Pan Gu kills a puppy everytime a BM...

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  • Morridune - Raging Tide
    Morridune - Raging Tide Posts: 239 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Saethos - Raging Tide wrote: »
    On the discussion of marrows, if I'm self buff only and use phys marrow as a sage, I have 27 magic defense. Yeah, not happening.

    with a decent str genie and phys marrow and balance= 10-12s of lol's vs and elemental damage and as ur stun immune not so hard to switch bk to m.marrow b4 it drops
  • ladyyyy
    ladyyyy Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    I don't know if it's worth killin puppies over, but I laugh a little every time I see a R9+ BM that doesn't have or use any fist/claw or aps DD on bosses. one would think that with all the coin it cost to get R9+, one might afford to get some other gears to suppliment the dps. ;)

    and LOL's at all the posts that knock bm's for having better fists than axes. Unless you are in pvp or aoe grinding (who does that anymore??) Fist is more often than not greater DPS than axes of equal grade / refine.

    I was an pure axe bm from lvl 1 - 90 I have no desire to go back to the days before bosses died in 1 HF. (remembers speding 4+ hours in TT 2-x)

    I <3 all opinions on Marrows. Truth is, live and learn, or in this case, Die and Learn. I don't think there is a mob/instance in this game that I can't do w/ one marrow or the other up at all times. As far as PvP Goes, Defence Charms are where it's at! even if you get caught w/ the wrong marrow up, a well used defence charm should save you from at least one hit... but prolly not two. b:laugh
  • Walpurga - Dreamweaver
    Walpurga - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,028 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Because your axes are why the squad didn't just pick a sin that will outdamage you in APS anyways
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  • Jaabg - Sanctuary
    Jaabg - Sanctuary Posts: 2,256 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    ladyyyy wrote: »
    I don't know if it's worth killin puppies over, but I laugh a little every time I see a R9+ BM that doesn't have or use any fist/claw or aps DD on bosses. one would think that with all the coin it cost to get R9+, one might afford to get some other gears to suppliment the dps. ;)

    and LOL's at all the posts that knock bm's for having better fists than axes.

    Tanking seat boss in claws = harsh, can be done, just requires a bigger hp pool than usual.

    Once you get dervish, the axe damage is high enough to rival g15 and below claws. Chances are if the bm has dervish, the squad is decent, that it wouldn't need a claw/fist on the bm.

    That being said, claws cost a fair bit to. Not surprising that people don't have it, not all r9 people are on the same field.
  • Zanryu - Dreamweaver
    Zanryu - Dreamweaver Posts: 7,261 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Tanking seat boss in claws = harsh, can be done, just requires a bigger hp pool than usual.

    Once you get dervish, the axe damage is high enough to rival g15 and below claws. Chances are if the bm has dervish, the squad is decent, that it wouldn't need a claw/fist on the bm.

    That being said, claws cost a fair bit to. Not surprising that people don't have it, not all r9 people are on the same field.

    I'm on the low field, creepin' through the bushes, planning my next attack. I'm an R9 axe sin get at me Jaabg.
  • Jaabg - Sanctuary
    Jaabg - Sanctuary Posts: 2,256 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    I'm on the low field, creepin' through the bushes, planning my next attack. I'm an R9 axe sin get at me Jaabg.

    *Takes out a feather brush b:dirty*
  • Zanryu - Dreamweaver
    Zanryu - Dreamweaver Posts: 7,261 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    I'm also a barb now apparently. I just got kicked from BH SoT for pulling all the mobs to the gate, two people died because they attacked before I could aoe poison frogs so I got kicked. The barb couldn't handle a little bit of aggro, and he got all butthurt b:laugh

    Oh lawdy.
  • Sakubatou - Sanctuary
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary Posts: 4,001 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    ladyyyy wrote: »
    and LOL's at all the posts that knock bm's for having better fists than axes. Unless you are in pvp or aoe grinding (who does that anymore??) Fist is more often than not greater DPS than axes of equal grade / refine.

    I agree with laughing at any expectation for a BM to have higher refined axes than fists. Sure for PvP both are important but if you plan on farming your gear fist refines > Axe refines. Walpurga might point out that we're there for our HF... that can be done with lvl 1 axes. We're mainly there for HF, Bell, and dps. If you plan on constantly HFing you might want aps and fists to keep up your chi. If you don't want to HF multiple times on one boss then you may want to build chi fast while contributing with huge dps.

    When G16 was released theychanged the refine rate difference between claws and daggers so they now refine similar. So G16/r9t3 shrunk much of the dps difference between sins and BMs.

    Sorry, R9t3 axes and G16 claws with similar refines do not have similar dps. You're still looking at almost triple the difference while sparked and then much more than that after the axe BMs spark dies and the claw BM stays triple sparked.

    This is one of my issues in pvp is Dervish need to have higher than a 50% GoF proc rate to keep up with the dps of claws. I know, spike damage and zerk crits are awesome but if I can do more damage in the same amount of time with smaller, faster hits it becomes a valid option. Yet people still write off claws. The main issue being aps gears defenses, not claws damage output. Just have to know when you can switch to aps gear during pk and is it worth the hassle.
    Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory
  • Kniraven - Lost City
    Kniraven - Lost City Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I agree with laughing at any expectation for a BM to have higher refined axes than fists. Sure for PvP both are important but if you plan on farming your gear fist refines > Axe refines. Walpurga might point out that we're there for our HF... that can be done with lvl 1 axes. We're mainly there for HF, Bell, and dps. If you plan on constantly HFing you might want aps and fists to keep up your chi. If you don't want to HF multiple times on one boss then you may want to build chi fast while contributing with huge dps.

    When G16 was released theychanged the refine rate difference between claws and daggers so they now refine similar. So G16/r9t3 shrunk much of the dps difference between sins and BMs.

    Sorry, R9t3 axes and G16 claws with similar refines do not have similar dps. You're still looking at almost triple the difference while sparked and then much more than that after the axe BMs spark dies and the claw BM stays triple sparked.

    This is one of my issues in pvp is Dervish need to have higher than a 50% GoF proc rate to keep up with the dps of claws. I know, spike damage and zerk crits are awesome but if I can do more damage in the same amount of time with smaller, faster hits it becomes a valid option. Yet people still write off claws. The main issue being aps gears defenses, not claws damage output. Just have to know when you can switch to aps gear during pk and is it worth the hassle.
    Actually the main issue is that aps is nolonger efficient in pvp due to morai skills and purify spell, inferior defenses is secondary;

    And if you're speaking from a pve perspective, needing anything greater than g15 for survivability is laughable...
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Zanryu - Dreamweaver
    Zanryu - Dreamweaver Posts: 7,261 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »
    Actually the main issue is that aps is nolonger efficient in pvp due to morai skills and purify spell, inferior defenses is secondary;

    And if you're speaking from a pve perspective, needing anything greater than g15 for survivability is laughable...

    It's still stronger than axe spam against HA targets, the only problem is that while you have higher damage on them they'll have higher damage on you. Even HA is squishy to R9r3.
  • Kniraven - Lost City
    Kniraven - Lost City Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    It's still stronger than axe spam against HA targets, the only problem is that while you have higher damage on them they'll have higher damage on you. Even HA is squishy to R9r3.

    I'm not sure i totally agree there.
    I think that the best aps damage build possible would still be inferior at taking out HAs as compared to the best axe build attacking the same target.

    This would be due to inferior attack levels + not having a weapon proc (zerk).

    Edit: to be clear, I'd agree with you if the best fists in the game even compared moderately to the best axes, but they don't :/
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Jaabg - Sanctuary
    Jaabg - Sanctuary Posts: 2,256 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »
    Actually the main issue is that aps is nolonger efficient in pvp due to morai skills and purify spell, inferior defenses is secondary;

    And if you're speaking from a pve perspective, needing anything greater than g15 for survivability is laughable...

    Saku always catches me in claws in nw, even if the target is a caster, 3rd cast, purify, there is enough time to aps down most of them. There are only a few that are refined high and or sharded well. Most still have 6~10k hp, which is easy kill.

    Even if the other person is not r9 3rd cast caster, i kill people far quicker with claws, archers die quick from stun lock (most need to learn), barbs die quick once i purge them (assuming they are not 50k+ barbs), same applies for other classes. *edit* i see your point, but try it out, have high refined claws/fists, and most barbs will fall to you, some will die only when purged. Really high hp ones require luck with axes and can not be done +10 claws, +12 possible i presume, and lvl 103.

    The above reason comes from in aps gear i am at 14k hp, 2.5 base, i hit 1~2k on targets. I stun most people for 4~8 seconds. That is 8k~16k damage, most users die because their hp pool is not that high.

    PVE, i used to tank warsong, lunar bosses, with 6.6k hp just fine with g16 claws, i could never do that with g15 claws, especially considering the gear that came out. Higher dps = higher bp returns, i fail to see why having more dps with g16 be laughable?

    The above points may not suit your playing style, but doesn't make them less valid as an option.
  • Zanryu - Dreamweaver
    Zanryu - Dreamweaver Posts: 7,261 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »
    I'm not sure i totally agree there.
    I think that the best aps damage build possible would still be inferior at taking out HAs as compared to the best axe build attacking the same target.

    This would be due to inferior attack levels + not having a weapon proc (zerk).

    Edit: to be clear, I'd agree with you if the best fists in the game even compared moderately to the best axes, but they don't :/

    You have better sustained dps, those zerk crits are sexy as hell but those claws will shred through the armor that the person is wearing. I don't remember what +10s hit me for, but +12s can hit me for about 1k unsparked in my R9r3 self buffed with P marrow. that's a pretty fair amount of Pdef. This becomes an absurd amount of damage while triple sparked, which axes simply will not match. HF will only allow for 3 skills average, assuming you get them all off. They'll hurt, but I'm thinking the triple spark is going to do more to the target than HFed skill spam will.

    At least that's how it's seemed to work out for me.
  • Kniraven - Lost City
    Kniraven - Lost City Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Saku always catches me in claws in nw, even if the target is a caster, 3rd cast, purify, there is enough time to aps down most of them. There are only a few that are refined high and or sharded well. Most still have 6~10k hp, which is easy kill.

    Even if the other person is not r9 3rd cast caster, i kill people far quicker with claws, archers die quick from stun lock (most need to learn), barbs die quick once i purge them (assuming they are not 50k+ barbs), same applies for other classes. *edit* i see your point, but try it out, have high refined claws/fists, and most barbs will fall to you, some will die only when purged. Really high hp ones require luck with axes and can not be done +10 claws, +12 possible i presume, and lvl 103.

    The above reason comes from in aps gear i am at 14k hp, 2.5 base, i hit 1~2k on targets. I stun most people for 4~8 seconds. That is 8k~16k damage, most users die because their hp pool is not that high.

    PVE, i used to tank warsong, lunar bosses, with 6.6k hp just fine with g16 claws, i could never do that with g15 claws, especially considering the gear that came out. Higher dps = higher bp returns, i fail to see why having more dps with g16 be laughable?

    The above points may not suit your playing style, but doesn't make them less valid as an option.


    The casters you mention are in inferior gear to you, and would die in one or two shots from axes.
    I have 2 sets of gear, everything +10 including ornaments. One is full r9rr, the other i am 4.0 unsparked with g16 fists.

    G16nv fists maybe superior to g16nv axes at taking down a barb, but not to +60 or so atk lvl axes that have GoF.

    Edit: i was saying the need for full g16 armor in pve was laughable, not a better weapon. Sorry if the way i worded that was unclear


    And @ Zanryu, assassins with g16 nv daggers +10 barely hit me above 1k, if even that, when in aps gear unsparked...
    I'll post a vid if you like.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Saethos - Raging Tide
    Saethos - Raging Tide Posts: 1,239 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Well this escalated quickly.
    It is said that apple pie is best served Al La Mode, so if you are the pie, consider me your ice cream.
  • Zanryu - Dreamweaver
    Zanryu - Dreamweaver Posts: 7,261 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »
    The casters you mention are in inferior gear to you, and would die in one or two shots from axes.
    I have 2 sets of gear, everything +10 including ornaments. One is full r9rr, the other i am 4.0 unsparked with g16 fists.

    G16nv fists maybe superior to g16nv axes at taking down a barb, but not to +60 or so atk lvl axes that have GoF.

    Edit: i was saying the need for full g16 armor in pve was laughable, not a better weapon. Sorry if the way i worded that was unclear


    And @ Zanryu, assassins with g16 nv daggers +10 barely hit me above 1k, if even that, when in aps gear unsparked...
    I'll post a vid if you like.

    Notice that I said +12
  • Kniraven - Lost City
    Kniraven - Lost City Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Notice that I said +12

    I'll try to find someone on my server who +12'd their fists and get back to you. I'm very doubtful though...
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Zanryu - Dreamweaver
    Zanryu - Dreamweaver Posts: 7,261 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »
    I'll try to find someone on my server who +12'd their fists and get back to you. I'm very doubtful though...

    Could be Mired that does that much, I can't recall because, well.. I'm tired as hell and it's been ages since I fought him. But +12 packs some serious damage lemme tell ya.
  • Kittysama - Raging Tide_1432680721
    Kittysama - Raging Tide_1432680721 Posts: 651 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    ...BM decides to spark-APS instead of HFing when having 2 sins and 3 seekers in 90+ squad for BH79. Because "tbh when I spark I get 3 aps so it's more useful." And this BM couldn't take aggro from Kitty's 2.22 APS H&T+5 sin when having Deicide.f:sweat
    If you wonder why no cleric, we didn't find one and Kitty was pretty sure her 94 sin could tank the dmg from bosses if they're killed in couple sparks so we took another sin to make kill faster.

    EDIT: INB4SweetieBotscreamsNECROOOOOf:scared
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Final ragequit on 21/02/2014 'cause ARC. Back on 15/04/2014, RL was bored.
    Ten Paths of Kittyness(old mains when deleted): Kittysama 100(100) Sage HA-Venomancer |Aivina 100(101) Sage (ex-Zerk) Str. Seeker | Kittytart 90(101) Demon All path Zerk BM | KittyFishie 92(101) Demon APS/DPH Zerk Assassin | Haroin 100(100) Demon Vit. Zerk Barbarian | Elfborn 82(100) Demon Cleric | Pessimiste 85(100) Sage Wizard | PalavaEnkeli 87(100) Demon Fist/APS-Archer | VerenVanki 85(100) Demon Mystic | MerenPeto 85(100) Sage Psychic
    Current mains: Old psy and 19 new/recreated mains(avg. level 82)
  • ShadowsFlame - Raging Tide
    ShadowsFlame - Raging Tide Posts: 152 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Kittysama - Raging Tide wrote: »
    ...BM decides to spark-APS instead of HFing when having 2 sins and 3 seekers in 90+ squad for BH79. Because "tbh when I spark I get 3 aps so it's more useful." And this BM couldn't take aggro from Kitty's 2.22 APS H&T+5 sin when having Deicide.f:sweat
    If you wonder why no cleric, we didn't find one and Kitty was pretty sure her 94 sin could tank the dmg from bosses if they're killed in couple sparks so we took another sin to make kill faster.

    EDIT: INB4SweetieBotscreamsNECROOOOOf:scared

    Im sure pan gu kills a puppy and a baby every time u speak in 3rd person too...
    current pwcalc.com/ecccbccc47400382
    aiming pwcalc.com/5ac2ca79fcef8da4
    b:bye
  • ovenusarmanio
    ovenusarmanio Posts: 6,695 Community Moderator
    edited June 2013
    closed for necro

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