Spawn killing needs to be fixed.

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary

If you are illiterate, have ADHD (or as I call it, ADDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ), think that 'TL;DR' is witty, or just plain don't like reading anything more than 2 sentances, then please, save yourself time and simply press the 'back' button on your browser. Or better yet, go to www.crayola.com to find something more suited for your attention span. >_>

12 seconds of 'immunity' upon respawn in NW is a complete joke.

1) There are players that can glitch this and kill you right through it
2) It does NOTHING to dissuade spawn campers, even well geared players can do NOTHING if they're being camped by 4+ R9R3 +12 players.
3) It is a tactic that was used last night by the winning nation, second place nation, and third place nation to boot the last place nation very far down the rankings list.

I have two suggestions to fix spawn camping.

1) instead of immunity on spawn, make immunity last 10 seconds, and for 10 seconds after that, give a buff to the player that gives: Immunity to stun, sleep, paralyze, reflect physical, physical ranged, and magic damage, reduce all damage taken by 90%. The reflect should do the Attackers Soulforce + Attacked person's soulforce then multiply that by 10,000. Basically, if an R9R3 archer +12 with two drakeflames in weapon attacks another R9R3 player, they oneshot themself. Also, make this oneshot cost 2 respawns, so if they have 5 respawns when they enter, they oneshot themself on reflect, and now they only have 3 left. Make it so any player killed within 20 seconds of spawning doesn't lose a respawn.

2) Revise the NW maps to have two spawns for each nation on each battle map, and move them to 40m away from the existing map area. Put a barrier there that is one way, players spawn and are in an area where their opponents cannot get to them (if a sin telestuns through the barrier, they should be instakilled and 2 respawns consumed). Put a timer on, and if someone idles in the spawn area for more than 2 minutes, they get punted back to the NW base for their nation. This is probably less feasible than #1, but has some downsides. For one, if the flag is running towards the capture point in your nation's area, then you have to run to get to it after spawning, instead of spawning on it's path.

Another issue I see is antistun, IG, AD, vacs, etc. being abused. When a BM grabs the flag, they instantly use either a run pot, a run skill, or a run with antistun skill. Then, when that runs out, an Archer will alacrity them, and suddenly, even the fastest player cannot stop them. This is making NW into a fight of who has the most funding, NW no longer has ANYTHING to do with skill.

I propose to ban all apo while in NW. Remove the run speed debuff on the flag carrier, but make it so that no run/antistun status can be cast on them, nor can run effects.

And finally, baselocking. There are so many easy fixes for this, one of which is supposed to be in the works already.

Make lands around the base into 40v10. So, the lands touching Frost's base would be 40 frost vs 10 anyone else, regardless of who is attacking or defending. Lock it so that ONLY Frost can attack a non-frost land touching Frost's base. Having Dark attack a flame land then sit there for 30 minutes until timer runs out is ****.

The fix 'in the works' apparently is an increase on the number of lands that can be accessed from the base, simply by adding more lands. I feel that the number of lands should be doubled, or thereabouts, on the NW nation map.

Allow a direct port to in a random land that your nation owns. Would have to be touching at least 2 other lands owned by your nation, and you get one port per 5 lands that your nation owns.

Allow the last place nation to attack the first place nation's base. If they win, then the leading nation's members are all baselocked for 10 minutes, the nation that won gets 5 points, and 5 random lands that the leading nation owns are randomly assigned to the last place nation.

MiniST - Sanctuary

tl;dr

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

I'm detecting a large amount of butthurt.

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I'm detecting a large amount of butthurt.

I want to play NW for fun, not to get stunlocked then oneshot before immunity even wears off.

burningsweetfire

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

If you are illiterate, have ADHD (or as I call it, ADDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ), think that 'TL;DR' is witty, or just plain don't like reading anything more than 2 sentances, then please, save yourself time and simply press the 'back' button on your browser. Or better yet, go to www.crayola.com to find something more suited for your attention span. >_>

12 seconds of 'immunity' upon respawn in NW is a complete joke.

1) There are players that can glitch this and kill you right through it
2) It does NOTHING to dissuade spawn campers, even well geared players can do NOTHING if they're being camped by 4+ R9R3 +12 players.
3) It is a tactic that was used last night by the winning nation, second place nation, and third place nation to boot the last place nation very far down the rankings list.

I have two suggestions to fix spawn camping.

1) instead of immunity on spawn, make immunity last 10 seconds, and for 10 seconds after that, give a buff to the player that gives: Immunity to stun, sleep, paralyze, reflect physical, physical ranged, and magic damage, reduce all damage taken by 90%. The reflect should do the Attackers Soulforce + Attacked person's soulforce then multiply that by 10,000. Basically, if an R9R3 archer +12 with two drakeflames in weapon attacks another R9R3 player, they oneshot themself. Also, make this oneshot cost 2 respawns, so if they have 5 respawns when they enter, they oneshot themself on reflect, and now they only have 3 left. Make it so any player killed within 20 seconds of spawning doesn't lose a respawn.

2) Revise the NW maps to have two spawns for each nation on each battle map, and move them to 40m away from the existing map area. Put a barrier there that is one way, players spawn and are in an area where their opponents cannot get to them (if a sin telestuns through the barrier, they should be instakilled and 2 respawns consumed). Put a timer on, and if someone idles in the spawn area for more than 2 minutes, they get punted back to the NW base for their nation. This is probably less feasible than #1, but has some downsides. For one, if the flag is running towards the capture point in your nation's area, then you have to run to get to it after spawning, instead of spawning on it's path.

Another issue I see is antistun, IG, AD, vacs, etc. being abused. When a BM grabs the flag, they instantly use either a run pot, a run skill, or a run with antistun skill. Then, when that runs out, an Archer will alacrity them, and suddenly, even the fastest player cannot stop them. This is making NW into a fight of who has the most funding, NW no longer has ANYTHING to do with skill.

I propose to ban all apo while in NW. Remove the run speed debuff on the flag carrier, but make it so that no run/antistun status can be cast on them, nor can run effects.

And finally, baselocking. There are so many easy fixes for this, one of which is supposed to be in the works already.

Make lands around the base into 40v10. So, the lands touching Frost's base would be 40 frost vs 10 anyone else, regardless of who is attacking or defending. Lock it so that ONLY Frost can attack a non-frost land touching Frost's base. Having Dark attack a flame land then sit there for 30 minutes until timer runs out is ****.

The fix 'in the works' apparently is an increase on the number of lands that can be accessed from the base, simply by adding more lands. I feel that the number of lands should be doubled, or thereabouts, on the NW nation map.

Allow a direct port to in a random land that your nation owns. Would have to be touching at least 2 other lands owned by your nation, and you get one port per 5 lands that your nation owns.

Allow the last place nation to attack the first place nation's base. If they win, then the leading nation's members are all baselocked for 10 minutes, the nation that won gets 5 points, and 5 random lands that the leading nation owns are randomly assigned to the last place nation.

This is all extremely difficult.... I doubt PWCN would do this.

Plus, adding more stuff = more bugs, glitches, and exploit. I would keep NW the way it is, fixing it would cause more problems and probably make NW even worse. Beside some people mistaken spawn killing for a group of people protecting the flag and happens to spawn right near them. The smart thing is to kill the person that just spawn to stop them from disrupting the flag. Those people that are near spawn killing you are basically setting up a siege so you can't move past your spawns so they can get the flag, it's a basic strategy.

There already a NW map ready that doubles the amount of land we have now. 96 land to be exact.

Adapt or Quit is what I always say.

Bhavyy - Raging Tide

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

1) There are players that can glitch this and kill you right through it

lol?

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

3) It is a tactic that was used last night by the winning nation, second place nation, and third place nation to boot the last place nation very far down the rankings list.

Let me guess. You want things to change because YOU were in the last nation. Sorry. PWI does not tailor itself to individuals. Please find another game.

You're level 87. Go find something else to do for fun. Quite frankly - low levels who QQ about spawn kill = no one cares. Sorry - its true. If you dont have the gear to not get 1 shot - thats your own problem.

That website was the best part of this post. Thanks.

Apostasy - Raging Tide

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

I want to play NW for fun, not to get stunlocked then oneshot before immunity even wears off.

Unfortunately, spawnkilling IS a tactical strategy used by numerous people. It is not an honorable tactic, nor is it at all nice, but it is nonetheless effective.

Now please realize, I personally do not spawnkill, after killing any opponent I tab around to find someone else or just head to some other area (literally walking past spawnkill opportunities while they reset themselves) depending on situations at that time in that battlefield. So I'm not just saying what I am saying to try to defend an action you may assume I do, and I myself am also spawnkilled plenty in every nw in at least 2 or 3 battles throughout any two hour stretch.

There are numerous spawnpoints actually... at least 3 per side (possibly as many as 5, but im not certain of this).

Reallistically, although I have no issues with characters under level 100 going into nw (I think its even a good experience to really see what TW opponents will be capable of... reducing up and coming people of any delusions of their OPness), nw is not really meant for people under 100. Just look at the exchange options for supply tokens.

The only items available to those under 100 is at level 80, warsoul weaponry and its recast... and Im not positive on the level of the upgraded cube neck via the nw forge... might be 80 or 100. Given the extreme ridiculousness of being able to achieve the warsoul before nw was introduced... NW is in fact a fair exchange in that respect toward achieving the warsoul weapon. Anyone below level 100 should simply be shooting to get any amount of supply tokens they can, saving them all and level up while doing so. This will at least give a head start for players once they do get to 100.

The number 1 thing that does need to be fixxed, is the bases themselves moved away from the walls in order to increase territories surrounding the bases to reduce baselocking. And, have no illusions, this would only reduce baselocking and baselock times...

Otherwise, the reality is that nw is fine the way it is. This is even though I am both for and against the idea of CoA-type squad restrictions as another possible change to nw. And, this being said, there are changes coming to nw which might fix many assumed problems... even though I did not bother to really look into what those changes will be... chances are, problems fixxed will equal new problems emerging...

ADD:

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

go to www.crayola.com to find something more suited for your attention span. >_>

I represent that! b:scorn b:beatenup b:avoid

TieIer - Dreamweaver

the first solution is really stupid

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

Getting spawnkilled?

Deal with it, and actually run the flag over so that your team can spawnkill the other side

burningsweetfire

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Getting spawnkilled?

Deal with it, and actually run the flag over so that your team can spawnkill the other side

If I was the barb with the flag I'll be like, Hey everyone follow me and kill everyone near us.
-runs figure 8 around enemy spawn points- xD

Fonyan - Heavens Tear

Bhavyy - Raging Tide wrote: »

You're level 87. Go find something else to do for fun. Quite frankly - low levels who QQ about spawn kill = no one cares. Sorry - its true. If you dont have the gear to not get 1 shot - thats your own problem.

I lol'd so hard at this, what a hilariously stupid comment.

Decus - Dreamweaver

You are immune, get chi, and get attack buffs. Can't do anything to the enemy? Get away. Can't get away? Leave the battle. Don't sit there and die.

If I can use a level 7x and get tokens in NW, there are NO excuses.

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

Fonyan - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I lol'd so hard at this, what a hilariously stupid comment.

^

I started NW with Wind and the Clouds + tt70 and got 75 tokens in 1 night

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

I propose to ban all apo while in NW.

Lol? Why not ban people using genie too? You sound like someone that just lost a duel and try to find a excuse why you lose.

It's PVP everything is allowed deal with it.

You say you want to do it for fun, obviously you don't enjoy ''real'' PVP, you should maybe don't go in nw then.

Edit: About the avatar level of the op, that mean nothing a lot of people post from chars they don't play or don't use as main, I don't play the my cleric that I post with, my mystic 102 is my main, but just post on cleric cause always did.

Lolgasmic - Raging Tide

The only time I spawn kill is when I see a veno/cleric/BM/sin or someone who poses a threat because our flag carrier just ran past them. Yeah, obviously I don't want to give those people a chance, I wipe the floor with them to guarantee our carrier is safe.

As the flag carrier, I do not loiter around... Holy path and Charger Orb Straight as an arrow to capture the flag. Which BTW if you see the flag carrier is hanging around and trying to kill people.... He's obviously trying to **** points off of your team. b:bye

I also think the respawn mechanics need to be tweaked, but what you're talking about is not "balance", you want revenge and extreme penalties for a spawn kill. b:shutup<--

Colum - Raging Tide

Again the useless spawn kill QQ thread..

I have never ben killed by spawncampers, no matter how OP they are, unless I have been distracted (own fault) or I keep dying anyway against everyone and have no chances to win.

12 secs is enough to run off from spawn <__<

Magnanimous_ - Heavens Tear

I thought spawn killing was when you spawn on top of a dude and you kill him because he can't hit you back

Apostasy - Raging Tide

Colum - Raging Tide wrote: »

Again the useless spawn kill QQ thread..

I have never ben killed by spawncampers, no matter how OP they are, unless I have been distracted (own fault) or I keep dying anyway against everyone and have no chances to win.

12 secs is enough to run off from spawn <__<

Its understandable actually... yes "another", but not necessarily "useless". And, YOU have indeed been one of the fortunate ones then. I myself have most certainly been spawn killed...

Magnanimous_ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I thought spawn killing was when you spawn on top of a dude and you kill him because he can't hit you back

Spawnkilling may be defined differently for different people... I simply define it as being killed twice in a row, whereas the second time being killed is without any chance of preparing to fight again. Spawnkilling = RezKilling. It's really just a different name for it.

And its not as simple as "just run away" to avoid being spawnkilled. I have literally had a number of occassions where I fought against R9+ squads... ofc died... and then reappeared exactly back where I died... take a wild guess what happened there? b:question

Another example... being killed and reappearing even away from where i was initially killed... cooldowns werent up to do squat to even make an attempt to prepare nothing... immunity drops awefully fast... sin pops out of no where... take a wild guess what happened there? b:question

Besides this, I have most definitely had occasions where the immunity itself somehow was completely worthless... apparently there are ways of circumventing the so called "immunity"... so I am well aware of what the so called "QQ" is about. But to me, its just not a make or break NW point.

ADDING :

Lolgasmic - Raging Tide wrote: »

The only time I spawn kill is when I see a veno/cleric/BM/sin or someone who poses a threat because our flag carrier just ran past them. Yeah, obviously I don't want to give those people a chance, I wipe the floor with them to guarantee our carrier is safe.

As the flag carrier, I do not loiter around... Holy path and Charger Orb Straight as an arrow to capture the flag. Which BTW if you see the flag carrier is hanging around and trying to kill people.... He's obviously trying to **** points off of your team. b:bye

I also think the respawn mechanics need to be tweaked, but what you're talking about is not "balance", you want revenge and extreme penalties for a spawn kill. b:shutup<--

ya lolli... but what's wrong with revenge? i happen to go after people plenty in nw i probably have no chance against... and again... and again... and, well, you get the picture. Or maybe im just dumb as A Post. (and Revenge is an ok b:chuckle bm, ya too Venge) But the only ones i spawnkill if given a chance are the R9+ people... ESPECIALLY if i could spawnkill an r9rr... but how often do i see one of those die per weekend?

Star_Prism - Archosaur

I agree that something needs to be done with spawn killing. I'm not sure about other servers but I know on ours it has become the main strategy of most R9's. As soon as they come into battle the first thing they do is head to the other sides spawn zone. There have been times that I've felt like leaving a battle from watching my side spawn camping. It's something I want no part of, and it's rather pointless for me to be in a battle when almost all the people on my side are spawn camping.

At spawn points I've seen BM's stunning people then archers using BoA, seekers setting up vortex, mystics dropping plants and packs of sins stealth stunning just to name a few.

And don't give me that lame excuse that the immunity you get upon respawning is so great. Because if people were truly at a disadvantage going after people in the spawn zone, then nobody would be spawn camping and using it as a winning tactic. In fact we would be having the opposite discussion and people would be saying that it's impossible to capture the flag because they can't get by those with the respawn immunity.

It seems that NW has changed where it's not longer a game of capture the flag. It's more seeing who can kill off the most people first, then once the majority of them are out of the battle we'll focus on the flag. And this has cost some battle where one side is so focused on spawn camping they don't realize that not everyone is at the spawn zone and it allows others to cap the flag.

To me spawn camping brings the image of a teenage bully on the playground knocking a seven year old to the ground and then kicking him in the ribs for spite. And it's basically the same maturity level.

Fryvorg - Sanctuary

Bhavyy - Raging Tide wrote: »

You're level 87. Go find something else to do for fun. Quite frankly - low levels who QQ about spawn kill = no one cares. Sorry - its true. If you dont have the gear to not get 1 shot - thats your own problem.

Check OP's sig. :P

@OP: If I were you I would've waited with your post until the next update comes, which is hopefully very soon, seeing the new translated map on PWI's facebook page already.

Fly away from spawn points, you will make it in most cases out of spawn camper's range + you'd get half damage which will keep you alive longer to escape.

Banning apoth would take a lot of tactical depth of PvP'ing, so no. Maybe for the flag carrier only, that can be discussed.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Fryvorg - Sanctuary wrote: »

Check OP's sig. :P

@OP: If I were you I would've waited with your post until the next update comes, which is hopefully very soon, seeing the new translated map on PWI's facebook page already.

Fly away from spawn points, you will make it in most cases out of spawn camper's range + you'd get half damage which will keep you alive longer to escape.

Banning apoth would take a lot of tactical depth of PvP'ing, so no. Maybe for the flag carrier only, that can be discussed.

There's no damage reduction on ground to air attacks. only on air to ground. Though I agree this thread is more QQ than anything. The solutions given are mediocre at best and being res killed is pretty avoidable. I wouldn't mind if we started with 30 or 40 genie energy upon respawn since we start with a spark or so, just for a little bit of extra insurance against people going for those that just respawned. However, as it stands, getting away is perfectly doable.

I've been on both sides of spawn killing, half the time the people stand there and try to kill you which just doesn't work for them, if you run away chances are the people trying to kill you will stop and go for another target. If not, just take your death because let's face it, if an R9R3 is after you chances are you're not going to survive that encounter anyway. If it's someone in average gear? Kite them or just try to kill them. It sucks when you get locked down from res killers but that's just strategy. It's no different than Archers setting up BoA inside the enemy's base where they spawn, you do whatever gives your side an edge.

opkossy

Fryvorg - Sanctuary wrote: »

Fly away from spawn points, you will make it in most cases out of spawn camper's range + you'd get half damage which will keep you alive longer to escape

The penalty is for flying targets attacking those on the ground. Ground to air is full damage, on the other hand.

Decus - Dreamweaver

Just going to leave this here again:

If you cannot fend off your campers, as I often haven't been able to do, then I run away. Do I always get away? Nope. Do I always succeeded in fending off my attackers? Nope. Do I take it personally? Nope. It's a game. Get over it. If they are swarming you and it's futile. Leave the battle. There is nothing preventing you from doing so.

Fryvorg - Sanctuary

OPKossy wrote: »

The penalty is for flying targets attacking those on the ground. Ground to air is full damage, on the other hand.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

There's no damage reduction on ground to air attacks. only on air to ground.

I was living on a lie b:shocked Sorry for that misinformation... Has this been changed? Or what exactly is the purpose of temporarily flying in a fight or of flying Clerics in TW then?

Decus - Dreamweaver

Fryvorg - Sanctuary wrote: »

I was living on a lie b:shocked Sorry for that misinformation... Has this been changed? Or what exactly is the purpose of temporarily flying in a fight or of flying Clerics in TW then?

To get away from melee targets and create some distance, to both questions. Generally people don't look up as often as they look all around them.

opkossy

Decus - Dreamweaver wrote: »

To get away from melee targets and create some distance, to both questions. Generally people don't look up as often as they look all around them.

This. It also allows you to abuse the damage penalty via dropping when someone does get in the air to attack you if they're not ranged and have to get in the air to attack you.

Fryvorg - Sanctuary

Decus - Dreamweaver wrote: »

To get away from melee targets and create some distance, to both questions. Generally people don't look up as often as they look all around them.

I see, thanks for the reply... But especially in TW it always appears to me I'm more visible in the air than on the ground... Seems I can change my play style, now that I know the real reason for that x.x

But back on topic... Some of sarra's ideas are nice, but they mean much more work for the devs, so they wouldn't be put in reality, anyways.
You have to learn to deal with campers. NW are the 4 hours in the week I curse the most, but only at myself XD It happens, it somehow belongs to that. As Decus quoted, it's a game after all.

Bhavyy - Raging Tide

okay so i didnt check the OP's sig.
It doesnt make my point any less valid.
QQless.
You're level 100+. Theres even more things for you to do for fun instead of NW than at 87.

Sylvae - Sanctuary

Fryvorg - Sanctuary wrote: »

I see, thanks for the reply... But especially in TW it always appears to me I'm more visible in the air than on the ground... Seems I can change my play style, now that I know the real reason for that x.x

But back on topic... Some of sarra's ideas are nice, but they mean much more work for the devs, so they wouldn't be put in reality, anyways.
You have to learn to deal with campers. NW are the 4 hours in the week I curse the most, but only at myself XD It happens, it somehow belongs to that. As Decus quoted, it's a game after all.

Might be because you're a barb, but my BM had a noticeable increase in survivability in TWs by mainly staying in the air. Which allowed me to kill alot more clerics than I was before. I carried it over to NW and it remained true.

Also make sure to use Accelerate on your aero. That creates a lot more distance, and means almost all classes need to get on their flyer just to follow you. Whereas normal flying means someone can double jump at same height, pop wings same time you do, and follow along until the unvuln wears off. At least with accel you create clearance between you and the others on the ground, to drop wings in relative safety before the follower can lock and kill you.

Neither my BM or cleric has had an issue with spawn killers, just sometimes getting killed on entering an instance. But those ones are usually completely over-run anyways; so it's either avoidance and hope more come in, or leave because it's not worth staying. At the very least, it refreshed my buffs.