Why the Heck are sins OP!?

OHelixSykar - Archosaur

I agree that they are fun to play and there is no doubt that they are one if not the most efficient farmers. But I have to disagree with your opinion on sins being weak in 1v1 or TW.

I don't think they are OP nor weak just in between. From what I gather, your argument is that if a sin was to 1v1 a wiz, the sin's cc skills would be ineffective because of the purify proc. While that is true that doesn't mean that the cleric would beat them easily. Here's a video: *Hope Skai doesn't mind me linking his video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqB9pQIqMjI
It seems yes he may have lost but it did take a lot to kill him. Also just because sins are somewhat squishy doesn't mean they can be one-shot that easily. Crit's and zerk's are about luck and not skill so if you wanted to add luck, I'm pretty sure with all the sins crit rate, there's more of a chance a barb would lose due to the crits and zerk if lucky. Although I admit I haven't seen nor have a sin that is r9s3 that I can use to back myself up.

If you browse through Skai's videos, you can see that sin's are nowhere near underpowered and are definitely not OP.
-oHelixSykar

VKnightV - Lost City

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

So, while I think the guy is a complete tool when it comes to the issue of Purify Spell, it does somewhat bug me to see so many people mispelling his name when there's really no excuse to. It's Adroit, not Androit. We are on a public forum with full access to everyone's names, along with full access to built in thingamadoodle that tells you if your words are spelled wrong. Stop mispelling ****. Names, words, I don't care. Just freaking stop already you monkeys.

and are you adroit um no so why do you care KID

go back to school if you care for spelling so much you might enjoy it.

anyways i dont really care for kids who have yet to come to the real world..... grow up kid

VKnightV - Lost City

OHelixSykar - Archosaur wrote: »

I agree that they are fun to play and there is no doubt that they are one if not the most efficient farmers. But I have to disagree with your opinion on sins being weak in 1v1 or TW.

I don't think they are OP nor weak just in between. From what I gather, your argument is that if a sin was to 1v1 a wiz, the sin's cc skills would be ineffective because of the purify proc. While that is true that doesn't mean that the cleric would beat them easily. Here's a video: *Hope Skai doesn't mind me linking his video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqB9pQIqMjI
It seems yes he may have lost but it did take a lot to kill him. Also just because sins are somewhat squishy doesn't mean they can be one-shot that easily. Crit's and zerk's are about luck and not skill so if you wanted to add luck, I'm pretty sure with all the sins crit rate, there's more of a chance a barb would lose due to the crits and zerk if lucky. Although I admit I haven't seen nor have a sin that is r9s3 that I can use to back myself up.

If you browse through Skai's videos, you can see that sin's are nowhere near underpowered and are definitely not OP.
-oHelixSykar

the problem with sin is they have advantage of stealth and spamable stun zeal sleep teleport and there tidal.

tho tidal depend on luck if the player is good and lucky he can make some really insane moves.

like ignoring a stun zeal and sleep and keep ding while nobady else could do that without wasting apot genie.

so if lucky and good player a sin can be really deadly scary even.

also just cos many player dont have luck dont mean some do.

crith+zerk and tidal all is based on luck

Joe - Momaganon

OHelixSykar - Archosaur wrote: »

I agree that they are fun to play and there is no doubt that they are one if not the most efficient farmers. But I have to disagree with your opinion on sins being weak in 1v1 or TW.

I don't think they are OP nor weak just in between. From what I gather, your argument is that if a sin was to 1v1 a wiz, the sin's cc skills would be ineffective because of the purify proc. While that is true that doesn't mean that the cleric would beat them easily. Here's a video: *Hope Skai doesn't mind me linking his video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqB9pQIqMjI
It seems yes he may have lost but it did take a lot to kill him. Also just because sins are somewhat squishy doesn't mean they can be one-shot that easily. Crit's and zerk's are about luck and not skill so if you wanted to add luck, I'm pretty sure with all the sins crit rate, there's more of a chance a barb would lose due to the crits and zerk if lucky. Although I admit I haven't seen nor have a sin that is r9s3 that I can use to back myself up.

If you browse through Skai's videos, you can see that sin's are nowhere near underpowered and are definitely not OP.
-oHelixSykar

An there in your video we see that the cleric is just plain weak. If r9r3 Cleric with +12 weap while skai just had around 15k HP back then...just try til sleep hits, elemental and dimensonal seal....triple spark....crit skill (that ignores def levels and such) -> end of the line if it hits or the sin uses AD. the sin would still be sleeping even if it misses through Domain or if it hits and doesn't deal enough DMG...

We can argue that sins are really fun to play yes they are and they got chances against the most classes but not clerics. What I have seen recently from Clerics makes me consider Clerics the most OP class ever in this game. And I never said that a Class is OP til now.

Tho a well played sin can easily kill not so well played chars of any other class...it depends on the players skill pretty much.

My suggestions are all reffered to a fight between equally geared and to an extend played toons. That's it. YOu can't really compare it if one of the contestants fail at their class. And here comes the point where it is getting very hard to calculate...

darkana3

Oh man what a joke joe.a barb whos running around with a white name
And doenst show up for pk ,and talks about our sins on momaganon like that.
Mate your not even outside sz.show up and you would be just a lying corpse the whole time at west gate.you know nothing just stay SZ like always and post on forums .like you farmed 16 kkk b:laugh bwahahaha.oh something else, it doesnt count if you show up on the upper right corner for pk.
No ones there o.o

SinFulGodX - Sanctuary

Ok come on sanc and 1v1 Kyougu, Joe :S

Joe - Momaganon

darkana3 wrote: »

Oh man what a joke joe.a barb whos running around with a white name
And doenst show up for pk ,and talks about our sins on momaganon like that.
Mate your not even outside sz.show up and you would be just a lying corpse the whole time at west gate.you know nothing just stay SZ like always and post on forums .like you farmed 16 kkk b:laugh bwahahaha.oh something else, it doesnt count if you show up on the upper right corner for pk.
No ones there o.o

As if anyone could beat me alone on Momaganon, the only one capable of this would be AlbDruid. I saw them play against others. They simply fail. When I'm done with my barb the way I want him you well never ever see my name turning blue again =P

SinFulGodX - Sanctuary wrote: »

Ok come on sanc and 1v1 Kyougu, Joe :S

I played on sanct for 3 years actually xDD Just had a Main BM^^ compared to nowadays his gear is **** like hell xD

It's hard to decently PvP here on fair conditions...there will always be someone QQing about anything being unfair...if I pk then only 1on1 if anyone interferes...I'm out.

Lucrecia - Momaganon

honestly what **** sins did you meet endgame Oo? Just look at PREIST LOL
Sins are OP in pvp because of their stealth + stun combo only IMO, but thats already deadly for many casters (and archers).

Its true, demon sins might get some problems because apsing MIGHT not kill the target so they need to place their stuns pretty good but sage sins ... lets just say say hurt especially in TW. of course as a barb you dont have so problems but other classes do.

And for your last post ... just lol ! i really hope you mean no one could beat you in CSing ...b:embarrass

SinFulGodX - Sanctuary

Joe - Momaganon wrote: »

As if anyone could beat me alone on Momaganon, the only one capable of this would be AlbDruid. I saw them play against others. They simply fail. When I'm done with my barb the way I want him you well never ever see my name turning blue again =P



I played on sanct for 3 years actually xDD Just had a Main BM^^ compared to nowadays his gear is **** like hell xD

It's hard to decently PvP here on fair conditions...there will always be someone QQing about anything being unfair...if I pk then only 1on1 if anyone interferes...I'm out.

Yea i said 1v1 him :S

darkana3

PREIST or Inhuman they both kill you alone without problems, better dont talk if your not even outside to pk b:bye

Joe - Momaganon

Lucrecia - Momaganon wrote: »

honestly what **** sins did you meet endgame Oo? Just look at PREIST LOL
Sins are OP in pvp because of their stealth + stun combo only IMO, but thats already deadly for many casters (and archers).

Its true, demon sins might get some problems because apsing MIGHT not kill the target so they need to place their stuns pretty good but sage sins ... lets just say say hurt especially in TW. of course as a barb you dont have so problems but other classes do.

And for your last post ... just lol ! i really hope you mean no one could beat you in CSing ...b:embarrass

I don't CS at least I did not on Momaganon. I was a Pack junkie back then on Sanctuary....nvw... I meant it the way I said it...I killed preist 3 times alrdy in NW when he was buffed and I wasn't, he is the biggest Overgeared nub on our server lol.

You didn't get my point. We talked about equal geared players >.< ofc preist easily deals with tt90 nubs...but all r9r3s do, so nothing special on the sin side in that matter^^

SinFulGodX - Sanctuary wrote: »

Yea i said 1v1 him :S

Give my an equal geared toon of a random class and I burn him to waste (: or tell him to roll on a PServer, that way is far more cost efficient xDD

darkana3 wrote: »

PREIST or Inhuman they both kill you alone without problems, better dont talk if your not even outside to pk b:bye

Muharharharhar don't make me laugh. Honestly what on Earth makes you think that? Do you have any valid reasons why they should have it easy with me? They tried so many times in nw and failed any time. you should do your homework before talking. I don't respect both of them, they lack skill and could play way better. But honestly...why should they? there are so few players on Moma where they could even train on to get better.

Shall I tell you how many times Inhuman killed himself on my Bramble-Roar since server start...you would die laughing.

I'll be in pk soon enough, no worries^^

Don't missunderstand me, I like both in Person, but...well they could play better and pay closer Attention on what they are doing.

BTT: This Thread was to clarify that Sins are not OP and gotten out of hands, we heard a few reasons why they are clearly not OP. I guess it can be closed (: Don't want it to end into a flame war.

Kniraven - Lost City

Full r9rr sin has incredibly high dph and survivability, especially if sage.
I am a full r9rr +10 BM and while i myself don't have major issues with equal geared sins, i still do see sins 1shot out of stealth some r9rr +10 arcanes quite often, and as there is no AA class with a skill similar to deaden nerves, there really isn't much they can do about it.

Regenbogen - Lost City

bramble...f:hehe

Azura - Lost City

Yeah, sins are not op, but they aren't weak either. Those who say sins are weak just haven't seen someone playing a sin well then.

Joe - Momaganon wrote: »

I like sins that don't stealth, cuz stealth is lame. I never said that sins are sooo weak, I just said that they are not the top end of all classes 1on1 wise when it comes to chances and playability. Barbs, Seeker, Wizards and Clerics e.g. got way more advantages then a sin, thats all I'm saying thus amking sind everything else then OP.

Clerics having more advantages than a sin? You must be trolling.

Unholly - Lothranis

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

What happened to your full +12 refines with +10-11 ornies? Silly.

i was thinking of 1v1s i had with Ela before i got my +12, have not really 1v1ed much since then.

Joe - Momaganon wrote: »

Thats by far not all a Barb can do against a sin. A Barb can debuff, purge, ofc Arma, has solid shield, invoke, cornered beast, bestial Onslaught (tho I only consider demon Barbs real threats, the skills are way stronger, who cares about a lil more HP and phys def), Blood Bath and more of that.

Tho I am aps skilled to farm stuff and such I do have a advantage or 2 from that even without using fists. Higher Crit, more evasion, way higher Accuracy especially when using blood bath and ofc demon sparked 2.22 with the r9 axe for "axe"mple xD trust me, you don't need arma if you know what you're doing. Being able to push up chi with decent fists isn't that bad either.

Purge:
Don't quote me on this but i'm pretty sure that a sins 2 most important self buffs: tidal and deaden nerves are non purgeable. That leaves 5 things you can purge: wolf emblem, BP(lol),sparks,powerdash and CoTD. Wolf for a sage sin is going to be back up before you know it.CoTD takes 2 seconds to rebuff. i highly doubt that a barb would go human form to purge a sin when they spark,Power dash because the purge will have a 20% at best of succeeding (not considering tidal).
Seeing as you are talking self buffed what would you purge off a sin then?

Debuffs: are going to have their reliability lowered by tidal protection

Self buff (offensive skill): ie. Bestial Onslaught yes 35% crit is nice but stringing together a combo of attacks with this is going to be hard due to an assassins ability to crowd control you in to the next century.

Assassin's may not be considered the almighty rulers of 1v1s that they used to be. But there are many other ways of considering a class as OP. b:surrender

VKnightV - Lost City wrote: »

i do not see OMG one hit skill as joe said

when he said One hit skill i presume he meant armageddon, i presume at full +12 that is going to be their highest hitting skill.

Unholly - Lothranis

Azura - Lost City wrote: »

Clerics having more advantages than a sin? You must be trolling.

Once they have the survivability of +12 jades and presuming we are talking skilled players i don't see why.
Clerics kill set up > Assassins
That's before factoring in Purify spell

Eoria - Harshlands

Yeah, I just read the first page, not gonna bother with the rest.

1. Barbs/seekers/BMs are counters to a sin to an extent primarily due to their armor and some of their skills. Psys are as well to an extent, but this is usually dependent on how good the psy is and how good the sin is. This is why you have no problem with them as a barb.

2. DPH sins basically massacre any LA/AA that isn't a cleric (this is primarily due to DPH sins not outputting enough damage fast enough to break a mana charmed Plume Shell immediately + chaining other cleric shields and pots/genie). And for clerics, DPS sins will massacre them.

3. Majority of sins are dumb as bricks and have +12 wep with +5 armor. So they two-shots due to Deaden. However, most get around this by literally only coming out of stealth to kill someone if they have everything off CD including IGs and so long as there's not anyone that can pop them out of stealth with a pot around (or that pot's already been used and is in CD).

4. Sins have access to every CC in the game. Most of them last way too long, can be easily chained, and they also have skills that basically just allow them to **** out chi to keep up an eternal stunlock. Add to this that they can also use Occult Ice on their genie. If you cannot stunlock someone on a sin with just a little bit of practice of knowing which skill is which and timing, you should probably uninstall. b:surrender

5. Two words: Tidal Protection. Or primarily that it lasts too long and has too high of a chance of blocking things, especially as sage. I also don't think it should be able to block certain things like purge or mystic knockback, but that's whatevs.

This is why sins are OP. ty and get out.

VKnightV - Lost City

1st sign of someone who dont know anything

in a 1vs1 in pvp you cant use bramble and also it killedd the sin not you.

tho its a skill it did not prove you can kill that sin at all.

again pve player acting as he knows wtf he talking about when he dont know bramble only work in tw nw duel pve.

learn to use it less as its useless in pk

XSonOfCircex - Sanctuary

FaceRolI - Sanctuary wrote: »

-rainbows are pretty and are made of candy
-water is clear
-rainbows are colored
-therefore pineapples are delicious

yea countered! \o/

I approve of this line of reasoning.

Zsw - Dreamweaver

Nah, sins are not that OP. I mean out of all the classes out there, sins have the second lowest if not the lowest min attack - max attack range. The only way we make up for this is chill of the deep, so it's balanced rather than OP.

The only reason we survive long in mass pvp at all is because of tidal protection and deaden nerve. With tidal protection up, we resist half of the control skills thrown onto us, so it's very hard to lock us down. In return, we're light armor, so our base defense sucks, which means if we get caught with tidal down and our genie on cooldown, we're screwed. However, now that arcanes got purify spell ontop of their superior defenses, the only thing that tidal protection is still better at is being able to resist purges.

Barb, BM and Seeker have far better survival ratings than sins do. Sins are the only melee class that use light armor.

Stealth is really not that op. There is no way you're getting 1 shot with pdef charm up, and a sin in stealth is as good as a sin in safezone really. You contribute nothing to the fight while hiding.

Sins aren't weak, but we're definitely not op.

geestring

i dont know why sins are a problem........other classes are stronger and have some of the same skills as sins why dont ppl QQ about archers stealth and leaps, barbs op deaden and damage stack, psy troll freeze skill that bypasses ad/ig and so on

VKnightV - Lost City

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Nah, sins are not that OP. I mean out of all the classes out there, sins have the second lowest if not the lowest min attack - max attack range. The only way we make up for this is chill of the deep, so it's balanced rather than OP.

The only reason we survive long in mass pvp at all is because of tidal protection and deaden nerve. With tidal protection up, we resist half of the control skills thrown onto us, so it's very hard to lock us down. In return, we're light armor, so our base defense sucks, which means if we get caught with tidal down and our genie on cooldown, we're screwed. However, now that arcanes got purify spell ontop of their superior defenses, the only thing that tidal protection is still better at is being able to resist purges.

Barb, BM and Seeker have far better survival ratings than sins do. Sins are the only melee class that use light armor.

Stealth is really not that op. There is no way you're getting 1 shot with pdef charm up, and a sin in stealth is as good as a sin in safezone really. You contribute nothing to the fight while hiding.

Sins aren't weak, but we're definitely not op.

did u see bait vid vs that barb.... if you dont have the best gear dont talk cos seem ur post is bias.

i dont see sin weak at all.... he did not even use stealth..... could spark in less then a min.... weak your kidding right

Zsw - Dreamweaver

VKnightV - Lost City wrote: »

did u see bait vid vs that barb.... if you dont have the best gear dont talk cos seem ur post is bias.

i dont see sin weak at all.... he did not even use stealth..... could spark in less then a min.... weak your kidding right

I have played with the best gears before, and I am basing my opinion on full end game situations.

Yes I did see bait vs vid. Did you see how many check points bait had to go through before he could kill the barb?

Solid Shield, Invoke, Solid Shield again, then couldn't kill cause not enough DD power, then solid shield again, then ironguard, then solid shield again, then spark, then cornered beast, then .. you get the point.

Barbs are natural survivors. Sins survive by evading control and using the saying that a good offense is the best defense. But catch them out of their tidal protection and they're quite screwed, which is why sins are really careful to keep that buff up. Except in mass pvp, you can't control everyone.

Let me ask you something. Do you have the best gear in the game? Are you full r9rr +12 with josd? If you're making a comment on my gears, I'd expect that you already have the gears yourself.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I have played with the best gears before, and I am basing my opinion on full end game situations.

Yes I did see bait vs vid. Did you see how many check points bait had to go through before he could kill the barb?

Solid Shield, Invoke, Solid Shield again, then couldn't kill cause not enough DD power, then solid shield again, then ironguard, then solid shield again, then spark, then cornered beast, then .. you get the point.

Barbs are natural survivors. Sins survive by evading control and using the saying that a good offense is the best defense. But catch them out of their tidal protection and they're quite screwed, which is why sins are really careful to keep that buff up. Except in mass pvp, you can't control everyone.

Let me ask you something. Do you have the best gear in the game? Are you full r9rr +12 with josd? If you're making a comment on my gears, I'd expect that you already have the gears yourself.

Honestly, at this point, people should just stop paying attention to him. He spouts nothing but nonsense.

bitewarrior

A sin is a 1 shot for any class on the server if itself buff does not do the job ,by any and all the class.

On the other end a sin will never 1 shot any other class with same gear and shard and refine. All the other class received skills similar to sin and sin got nothing in return but QQ and cheap useless skills.

They are great in PvE for fast coins, like someone said sin has low HP he can actually kill himself with is own dagger or even 1 shot itself. A tank can afford loosing 5%hp on zerk, but for a sin it is like attaking himself.

Then you hear people QQ about shadow sin. Can you explain me why the hell he would stay unshadowed... to get kill. Sin used to be Op for only one good reason they all paid to get their dagger to +12 before anything else and basically hurt the class and got nurfed.

skaitavia

From what I read Joe, you seem to be listing scenarios where the sin does nothing while the other class in question does this fancy triple spark + debuff + massive hitting skill combo. Any skilled end-game player wouldn't allow their opponent to chain a combo that easily.

As many have stated here, end-game sins aren't weak, but they also aren't "the most OP ever" either. With the introduction of R9r2 and even more end-game gear, tides have changed and the balance of classes is better now. Each class has their weakness, and each class has their pro. Sins do well against LA and AA targets, while they struggle at defeating HA targets. That doesn't mean they are completely helpless when it comes to fighting those other classes. It's a matter of locking the opponent until the opponent either kill the sin, gets bored and calls it quits, or get their charm destroyed until they either die or run out of charms. The same goes for other classes, albeit some have more pros than cons.

I'm not the most OP-geared sin, nor am I a really skilled sin, but I am not an undergeared sin, and I know my limits when it comes to my class. It's also nice to see a new challenge every now and then.

Here are a few other videos where the sin is either equal geared or undergeared versus their opponents:

Self buff 1v1s:
Versus Seeker of equal gear/refines/shards: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpTKK7zKr74
Versus Cleric of better gear/refines/shards (who is also very anti-melee based if you see the gear at the start): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPCJxAR4UC8

You've already seen the 1v1 I've had with a cleric of best refines/shards.

You could look at Kyougu's videos if you want mass PvP of probably the most OP-geared sin on the game.


In the end each class has their pros and cons. Some might have more class advantages over others, but it really depends on how the player handles those advantages/disadvantages.

Adroit - Lost City

End game wiz vs sin is a very close fight, I'll add a fight or two in my next video.

bitewarrior

yes, some powder in the eye, but the matter is sin got nurfed while all other class got power house skills.

I guess that is why we barelly see any sin now a days an dthat no faction want them unless end gear to kill the squishy 3rd cast nirvana.

Anyway, I think this is the end as far as QQ . You guys just care of the QQ and mass players and not about your game. Those were fact not flash to the eye, reflect is just perfectly fine on a Psy that has purify. I just need to let him go throught in shadow and wait for the cleric.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

With r9rr +6 I can tank +10/12 R9rr daggers well enough, if they're +10 I can actually land a kill on a sin, if +12 it depends on how we both play with the fights lasting quite some time (due to sin's tidal+belief genie, making a lock hard to pull off - though with proper timing and belief prediction I did manage to take down an R9rr+10 with +12 R9 daggers a few days back). Sins are powerful, but not overpowered to the degree that they once were. I certainly wouldn't call them underpowered.

Just because they're no longer able to win from stealth with little issue doesn't mean they're not strong opponents.

Joe, your hard on for barbs is getting to the point where it could shatter diamonds I swear.

Kitkate - Dreamweaver

Venos ftw!f:hush