Vicious group PK (Video)

AriesBreath - Raging Tide

I've been away from the game for too long to be able to be considered a "factor" of any sort, and I was just reading this thread for entertainment until...

Arawin - Raging Tide wrote: »

I doubt you can counter my points. Since I know all four are correct.

It's 3am and I was planning on sleeping, but alright.

Arawin - Raging Tide wrote: »

#1 - Gearing:

When you're dead... you do no healing. No supporting. No DDing. No NOTHING. You're dead on the ground eating nacho flavored dirt.

The way you've phrased this point has actually made it moot, but I will act as if you've phrased it in your favor.

A lowly geared Cleric standing in the back and spamming IH or purify on a single target is infinitely more useful than running to the front lines and trying to DD. Even if this Cleric somehow ninja dodges every single AoE that will 1 shot it and gets off a triple sparked tempest, the people it hit so spectacularly might just about smile at the shiny blue lights raining on them and grin at the 2-3 digit number appearing on their damage log.

A well timed purify from a low geared Cleric could save a R9.3 +12 squad member who would deal more damage in one hit than this poor little Cleric could dish out in an hour.

Arawin - Raging Tide wrote: »

#2 - Composition:

A balanced squad with some DD, some support and some tanks will do a lot better than a squad with all support. (or no support)

I'm sure a well played support cleric will always bring something to a squad. However, if you already have two well played support clerics, the diversity from a metal mage in the composition would bring more I believe.

I concur completely with your initial point that a balanced squad would probably be more effective than a full support or full offensive squad, but that's exactly the point everyone is trying to get across to you. I'll be honest and say that I didn't watch this particular video (sorry tia), but I've seen some of your personal TW videos from back in the day when you were the only Cleric in the squad. You were supposed to be the support of that squad but ended up playing as, well, as you usually do, and metal mage'd the whole TW. You might have thrown a rez here and there, but other than that, the only person you would cast any heal whatsoever on was yourself.

Arawin - Raging Tide wrote: »

#3 - Teamplay:

I'll use a cleric + wizard + archer for this example. If you play good assisting teamplay, the cleric can provide useful debuffs (while doing damage) to assist the wizard and archer to kill their target FASTER. The biggest one here is the huge crit buff on *TARGET* from mark of weakness. Clerics also bring pdef and mdef debuffs, as well as absorbs.

I don't really know why you separated this point from #2, because they have about the same reasoning and logic. Obviously everything is situational; if your team isn't being attacked there isn't any point in healing them is there? But when the common situation arises where you need to fulfill the support element of your squad and fail to do so, is when your arguments become invalid. You said yourself in #2. A well balanced squad is better than a full on all out offensive squad. When you play the way you do, is your squad really balanced?

Arawin - Raging Tide wrote: »

#4 - Support:

Guess what. A metal mage can still support. They can still Seal of God. They can still Sleep. They can still buff. They can still WoP. True, you can't heal. Healing isn't the only form of support. A well placed SoG can be a very valuable support for your team.

Granted, healing may not be the only form of support, but you make it sound like you can't do all of what you mentioned while you aren't in metal mage mode. You can. If a man doubled his wealth, would he then give half away? What's wrong with covering all your support bases and fulfilling that support role to balance the heavy offense in your squad?

Arawin - Raging Tide wrote: »

In the end, it doesn't really matter. It's a game and we will all play *exactly* how we want. No matter what anyone else says. Cuz it's a game and we want to personally have fun.

This I won't argue with. The entire basis of this debate is subjective and situational. There isn't a 1 way guide on how to play a game. Play it however you want.

Oh, and please note that I'm not trying to take puck shots at you. This is probably the first time I've actually interacted with you, so I have no qualms with you whatsoever. I just enjoy a good debate.

Cheers,
Aries.

Arawin - Raging Tide

AriesBreath - Raging Tide wrote: »

I've been away from the game for too long to be able to be considered a "factor" of any sort, and I was just reading this thread for entertainment until...



It's 3am and I was planning on sleeping, but alright.

I don't really know you either, but I do agree with most of your points.

The way you've phrased this point has actually made it moot, but I will act as if you've phrased it in your favor.

A lowly geared Cleric standing in the back and spamming IH or purify on a single target is infinitely more useful than running to the front lines and trying to DD. Even if this Cleric somehow ninja dodges every single AoE that will 1 shot it and gets off a triple sparked tempest, the people it hit so spectacularly might just about smile at the shiny blue lights raining on them and grin at the 2-3 digit number appearing on their damage log.

A well timed purify from a low geared Cleric could save a R9.3 +12 squad member who would deal more damage in one hit than this poor little Cleric could dish out in an hour.

That wasn't really my point tbh. I was more saying that "well geared metal mage" (Like Arawin or Elvenne) is better than "1 shot support cleric" in many situations. Not always. Just... in most situations, being alive is a hecka lot more useful than someone being dead.

I concur completely with your initial point that a balanced squad would probably be more effective than a full support or full offensive squad, but that's exactly the point everyone is trying to get across to you. I'll be honest and say that I didn't watch this particular video (sorry tia), but I've seen some of your personal TW videos from back in the day when you were the only Cleric in the squad. You were supposed to be the support of that squad but ended up playing as, well, as you usually do, and metal mage'd the whole TW. You might have thrown a rez here and there, but other than that, the only person you would cast any heal whatsoever on was yourself.

I don't really know why you separated this point from #2, because they have about the same reasoning and logic. Obviously everything is situational; if your team isn't being attacked there isn't any point in healing them is there? But when the common situation arises where you need to fulfill the support element of your squad and fail to do so, is when your arguments become invalid. You said yourself in #2. A well balanced squad is better than a full on all out offensive squad. When you play the way you do, is your squad really balanced?

I agree. As the only cleric in a squad, support would be a better role. However I do not enjoy that role. This is my personal taste, nothing more. I have made well clear I play metal mage, and if I'm put in a squad as the only support cleric, I feel that is the squad makers... error? Since it's pretty unlikely I am going to fill that role.

Granted, healing may not be the only form of support, but you make it sound like you can't do all of what you mentioned while you aren't in metal mage mode. You can. If a man doubled his wealth, would he then give half away? What's wrong with covering all your support bases and fulfilling that support role to balance the heavy offense in your squad?

True. I didn't mean that other clerics cannot do those things. In fact elv SoG me all the time. (Simply because if not, I SoG him...) My main point was exactly your first sentence, that healing is not the only form of support.

This I won't argue with. The entire basis of this debate is subjective and situational. There isn't a 1 way guide on how to play a game. Play it however you want.

Oh, and please note that I'm not trying to take puck shots at you. This is probably the first time I've actually interacted with you, so I have no qualms with you whatsoever. I just enjoy a good debate.

Cheers,
Aries.

Yeah. I just don't enjoy it when someone (not you!) acts like the way I want to play the game is wrong. It's a game. You're supposed to enjoy it. Playing a way you don't enjoy it just seems stupid to me. I know some people enjoy support. Some enjoy tanking. And some (most!) enjoy killing stuff.

When I used to play a certain MMO with orcs and humans, they had an arena system in place for organized PK. And I remember in the 2v2 bracket there were 2 main ways to play. Double DD, or 1 support + 1 DD. Most people played the support+DD since it was the easiest.

My friend and I however, played a different composition. Tank + support. (He was the support.) While totally unconventional, it WORKED. We won #1 on our server and top10 in our 'battlegroup'. No one knew how to counter us... and it was a lot of fun. (Plus I enjoy tank!)

Anyway, said friend loved playing support. I loved playing tank. And we made our team work and had fun. Playing the way we want to.

AriesBreath - Raging Tide

Arawin - Raging Tide wrote: »

That wasn't really my point tbh. I was more saying that "well geared metal mage" (Like Arawin or Elvenne) is better than "1 shot support cleric" in many situations. Not always. Just... in most situations, being alive is a hecka lot more useful than someone being dead.

This isn't really a very fair comparison though. It's like asking someone "which tastes better? A rotten apple encrusted in maggots or a succulent juicy filet mignon bathed in red wine sauce?" Just like how a well geared metal mage would probably out-perform a 1 shot support Cleric, a well geared support Cleric would vastly out perform a 1 shot metal mage. This then becomes a very one sided debate of "good gear > bad gear" and not "support vs metal mage".

Arawin - Raging Tide wrote: »

I agree. As the only cleric in a squad, support would be a better role. However I do not enjoy that role. This is my personal taste, nothing more. I have made well clear I play metal mage, and if I'm put in a squad as the only support cleric, I feel that is the squad makers... error? Since it's pretty unlikely I am going to fill that role.

This then also doesn't attribute to the debate of "support vs metal mage". It comes down to the numbers in your faction and the decisions of you and your squad maker. Completely subjective. Though this has gotten me curious; if you don't like playing the support role, why'd you make a support class?

Arawin - Raging Tide wrote: »

True. I didn't mean that other clerics cannot do those things. In fact elv SoG me all the time. (Simply because if not, I SoG him...) My main point was exactly your first sentence, that healing is not the only form of support.

Yeah. I just don't enjoy it when someone (not you!) acts like the way I want to play the game is wrong. It's a game. You're supposed to enjoy it. Playing a way you don't enjoy it just seems stupid to me. I know some people enjoy support. Some enjoy tanking. And some (most!) enjoy killing stuff.

Basically what this all has boiled down to is that we will play exactly how we want, and not metal mage < support or vice versa.

But, as long as you're having fun, that's all that matters, right?

In other news, go flame! b:chuckle

Arawin - Raging Tide

AriesBreath - Raging Tide wrote: »

This isn't really a very fair comparison though. It's like asking someone "which tastes better? A rotten apple encrusted in maggots or a succulent juicy filet mignon bathed in red wine sauce?" Just like how a well geared metal mage would probably out-perform a 1 shot support Cleric, a well geared support Cleric would vastly out perform a 1 shot metal mage. This then becomes a very one sided debate of "good gear > bad gear" and not "support vs metal mage".

Yeah. Pretty much my point. There was never a "support vs metal mage" for this point really. It was just "A well geared X" will generally outperform "a poorly geared Y"... even in the case where X = support clereic and Y is metal mage. I'm pretty sure a R9rr+12 strength barb will outperform a T3+5 vit barb for cata pullnig too.

This then also doesn't attribute to the debate of "support vs metal mage". It comes down to the numbers in your faction and the decisions of you and your squad maker. Completely subjective. Though this has gotten me curious; if you don't like playing the support role, why'd you make a support class?

A few reasons I guess.
#1 - Wing Elf Clerics were the only class that could fly indefinitely at level one. Since one of my main goals was to explore the world when I started, this weighed in over everything else. I was unaware that all classes could fly indefinitely at level 30 at the time. Once I hit a point when I realized the Cleric class didn't really fit how I enjoyed playing, I had already become attached to my character... and well, I'm sure you know how that is.

#2 - I generally play the tank or healer role in MMO. Not that I don't enjoy doing damage, but the success of a squad generally depends heavily upon those two roles. Since I dislike failing due to others, I usually take those roles upon myself. (Usually the tank. In fact in every other MMO I play a tank. You may have noticed I built arawin as "tanky" as I could. This is kinda due to my love for tanking.)

#3 - I tried twice to reroll other classes. (Archer and Assassin.) While I do have some love for those toons, neither is as tanky as Arawin... and I don't really enjoy playing them quite as much.

Basically what this all has boiled down to is that we will play exactly how we want, and not metal mage < support or vice versa.

But, as long as you're having fun, that's all that matters, right?

In other news, go flame! b:chuckle

Haha, yeah. And it's not just vicious people. I've gotten in HEAVY arguments with a certain wizard in my faction during TW about this exact point. Basically winds up with us yelling at each other and me ending with "If you want the barb healed, YOU *#(%*#U do it." or something. Hahaha.

I seriously had a R9 person one time QQing for HALF an hour about missing the cleric regen buff. After HE walked away when I was buffing. Seriously, a few HP/second regen is not a big deal. x.x


I will bring up another point though, one I just thought of. Sometimes when I do go and support the barb in TW, I find myself getting ransacked by MANY people. (Sins, psys, archers, bms, etc...) Unless I have IG or AD ready, I find myself forced to either protect myself or run away. And I can't really kill them if I'm busy supporting the barb.

Maybe that makes no sense, let me try to put my thoughts plainly. If you want to play a good support cleric, you NEED YOUR SQUAD TO SUPPORT YOU TOO. Since this *NEVER* happens, I tend to hate supporting anyone. Back when I wasn't quite the tank I am now, I remember some OP wizards QQing for buffs or heals... all while I have 2 sins ganking me. Gee thanks.

./sigh

I think that part is what really turned me off from playing a "support cleric role"...

AriesBreath - Raging Tide

Arawin - Raging Tide wrote: »

A few reasons I guess.
#1 - Wing Elf Clerics were the only class that could fly indefinitely at level one. Since one of my main goals was to explore the world when I started, this weighed in over everything else. I was unaware that all classes could fly indefinitely at level 30 at the time. Once I hit a point when I realized the Cleric class didn't really fit how I enjoyed playing, I had already become attached to my character... and well, I'm sure you know how that is.

#2 - I generally play the tank or healer role in MMO. Not that I don't enjoy doing damage, but the success of a squad generally depends heavily upon those two roles. Since I dislike failing due to others, I usually take those roles upon myself. (Usually the tank. In fact in every other MMO I play a tank. You may have noticed I built arawin as "tanky" as I could. This is kinda due to my love for tanking.)

#3 - I tried twice to reroll other classes. (Archer and Assassin.) While I do have some love for those toons, neither is as tanky as Arawin... and I don't really enjoy playing them quite as much.

Fair enough. Yeah, I actually only created a Cleric because I wanted to fly from level 1 lmao. I started out with 3 other friends on this game, and since none of them wanted to play a Cleric, I chose it over playing an Archer. I don't regret my decision, though.

Arawin - Raging Tide wrote: »

I seriously had a R9 person one time QQing for HALF an hour about missing the cleric regen buff. After HE walked away when I was buffing. Seriously, a few HP/second regen is not a big deal. x.x

Don't you just hate that though? It really bothers me when people demand for that regen buff in PvP situations. First of all in combat your regen goes down to something microscopic like 10% of the original, and 10HP/MP per second is microscopic to begin with.

Arawin - Raging Tide wrote: »

I will bring up another point though, one I just thought of. Sometimes when I do go and support the barb in TW, I find myself getting ransacked by MANY people. (Sins, psys, archers, bms, etc...) Unless I have IG or AD ready, I find myself forced to either protect myself or run away. And I can't really kill them if I'm busy supporting the barb.

Maybe that makes no sense, let me try to put my thoughts plainly. If you want to play a good support cleric, you NEED YOUR SQUAD TO SUPPORT YOU TOO. Since this *NEVER* happens, I tend to hate supporting anyone. Back when I wasn't quite the tank I am now, I remember some OP wizards QQing for buffs or heals... all while I have 2 sins ganking me. Gee thanks.

./sigh

I think that part is what really turned me off from playing a "support cleric role"...

Yeah that's a fair point. Most people don't realize how high a priority Clerics usually are in terms of targeting. (Or they used to be, I'm not sure how everyone prioritizes their targets now.) Many a time I've been asked to rez someone when I myself am kissing the floor to show it gratitude for being there. *Tags moe*

Dylena - Raging Tide

AriesBreath - Raging Tide wrote: »

Fair enough. Yeah, I actually only created a Cleric because I wanted to fly from level 1 lmao. I started out with 3 other friends on this game, and since none of them wanted to play a Cleric, I chose it over playing an Archer. I don't regret my decision, though.





Don't you just hate that though? It really bothers me when people demand for that regen buff in PvP situations. First of all in combat your regen goes down to something microscopic like 10% of the original, and 10HP/MP per second is microscopic to begin with.




Yeah that's a fair point. Most people don't realize how high a priority Clerics usually are in terms of targeting. (Or they used to be, I'm not sure how everyone prioritizes their targets now.) Many a time I've been asked to rez someone when I myself am kissing the floor to show it gratitude for being there. *Tags moe*

I SAVED YOU MORE TIMES THEN I CAN REMEMBER! YOU REMEMBER THOSE TIMES WHEN YOU'RE LIKE "MOE SIN ON ME!" AND IM ALL LIKE, WHAT SIN BRAH AND YOU LOOK AGAIN AND HES TASTING DIRT ALL DAY! YEAH THAT WAS ME BRAH, THAT WAS ME!

No but srsly, Aries is one of the best clerics I've met on this game and its a shame he fell behind in gears and ability to play due to RL. You were my fav man! MY FAVORITE! b:cry

Arawin - Raging Tide

Dylena - Raging Tide wrote: »

I SAVED YOU MORE TIMES THEN I CAN REMEMBER! YOU REMEMBER THOSE TIMES WHEN YOU'RE LIKE "MOE SIN ON ME!" AND IM ALL LIKE, WHAT SIN BRAH AND YOU LOOK AGAIN AND HES TASTING DIRT ALL DAY! YEAH THAT WAS ME BRAH, THAT WAS ME!

No but srsly, Aries is one of the best clerics I've met on this game and its a shame he fell behind in gears and ability to play due to RL. You were my fav man! MY FAVORITE! b:cry

Don't cry favored target!! He was at TW! And I Saw him in NW too!

And your first paragraph really made me laugh. XD

AriesBreath - Raging Tide

Dylena - Raging Tide wrote: »

I SAVED YOU MORE TIMES THEN I CAN REMEMBER! YOU REMEMBER THOSE TIMES WHEN YOU'RE LIKE "MOE SIN ON ME!" AND IM ALL LIKE, WHAT SIN BRAH AND YOU LOOK AGAIN AND HES TASTING DIRT ALL DAY! YEAH THAT WAS ME BRAH, THAT WAS ME!

No but srsly, Aries is one of the best clerics I've met on this game and its a shame he fell behind in gears and ability to play due to RL. You were my fav man! MY FAVORITE! b:cry

Hahaha. b:laugh I knew that would irk moe! Okay I was lying, moe really does keep those pesky sins off of me. He's the best!
...Most of the time. b:avoid

I really miss the old times when we'd be doing stuff daily and everyone was on vent 24/7. Those were the days. b:cry

Dylena - Raging Tide

Arawin - Raging Tide wrote: »

Don't cry favored target!! He was at TW! And I Saw him in NW too!

And your first paragraph really made me laugh. XD

AriesBreath - Raging Tide wrote: »

Hahaha. b:laugh I knew that would irk moe! Okay I was lying, moe really does keep those pesky sins off of me. He's the best!
...Most of the time. b:avoid

I really miss the old times when we'd be doing stuff daily and everyone was on vent 24/7. Those were the days. b:cry

PESKY CLERICS! YOU GUYS THINK YOU ARE ALL THAT BUT I GOT NEW FOR YOU GUYS....YOU'RE NOT! I DON'T NEED YOU, I DON'T NEED YOUR BUFFS! I WILL GO ALL EVASION ORNAMENTS WITH G12 AMBER'S AND MY SUPER DUPER OP EVASION BUFFS! NEXT TIME YOU GET SLAUGHTERED BY SINS YOU WILL BEG FOR MY EVASION! b:irritated