Stay with the pull or the DD that aggroed?

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

I mostly play HA classes except for my cleric, so I'm usually the puller and here is a situation I run into all the time. I start the pull and as soon as I run by a set of mobs one of the dd's aggro them behind me. Usually its an archer, but alot of times its a wizard or a sin teleporting group to group. If I stop, kill the mobs, then start to pull again the same thing happens and the DD aggros 2 mobs as I run past them, so eventually I stop stopping to assist. I don't want to do my instances 2-3 mobs at a time when I can pull 20-30 and zhen them.

Now the cleric and the rest of the squad has a choice. Stick with the tank who is doing the 25 mob pull, or help the DD who has 2-3 mobs on them. What do you do?

I personally will give the DD one IH then leave them. They now have 15 seconds of heals to either kill the mobs of bring them along and add them to the pull. If it happens repeatedly I stop healing them. They want to play tank, then they can tank without heals because I'm gonna follow the designated tank who is doing the really big pull and actually being useful. A death or two might teach the DD to stop aggroing mobs and to work as a team.

As a barb, bm, and seeker (I even do large pulls on my sin, usually) its kind of an 'aww ****' moment when you pull 30 mobs, stop and invoke, and then realize the other 5 people in your squad are no where around because 5 people stopped to help a wizard kill 2 mobs.

HrunsPanda - Archosaur

As a barb, i stop the first time (if i notice), tell them not to do it again, if they do again i ignore them.

As a cleric i stay with my puller.

As another player i stay with my cleric.

thumbs

Stay with the pull.

It can be an honest mistake, but they can always bring that mob with them.

There's too much tolerance for derpa 1-1 dds.

Desdi - Sanctuary

Pretty much stay with the pull.
Throw an IH and go for the tank. I don't see why I'd stick with the DD who decided to aggro mobs (especially if they do it repeatedly).

On other toons, I'd go with the puller to try and help AOE/stun/etc. I don't really care if the Cleric is not even around as I don't mind dying. I can understand someone else would mind though.

SMASHnHEAL - Dreamweaver

Stay with the puller, the DD's that constantly agro 1 mob at a time will learn very quickly not to do so. The DD's should be able to handle the couple of mobs long enough to run to where the cleric is if they want to live.

Jeremied - Sanctuary

I'd definitely stay with the pull/tank. On individual groups without running, sure, I'll toss heals on everyone if they get poked. But if I'm trying to keep up with someone that just holy-pathed away from me while leading a horde of mobs and someone pulls aggro of a mob or two, that's their fault. I mean, by the level that pulling even begins to be a viable tactic most people should know a thing or two about aggro mechanics, or at least be able to survive a few seconds with pots/genie heals.

If the DD can handle those 1-2 mobs without heals, then good for them. I wouldn't even stop to IH them, because there's a chance I could get aggro then too, which is...not something I want. If they can't handle those mobs, then they just learned they shouldn't take aggro while I go heal the tank and shouldn't do it again after a nice res.

And if they continue, let them lie there in the dirt while the tank/cleric explains why they shouldn't do it again. Eating dirt is great to get people to pay attention.

Of course, the DD is welcome to run with the rest of the group so the mass of aoes at the end of the pull gets aggro off them and they're in range to heal, but some people don't think that far ahead and just run in circles screaming "cleric heal" while I'm 100m away in BB keeping the rest of the squad alive.

Liam_ - Sanctuary

Obvious choice here. Follow the tank and leave the DPS to it.

If a DD can't take down a mob 1 v 1, they shouldn't be hitting anything unless the tank has visibly taken agro. I don't believe in "relying" on cleric heals as a DPS, the only heals you should expect are when you're the tank or the boss/mobs are aoe'ing. As a DPS, your job should also be to make the cleric's job as easy as possible, thus allowing them to focus on the tank and themselves, thus increasing squad efficiency and success. Anything with BP in particular has zero excuse. If you do pull agro as DPS and the cleric saves you it's fine ofc, be grateful for it. But if you pull mobs and die and start throwing hate at the cleric, that's when it's a problem.

However, this particular story smells of an individual example you experienced rather than a common occurrence. Bad squads do sometimes happen, and as frustrating as it there's often little you can do except struggle through, complete your instance and hope you never meet that group again.
But, in the other cases where things like that happen, communication is key. Squads rarely communicate nowadays, automatically assuming no one will listen or it will cause an argument, but it can have surprising results. Start off with a friendly greeting, and simply clarify "I'm going to pull to the door, that ok -cleric's name-? ". If a DD does pull a mob at first, kindly ask them to hold off attacking until you've pulled the mobs. Stay cheerful and friendly, sometimes people panic otherwise, we're all human after all. Once a squad develops a basic level of communication and there's no pressure, it's far easier to coordinate a smooth run.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Liam_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

However, this particular story smells of an individual example you experienced rather than a common occurrence.

It is a very common occurance, although for the most part the sin or the archer that pulls them off me can either tank and solo them (even though the cleric sticks around) or will follow. It's just the fact they keep doing it.

You're right, though. The example was an individual experience. I was pulling on my seeker and everytime I hit my sprint button to start a pull the mobs would be attacked when I was about 15m past them. Do I turn around and help them, then wait 60 seconds for my sprint to cooldown? Do I turn around, help, and then do my next pulls at 5m/s? Or do I hope they know enough to bring the mobs with them or solo.

I was already feeling slightly guilty because I pulled 2 frogs and 6 mobs together (yes, only 2 frogs) and their aoe killed the 5.4k hp sin and the 3.2k hp wizard. I kept aggro but the cleric cast chromatic aoe heal which was too slow for the squishies to stay alive. Even though its not really my fault that 2 mob aoes can kill them, I still apologized and rebuffed. Then tried to start my next pulls but everytime I'd go the wizard would attack, die, we'd kill the mobs, rez the wizard, rebuff, and do it all over again.

What I did was I helped twice. Then I said "is the wizard going to tank or let me pull?" hoping that would end it.

The particular squad makeup was the cleric had like 8k hp, +10 most things, level 103? but loved to spam chromatic even if there was no aoe and I had all the aggro. The four DDs were from the same faction including the wizard that kept making the mistake. The leader was one of those DDs. The cleric and I weren't from the faction and were prolly randoms. Even though it was pretty clear it was the wizards mistake I was risking being kicked by saying so. I told the cleric to let them die the next time they did that so they learned and it made me the enemy.

Anyways, it happens alot. It doesn't always have to happen 3 times before I say something, and many dd's will immediately apologize and say "oh, I didn't know you were gonna pull. Sorry." and all is forgiven. Mistakes happen, but stupidity should be corrected. I just have a feeling its our community allowing stupid things to happen over and over again that makes it okay for them to keep making the same mistakes over and over again.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands

Communication.

If people was communicating, we would not see that kind of question.

You are cleric, you can ask the barb/puller how many groups/mobs he will pull, as the DDs can ask too, a lot of squads don't run the same way and the DDs don't know if the barb/puller will pull or not many groups/mobs.

When I'm on my cleric in a place when people make different pull like BH snake (metal) I do ask the barb/puller ''How many group you will take?'', cause some squads do group by group, some do 2-3 groups, some do half or even full, but without communication yes it's mess up and people are not sure how many the barb/puller will take. (for random squads)

I do remember when I was doing FC 2-3 years ago at lvl 9x people was doing it and ask where the barb/puller will stop his pull, now people are so hurry that they don't speak anymore and don't communicate and they run everywhere without a word and when it fail the DDs blame the cleric, the cleric blame the barb/puller/DDs, the barb/puller blame the DDs/cleric, while it's everyone's fault.

Some good barb/puller will say without been ask how many he will pull, but if he don't say other people can ask how he pull. I do like when the barb/puller make the call without been ask at the start: ''I'll pull the first 3 groups then after that the rest.'' so you know where to go, but if he don't I ask.

I don't know if people don't ask cause they are to shy or think they are to good and they don't bother to ask, but it's the kind of situation that could be easy fix with a bit of communication.

HrunsPanda - Archosaur

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

Communication.

If people was communicating, we would not see that kind of question.

You are cleric, you can ask the barb/puller how many groups/mobs he will pull, as the DDs can ask too, a lot of squads don't run the same way and the DDs don't know if the barb/puller will pull or not many groups/mobs.

When I'm on my cleric in a place when people make different pull like BH snake (metal) I do ask the barb/puller ''How many group you will take?'', cause some squads do group by group, some do 2-3 groups, some do half or even full, but without communication yes it's mess up and people are not sure how many the barb/puller will take. (for random squads)

I do remember when I was doing FC 2-3 years ago at lvl 9x people was doing it and ask where the barb/puller will stop his pull, now people are so hurry that they don't speak anymore and don't communicate and they run everywhere without a word and when it fail the DDs blame the cleric, the cleric blame the barb/puller/DDs, the barb/puller blame the DDs/cleric, while it's everyone's fault.

Some good barb/puller will say without been ask how many he will pull, but if he don't say other people can ask how he pull. I do like when the barb/puller make the call without been ask at the start: ''I'll pull the first 3 groups then after that the rest.'' so you know where to go, but if he don't I ask.

I don't know if people don't ask cause they are to shy or think they are to good and they don't bother to ask, but it's the kind of situation that could be easy fix with a bit of communication.

It shouldnt be need to know beforehand though right ? Its not that hard to run after the barb and wait before attacking anything until you see the roar animation. Surely i can have the intention to pull a certain amount, but i like the flexibility to improvise Sometimes things just work out better than other times, so sometimes i might feel like going on and others i might stop and go for a smaller pull

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands

HrunsPanda - Archosaur wrote: »

It shouldnt be need to know beforehand though right ? Its not that hard to run after the barb and wait before attacking anything until you see the roar animation. Surely i can have the intention to pull a certain amount, but i like the flexibility to improvise Sometimes things just work out better than other times, so sometimes i might feel like going on and others i might stop and go for a smaller pull

It's not always barbs that pull it's why I said ''barb/puller'' sometime the puller is not necessary the tank or the biggest AOE DD (I do see psychics be pullers or even mystics), as some barbs are really slow on the roar. (like really slow and some at the point of dying)

I don't say improvisation is bad, but the OP wonder if he should stay with the DD behind or go with the barb/puller, which could be fix by communication.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

Communication.

Totally agree. But there is something to be said for both repetition and just rolling with the punches.

Really, almost no new content has been introduced in 2.5 years and there are very few new players. Our gear far exceeds what people used to do the same instance and same pulls with.

It shouldn't "need" to be said everytime. "I'm going to start a pull. I'm pulling 8 groups and stopping at the gate mob. Don't attack while I pull. Wait to heal till after I've invoked and roared." That all should be common sense and repitition. If the mobs are grouped funny, or somewhere in their walking route I may change my pull. If I have skills in cd I may change the pull. Most the time "ready?" or "pulling" is all that it really takes so people can stop me if they have questions or need, lets say, time for their genie to regen so they can keep up HP with the pull.

Communication is great but it shouldn't be just as valuable is paying attention, understanding the game (how pulls work, how the instance has been ran the last 1000 times you've been there), and being malleable if things don't go exactly as planned.

ovenusarmanio

I agree with Bella, if you don't communicate it's your fault too. So many people do pulls different ways. I very rarely had people doing pulls as big as the ones you're describing Saku, but when I did do snake on my sin, the DD would somtime start attacking to try to time their move with say bm roar, to maximize damage. Sometimes this would cause the situation you're describing. Clerics often try to go by who is in danger of dying as priority, and if they think your gear is good enough to come back to them or handle it yourself for a few seconds, they might stay with the DD. A lot of the DDs tend to stay with the cleric. Different people do things different way, and just because you've repeatedly done things one way doesn't mean others have. Communication is so vital to pro squads, and so often missing. A lot of people forget that their pro perma squad started off as a squad that got along well with each other and communicated, and only later developed into killing machines because through repetition they knew what the other was going to do before they did it.

And if you're with randoms, it could very well be that haven't done the instance before or often and aren't familiar with the norm, or simply are more used to a permasquad that does things differently. So each and every time it's important to communicate with them. I've run random squads for everything almost exclusively for the last 2 years. Due to my erratic IRL schedule that makes scheduling things completely non-conducive for permasquadding. Every fail squad that I have had has suffered from a lack of communication, every epic squad communicated well.

Christona - Raging Tide

I see this as lack of communication. Theres two things going on. First the dd can die, they were dumb and did not wait and now they can wait for a rez. Second, as a slow *** cleric i want to know where we are pulling to so i can gage out how far it is and know when to holypath, yes i have apoth but i try to save mine for when i really need one and know if i need to say hold on give me x amount of time so i can full stamina on my genie.
Example: early someone mentioned fc 90+. On the second pull to the bubble boss. I always want to know even on my alts where we are pulling to. In my eyes, it was a hard pull to just guess where the puller was going to stop.in the 90's my cleric didnt have a great genie.. i had two.holypaths to make it to the end or i had to use apoth. In order for me heal and be there to do my job i had to know if it was 3rd shade so i could be there on time and have bb up on time

Same goes for warsong metal. I always ask what pull we are doing. I make the puller tell me. If they dont
. I just dont run and say i didnt know were pulling. Do i really need to know, prolly not. I have been around enoigh to know what to do during most pulls. But does the cleric in the next run know? I dont know. If me not running.makes the puller go.hey i need to tell my cleric where im going and that im going i will happily look like anoob.

tweakz

There's no lack of communication. There are archers that just love to pull a squad back to where they are by aggroing the mob they're on. They won't even wait for you to hit it. It's rude, and counterproductive.

I agree w/ Sakubatou on this. The signs are all there. We telegraph what we're doing.

If we told people where we're pulling to: we'd get that same stupid archer unloading on the mobs as soon as we he got to the spot.

It's not like barbs need a healer immediately after a pull. I don't tend to pull what I can't solo w/ bp.

skaitavia

Closed for necro.