Evasion. should it be improved

Hannsel - Dreamweaver

i've been wondering about the usefulness of evasion stat and noticed its quite useless. it doesnt work vs casters, and meleers have a few skills that always hit. i think it should be made better but i wanted to hear opinions from other players

pros for improved evasion

1. takes advantage of high dex
2. allows use of the 1/3 of ornaments/shards that currently have no value
3. brings more variation in builds
4. more logical imo. currently meleers get high pdef (useful), casters get high mres (useful), la get high evasion (useless)

cons for improved evasion

1. would make ppl who upgraded current orns QQ if the evasion ones are 'better'
2. it would make casters QQ if they lose their 100% accuracy on magic
3. it may still wont save you from 1-shot

MistaBwanden - Sanctuary

Seeing as I have Evasion on my G16 vana top, I say yes!

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Sure, let's make physical defense reduce magic damage too! Hey, while we're at it let's make attack levels give 50 HP per level too!

seitori

Sorry, I said no... Evasion should only be based on physical based attacks alone (though it should include {some magic attacks} like the wizards wannabe meteor attack, since your character shoulda been able to see it coming at them, for a chance for an evasion)foxy alone

but otherwise it shouldn't have anything to do with any part of magic (attack or defense) casting's (I don't care how high 1s dex is, no one can dodge a lightning bolt, let alone all the hail in a hail storm...f:moneyf:poo

Sharki - Dreamweaver

Evasion effects magic accuracy? Maybe. Then again, why can't we manually dodge attacks? Why does it have to be stst-based? But if it's insisted on, I don't think I have an option there. Maybe the poll should give more options. I do think that evasion amount shouldn't vary between classes though. Instead, give evasion armor shards a boost.

Though I also think that dagger damage should also be str-based. And that bows shouldn't be heavily dependent on any stat, as arrows rely on stored energy from the pulled string for force, dex(aiming/accuracy) should only determine accuracy and crit of the bow. Also, I don't think that any armor set needs dex or magic to use, that just makes no sense.

In fact, PWI's whole stat/equipment system is flawed. Hell, the whole game is.

...what was this thread about again...?

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

They've already fixed evasion. It's called Focus Mind / Tidal Protection. It lets players dodge magic attacks and status effects as long as the player happens to be a sin. Of course this good evasion is on top of the bad evasion evasion that the other classes have to use.

Alsiadorra - Sanctuary

In other words, "roll a sin".

Angel_Spawn - Sanctuary

Alsiadorra - Sanctuary wrote: »

In other words, "roll a sin".

Pretty much b:chuckle

Lucrecia - Momaganon

Nah wouldnt make sense imo. I mean we are actually casting a spell ON the target while melees are just hitting somewhere where the target stands. And since most casters already have proplems fighting dex based classes i think this would go too out balanced.

However, I do agree giving evasion some more sense like actually 10 percent of evasion is added to rage damage or making evasion rate always added to accuraty or something like that. Would make archers wings of protection finally usefull. b:chuckle

Regenbogen - Lost City

Lucrecia - Momaganon wrote: »

Nah wouldnt make sense imo. I mean we are actually casting a spell ON the target while melees are just hitting somewhere where the target stands. And since most casters already have proplems fighting dex based classes i think this would go too out balanced.

lies!
its not hard avoiding to get 1shoted from stealth...just get 100deflv and 20k pdef...
its not like they always get a chance to stun you first and use their high dps while you are rendered unable to do a thing...

CapnK - Sanctuary

Considering that r999 sins and archers with their +100 bonus to dex are already mostly unhittable by barbs and bms, you want to make them unhittable by all caster classes also? No thank you.

HrunsPanda - Archosaur

sins have a lot of it so it should not be improvedb:laugh

Zsw - Dreamweaver

How would it be improved? Can't really think of any way that would make it work. I mean I guess you can have magic accuracy based off magic points. Then magic accuracy would be like 10k as well and would pretty much almost never miss either.

Hannsel - Dreamweaver

Zsw - Dreamweaver wrote: »

How would it be improved? Can't really think of any way that would make it work. I mean I guess you can have magic accuracy based off magic points. Then magic accuracy would be like 10k as well and would pretty much almost never miss either.

the mechanics of sins focused mind could be extended to the 'regular' evasion other classes have e.g. 1k eva=10% miss rate, 5k eva = 40% etc

Decus - Dreamweaver

CapnK - Sanctuary wrote: »

Considering that r999 sins and archers with their +100 bonus to dex are already mostly unhittable by barbs and bms, you want to make them unhittable by all caster classes also? No thank you.

Gosh I wish that was true without Condor

Jarkhen - Archosaur

Decus - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Gosh I wish that was true without Condor

That moment when you pop Condor then get slaughtered by Smack.

DAT FEEL

Toliman - Raging Tide

Where is option to remove interruption of spells ?

Pros: magic classes will be able to cast spells without interruption.

Cons: melee classes can start to understand, what was interruption of spells.

Edit:

For those, who don't understand: melee do n attacks per second with ability to interrupt spell of magic enemy for each hit.
Caster can cast 1 spell for few seconds, which can be interrupted and wasted.

Who has more disadvantage: caster or melee ?

deadwieght

evasion works just fine as it is. if u think it does not, ask PWI to remove the 50% accuracy off all rings and see how you do.

OIdpop - Heavens Tear

yep evasion sucks in this game,it sucks bad.

Regenbogen - Lost City

is this thread about: "QQ why do i get 1shotted by magic classes when wearing lionheart neck+belt for interval"?

sure you can have magic evasion but caster get a magical shield then, that turns the attacker into fluffy little creatures...

VKnightV - Lost City

so the dex classes dont like there insane crith dph damage from dex they also want to have good evesion on top of it.

give me a break and before u want actual evesion maybe we should dump some real str stats on ur daggs and bows to that of rest of melee players.


who whas the moron to let dex player get insane dex stats to boost there dph and crith rate at same time.


dex stats is broken alredy as it is why woudl we want to boost ur evesion on top of it.


ok then ill also put my foot down um dream and say let barb vit stats also add damage
cos hej if u can dream so can i.

and barb really need the boost from say vit.


stop dreaming and enjoy ur broken dex

VKnightV - Lost City

Regenbogen - Lost City wrote: »

is this thread about: "QQ why do i get 1shotted by magic classes when wearing lionheart neck+belt for interval"?

sure you can have magic evasion but caster get a magical shield then, that turns the attacker into fluffy little creatures...

and barb vit add extra damage the more vitality we add on it

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

As much as i hate all the advantages a caster/magic class has in nw/tw, I had to vote no.

There is already plenty of things in this game that helps 'protect' others from magical based attacks. (I.e Altar marrow magical, def levels, the various shields of a barb/sin, Magic shell (The cleric skill that boosts magic def.) not to mention the ones I probably forgot. A lot of magic classes still hit real hard too through all this, that coupled with their element of suprise I can see why you would want something like this to help melee get near them.

While this isnt totally farfetched to think that some... nice magic user might come up with a way for magic attacks to miss melee ppl, it also wouldn't be too farfetched to think that other magic users might then find a way through this, and then the cycle would just continue in a never ending cycle. (this isn't so much of an issue if the deaths were... like real life, die 1 time and your out, but knock on wood it isn't.) Your idea while it sounds nice on paper, I can't see it ever coming to fruition.

HrunsPanda - Archosaur

VKnightV - Lost City wrote: »

who whas the moron to let dex player get insane dex stats to boost there dph and crith rate at same time.

dex stats is broken alredy as it is why woudl we want to boost ur evesion on top of it.

Agree

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Slivaf - Dreamweaver wrote: »

As much as i hate all the advantages a caster/magic class has in nw/tw, I had to vote no.

There is already plenty of things in this game that helps 'protect' others from magical based attacks. (I.e Altar marrow magical, def levels, the various shields of a barb/sin, Magic shell (The cleric skill that boosts magic def.) not to mention the ones I probably forgot. A lot of magic classes still hit real hard too through all this, that coupled with their element of suprise I can see why you would want something like this to help melee get near them.

It's mostly a problem for archers. Sins were built as an evasion-based class with the poor performance of evasion already known. That's why sins were given another (much more effective) layer of evasion on top of the existing evasion.

Archers are also supposed to base their defense on evasion as well which is why they have an evasion buff. The problem is that normal evasion that non-sins use turns out to be very bad. This is why Archers have the reputation of having the worst defense in the game.

If they were to make evasion work on magic attacks I think they'd also have to switch accuracy up. Maybe for magic classes accuracy would come from having magic and for melee classes it would come from strength.

The problems with evasion though run far deeper than that...
-gear: no evasion based cube-neck, no evasion on r999 belt, no rings that refine evasion
-buffs: how is a +40% evasion buff supposed to compete against a +180% pdef buff? how is it supposed to compete against +300% accuracy?
-skills: why are there so many attacks that ignore evasion? Where are the attacks that ignore pdef and ignore mres?

darknessofmy

sin and archer are dam op at end game.

Fissile - Archosaur

QQ stupid casters never miss when they attack. b:cry


And how often do you miss when you hit them back I wonder?

opkossy

Fissile - Archosaur wrote: »

QQ stupid casters never miss when they attack. b:cry


And how often do you miss when you hit them back I wonder?

More often than they miss (because they don't miss).

The amount of times I've missed a killing blow on a 300ish evasion caster on any of my phys characters that all have well above 4k accuracy can be depressing at times. b:sad

Especially when I'm doing a damage test to see something, get the setup all nice and good and hit whatever damage skill I'm using to see "Miss" float up above their heads... and then we both get to laugh at how stupid it is that that's even a possibility.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

It's mostly a problem for archers. Sins were built as an evasion-based class with the poor performance of evasion already known. That's why sins were given another (much more effective) layer of evasion on top of the existing evasion.

Archers are also supposed to base their defense on evasion as well which is why they have an evasion buff. The problem is that normal evasion that non-sins use turns out to be very bad. This is why Archers have the reputation of having the worst defense in the game.

If they were to make evasion work on magic attacks I think they'd also have to switch accuracy up. Maybe for magic classes accuracy would come from having magic and for melee classes it would come from strength.

The problems with evasion though run far deeper than that...
-gear: no evasion based cube-neck, no evasion on r999 belt, no rings that refine evasion
-buffs: how is a +40% evasion buff supposed to compete against a +180% pdef buff? how is it supposed to compete against +300% accuracy?
-skills: why are there so many attacks that ignore evasion? Where are the attacks that ignore pdef and ignore mres?

To be honest i have to disagree with you about the fact that something like this being a problem mainly for archers, they can at least fight back as long as they arent a one shot, (/possibly trying to kill someone else) melee classes dont have that luxury. (not even marrow is a real viable way for early end game bms to survive... but aside from bms the other classes do have a somewhat decent way of getting to magic classes)

Wings of grace is actually quite a nice shield for archers, and so is that winged shell skill.Neither of which has a real nasty side effect that goes along with it. (Take a look at the bm's marrows even at demon, the difference can easily help or **** them over literally, that with the fact that bms HAVe to get close... to even launch a possible counter attack, I say advantage so goes to every other class in game including the other 'true' melee classes'. (barbs have thier shields, sins their stealth, focused mind, deaden nerces, etc, seekers their def level + ranged attacks. Then you have all the other classes that have plenty of ways to kill others before... weaker bms even come close to them. (btw i have 10k magic res in magic marrow demon.. fully buffed.)

Other than that I agee with you it would definitely benefit the archers the most if something like this was implemented.

XSonOfCircex - Sanctuary

Okay as a wizard I'm obviously a little biased, but I'm going to be inclined to agree with the people who pointed out the brokenness of dex. Dex based toons at end game can easily get up to 50% crit, if not significantly higher. That's on top of high base damage. While there is a non-zero chance of you missing on a caster, the number of times per NW/TW/Whatever I see someone miss on me is negligible (and it's usually some <tt90 person who I can turn around and one shot, rather than some r9r3 archer/sin who that would possibly make a difference against). While I'm sure it's annoying to get off your nearly instant cast and have it miss, or your auto attack, it's also very annoying to be 90% of the way through channeling a BIDS that would kill 6 people or a Mountain's Seize that would kill 3 or 4 people and stun the survivors and get hit by a stun/seal/whatever else (or for that matter just be hit by something that stops the casting, even without a seal/sleep/stun add)

I'm not suggesting that this be changed, I think it's an important check on the damage of longer channeling caster skills. However, asking for further methods of survival based on dex is excessive since it would stack with sins already high propensity to avoid incoming damage.

Fissile - Archosaur

Spying on a nearby archer I see his accuracy is 11,248. My evasion is 384 (with 28 dex). That results in the following:

Evade: 1.67%
Hit: 98.33%

Swapping in Emperor for Love Up and Down results in an increase in hit chance by 0.13 percentage points (1 in 60 shots miss).

Even with only 4000 accuracy you still have a >96% chance to hit (1 in 25 shots miss). When you are buffed with focused mind casters "miss" 7 times as often (8 times as often with sage focused mind).

Archers may have a legitimate gripe given they have no really effective self-buffs against magic. I wouldn't be opposed to Blessing of the Condor having a focused mind-like buff for the duration as well.