Suggested Stealth Changes

Unholly - Morai

Same level assassins have always been a bit silly, the quickest stale-mate in the game if they stealth. And now we have lots of people using stealth detection pots/skills that can knock sins out of stealth. Not that Im saying that this was a bad thing, stealth was way to strong in my opinion but now its effectiveness has been decreased by quite a bit. Anyway I have seen a lot of other people discussing assassin stealth on other threads and so I thought I would create this one so that there is one thread where people could suggest potential changes to this.

So I have two suggestions for changes to sins stealth:
1. Increase awareness levels
2. Change Share the stealth, stealth strength

1: Increase awareness levels
It has always irked me that assassins are the only class who cannot see other assassins in stealth at higher levels. Especially seeing as at lower levels we are the class who can most easily counter other assassins stealth. So i propose that we get an increase to our awareness to put us on par with other classs ability to see other sins.

Option 1: Want to buy [○Sharp Observer][●Sharp Observer] pm me offers
They could increase awareness level on Sharp Observer by 1 or give sins level 11 books for this skill. This would allow sins to always be able to see other assassins of the same level stopping silly stealth standoffs.
Pros:
1. No silly stealth standoffs between sins of the same level
2. Ability to see archers in stealth, counteracting their ability to see sins and still stay out of sight of the assassin.
3. Ability for sins to better protect their squad mates from other sins in mass PK.
Cons:
1. May mess up Archers stealth as assassins will always be able to see them where as they can only see sins for 30 second periods. This could easily be countered by increasing their stealth by 1 also.
2. This would over all lower the effectiveness for assassins stealth once again.

I personally prefer this option as i feel that assassins should always be able to see other assassins.

Option 2: Allow sins to use stealth detection pots also.
Pros:
1. Sins would not know if an assassin was near them in stealth 100% of the time like Option 1 would allow.
2. This would not affect archer stealth as much. But would still allow for sins to be able to see archers in stealth.
Cons:
1. An assassin may be able to get the jump on another assassin without them knowing they are there.
2. Assuming GMs stealth level is 150 due to their level this may mean assassins would be able to see GMs. (Shouldnt be too hard to increase GMs stealth level)

Unholly - Morai

2: Change Share the stealth, stealth strength
This is mainly an idea that i would be suggesting if my suggestion for increased awareness levels was implemented. The idea behind it would be to allow an assassin to have a 100% invisibly skill which no class could see though for the duration of this skill.

What they could do is increase the stealth levels provided by this skill by 2 meaning that when activated, no character sin or toon using stealth pot would be able to see the sin for the 5 seconds that this skill is active for. It would allow a sin to jump in to stealth and be safe for these 5 seconds giving them time to let their charm tick or move away from who they were fighting or whatever, without having the unlimited invisibility that they originally had.

This skill costs an assassin chi to use so they would have to think about when they are going to use this skill. Yes sins swim in chi but i feel it is preferable that a skill which makes them invisible should take chi not give them chi. Also 1 spark is still not cheap even to an assassin.

This change would not nullify stealth detection pots as it would only be a 5 second stealth and so players who used them on an assassin would still be able to see them for 25 seconds. Also that stealth would be dependent on the sin being out of stealth when they use it, so they couldnt just spam this skill as soon as they see someone use a stealth pot.

I would be interested to hear other peoples opinion on this idea and theirs if they think they have better ones!

tsyfall

Prepare for replies in quotes. My own signature style in white.

Unholly - Morai wrote: »

Same level assassins have always been a bit silly, the quickest stale-mate in the game if they stealth. And now we have lots of people using stealth detection pots/skills that can knock sins out of stealth.

Stealth at endgame mass PvP is actually not meant for you to become stealthed, but simply to lose the red bullseye that others have on you. In mass PvP, upon seeing a sin stealth, most people will simply go after a higher priority target. As for stealth in 1v1: See below.

Not that Im saying that this was a bad thing, stealth was way to strong in my opinion

Agreed

but now its effectiveness has been decreased by quite a bit.

Self contradiction?

Anyway I have seen a lot of other people discussing assassin stealth on other threads and so I thought I would create this one so that there is one thread where people could suggest potential changes to this.

So I have two suggestions for changes to sins stealth:
1. Increase awareness levels
2. Change Share the stealth, stealth strength

1: Increase awareness levels
It has always irked me that assassins are the only class who cannot see other assassins in stealth at higher levels. Especially seeing as at lower levels we are the class who can most easily counter other assassins stealth. So i propose that we get an increase to our awareness to put us on par with other classs ability to see other sins.

Option 1: Want to buy [○Sharp Observer][●Sharp Observer] pm me offers

Knowing PWE, these skills would only be available through packs or extreme merchanting. I like your suggestion: To put even more distance between those with VISAs and those without, which is a primary reason that PvP has declined in recent months.

They could increase awareness level on Sharp Observer by 1 or give sins level 11 books for this skill. This would allow sins to always be able to see other assassins of the same level stopping silly stealth standoffs.
Pros:
1. No silly stealth standoffs between sins of the same level

I honestly don't see a problem with the 1v1 assassin stealth stalemates. There are three outcomes:

a. One assassin gets knocked out of stealth forcibly.
b. One assassin leaves stealth voluntarily.
c. Both assassins wallow in the stalemate.

The first and second options both end the stalemate. The third option basically says: Both sins are either too coward/troll/fail to leave stealth, in which case they're equally skilled, right? After all, neither of them has the skill to forgo stealth for even a few seconds. In my opinion, equally skilled people have a good chance of landing a stalemate, even if their skill level is questionable. I believe that this is a logical conclusion.

2. Ability to see archers in stealth, counteracting their ability to see sins and still stay out of sight of the assassin.

Archer stealth is terribad. Your only option of movement are two leaps, and even single spark/blazing arrow will knock you out immediately. I see no reason why this is necessary.

3. Ability for sins to better protect their squad mates from other sins in mass PK.

That's called "I put more time into the game to level, so I have an advantage over lazy people". I'm glad to see you want to make those people with many FC's under their belt worthless.

More time = more advantage. Less time in game = less advantage. Is there really a problem with this? This is, of course, addressing the fact that higher sins can hide from lower sins.

As for equal sin vs equal sin: It's easy to protect your squadmates from fellow sins. You just sit in stealth right next to them and get ready to stun the fgt the moment they pop on your bait.

Cons:
1. May mess up Archers stealth as assassins will always be able to see them where as they can only see sins for 30 second periods. This could easily be countered by increasing their stealth by 1 also.

Their stealth is already level 31. Increasing to 32 would mean that all 105 archers would be PERMANENTLY invisible, short of a mystic's detection skill.

2. This would over all lower the effectiveness for assassins stealth once again.

Who cares.
Sins already have tidal protection, deaden nerves, the only array of permanent CC in the game that can bypass antistun, 2 speed skills, 1 movement debuff immunity, teleports, telestuns, and unlimited chi for triple sparking. Why do you think all competent sins do 1v1's without stealth?

I personally prefer this option as i feel that assassins should always be able to see other assassins.

Option 2: Allow sins to use stealth detection pots also.
Pros:
1. Sins would not know if an assassin was near them in stealth 100% of the time like Option 1 would allow.
2. This would not affect archer stealth as much. But would still allow for sins to be able to see archers in stealth.

Hmm. I half agree with this point. Assassins should be able to get a stealth-sight skill, but due to the fact they already have stealth themselves, I believe it should be limited. Possibly in the way that seekers only have ~10 seconds with their self buff skill. This however presents developmental problems in creating a new, third type of pot. Maybe: Forges to exchange normal stealth pots to sin stealth pots, or adding a new skill for the assassin.

Cons:
1. An assassin may be able to get the jump on another assassin without them knowing they are there.

If you can't survive a sin from stealth attacking you, then either:

a. They have better gear, and you should die because they invested either more time or money into the game, or
b. You just plain suck and can't defend yourself in PvP.

2. Assuming GMs stealth level is 150 due to their level this may mean assassins would be able to see GMs. (Shouldnt be too hard to increase GMs stealth level)

Due to much experimentation, I know the following.
GM stealth does not function like our stealth buff. There IS no buff. Even while you are squadded with a GM, they are still invisble, despite you being able to see their dot on the minimap right next to you. Also: GM stealth provides immunity to damage and being popped from stealth.

Unholly - Morai wrote: »

2: Change Share the stealth, stealth strength
This is mainly an idea that i would be suggesting if my suggestion for increased awareness levels was implemented. The idea behind it would be to allow an assassin to have a 100% invisibly skill which no class could see though for the duration of this skill.

What they could do is increase the stealth levels provided by this skill by 2 meaning that when activated, no character sin or toon using stealth pot would be able to see the sin for the 5 seconds that this skill is active for. It would allow a sin to jump in to stealth and be safe for these 5 seconds giving them time to let their charm tick or move away from who they were fighting or whatever, without having the unlimited invisibility that they originally had.

Yep, squad stealth +2 levels. That basically makes stealth even more OP than it already is, as it will now apply to all classes.

This skill costs an assassin chi to use so they would have to think about when they are going to use this skill. Yes sins swim in chi but i feel it is preferable that a skill which makes them invisible should take chi not give them chi. Also 1 spark is still not cheap even to an assassin.

This change would not nullify stealth detection pots as it would only be a 5 second stealth and so players who used them on an assassin would still be able to see them for 25 seconds. Also that stealth would be dependent on the sin being out of stealth when they use it, so they couldnt just spam this skill as soon as they see someone use a stealth pot.

You don't even need to use stealth pot to see someone who squad stealthed. You just open T screen and prepare holy path to chase the soon-to-be-visible target. And using this skill is easy while in stealth. It's called Knifethrow>squadstealth. Changing squadstealth would really have no impact on the relationship between sins and detection pots, other than the fact that you could squad 10 people from people even w/ pots, regardless if they were a sin, a barb, or a baboon.

I would be interested to hear other peoples opinion on this idea and theirs if they think they have better ones!

Still going to reference my original idea. I disagree about everything you have to say except for the fact that sins should be able to see other sins either through a potion or a self skill (don't take my opinion personally. It's not meant to offend you.) ~8 seconds of being able to see other sins your level or below seems fine, especially if it has a long cooldown.

Mrvate - Heavens Tear

I do agree with you on the idea that stealth used to be too strong, and now with the abundance of detection pots its too weak. But personally if I could re balance it, I'd get rid of catlike tread, and lower archer stealth level. and then put all the detection pots onto the same cool down as apoth.

This would effectively mean that if you used a detection pot you're pretty well guaranteed to see stealthed sins, getting rid of that stupid.... he's 1 lvl higher then me bs. But at the same time it does come with a cost of apoth being on CD.

skaitavia

Mrvate - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I do agree with you on the idea that stealth used to be too strong, and now with the abundance of detection pots its too weak. But personally if I could re balance it, I'd get rid of catlike tread, and lower archer stealth level. and then put all the detection pots onto the same cool down as apoth.

This would effectively mean that if you used a detection pot you're pretty well guaranteed to see stealthed sins, getting rid of that stupid.... he's 1 lvl higher then me bs. But at the same time it does come with a cost of apoth being on CD.

The stealth detection pot that increases your awareness level by 31 does not share the same cooldown as the other apoth, so it can be spammed as a player pleases.

I agree with sins being able to use detection pots as well. And instead of throwing 31 on top of their level, increase it by 1, or temporarily overwrite the original 30 from Sharp Observer to 31 of the pot for 30 seconds.

That, or have a shadow sight skill like someone suggested that has a 1 minute cooldown and a 5-10 second duration.