Please simply leave...

GlenRoss - Archosaur

Brillance - Raging Tide wrote: »

Can I get some clarity on what you mean by handouts from the government - before I just simply go off on you?

Thanks. b:thanks

If it floats your boat, go off on me any time you like.

I don't want to get deep into politics on a game board. It's just part of the same misconception that money appears out of thin air and lack of acknowledgment of those who earn and provide some level of sustenance for others. The government has no money to give as gifts. It comes from somebody. Neither can PWI simply provide this game without some support from earners/spenders. It's ridiculous to look down upon that providence as a negative.

Eagerly awaiting your wrath.

Brillance - Raging Tide

GlenRoss - Archosaur wrote: »

If it floats your boat, go off on me any time you like.

I don't want to get deep into politics on a game board. It's just part of the same misconception that money appears out of thin air and lack of acknowledgment of those who earn and provide some level of sustenance for others. The government has no money to give as gifts. It comes from somebody. Neither can PWI simply provide this game without some support from earners/spenders. It's ridiculous to look down upon that providence as a negative.

Eagerly awaiting your wrath.

The World is currently involved in the greatest Welfare Project known to mankind, its called The Global Banking Crisis. Im sure the CEOs of those corporations also earn and provide some level of sustenance for others.

In my country, if you kicked everyone off of public assistance tomorrow, you would clean up 1 whole percent of our national debt. But billions in dollars and jobs would be saved if you kicked the corporations off of 'the dole'.

I think people sound amazingly unknowledgeable when they complain about a family or an individual human sucking up all their tax dollars, when in reality they are afforded extremely little. They arent the ones bleeding the world dry. My taxes go up to fill pockets and feed coruption, and I would feel like a complete moron if I ever begrudged someone who is NOT living high on the hog a semblance of self-respect and dignity.

Just because someone cannot afford to pay for pixels, doesnt mean they cannot afford to pay their own way in real life. Sounds like some might not have any appreciation at all for their 'privilege' - maybe they feel 'entitled', huh?

Thanks for the reply, just wanted to make sure I read you right. b:thanks

Asone - Raging Tide wrote: »

The subscription you heard about is not this version of PW it was another version that was P2P and I couldn't say which it is since discussing most other versions is against PWI forum rules.

Thanks, your confirmation is enough. Dont need no bans on my thread, lol.

GlenRoss - Archosaur

Brillance - Raging Tide wrote: »

The World is currently involved in the greatest Welfare Project known to mankind, its called The Global Banking Crisis. Im sure the CEOs of those corporations also earn and provide some level of sustenance for others.

Mythology promoted by those who think letting people keep the money they earn is somehow giving them someone else's money. Please show me how these welfare payments to the banks are being made. Don't include money they are allowed to keep. Show me the amounts of payment.

Brillance - Raging Tide wrote: »

In my country, if you kicked everyone off of public assistance tomorrow, you would clean up 1 whole percent of our national debt. But billions in dollars and jobs would be saved if you kicked the corporations off of 'the dole'.

Doubt it. What country are we talking about. I'd like to look up those numbers.

In the US, domestic government spending is counted in trillions of dollars. That's not a pittance, anywhere.

Brillance - Raging Tide wrote: »

I think people sound amazingly unknowledgeable when they complain about a family or an individual human sucking up all their tax dollars, when in reality they are afforded extremely little.

I stand unimpressed by your air of superiority and insult. And I just destroyed that little canard, just above.

Brillance - Raging Tide wrote: »

They arent the ones bleeding the world dry. My taxes go up to fill pockets and feed coruption, and I would feel like a complete moron if I ever begrudged someone who is NOT living high on the hog a semblance of self-respect and dignity.

Again your ad hominems bore me. I begrudge no one any such thing but I will say that no one owes me anything I didn't earn and I owe no one. My charity is my choice. Anything else is coercion. When individuals do it, we call it robbery, so they employ government to hold the gun for them.

Brillance - Raging Tide wrote: »

Just because someone cannot afford to pay for pixels, doesnt mean they cannot afford to pay their own way in real life.

I welcome and challenge you to show where anyone said otherwise. Strawmen make such poor arguments.

Brillance - Raging Tide wrote: »

Sounds like some might not have any appreciation at all for their 'privilege' - maybe they feel 'entitled', huh?

I wouldn't know. All I'm entitled to is what I earn. And guess what. You're not entitled to what I earn so get over yourself.

To get past all the hysterical rage of your post, I will repeat my original point: The money that the government doles out was earned by someone. That person should not be villified. Class warfare soldiers have a hard time with that concept but it stands as truth and common sense.

When Atlas Shrugs, don't blame him for walking away.

Brillance - Raging Tide wrote: »

Thanks for the reply, just wanted to make sure I read you right. b:thanks

You're quite welcome. Always happy to enlighten.

Brillance - Raging Tide

GlenRoss - Archosaur wrote: »

Mythology promoted by those who think letting people keep the money they earn is somehow giving them someone else's money. Please show me how these welfare payments to the banks are being made. Don't include money they are allowed to keep. Show me the amounts of payment.

Doubt it. What country are we talking about. I'd like to look up those numbers.

Tell it to the people of Greece, Ireland, tell it to the people of the World.

Tell it to IBM, GE and others that US tax payers paid to move those jobs and corporations south of the USA's borders. Tell it to NAFTA & GAFTA, and the 95% of black youth in the US who are unemployed this Summer. Google it if your truely interested - your lame argument betrays you are not.

You like spitting snake oil like a sideshow geek, apparently. Its much easier to just believe the rhetoric and follow the herd.


In the US, domestic government spending is counted in trillions of dollars. That's not a pittance, anywhere.

Yep, and 1 percent of the USs national debt would be cleaned up if EVERYONE was thrown off of Public Assistance. How much you think it costs to give bonuses to CEOs because they FAILED at their corporate position, and taxpayers world wide bail them out. The USA is expected to bail theirs out twice. Idk, but it sounds rather pricy to move entire corporations. Tax payers even paid to have McDonald's invade the Asian market. *wonders how many Asians really like McDonalds food anyway*

First thing those bailed out CEOs think to do with the money? You guessed it! Pay out their own bonuses! Funny, I thought people get bonuses for doing good, if not at least, above average jobs at their position. Who knew one could gab millions of taxpayer 'contributions' by being a complete FAILURE at your assignment?? Whos sucking your tax dollars dry.

Btw, carreers in the Fast Food industry are the most available in the USs current job market. You cant expect someone who future rests in a minimum wage job at MickeyDs to NOT need public assistance, lol.

I stand unimpressed by your air of superiority and insult. And I just destroyed that little canard, just above.

Destroyed something did you? How does one destroy something by sticking their own head even deeper into the sand? I must be an ant or something. b:chuckle

Again your ad hominems bore me. I begrudge no one any such thing but I will say that no one owes me anything I didn't earn and I owe no one. My charity is my choice. Anything else is coercion. When individuals do it, we call it robbery, so they employ government to hold the gun for them.

BS, you wouldnt have said it if you didnt believe it somehow lifted you above others. Not my fault you were sadly mistaken. *shrugs*

I welcome and challenge you to show where anyone said otherwise. Strawmen make such poor arguments.

Yeah, just like buzzwords like 'strawmen' make poor arguements.



I wouldn't know. All I'm entitled to is what I earn. And guess what. You're not entitled to what I earn so get over yourself.

To get past all the hysterical rage of your post, I will repeat my original point: The money that the government doles out was earned by someone. That person should not be villified. Class warfare soldiers have a hard time with that concept but it stands as truth and common sense.

When Atlas Shrugs, don't blame him for walking away.



You're quite welcome. Always happy to enlighten.

If you feel enlightened Im happy I was of assistance to you. Please dont give me any credit for that, cause Im not giving you any credit for doing anything...besides denying reality that everyone plainly sees.

There's more than 1 type of entitlement. People have it by birth too. They live in a coddled world, and they cant see anything beyond their own image in a mirror.

Have a nice day! - and let's get my thread back on topic -

Please simply leave...

Selak - Dreamweaver

I personally think the words simply leave really means leave quietly please.

As to welfare I worked 2/3 of my working life, paid my taxes and everything else, now I am on a disability pension, so whose money am i really spending? the money i earned and paid to the government during my working life. So in some ways its my money.
This is how it works here in Australia at least.

tweakz

Brillance - Raging Tide wrote: »

In my country, if you kicked everyone off of public assistance tomorrow, you would clean up 1 whole percent of our national debt. But billions in dollars and jobs would be saved if you kicked the corporations off of 'the dole'.

I think people sound amazingly unknowledgeable when they complain about a family or an individual human sucking up all their tax dollars, when in reality they are afforded extremely little.

Agreed. Slavery didn't end: it evolved. We are slaves (tax payers) to a racist religious group that uses the fruit of our work to dislocate and commit genocide on indigenous people just like they did in the good old USA.

Eoria - Harshlands

Ayn Rand was a terrible writer with terrible ideas.

Also, I would suggest you learn to have basic empathy for other humans. Most people are not poor because they want to be, but because of things beyond their control (job loss and unemployment/underemployment, health issues whether they be physical or mental, other factors that perpetuate poverty like lack of proper education/healthcare/nutrition, etc.). Do not put these people down. One day, you could be exactly like them: subsisting, but not really living anymore.

...and dear god, don't make me agree with both Brilliance (I'mma need some sources there though) and tweakz. World is ending.

Eden - Raging Tide

this thread needs more obama

BungaSakura - Raging Tide

hm... interesting discussion but kinda weird to compare with political economic. either u are cash shop or not, people who are playing this game is not poor (definition of the poor people for me is that u dont know whether u able to eat or no). why? because u able to have your own computer, u are able to pay internet bill and u have time to get the pleasure by playing this game. if we are on poor category, people wont be able to thinking how to play the game, but how to able to survive day by day. i know this condition because i come from place where many people are not rich. i have experience on economic crisis 16 years ago. all we were thinking at that time is how able to eat, how to able continue go to school. we were not able to thinking what time we are able to play or do we need to CS or not.

regarding how expensive rank 9 is, tbh you dont have to cash shop if you want to get it. i farm like 7 months, and yes i CS for 100 gold. but if i build only 1 char i could get rank 9 recast without CS at all and even better. i have cleric with rank 9 ring, r8r weapon +10 when it cost to get the weapon for 400 mills, i have t3 nirvana weapon for +12 when rapt price was 900k each, i have full t3 nirvana when canny price was 350k each. and now i have full rank 9 recast for veno. i start getting my rep and ring since december 2012 and finish all recast armor and weapon on late june 2013. i think all of that is expensive for non CSer. but its obtainable. and you dont have to play for 2 or 4 years. and i dont even have sin or BM char to farm.

yes gold price is expensive as hell. but with all the contain in the game now, its not too hard to get the coin in game.

CaitlinDan - Heavens Tear

Brillance - Raging Tide wrote: »

Thanks for your post. Ima Mystic, and I remember when almost every forum - except Archers maybe - predicted we would replace their class. You have always been physically stronger than we were. Everyone seems to have gotten over it though, except maybe the clerics. We were never a slap in your face, just a totally unknown and misunderstood class. I admit, if I was standing there on my Veno when it was announced that a new class with 'pets' is coming out, and they dont even have to buy them - just quest along and wala insta-pet!, I would have probably been a bit ticked off over it myself.

Now that we have been nerfed to death, we arent a threat to much. b:chuckle

Im glad you enjoy the game again. Im enjoying it a lot more too. Have a couple of friends now in a nice quiet faction. My char has improved by leaps and bounds recently. Not through gifts or begging or anyone doing a whole lot for me - just a strange side-effect of my current endgame goal of testing the "Farm R9 in a few weeks" theory. At this point we need to change that to 'several weeks', but -

I DO have a whole new outlook on PW, and it happened in a totally weird way. b:chuckle

Thank you for replying. It's nice to know that a post isn't buried someplace.

To respond to your "whole new outlook on PW", I'm glad that that has happened for you. I'm still very certain that PW is doing its very best to improve the game, and I have to admit, such things are not easy to do. Coding, porting code over, takes a lot of work, and unless you have a staff the size of Google, then it's bound to take some time.

About the other arguments, I'm NOT exactly sure what is going on, or how it got to be discussing about national corporations, and the debt situation, but I see the correlation. Okay, I'm not the best with politics and finance, but my understanding is this:

Most businesses would want top dollar, and top profit, as I'm sure is PW's motivation. But I think what everyone is arguing about is that, for the price that they are demanding (of things like R9), certain things should be made balanced, or at least fixed (like bugs).

Currently, my major turn off was what they did to demon barbs. To not derail this thread there's a huge thread in the QC forums about it, and I think it goes to show that some players are really upset and would leave (to get back on topic). But at that point, it's a question of what they've gleaned in this game and whether they'd return.

For me, PW is not just for gaming, I get to learn German from speaking with Native Germans which is superrrrrr awesome. I love German, so yeah. And right now, I'm quite sure that I'm going to be in love with my venomancer, because of the newfound friendships, the updates and a bright hope that PW will become even greater than at its peak.

In a way, I think that's why most companies that are incredibly successful, care about profits, but also make sure they listen and see what they can improve. For example, look at the quality of Search Engine Results Pages NOW, and back in 1998. I'm into web building and SEO so this is one analogy I'll draw.

GlenRoss - Archosaur

Brillance - Raging Tide wrote: »

If you feel enlightened Im happy I was of assistance to you. Please dont give me any credit for that, cause Im not giving you any credit for doing anything...besides denying reality that everyone plainly sees.

There's more than 1 type of entitlement. People have it by birth too. They live in a coddled world, and they cant see anything beyond their own image in a mirror.

Have a nice day! - and let's get my thread back on topic -

Please simply leave...

Yes lets get back to the topic. My point stands as originally written. That money to keep this game going and to allow the governments to hand out comes from someone who earned it. They shouldn't be disdained for being productive.

None of the vitriolic ad hominem changes that. None of class warfare mythology changes that. None of the ideological fantasy claims which were never backed by any numbers changes that. None of the dancing off to other emotional tangents of human suffering changes that. The original statement stands true as written.

The reinvention of the "entitlement" subject to include those whose parents provided for their children is laughable and reeks of jealous envy. Nobody owes you anything.

As for me leaving, I'll let you know when I need your blessing for anything I wish to do or not do. Your "entitlement" to decide anything about my life or behavior is just another ideological fantasy.

Back to the topic. Thanks for playing.

Brillance - Raging Tide

GlenRoss - Archosaur wrote: »

Yes lets get back to the topic. My point stands as originally written. That money to keep this game going and to allow the governments to hand out comes from someone who earned it. They shouldn't be disdained for being productive.

None of the vitriolic ad hominem changes that. None of class warfare mythology changes that. None of the ideological fantasy claims which were never backed by any numbers changes that. None of the dancing off to other emotional tangents of human suffering changes that. The original statement stands true as written.

The reinvention of the "entitlement" subject to include those whose parents provided for their children is laughable and reeks of jealous envy. Nobody owes you anything.

As for me leaving, I'll let you know when I need your blessing for anything I wish to do or not do. Your "entitlement" to decide anything about my life or behavior is just another ideological fantasy.

Back to the topic. Thanks for playing.

Nobody owes anybody anything. Neither of the two alleged 'entitled' classes, we are speaking in separate yet tagged together discussions about,are truely entitled to anything other than what they create for themselves - and neither have the opportunity to create anything for themselves that the masses don't allow them to.

No one cares about the poor? Well, it may be a secret kept from some, but no one really cares about the wealthy, or anyone somewhere in between, either, lol. Such is our society today.

People, rich or poor, do for those not of their personal family or clique - or in some cases not even those close relationships truly mean anything - out of the goodness of their hearts, as a way of recognizing and supporting the people who made the government, to take their money and hand it out - to individuals, and for some reason corporations - many of which even refuseing to open their books to recieve their substancial handouts. Or, their lives and hand it out - as it is the case that anyone's military requires recruits to do that - pledge their lives. Many of those military families live off government handouts too. A life is worth so little in our modern times, be it a rich one or a poor one, it would seem.

From the annuls of history we find that those privileged by birth got that way through mugging and stealing what others have. Look at any "Empire", including 'corporate' empires - their greatness is derived from their ability to overwhelm you and take what you got. Seems only reasonable anyone looking up to those families and their history would naturally try to figure out a way to do the same - and see if one day or night they cant overwhelm me or you, and see if they can take what we got, am I right? Monkey see - monkey do? Sounds only reasonable to me. Every historicly wealthy family or business dynasty leads back along of road of pillaging and looting, and many times enslavement of captives, regardless of the captives race or religion. *shrugs*

You started on my thread with your pompous remark, which I replied to, and asked you to reply to me, which you did. Thank you. b:thanks

At this point, with no one being "one up" on the other, I ask that my thread truly get back on topic. You had the first word, so it is only fair and polite that I have the last.

Im sure we can both agree to continue to disagree in the "World Politics" forum if they ever create one - not that I suggest they do, lol. That place would probably become "Ban City" if such was to happen, and besides, 'politically-charged feelings in either direction' have no true place on a game forum.

Thank you for your good wishes toward my continued game play, as well. I would have to say that it is obvious that the money raked in through the Cash Shop has not been reinvested much in this game. It has been invested in new prospects for the company to offer for the most part, and there is nothing wrong with that, as long as you keep the main machine that got you this far going. Recycling old content and not fixing bugs makes it seem like they cant be asked to do the very least they could - for at least, the CashShoppers who made their fiscal growth possible in the first place.

I helped with what I could, but at this point I can thank the CashShoppers for making the game available and possible for me to continue to play. Thanks again! b:thanks

There are fundamental fixes that need attention but no one cares, like an R8 Mystics level 11 Absorb Soul being nerfed when fighting a better geared player. R8 or lesser gears is not gear known for having Attack and Defence levels - but yet it is expected to compete in PvP as if it did. Maybe the determination has been, "Meh, it doesnt matter cause chances are you are gonna lose anyway." But, I still paid good money for that skill long before the mechanics were suddenly changed on me. Doesnt seem right that its MY responsibility to fix it, by settling for gears that dont add up to be as good overall - or making a large cash purchase for pixels given my economic status.

There are so many things that DO make people consider simply leaving, without the negative attitudes, and I think people can find ways to express their points without berating others for their real life needs coming first - and game play second.

Why should anyone with the cash to keep the Cash Shop in business care? Well, if they love their game and their faction, and love TW and PK, and want to maintain their ingame dynasties, they need 'cannon fodder'.

P.S. The please simply leave is not a request for you to personally leave the game, or even my thread - Im simply restating the title of the thread to get back on topic. Sorry, if it seemed for some reason I was asking you to stop playing. At this point, I would prefer NOT to see anyone simply leave.

Brillance - Raging Tide

CaitlinDan - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Thank you for replying. It's nice to know that a post isn't buried someplace.

To respond to your "whole new outlook on PW", I'm glad that that has happened for you. I'm still very certain that PW is doing its very best to improve the game, and I have to admit, such things are not easy to do. Coding, porting code over, takes a lot of work, and unless you have a staff the size of Google, then it's bound to take some time.

About the other arguments, I'm NOT exactly sure what is going on, or how it got to be discussing about national corporations, and the debt situation, but I see the correlation. Okay, I'm not the best with politics and finance, but my understanding is this:

Most businesses would want top dollar, and top profit, as I'm sure is PW's motivation. But I think what everyone is arguing about is that, for the price that they are demanding (of things like R9), certain things should be made balanced, or at least fixed (like bugs).

Currently, my major turn off was what they did to demon barbs. To not derail this thread there's a huge thread in the QC forums about it, and I think it goes to show that some players are really upset and would leave (to get back on topic). But at that point, it's a question of what they've gleaned in this game and whether they'd return.

For me, PW is not just for gaming, I get to learn German from speaking with Native Germans which is superrrrrr awesome. I love German, so yeah. And right now, I'm quite sure that I'm going to be in love with my venomancer, because of the newfound friendships, the updates and a bright hope that PW will become even greater than at its peak.

In a way, I think that's why most companies that are incredibly successful, care about profits, but also make sure they listen and see what they can improve. For example, look at the quality of Search Engine Results Pages NOW, and back in 1998. I'm into web building and SEO so this is one analogy I'll draw.

Thank you for your good wishes as well. I like International games too, they give you a better outlook on cultures other than your own, than what your local media will usually. You get to learn the differences in many things, including what governments offer their citizens in comparison to your own. This includes Education systems, healthcare systems, and a bunch of other stuff you probably wouldn't otherwise know about. Its interesting and compelling within itself.

The last paragraph of my reply to Glen Ross applies to your comments about the company. They have a natural right to prosper, just as the PWI-players have a natural right to expect something in return for their 'out-of-the-norm' substantial investments into the company, besides their uber pixel gear, like bug fixes if they are doable. Thanks for the upbeat post. Play on. b:thanks

GlenRoss - Archosaur

Fair enough.

We will agree to disagree about many things but get back to enjoying the game.

btw I would never say that no one cares about the poor. I don't want to puff my chest up about it but I am very much into charity (in-game and out), hence will never be counted among the "rich" or "upper crust". I simply prefer that people be allowed the freedom to choose what happens to the money they earn and how they wish to live (insofar as it does not intrude on another's rights). When I give, I know that it is going to whom I choose. I'm absolutely positive that some of my charity goes to purposes of which I wouldn't approve, but I choose to take chances, lest I deny someone who really needs the help. Otoh, when the state takes my money and hands it out, I have no confidence that more than a small fraction actually reaches those who need it. And I'm 100% certain that portions are being siphoned off to fund activities of which I do not approve and are not charitable in nature.

I don't say all that to rekindle the argument. In the peace of armistice, I just thought I'd share with you that I'm not sitting on moneybags telling the starving to "eat cake". :-)

Take care. Have fun. Leave the jerks to be jerks. It's not worth the effort to try to change us .... er .... I mean THEM.