Benefits of demon veno?

PhantomThief - Archosaur

I know the demon fox form speed boost is sexy , as is the immunity to movement effects on summer sprint, and demon amp is pretty spiffy too. Are there any other overt benefits to going demon veno?

I am 100% resolved to go demon on my veno, my other characters are a sage cleric,(soon to be) sage psy, (soon to be)sage mystic and this sin, who is also sage. I need a demonXD

Desdi - Sanctuary

You can check the skills on Ecatomb.com yourself or the Useful Venomancer Links sticky here (go to the Demon vs Sage discussion links).
There is a lot of information and a lot of talks about the two paths there.

PhantomThief - Archosaur

Desdi - Sanctuary wrote: »

You can check the skills on Ecatomb.com yourself or the Useful Venomancer Links sticky here (go to the Demon vs Sage discussion links).
There is a lot of information and a lot of talks about the two paths there.

I know about ecatomb and most of the differences between the demon and sage version of of the original six classes by memory(been playing since 2006)XD.

I however, haven't had a max level veno in that time, so i am asking for input from demon/sage venos that they have gathered from personal experience. I find personal experience > raw data, most of the time anyway.b:thanks

Mayfly - Dreamweaver

The two cultivations are pretty balanced for venomancer. Whichever way you go there will be a few things you'd rather have from the other. (Sage amp does more damage increase over the short term, demon over the long term; sage leech has a guaranteed HP return, demon has a greater HP return on average, just to name a few.)

I /will/ say that the chi gain from the new foxform for sage is /very/ nice, and I don't think demon's incoming crit rate reduction makes up for it.

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

remember sage amp on a boss will prolly kill it, in endgame pve, before the amp goes away

sage purge aoe--nuff said forti IG into NW pit aoe purge nova while they are stunned/HF'd

l0l

Azura - Lost City

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

remember sage amp on a boss will prolly kill it, in endgame pve, before the amp goes away

sage purge aoe--nuff said forti IG into NW pit aoe purge nova while they are stunned/HF'd

l0l

You know, sage amplify is only "better" by 5%. Sage amplifies by 30%, demon by 25%. I've always thought that wasn't a big difference, but the nirvana farmers (RIP) always said: "sage better, it more damage!" Because Nv bosses could be killed in a few seconds.

Now, no one does nirvana. All there is to pve now is TT, Lunar, Warsong, GV, and PV (I hope I didn't miss anything). About PV I don't know anything, but all the other instances (except for GV) have bosses that are not killable in a few seconds like in Nv. Demon version instead of amplifying 5% more, it last 6 seconds more. Demon amp last 6 seconds more than sage one. So, outside of nirvana, both amps are pretty much the same.

However for pvp, I think demon amp is much better than sage because you have more time to do combos while your target has amplify on. In fact, if you chain amp, there will be only 4 seconds when a target won't have amplify on.

Now about purge. The aoe effect is very nice. When I was sage, I paid a lot of sage purge. At that time it was really hard for me to afford it, it left me w.o any coins. But, I did it cause it was a good skill. Nevertheless, I later got dissapointed with it. The aoe of 5m is really short. In my screen a 5 m aoe is like one inch. That close the targets need to be from the center. When you can purge many ppl at the same time is great, but most of the times you may need to debuff an important target instead of a bunch of noobs. I personally find demon purge much better because of its reduced cooldown (5 seconds). If someone resist you purge with a genie skill or a pot, your purge will be ready sooner before it can work.

One of the skills about demon venos that is definitly better than sage is parasitic nova. When it seals (95%) it also amps your target, they take 30% more damage. So, if you used amp before, and then you make someone go chaotic (parasitic's nova effect) you will be doing 55% more damage.

I experienced both paths of veno's cultivation, because 1st I was sage, then became a demon. Both paths are ok, but I personally think demon one is the best for its skills. There are 2 skills with which you always have laughs: fox form, cause it makes u very fast, and demon iroonwood because it makes anyone's defense=0. Always when I pvp, many times I prok armor break, and then some friend comes and does insane damage. I always ask him how much he did xD . Right now the effect of ironwood isn't very useful to me, expect if I use Arcane Antinomy, but later when pets get upgraded we will be able to use pets again in pk. Most pets have physical attacks, so it will be very useful, once again.

Desdi - Sanctuary

PhantomThief - Archosaur wrote: »

I know about ecatomb and most of the differences between the demon and sage version of of the original six classes by memory(been playing since 2006)XD.

I however, haven't had a max level veno in that time, so i am asking for input from demon/sage venos that they have gathered from personal experience. I find personal experience > raw data, most of the time anyway.b:thanks

Well the links I suggested aren't raw data but discussions b:surrender
Discussion 1
Discussion 2
Discussion 3

Anyhow, playstyle matters a lot when it comes to the paths too.
Sages get more chi than Demon (that does not mean Demons have chi problems but Sages have it easier) but Demons have shorter cooldowns on many skills (Noxious Gas, Purge, Lucky Scarab, Metabolic boost, Nature's Grace).

Demons, thanks to Summer Sprint, can get a free IG every 3 minutes (Summer Sprint + Feral concentration) and that allows you to use Apothecary pots for other things or another Fortify & IG combo.

There's also Frost Scarab; whilst Sages get an extra stun second in Lucky Scarab, Demon get a freeze effect on Frost Scarab (albeit costs a spark) so they can stunlock just as effectively.

Crush Vigor has a chance to give you a spark (and procs pretty often too) so you can easily use it to build up chi (either throw it on random targets in PvP or mobs/bosses).

Your basic skill, Venomous Scarab, also has a wood debuff with increases your own damage, Mystics damage and Barbarian damage (with this Poison Fang buff).

Last, Fox Wallop has a chance to make all of your attacks crit for 5 seconds, nice to force crit certain attacks (although the proc is a bit low so not very reliable.)

I think the rest were covered by Azura.

EllyFire - Dreamweaver

A small benefit for NW :

75% reflection with bramble instead of 20 minutes 70%

I went demon with this Veno and I love the speedboost, increased movement is handy in almost every situation.

Ridelia - Momaganon

Demon veno was my main for 5years in many different versions of PW. I was usually arcane but it worked well at my light armor aps veno too.

The demon skill I liked the most were demon Summer Sprint+ Fox Form making me able to move as fast as a mount (10,9m/s), demon Lucky Scarab - range stun every 8 secs, very usefull in TW - no cata puller could pass through me (it would work well on flag holders on NWs now too I quess, there was no NW when I was playing veno) and demon Parasitic Novaincreasing dmg enemy take by 30%. Also less cooldown of Noxious Gas was nice. And Venomous Scarab with 30% wood resistance reduction.

The only thing I didnt like so much in demon was only 20% chance for phy resistance reduction in Ironwood Scarab, but when it worked it was really good - enemy got 0 phy resistence b:byeb:shockedb:chuckle. And when it didnt work - I made my pet use his own dmg resistance debuff so the 20% chance didnt really matter - enemy was always debuffed.

Chelestine - Heavens Tear

I went demon on my veno during the nirvy craze despite 90% of all venos being sage. I knew I would never be able to afford amp, so I focused instead on the skills I KNEW I'd be able to get - Venomous, Ironwood and Fox.

Fox form is such a life saver in both PvE and PvP. Being able to run that fast constantly (compared to other classes short bursts of speed) is something I now can't live without, and I miss it whenever I'm on any other character. You can catch up to anyone/anything, run away from anyone/anything, and when all else fails during party wipes in instances you can run away from remaining mobs and not die needlessly. The amount of angry people whipsering during NW that I'm no fun coz I run away from them is in itself quite hilarious xD

Venomous gives 30% reduced Wood defence, so the extra damage that you can do (constant because it's your main spamming skill) soon adds up. There's a big difference between the first hit and the second with 30% reduction, and the duration is big enough to cover even the long casting time skills. Also like mentioned above me, it benefits both mystics and barbs in the team. The chi gain from sage would of course be very nice too, but I prefer the increased damage.

Ironwood is a sort of 50/50 skill for me. The chance of landing an armour break on the enemy is very slim compared to the guaranteed effect from sage, but when it does hit, all the sins and bms are gonna notice it! Usually if there's a boss and a barb involved the barb will use his armour break skill to get the constant 30% defence reduction and your demon version might kick in to reduce it even further. No need to have two skills doing the exact same thing really. On a single mob you do more damage than your pet most of the time so your damage is the one that counts the most, so the armour break doesn't make much difference either way.

Other skills of course have their benefits and so on, but these are the three standard skills I use the most as a veno and therefore I chose my path according to them. With the new Butterfly form though I'm very disappointed at the demon version (which is why I haven't got it yet) compared to the chi gain, which makes it MUCH more appealing to go sage. You can fill your chi in a matter of minutes, which is great both for damage boosts or for lending chi to others.

Only my opinions and observation, but hoping it will help!

Crescendia - Harshlands

Hi, unbiased opinion here.

The cultivation a veno chooses is more based on playstyle than benefits. Veno's are one of those classes where the cultivation almost gives it no benefits over the other.

I'll list here some of the differences I've noticed between the two:


Demon:
Speed boost from fox form
Antistun from summer sprint
AOE increased damage debuff from parasitic nova
Most skills have cooldown reduction
Bramble guard returns 75% of damage
Lending hand has chance to transfer 2 full chi bars

Sage:
Pdef boost from fox form
Purify from summer sprint
Maximum HP lowered with soul degeneration
Purge skills is AOE
Most skills give increased damage %
Lending hand has a higher chance to transfer 1 spark
Easy to gain chi with Venomous Scarab


What both cultivations do have that are not worth debating (but always seem to be brought up) are :

Antistun (Morail skill for sages, summer sprint for demons+morai )
Amplify Damage (demon will do alot of damage over time, sage will do alot of burst damage in the beginning)
Debuff armor to 0 (Both cultivations have Fox Myriad and Human Myriad, demons just have the chance with ironwood)


From the list above (or looking at ecatomb yourself) pick what you would enjoy using and go with it. I'm sage but I dont feel like i would be at any disadvantage as a demon veno. It is just my playstyle that prefers the sage cultivation.

Mayfly - Dreamweaver

Clarification on Lending Hand:
Demon Lending Hand has a 20% chance of giving 2 sparks at the cost of 1.
Sage Lending Hand has a 25% chance to give 1 spark at no spark cost.

Also, sage enhanced foxform/butterfly form gives 35 chi per use, demon enhanced foxform decreases chance to receive a crit by 5% for 6 seconds.

Azura - Lost City

Crescendia - Harshlands wrote: »

Hi, unbiased opinion here.

...

What both cultivations do have that are not worth debating (but always seem to be brought up) are :

Antistun (Morail skill for sages, summer sprint for demons+morai )
Amplify Damage (demon will do alot of damage over time, sage will do alot of burst damage in the beginning)
Debuff armor to 0 (Both cultivations have Fox Myriad and Human Myriad, demons just have the chance with ironwood)


From the list above (or looking at ecatomb yourself) pick what you would enjoy using and go with it. I'm sage but I dont feel like i would be at any disadvantage as a demon veno. It is just my playstyle that prefers the sage cultivation.

I just wanted to clarify that the effects of myriad when it does armor break, and hell ironwood aren't the same.

Myriad says it reduces defense by 100%. Yes, I know you are thinking 100% is all, duh. But pw's math is strange here, or maybe the skill is wrongly described. If you do armor break on anyone with myriad you will drop their defense a lot, but not to zero. It's still a big debuff to the enemy, but ironwood is even more powerful because it makes anyone's defense 0.

If you don't believe me, have a friend, or your alt to help you. Do myriad until it proks defense break, and then check how much he still has. You will see that he still has some defense, and if he gets buffed, he gains some defense back, even while he is still under armor break. After that do hell ironwood, until it proks. When it proks you will see that the target's defense is 0, and not even a buff can raise that defense.

Azura - Lost City

Mayfly - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Clarification on Lending Hand:
Demon Lending Hand has a 20% chance of giving 2 sparks at the cost of 1.
Sage Lending Hand has a 25% chance to give 1 spark at no spark cost.

Also, sage enhanced foxform/butterfly form gives 35 chi per use, demon enhanced foxform decreases chance to receive a crit by 5% for 6 seconds.

All this means that all venos can use lending hand on themselves to gain one spark.

Crescendia - Harshlands

Really? I knew about discrepancies with other skill descriptions but was not aware of the myriads lol

Do you know what is the true % number the Myriads take off from defences? I don't really play enough to dedicate time on figuring this out.

Crescendia - Harshlands

Mayfly - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Clarification on Lending Hand:
Demon Lending Hand has a 20% chance of giving 2 sparks at the cost of 1.
Sage Lending Hand has a 25% chance to give 1 spark at no spark cost.

Also, sage enhanced foxform/butterfly form gives 35 chi per use, demon enhanced foxform decreases chance to receive a crit by 5% for 6 seconds.

Then I guess from the description, sage only has 5% more chance to pass a spark, which is really not a deciding factor in choosing a cultivation. b:victory

Mayfly - Dreamweaver

Sage has a 5% greater chance to give yourself an extra spark when cast on yourself (but that isn't its principal use.) When used to pass sparks to others, it always passes one spark but has a 25% chance of not using a spark (so better at spark conservation), demon has a 20% chance to pass 2 sparks at the cost of one (therefore better for quickly filling the other character) but there's no way for the demon veno to tell how many sparks were sent.

Azura - Lost City

Crescendia - Harshlands wrote: »

Really? I knew about discrepancies with other skill descriptions but was not aware of the myriads lol

Do you know what is the true % number the Myriads take off from defences? I don't really play enough to dedicate time on figuring this out.

f:sweat I dont have any idea how pw calculates that.