Awareness and Stealth level

Deadalus - Harshlands

Hey,

So i just wanted to bring this up on the Assassin Forum to have a discussion about its fair or not.

So common sense is, that Assassins cant see eachother, when they are on the same Level, means you can Hide from them.
To see them again, you need to be one level above them. Level 105 Sins can Stealth from everyone and noone can see them.

But wait, thats not true at all, everyone can see you, when they have that stealth pot
http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/32756

This one pretty much screws everyone over.
Another common sense is, that when you burn a pot to detect a sin, you cant activate other pots to safe yourself when in danger.

Wrong, this pot doesnt share a cooldown with all the other pots, only the pot which grants 30 awareness level shares a cooldown with the other pots.
Means he/she can see you and is able to kick in some other fancy pots to kill you.


My opinion is, that this completly screws the option to hide when you cant defeat the enemy.
Also this wouldnt bug me too much, when they would share the cooldown with the other pots, its either have an advantage or safe yourself in danger, not both.
Skills on the other hand are a different story, i wont argue about if stealth is fair or not because every class has skills which safes your a/ss.

How do YOU see this problem? Discuss b:victory

skaitavia

As with any other anti-sin feature that came into this game, you have to learn to adapt to it. In this example, I adapt to it by always expecting my opponent to use a stealth-detection pot. When I stealth in a situation where I know I will die if I continue to be exposed, then my immediate reaction would be to get out of there via a holy path or Maze Steps, because I know stealthing doesn't mean I'm always safe.

I've always never been dependent on stealth, which lead to me adapting to it by having the mindset of "I'm never safe in stealth".


There's also the thing about being lower leveled, as level 103 and below sins are quite common nowadays. So the possibility of a higher level sin popping on you was high, which also led to building my mindset. Now that I'm 104, that has lessened a bit, though not by that much.

Deadalus - Harshlands

Thats true.

I never felt safe, when i run around in stealth (mainly in NW) with myself being lv 103.
But i only expect Sins to kick me out of stealth or some mistakes by myself by running into aoes.
Seekers using his skill to detect sins are rare on HL in NW, never had that to be honest.

But i dont expect for example clerics, wizzards or venos to kick me out of stealth by using a pot. using the +31 pot which isnt even the same CD as the other pots is even worse.

I dont have something against thepots ****, but make it share the same CD atleast.


When i fight against a Cleric (weird that i mostly have clerics who use the pot against me) and i know who it is and i know that we are the same level, i expect that force stealth brings me out of this and keeps me invisible.

but maybe its just me....

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

They used to have it so you had to use a real apoth pot but that never worked well since it would put apoth on cooldown and you couldn't even see same level sins. A sin doesn't really devote any resources into stealthing so it shouldn't take too much to counter stealth.

The amount of freedom stealth has in PWI is already far more than you see in other games. Most of the time you see some time limit on stealth and it reduces your movement speed. Usually a player can see a stealthed character if the stealthed character gets too close or if the stealthed player wanders into a well-lit area.

The version of stealth in PWI is more like full on invisibility since it has no limitations. This is why there were so many complaints about it.

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

They used to have it so you had to use a real apoth pot but that never worked well since it would put apoth on cooldown and you couldn't even see same level sins. A sin doesn't really devote any resources into stealthing so it shouldn't take too much to counter stealth.

The amount of freedom stealth has in PWI is already far more than you see in other games. Most of the time you see some time limit on stealth and it reduces your movement speed. Usually a player can see a stealthed character if the stealthed character gets too close or if the stealthed player wanders into a well-lit area.

The version of stealth in PWI is more like full on invisibility since it has no limitations. This is why there were so many complaints about it.

and lets not forget that it *gives* a full spark. was anyone thinking that that wasn't a typo when we first read the skill descriptions? XD

Deadalus - Harshlands

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

They used to have it so you had to use a real apoth pot but that never worked well since it would put apoth on cooldown and you couldn't even see same level sins. A sin doesn't really devote any resources into stealthing so it shouldn't take too much to counter stealth.

When a Sin cant see a Sin on the same Level, why should any other class see him? Actually makes no sense, when the Sin here would be the Stealth pro in the game and should be supposed to do that.
Oh and btw, why should a Archer see a sin, but the sin cant see the archer, when stealthed? No sense again lol


The amount of freedom stealth has in PWI is already far more than you see in other games. Most of the time you see some time limit on stealth and it reduces your movement speed. Usually a player can see a stealthed character if the stealthed character gets too close or if the stealthed player wanders into a well-lit area.

Thats true but you have -kind- of limitations, because it drains MP. Sure most sins dont have a problem with that, when they have cleric buffs the actually lose no MP at all but its something.

The version of stealth in PWI is more like full on invisibility since it has no limitations. This is why there were so many complaints about it.

There are too many complains about a sin actually, they deal too much damage, invisible, too high critrate, 5 aps, best DPS, bla bla bla. You can counter everything nowadays

Answer in red

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Deadalus - Harshlands wrote: »

When a Sin cant see a Sin on the same Level, why should any other class see him? Actually makes no sense, when the Sin here would be the Stealth pro in the game and should be supposed to do that.
Oh and btw, why should a Archer see a sin, but the sin cant see the archer, when stealthed? No sense again lol

It never made any sense to expect the stealth class to have the best detection. Those are completely different things. Archers in most games have the best detection since they need to have keen eyesight. Also the stationary stealth on archer is another cliche move borrowed from other games.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands

Deadalus, you forgot mystic, they can pop you out stealth if they are the same lvl with a skill.

You are 103 so any mystic 103+ can pop out out stealth.

I'm probably sure I did it to you in NW.

Often when I use that skill there's 3-4 sins that pop. =P

Mystic 105 can pop everything out stealth with a skill. (and it work with the lvl of the players and not the lvl of stealth)

You are lucky that on HL the population of mystics is low.

Deadalus - Harshlands

As stated, it doesnt bug me, when someone kicks me out of stealth with a skill or a pot, what cost the user the cooldown from other protective abilitys (Other Pots) but having both, the ability to see sins on the same level and dont sacrifice anything is what bothers me the most.

everything is a copy from other games nowadays, rarely you see something really new, so thats no excuse, that archers can see you using a pot, when everyone else can when using that. The thing is, that (when you go as PWI stated it) the earthguard should see sins at best, because of the third eye.
But that would be another skill and thats perfectly fine.

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver

Deadalus - Harshlands wrote: »

but having both, the ability to see sins on the same level and dont sacrifice anything is what bothers me the most.

well the cost is that they can't use the pot later (and the price of the pot xD)

tsyfall

I feel that a Detection Potion's separate cooldown is justified. I've never really had a problem with it in PvP.

I treat stealth as an auxiliary skill. I never use it in 1v1, and I only stay in stealth for ~20 seconds at most in mass PvP (Tidal CD if I have no apoth available). However, I know that this is not true for most assassins. Many will spam stealth on cooldown, and will probably lie in wait for many minutes.

Stealth has a separate cooldown from apothecary. So, therefore, it should be the same case with stealth detection. Both parties have equal counters; detection for stealth, and apoth vs apoth. If an assassin is forced into stealth via combat, then most likely, they were about to die. I believe Deaden Nerves is enough of a 2nd life for a sin; we're fish, not cats with nine lives. Detection Pot provides an ample way to finish the job on a sin who deserves to die.

Zsw - Dreamweaver

It doesn't bother me that other people can see me in stealth at no extra cost.
What does bother me however, is that early game, sins are the only class that can see other sins in stealth. End game, sins are the only class that can not see other sin in stealth.

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

It doesn't bother me that other people can see me in stealth at no extra cost.
What does bother me however, is that early game, sins are the only class that can see other sins in stealth. End game, sins are the only class that can not see other sin in stealth.

our eyes lose their light scrabbles.

but yeah, I dont see why sins shouldnt be able to use those pots, even to get 1 awareness level

Assassin_AFG - Lost City

PotatoHeadQR - Dreamweaver wrote: »

our eyes lose their light scrabbles.

but yeah, I dont see why sins shouldnt be able to use those pots, even to get 1 awareness level

I agree with this statement, archers b stayin in stealth 4 dayzz waitin on that 2 spark BV aps bs. Either a genie skill, a pot or a lvl 11 detection book that increases awareness by 1 lvl would not hurt imho b:surrender

EDIT: To be fair we did get **** for morai skills... like wth am I gonna do with ss of ur inventory or ur useless dq when im r9rr +12 -_-

Decus - Dreamweaver

Assassin_AFG - Lost City wrote: »

I agree with this statement, archers b stayin in stealth 4 dayzz waitin on that 2 spark BV aps bs. Either a genie skill, a pot or a lvl 11 detection book that increases awareness by 1 lvl would not hurt imho b:surrender

EDIT: To be fair we did get **** for morai skills... like wth am I gonna do with ss of ur inventory or ur useless dq when im r9rr +12 -_-

You do realize archers cannot spark in stealth like sins can, right? Even a single spark burst will cancel it.

datani

Let's face it: Sins might have a very high damage, high APS etc. but they also have to wear light armor. So it's magical and physical defense are low. At least compared to the classes with specialised equipment like Wizards (high magical defense) or Barb (high physical defense).
Okay, the archer does so too, but archer isn't a melee class. Unlike the Sin ...
Means: The archer got it's range as an advantage over the Sin.

That is actually the reason why Sin are able to deal quite a lot damage. To make up for their lack of defense AND it's range.
In my opinion stealth is neccessary to achieve that. It would be fine (for PvP) if it stealth would be limited to a specific duration.
And maybe the stealth level doesn't have to be THAT high. So let's say a Level 100 can see a level 80 Sin. Fine by me. But to give all players but Sins the possibility to detect realy every Sin around is like taking away their last real advantage.

Would the pot +31 share it's cooldown with the +30 pot or the "live saving" ones, it wouldn't be that unfair since they have to choose: Either check if a Sin is around (and prepare for battle if that's the case) OR to use those other pots in beforehand. Not both.

And just to have it mentioned: The reasoning for the two pots having seperate cooldowns based on the seperate cooldowns of the the stealth skills ...
The Sin is a class with low defense and even low HP. So to make up for this disadvantages they have to target their prey as silent as possible. And be honest: A Sin won't deal as much damage to let's say a BM as the BM does to the Sin. The second Skill (Shadow Escape) is meant to safe the Sin.
But thanks to the +31 Pot, even this becomes impossible.

Again: It's fine that those Pots exist. As long as there is a countermeasarement. But I can't seem to find any. Maybe the Sin should be able to use this pot too? Or maybe the Sin needs a pot for it's own. Just increasing stealth detection by 1. Or maybe the +31 Pot should share it's cooldown with the +31 and/or other important pots. Sins can't use Tidal Protection and Focused Mind at the same time. 'cuz it could spare the Sin with physical and magical attacks (well, more or less). So why shouln't other classes have to a handycap too by using the pot?

Regards

tsyfall

I have some points I'll disagree with....

datani wrote: »

Let's face it: Sins might have a very high damage, high APS etc.

High damage at endgame, yes, but certainly not APS. Any APS sin will get 3shot by a full S3 character. Furthermore APS will basically turn a fish into fried fish for any caster.

but they also have to wear light armor. So it's magical and physical defense are low.

Sins are actually really tanky if a well played sin is utilizing locks/self buffs/spark resist/genie.

At least compared to the classes with specialised equipment like Wizards (high magical defense) or Barb (high physical defense).

True, but we have our own forms of passive defenses.

Okay, the archer does so too, but archer isn't a melee class. Unlike the Sin ...
Means: The archer got it's range as an advantage over the Sin.

An archer is stupidly more easier to kill than a sin. Tidal is OP, as is deaden nerves and a defensive stunlock.

That is actually the reason why Sin are able to deal quite a lot damage. To make up for their lack of defense AND it's range.

In my opinion stealth is neccessary to achieve that.

Stealth, in reality, shouldn't exist. I don't often find a need for it and I feel that it was added merely as part of the cliche "assassin" archetype in MMPORGs. Sins have many passive buffs as well as a playstyle that limits how much damage an opponent can dish out.

It would be fine (for PvP) if it stealth would be limited to a specific duration.
And maybe the stealth level doesn't have to be THAT high. So let's say a Level 100 can see a level 80 Sin. Fine by me. But to give all players but Sins the possibility to detect realy every Sin around is like taking away their last real advantage.

Not really. As I stated earlier: Sins have stealth, and other classes do not have it (excepting archers); therefore they have effective counters. Archer stealth is less usable, which is why they have both stealthpot and stealth itself.

Would the pot +31 share it's cooldown with the +30 pot or the "live saving" ones, it wouldn't be that unfair since they have to choose: Either check if a Sin is around (and prepare for battle if that's the case) OR to use those other pots in beforehand. Not both.

Part of being skilled in PvP is predicting your opponent's actions in stealth. For example, with some archers that go into stealth, I can wait and accurately double spark to block stunning arrow - all the while without seeing them. A skilled player can also pick up on signs that an assassin is in stealth, such as people buffing themselves for no reason and suddenly going pink named, or people tipping them off, or the fact that the assassin they just attacked force stealthed.

And just to have it mentioned: The reasoning for the two pots having seperate cooldowns based on the seperate cooldowns of the the stealth skills ...
The Sin is a class with low defense and even low HP. So to make up for this disadvantages they have to target their prey as silent as possible. And be honest: A Sin won't deal as much damage to let's say a BM as the BM does to the Sin. The second Skill (Shadow Escape) is meant to safe the Sin.
But thanks to the +31 Pot, even this becomes impossible.

All other classes manage without stealth. The archer manages with light armour. Sure, an archer has antistuns, but so does a sin (Tidal). Last time I checked, Archers also have no Deaden Nerves or significant stunlock abilities.

Again: It's fine that those Pots exist. As long as there is a countermeasarement. But I can't seem to find any. Maybe the Sin should be able to use this pot too? Or maybe the Sin needs a pot for it's own. Just increasing stealth detection by 1. Or maybe the +31 Pot should share it's cooldown with the +31 and/or other important pots. Sins can't use Tidal Protection and Focused Mind at the same time. 'cuz it could spare the Sin with physical and magical attacks (well, more or less). So why shouln't other classes have to a handycap too by using the pot?

Other classes do have a handicap. Once they use it, they can't use it later. Assassins have stealth; I see no reason why they should also possess a counter. Either you get stealth or you get its detection pot.

Regards

In my opinion the PvP community overplays stealth. Starting from a certain level in my PvP, I never stealthed in 1v1 and almost never in group PvP. Why? An assassin without stealth is a target... however, this means people will be expending their resources on trying to kill you. Stealthing is just giving your target an opponent to let their skills/genie/apoth CD.
For example, if I begin a 1v1 in stealth with say, an archer:

They're going to begin running around and jumping and flying and making themselves extraordinarily hard to catch. With my luck I'll catch them while I'm flying and they're not. Let's say I begin to stunlock. I'm wasting chi, my own buff time, and my other resources to attack them in the air, while the entire time they don't use a single thing because half damage air reduction.

Deadalus - Harshlands

Sins are actually really tanky if a well played sin is utilizing locks/self buffs/spark resist/genie.

So is a caster or any other class really. Maybe the sin has deaden nerves but other classes have something to protect them too.

An archer is stupidly more easier to kill than a sin. Tidal is OP, as is deaden nerves and a defensive stunlock.

So i agree, that Tidal is very powerful, but taking away Tidal, Deaden and those defensive stunlocks, what does the assassin has left? Knife Throw to interrupt the targets channeling?

Not really. As I stated earlier: Sins have stealth, and other classes do not have it (excepting archers); therefore they have effective counters. Archer stealth is less usable, which is why they have both stealthpot and stealth itself.

That is the point in beeing assassin, no? Beeing stealthy and ****? I mean the assassin is meant to be stealthy, to attack from behind out of the blue.

All other classes manage without stealth. The archer manages with light armour. Sure, an archer has antistuns, but so does a sin (Tidal). Last time I checked, Archers also have no Deaden Nerves or significant stunlock abilities.

And last time i checked, archers have range as an advantage. Also they have this lv79 skill, which makes them almost unhitable for sins (2 in 5 attacks miss) or any other class.
Stunlock abilities, maybe not but they can jump around, that should be enough to get time to hit the assassin hard.

Other classes do have a handicap. Once they use it, they can't use it later. Assassins have stealth; I see no reason why they should also possess a counter. Either you get stealth or you get its detection pot.

This... is a joke, right? using the detection pot andyou cant use it later? sure the 1:30min cooldown makes it up and sure go ahead, use those other pots while you are at it. lol you cant be serious with this one.

Either you get stealth or you get its detection pot. Yes, tell this to an archer. I think they smile at you.




If stealth is OP or not, if needet or not, if unfair or not is nothing to discuss here about or if someone can play without it or cant play without it.
Its all a matter of the playstyle.
Its totaly fine with me, if you can play your assassin without stealthing one second of the fight or in the TW you are in right now, but the fact, that classes who has nothing to do with the stealth ability can detect you and protect themselfes is just stupid. either this or that.

Either going offence or going defense but not both. What would other people say, when there would be a pot, that increases stealth level by 2? Ontop of this, you can just use it and it doesnt cooldown the other pots. would that be fair? No of course not.

Im for a Lv11 Cat-Like Thread, which increases the effect by one -_-

tsyfall

Deadalus - Harshlands wrote: »

So is a caster or any other class really. Maybe the sin has deaden nerves but other classes have something to protect them too.

Yep, Tidal. Most people won't die unless they get crit a lot or if they're CC'd. Tidal takes care of most of that.

So i agree, that Tidal is very powerful, but taking away Tidal, Deaden and those defensive stunlocks, what does the assassin has left? Knife Throw to interrupt the targets channeling?

I'm a sin, not a dullard. Are you? Notice I was just commenting on how sins don't need stealth precisely BECAUSE of their other skills.

That is the point in beeing assassin, no? Beeing stealthy and ****? I mean the assassin is meant to be stealthy, to attack from behind out of the blue.

Was saying that while assassin's are stealthy, they really don't need it.

And last time i checked, archers have range as an advantage. Also they have this lv79 skill, which makes them almost unhitable for sins (2 in 5 attacks miss) or any other class.
Stunlock abilities, maybe not but they can jump around, that should be enough to get time to hit the assassin hard.

Hmm. I'm talking +12 JosD S3... an archer needs a bit more than 3 seconds, which is probably the most amount of time they'll get from a leap. Condor sucks and can be circumvented w/ telestun or Whirlwind, both of which do not rely on physical damage. Archer's don't really have a range advantage on sin, considering a. If an archer is running away, they can't hit a sin and b. sins have 2 speed skills, holy path and whirlwind, and 2 teleports.


This... is a joke, right? using the detection pot andyou cant use it later? sure the 1:30min cooldown makes it up and sure go ahead, use those other pots while you are at it. lol you cant be serious with this one.

Uh, no? Lol. Stealth > get popped by pot > kite till pot is off > 2ndary squad stealth or normal if out of range > win.

Either you get stealth or you get its detection pot. Yes, tell this to an archer. I think they smile at you.

Archer's stealth isn't that effective compared to a sin's. They can't move nor double spark. I'd say archers are underpowered, so they can use stealth to shore up some of their weak points.


If stealth is OP or not, if needet or not, if unfair or not is nothing to discuss here about or if someone can play without it or cant play without it.

Did I ever say fair or unfair? Since when did unfair = unnecessary?
Its all a matter of the playstyle.

Its totaly fine with me, if you can play your assassin without stealthing one second of the fight or in the TW you are in right now, but the fact, that classes who has nothing to do with the stealth ability can detect you and protect themselfes is just stupid. either this or that.

I don't see a problem here. Let's say sins don't have stealth - I'd still call them pretty on par with all other classes. Therefore, with stealth, they have an advantage - which is countered by detection. If you haven't noticed, there is nothing that can't be countered by something else in the game. Faith will resist Soulburn, Purge nullifies Triple Spark, and Detection counters Stealth pots.

Either going offence or going defense but not both.

A sin can play offensive, a sin can play stealth-defense, and none of those cost regular apoth.

Another class can play offensive, another class can play stealth-pot defensive (preemptive strike), and none of those cost regular apoth.

Could this possibly be balance?

What would other people say, when there would be a pot, that increases stealth level by 2? Ontop of this, you can just use it and it doesnt cooldown the other pots. would that be fair? No of course not.

Apoth of a target counters the apoth of a sin. Stealth detection of a target counters stealth of a sin. It's a 1:1 ratio. I see nothing wrong.

Im for a Lv11 Cat-Like Thread, which increases the effect by one -_-

Yep, and give it 6 months and every rich sin will have it. Way to put even more distance between the rich and the poor.

I really don't understand your points. Sin w/o stealth is equal to another class. Sin w/o stealth with apoth is equal to another class with apoth. Sin w/ stealth with apoth is equal to another class with detection with apoth.

1:1
2:2
3:3

Or are you just disappointed that sins don't have the OP advantage they started out with? Not implying anything, of course.

Lycida - Harshlands

tsyfall wrote:

I don't see a problem here.

Well, I do. But I think you didn't notice your very own words.

tsyfall wrote:

If you haven't noticed, there is nothing that can't be countered by something else in the game.

That's the point actually. This discussion is NOT about having a counter for Stealth. It's about giving ot to EVERY frigging class there is (except the Sin itself)!
It's fine by me if Seeker and Mystic got a _Skill_ to detect Sins. But giving this possibility to everyone is realy like ripping off the stealth from Sins.

You know what? I've got a realy GREAT Idea how to end this discussion very quickly. Just delete all classes and their advantages and do somthing like the "Novice" or "Vagrant" in [SOME OTHER MMORPGs]. No more complains who got an advantage whatsoever. Problem solved.

Alright, joking aside. I realy thought of a possible solutiuon which would make at least me feel at ease.
Let's say the stealth skills of the Sin get redefined. They no longer increase the stealth level whatsoever. They only reduce the mana-cost and that'll be it. If a Sin uses stealth it's stealth level would be equal to its own level (or maybe one higher than). This way you can't see a Sin who is higher than you. On the other hand a level 100 char (no matter what class) could see a lvl 90 Sin.
That would be a little more fair than this pot.
But in order to not rip the advantage of stealth "completly" there could be an active buff that increases the stealth level for a short while. This would ensure the purpose of Shadow Escape. To escape from a dangerous situation.

How does this sound?

// Edit: Deleted the name of the MMORPG