is more important to me then 20% permanently. But you do have a great point about the chi.

For chi management, as a demon I rarely have chi issues in pvp and pretty much never have them in pve. Hadn't really considered people were going sage for the chi on a sin, lol.

Great point about the difference of CotD with opponent defense levels. I find most people don't have more than 75 def levels, though. The bulk being either vit or other Dot/Deity builds, or just not into endgame sharding yet considering it can cost you twice as much to shard your gear then it does to get full r9t3.

I don't agree on the psychological effects of sage v demon tidals. First, no one is HFing a sin, waste of two sparks because most classes can still 1 shot a sin even in r9t3. I still am gonna try to stun a sage sin as much as a demon. It may be psychological for others but like I said, the 1 shot risk is just as important as avoiding the stun. Overall I agree it favors sage but its very situational, ie. EP lands on the sage sin and they get 1 shot vs EP landing on the demon and they avoid the damage vs the situation where EP doesn't land on the sage and they survive but it lands on the demon and they get 1 shot.

Some sage sins aren't idiots, you're right. Some demon's aren't idiots, either, why aren't they spark resisting the boss stuns and debuffs and FMing the damage.

You pointed out Skai as an excellent example of a successful demon pvper, and my server has a pretty even split of sins who are good at pvp being demon and being sage. What I've noticed is people who are agressive in their pvp style demon works better for them, people who are patient and willing to kite of cds sage works better for them. Demon sins tend to kill you very quickly or die just as quickly. Sage tend to have 10 minute fights and are hard as ** to kill but have about the same success rate as demons. Just personal playstyle preference at that point. I tend to think of sins as an agressive "kill them before they get you" and that the best defense is a good offense so I play demon and it works for me. More cautious, defense based players tend to go sage. I'm perfectly comfortable with my sin bouncing from 15% hp to 100% back to 8% hp back to 100% then to 16% hp then to 100% again because I know I'm not gonna die if I keep attacking, but for some people anything below 50% is "I almost died" and they should go sage, lol.

Dion:
1. Bosses- only if you're soloing do any (even WBs) tend to go over 1 min. Pvp- You're right, alot of fights do .
2. You compared and had 700 more damage. When you triple spark, you'll still only have 700 more damage but he'll be attacking 50% more often and at 21k ave spark damage 700 isn't very much. From those number he should be doing about +45% more damage then you. Higher refines grow both cultis since you'll get 90% of what the refine added, but you'll also be critting on that value, too. Higher dex favors demon, not sage. Dex doesn't effect your mastery, but it does add to your damage which is what crit works off of. Growth at endgame favors demon but not enough to really matter, ultimately its around .5-1.1% which is a 'who cares' value.

btw... pretty sure demon still has the highest dph possibility because of demon WE so sage arguments for dph are normally kind of moot imo. Sure you have dph based mastery and CotD but I can 40% WE and that about even things out 60 seconds at a time. The rest of the time I'm walking between mobs or bosses, or kiting people.
4. Frenzy is great when you're buffed, horid when unbuffed. Frenzy removes defense from your gear value, not overal. I could look in game for real numbers, but if I have cleric and bm buffs it's like -15% of my defense but gives me more than that in increased paint heals. I always opt for EP over frenzy and so EP + 20 attack levels is usually around 25% more dps from the frenzy add, which is fine to lose -15% def for since I heal it back.
5. Demon is based on auto attack but sage is based on triple sparking which also requires chi generation. Not sure what the point is...
8. Most anti-aps bosses don't Soul Infect. Puppeteer and Seat bosses don't at least. That means the sage add is pointless for anti-aps bosses in general. For them, archers, and venos. Even on 5m + hp bosses 10% hp should come off really really quickly, especially since thats when all the debuffs happen. Wasting 2 seconds to channel Rib while there is an HF active isn't a great idea.
9. Aps is still the best dps in the game, even in pvp. If you come up against a high hp opponent you'll usually swap to aps because some barbs, bms, and seekers aren't going down without it. I know on my BM it'd take an 80% zerk crit rate with my r9t3 axes to equal the ave damage of me apsing with G16 claws, which just isn't gonna happen. The problem is people have learned to counter aps. That, and charm jumping is better than charm racing.
10. Like I said, sage paint usually does absolutely nothing for me since 1 second of aps heals full whether its 2% or 3% adds. The better peoples dmg and defenses get the less they care about sage paint. Its still nice to have occasionally, but its not something I care about too much. On the other hand, a demon pming 5 aps sin can either mean they have r8r -.2 int r9t3 godly gear and 300k dps... or they have G13 Barrier Thorns and 155k dps. Doesn't tell me a whole lot, but it does tell me they have 4 pieces tt99, Nirvana pants, possibly a -int tome, and more than likely G15 or G16 (why stop at G13 anymore unless you're sage?) and that means they're somewhat endgame. Least I can guess that much.

11. As I said, personal preference. For playing a sin how I think a sin should be played, demon works great for me.

Wall of text again >.<

Zsw - Dreamweaver

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

For chi management, as a demon I rarely have chi issues in pvp and pretty much never have them in pve. Hadn't really considered people were going sage for the chi on a sin, lol.

Seeing as you primarily do PvE, your sin is probably APS. APS sins don't have problems with chi. But nor can they kill casters who knows their class end game, and nor will they be a major factor in Mass pk or TW.

DPH sins can eliminate casters end game, and be a major factor in pk and tw. But for that, they will have problems with chi, which is why they go sage.

No sin is getting 1 shot in r9rr.

I highly advise anyone serious about end game pvp to go sage. But then again, the number of serious end game sin pvpers are far and few in between.

tsyfall

I'm impressed that you didn't deluge me with a mass of calculations. This shows great improvement from your confrontations with Olbaze! Although, admittedly, you two were focused on the same part of the game while I am unfortunately on a different plane.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

For chi management, as a demon I rarely have chi issues in pvp and pretty much never have them in pve. Hadn't really considered people were going sage for the chi on a sin, lol.

It's one of the main selling points for sage sin. Inner Harmony, Rising Dragon, chi conservation on HH, WE, and Li's all grant sage sin pretty much double the chi briefcase that a demon will ever have.

Great point about the difference of CotD with opponent defense levels. I find most people don't have more than 75 def levels, though. The bulk being either vit or other Dot/Deity builds, or just not into endgame sharding yet considering it can cost you twice as much to shard your gear then it does to get full r9t3.

Sage sin's output of damage is just ridiculously high because of it's available chi (my most common high-chi sequence consumes seven bars of fury alone). Demon sins have more DPH-based skills, as you've mentioned - such as slipstream - but ultimately non-buffed skills aren't going to be enough to kill someone. Buffing your own damage as a sin requires chi - thus pointing to the sage path.

The passage above suggests why you don't see too many sins on your server who are demon - or like Skai, demon as well - having trouble. Without JosD balance, people without a solid defense sharding, such as vit, are just insanely squishy. In this case, a DPH sin's damage is so high a competent sin recognizes that no "chi-amping" is required. If everyone had Vit sharding, you'd see a significantly higher population of demons who would have trouble with tanky players.


Some sage sins aren't idiots, you're right. Some demon's aren't idiots, either, why aren't they spark resisting the boss stuns and debuffs and FMing the damage.

Skill>Culti/Gear. Unless, of course, Culti refers to level 11 Cashshop Mastery.

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

No sin is getting 1 shot in r9rr.

Somewhere in this video Bait got hit for 41K lol

Zsw - Dreamweaver

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Somewhere in this video Bait got hit for 41K lol

Yeah, but that's not a 1 shot :P
(Deaden Nerve ftw)

On a serious note, not many people are going to land debuffs on a sage sin in tidal protection.

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

41K in pvp tho, gg

Great. Now I've started doing it too

Zsw - Dreamweaver

walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

41k In Pvp Tho, Gg

Great. Now I've Started Doing It Too

LOL GG

I just discovered that you can't type all caps o.o

tsyfall

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

41K in pvp tho, gg

Great. Now I've started doing it too

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

On a serious note, that was without JosD though. As well as a crit. o_o I think a normal sparked combo would not kill - only a crit would.

GG btw

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Admittedly, I'm looking at it things from a PvE perspective since that's what the OP asked. I also only have about 15-20 hours of pk on my sin and 10 TWs. PvP is such a small part of the game for me and many others and it gets boring fast.

Very good points and I always forget sage sins can spam WE for chi, and as you said its a great "capper" to push you from 99 chi up to a full spark instead of IH or Tackling Slash. Unfortunately, WE seems super rare on my server and I never ever never see sage sins buffing WE except for a rare few who only do pvp. I chose to leave my sage sins WE at level 10 because it wasn't worth the coin to me, and I'm good about spamming my WE so 30% for 60 seconds then 60 second cd is more important to me then 20% permanently. But you do have a great point about the chi.

For chi management, as a demon I rarely have chi issues in pvp and pretty much never have them in pve. Hadn't really considered people were going sage for the chi on a sin, lol.

Great point about the difference of CotD with opponent defense levels. I find most people don't have more than 75 def levels, though. The bulk being either vit or other Dot/Deity builds, or just not into endgame sharding yet considering it can cost you twice as much to shard your gear then it does to get full r9t3.

I don't agree on the psychological effects of sage v demon tidals. First, no one is HFing a sin, waste of two sparks because most classes can still 1 shot a sin even in r9t3. I still am gonna try to stun a sage sin as much as a demon. It may be psychological for others but like I said, the 1 shot risk is just as important as avoiding the stun. Overall I agree it favors sage but its very situational, ie. EP lands on the sage sin and they get 1 shot vs EP landing on the demon and they avoid the damage vs the situation where EP doesn't land on the sage and they survive but it lands on the demon and they get 1 shot.

Some sage sins aren't idiots, you're right. Some demon's aren't idiots, either, why aren't they spark resisting the boss stuns and debuffs and FMing the damage.

You pointed out Skai as an excellent example of a successful demon pvper, and my server has a pretty even split of sins who are good at pvp being demon and being sage. What I've noticed is people who are agressive in their pvp style demon works better for them, people who are patient and willing to kite of cds sage works better for them. Demon sins tend to kill you very quickly or die just as quickly. Sage tend to have 10 minute fights and are hard as ** to kill but have about the same success rate as demons. Just personal playstyle preference at that point. I tend to think of sins as an agressive "kill them before they get you" and that the best defense is a good offense so I play demon and it works for me. More cautious, defense based players tend to go sage. I'm perfectly comfortable with my sin bouncing from 15% hp to 100% back to 8% hp back to 100% then to 16% hp then to 100% again because I know I'm not gonna die if I keep attacking, but for some people anything below 50% is "I almost died" and they should go sage, lol.

Dion:
1. Bosses- only if you're soloing do any (even WBs) tend to go over 1 min. Pvp- You're right, alot of fights do .
2. You compared and had 700 more damage. When you triple spark, you'll still only have 700 more damage but he'll be attacking 50% more often and at 21k ave spark damage 700 isn't very much. From those number he should be doing about +45% more damage then you. Higher refines grow both cultis since you'll get 90% of what the refine added, but you'll also be critting on that value, too. Higher dex favors demon, not sage. Dex doesn't effect your mastery, but it does add to your damage which is what crit works off of. Growth at endgame favors demon but not enough to really matter, ultimately its around .5-1.1% which is a 'who cares' value.

btw... pretty sure demon still has the highest dph possibility because of demon WE so sage arguments for dph are normally kind of moot imo. Sure you have dph based mastery and CotD but I can 40% WE and that about even things out 60 seconds at a time. The rest of the time I'm walking between mobs or bosses, or kiting people.
4. Frenzy is great when you're buffed, horid when unbuffed. Frenzy removes defense from your gear value, not overal. I could look in game for real numbers, but if I have cleric and bm buffs it's like -15% of my defense but gives me more than that in increased paint heals. I always opt for EP over frenzy and so EP + 20 attack levels is usually around 25% more dps from the frenzy add, which is fine to lose -15% def for since I heal it back.
5. Demon is based on auto attack but sage is based on triple sparking which also requires chi generation. Not sure what the point is...
8. Most anti-aps bosses don't Soul Infect. Puppeteer and Seat bosses don't at least. That means the sage add is pointless for anti-aps bosses in general. For them, archers, and venos. Even on 5m + hp bosses 10% hp should come off really really quickly, especially since thats when all the debuffs happen. Wasting 2 seconds to channel Rib while there is an HF active isn't a great idea.
9. Aps is still the best dps in the game, even in pvp. If you come up against a high hp opponent you'll usually swap to aps because some barbs, bms, and seekers aren't going down without it. I know on my BM it'd take an 80% zerk crit rate with my r9t3 axes to equal the ave damage of me apsing with G16 claws, which just isn't gonna happen. The problem is people have learned to counter aps. That, and charm jumping is better than charm racing.
10. Like I said, sage paint usually does absolutely nothing for me since 1 second of aps heals full whether its 2% or 3% adds. The better peoples dmg and defenses get the less they care about sage paint. Its still nice to have occasionally, but its not something I care about too much. On the other hand, a demon pming 5 aps sin can either mean they have r8r -.2 int r9t3 godly gear and 300k dps... or they have G13 Barrier Thorns and 155k dps. Doesn't tell me a whole lot, but it does tell me they have 4 pieces tt99, Nirvana pants, possibly a -int tome, and more than likely G15 or G16 (why stop at G13 anymore unless you're sage?) and that means they're somewhat endgame. Least I can guess that much.

11. As I said, personal preference. For playing a sin how I think a sin should be played, demon works great for me.

Wall of text again >.<

Freak accidents happen with soloing, that **** in 3-2 and 3-3 is bad. 50%-100% in a hit means that if the boss does a random magic atk you might be screwed. As for the omg thing about sages, anytime something drops you below 50% hp pretty quicky, it means it will kill you in an extended fight, that means you aren't as safe as you may think (random magic attack). As for the best defense is a good offense, that only applies to things that you can actually attack!

1.) I do almost everything w/o clerics these days, most of it solo.

2.) It's 45% more atk speed, not 45% more damage, its not a linear line for damage. As for crit >.>, sage powerdash gives more crit than your mastery, more impactful when soloing. Your dps possibility gets shafted when that WE wears off.

5.) I was talking about the survival bonuses of the culti spark for sins. Sage spark buff is passive, which in situations where you can not attack aps is essentially useless, is more beneficial seeing as sins are chi machines.

10.) Most sage sins I know are g15 or above, and the only one i know with g15 has 2x int and GoF >.>, I find that demons are more likely to stick with g13 that their sage counter parts. You are right about better geared people caring less about it, however I'd rather have a +10 r9.3 set than a +10 aps set first.

11.) My main problem was when you said "HOW SINS SHOULD BE PLAYED", as if that applies to all sins. We don't all have the same gears, even in aps sets there is variation between those with similar refines. Demon works great for you, I don't disagree, but you don't have a sage sin, and I take it you dont play one either, so how can you be sure? You mixed subjectivity (personal preference) with objectivity (how a sin should be played in all cases). Big no-no.b:chuckle

I don't mind your preferense or what works atm for you. But you made some absolute statements there based on your opinion.b:chuckle

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

Considering Demon QS (30% attack speed) translates to 40-45% increased DPS for archers...

Yea.

let's compare 3.33 to 5.0

http://pwcalc.com/9d79f86c5dca4315 5.0 Demon

http://pwcalc.com/019f1ebcecc2670a 3.33 Sage, which would be 4.0 Windshield but we're arguing 3.33 so nvm

5.0: 251734.2 DPS
3.33: 167668.2 DPS

Difference: 50.1% lol

APS is about the only thing in this game that gets increasing gains as it stacks, gg

In PVE only ofc. In PVP Sage Tidal alone is good enough to tip the balance. 67% debuff evasion too OP

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Considering Demon QS (30% attack speed) translates to 40-45% increased DPS for archers...

Yea.

let's compare 3.33 to 5.0

http://pwcalc.com/9d79f86c5dca4315 5.0 Demon

http://pwcalc.com/019f1ebcecc2670a 3.33 Sage, which would be 4.0 Windshield but we're arguing 3.33 so nvm

5.0: 251734.2 DPS
3.33: 167668.2 DPS

Difference: 50.1% lol

APS is about the only thing in this game that gets increasing gains as it stacks, gg

In PVE only ofc. In PVP Sage Tidal alone is good enough to tip the balance. 67% debuff evasion too OP

167688.2/251734.2=0.6660525

I got a 43.4% difference from those numbers o.o. Did I do something wrong? Can you do one w/o pangu, and another with windsheild for both?

VILKASSS - Sanctuary

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

167688.2/251734.2=0.6660525

I got a 43.4% difference from those numbers o.o. Did I do something wrong? Can you do one w/o pangu, and another with windsheild for both?

Why do you think you farm as fast demons in your first post of this thread, sure you can do the same things saver but certainly not as fast b:nosebleed

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

VILKASSS - Sanctuary wrote: »

Why do you think you farm as fast demons in your first post of this thread, sure you can do the same things saver but certainly not as fast b:nosebleed

Because like someone already mention, most demons sins don't bother amping their own damage the way we sages sort of have to, hence that allows me to catch up and surpass them in a lot of cases, especially when farming solo. Sure demon sins can do the exact same thing as I do, but truth be told they generally don't, just like I generally use windsheild (Walpurga). Then there is the 4/5 aps damage reduction that I don't get at 3.33, and sage powerdash.

My aps gear: http://pwcalc.com/567815c401df09cd

My physical attack is about 150 higher than that, so not exact but close. Added physical attack on neck to account for my engraving, was looking for vit or dex but w/e.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Zsw: My sin is in an aps set, but for pvp I'll borrow many of my BM and Archers pieces and have neck and belt on swap. Aps set doesn't mean I can't be a dph sin, just means I'm still squishy while I do it, lol. Since r9t3 became the norm I haven't been pking on him as much. It took almost 5 years to settle down and pick a class but lately I've focused on my BM. r9 opponents weren't an issue for sins but r9t3 introduced some issues. Purify proc made casters un-apsable while r9t3 defenses made endgame barb/bm hard to kill without aps. Gear on swap and going back and forth between CotD depending on need is normally the best option.

I did just hit a r9t3 sin for 15.4k damage with +8 axes, btw. Casters and seekers hit my bm for huge numbers (Highest I've seen recently was 33k) and he has 21k mdef and 55 def levels in full r9t3, probably about twice as much as most sins.

Tsy: I still math. I mean... its a computer game. Graphics and realism is all played out in our mind and whats actually happening is mathmatics and computer code. At this point, though, it's easier just to point at an old post and say "the maths been done before" then to redo it.

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Freak accidents happen with soloing, that **** in 3-2 and 3-3 is bad. 50%-100% in a hit means that if the boss does a random magic atk you might be screwed. As for the omg thing about sages, anytime something drops you below 50% hp pretty quicky, it means it will kill you in an extended fight, that means you aren't as safe as you may think (random magic attack). As for the best defense is a good offense, that only applies to things that you can actually attack!

1.) I do almost everything w/o clerics these days, most of it solo.

2.) It's 45% more atk speed, not 45% more damage, its not a linear line for damage. As for crit >.>, sage powerdash gives more crit than your mastery, more impactful when soloing. Your dps possibility gets shafted when that WE wears off.

5.) I was talking about the survival bonuses of the culti spark for sins. Sage spark buff is passive, which in situations where you can not attack aps is essentially useless, is more beneficial seeing as sins are chi machines.

10.) Most sage sins I know are g15 or above, and the only one i know with g15 has 2x int and GoF >.>, I find that demons are more likely to stick with g13 that their sage counter parts. You are right about better geared people caring less about it, however I'd rather have a +10 r9.3 set than a +10 aps set first.

11.) My main problem was when you said "HOW SINS SHOULD BE PLAYED", as if that applies to all sins. We don't all have the same gears, even in aps sets there is variation between those with similar refines. Demon works great for you, I don't disagree, but you don't have a sage sin, and I take it you dont play one either, so how can you be sure? You mixed subjectivity (personal preference) with objectivity (how a sin should be played in all cases). Big no-no.b:chuckle

I don't mind your preferense or what works atm for you. But you made some absolute statements there based on your opinion.b:chuckle

Lots wrong with this post. First, I started as a sage sin. I was sage before it sage and dph became the trend. I'm talking from experience, although I didn't like my sage sin as much as my demon and rarely play him anymore.

I was using the examples of sins being near death to illustrate a point. Demon sins wont constantly be in the bottom of 25% of their hp with every hit, lol. I was just pointing out that some of us are more comfortable recieving a lot of damage, others prefer to be more defensive. It's like charms drive me nuts on my bm because I normally won't heal until I'm within only 30% hp left. I know others that start spamming pots while they're full hp and being healed. It's comfort levels. Demon's both receive and deal more damage, while sage recieve and deal less. Depends on the player which they prefer.

I have one friend who constantly prefers def over attack. He's the type of player who will +10 his armors before he +5s his weapon. He just restat his sage sin to HA for more hp and defense. Its a spectrum of dd->defense with people who prefer dps to be on the demon side and people who prefer def

2. Simplified, dps=dph x aps. If you're comparing 5.0 demon (aps setup and -.05 weapon) with 3.33 sage (aps setup and -.05 weapon) then you have a 50% attack rate different and should expected the demon to do 50% more damage. I was giving you a slight dph edge and lowering my guess of 50% to only 45% to be generous.

Now, all sorts of things are wrong with your statement here. You need IH to permaspark, but you want to use it to powerdash instead. Fine. I recently did the math for you in another thread showing Subsea gives you more DD than PD. As a 3.33 sin you lose 4 attacks from the 1.2 channel+cast time of PD to gain 50% crit rate for 8 seconds, or 26 attacks. Overall, this is around an 11-15% dps gain (going from 40% crit rate to a 90% crit rate is a 35% dps increase only, not 50%) and then when you subtract the dps lost from 1.2 seconds of casting PD its about 15%. Demon is only about 12% dps gain.

Congratulations, they were 50% ahead of you and now they're only 47%. But wait, there's more. They had their WE active for 1.4x their 80% crit rate. You only had yours active for 1.2 x 90% crit rate. They've now pulled even farther ahead.

Gets better, you used IH up so that you could PD, so if you need to spark a second time you have to RDS or Tackling Slash wasting 1.6-2 seconds. They attack 8-10 times while you attack once. Remember that precious sage damage reduction? It's gone during this time and you aren't getting paint heals either.

Although, Walpurga explained this pretty well.

5. K, there are very few anti-aps bosses. Looking at your core connect it seems you've played sin about 6 months and PWI just over a year. Seat boss and Puppeteer are about it. For both of those you will probably have a dedicated tank, and for Puppeteer I still aps. The dps is lower then skill spam but I'm triple sparked and ready when he spawns clones to stun and aps them down in about 4 seconds. Makes the boss much easier. Many attacks, like Aba and Seat BH bosses initial attacks are statuses and aren't reduced by damage reduction of sparks or even barb invoke. In these cases paint heal is much better.

There are some bosses that will stun/seal and aps does nothing but damage reduction helps. Well, apsing prior to getting stunned means you can spark resist more than a sage and avoid the stun altogether. You can also drop to 4.0 or 3.33 with gear swaps and essentially gain the 25% def from gear, and swap back to higher dps when you chose. Gear swaps are an option demons have in pve more than sage since our sparks cover some of our -int.

10. Olba and I did the math a while ago for G13 4 aps vs 2.86 r9 (first tier) for sages. For one spark r9 wins by 14% , even though G13 attacks 40% faster, but once R9 starts having to skill spam to keep permasparked G13 can catchup and out dd r9. 4 aps is easy permaspark, 3.33 is not, so 4 aps allows sages to use their IH for Subsea, PD, or keep it in reserve so many have G13s for this reason. G15 would drop you to 3.33 and would only allow you to do it for 2 sparks.

11. You're misquoting me and taking it our of context. I said

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

For playing a sin how I think a sin should be played, demon works great for me.

I also eluded to more defensive players would favor sage, as well as players mostly focused on pvp. I didn't say it, but player coin also makes a difference in picking culti for some. Sages can solo things earlier since the 25% spark reduction works like a 33% boost to hp, and while a 6k hp sin isn't soloing much, a 9k sin can. On the other hand, to keep aps up an expensive -int tome is also almost required for sages.

As I've already said, I've played sage sin, still do and it doesn't work for me. It feels more like I'm playing a sword bm with slower attack rate, slightly higher dph, and better defenses.

*Looks over your personal statements* I think I've represented both sides of the argument pretty well. Looking over your statements, where you seem rather new to sin, goal oriented (subjective) towards sage, and have not tried demon it appears this was a bad attempt to discredit my arguments without proof while being guility of the thing you accuse me. "I" statements to have their merit in objectivity, too. I feel demon is better because (objective evidence here), which is what I've done.

Zsw - Dreamweaver

I know, I'm not saying you can't be a DPH sin. But DPHing in APS set is just like full r9rr Demon vs Full r9rr Sage.

Sure, you definitely can do it. But it just isn't as effective because you either can't survive as long (in the case of aps) or can't kill as well (because you can't 2 spark combo someone every 15 seconds and repeat that indefinitely without risking your own survival as demon).

Of course, you won't notice this in the short term where your opponents can't survive as long, or you yourself can't survive as long. But what about the end game full +12 josd people? Thats when you notice it more. As you attempt to survive them, you just can't both use chi defensively and offensively at the same time as a Demon. Although perhaps you have yet to experience that since you're still in APS gears.

Gear swapping is definitely viable. Personally I don't do it since I like the survival better in mass pvp. Can just freeze lock the melees and let the arcanes handle it while they can't move. I should consider trolling barbs with it though.

And I did just realize that I quit before Deity stones came out. With deity stones you can probably 1 shot most classes I guess.