5.0 APS: Now and Then

Knownase - Heavens Tear

I'm curious to hear what everyone thinks about 5.0 APS now.

Is it considered OP in PvP still?

Is it the new standard that nobody really has issue with in PvE anymore and is more or less acceptable?

Should it still be further addressed in future updates thru whatever means?

My personal opinion is, it is OP in PvE, but everyone just doesn't care anymore, and most probably prefer it now. I understand its still a great investment to farm materials quickly. Whether or not TT/Lunar/WS/etc is still profitable to farm is your call to make.

As for PvP, I feel like it can be countered very easily now given Attack and Defense Levels, the stats of G16 Nirvana/Rank 9 Stage 3, and just the fact and if you trying to run 5.0 APS, you have to wear some TT99 gears(unless you have some very lucky streaks of -int adds on r8r/G16 Weapon adds), which is not very protective these days and makes you very squishy. Plus you have Purify Spell and a (well refined) Psy's Soul of Silence buff that each individual hit can trigger off, as well as Bramble when it comes to NW/TW.

Is APS "dead"? Let's discuss!b:victory

Tide_Surfer - Archosaur

In terms of PVP, I don't really consider it that OP. Seeming I can survive +10 dark death daggers on my psy with this build, well yeh, kinda self explanatory, they tend to SoV/Bramble themselves to death on me =/

Angel_Spawn - Sanctuary

Since the gear has become so powerful, interval in pvp has become more or less irrelevant, it still works only vs poorly to average - geared players, however it still dominates pve, haven't done anything in the game for over a month but I guess things haven`t changed so far.

XLeeu - Heavens Tear

Wow - this is an interesting question TBH

I have 5.0 APS sin that I use to do WS, TT and Frost runs with. I do not TW so wont comment there.

I HAD a 5.0 BM, but with new S3 weapons and armour I have decided to revert back to pure axe build.

My BM i use on VoS to PvE those nice mobs and collect DQ points. I also now use my BM for NW and I must say I am impressed. I also use my BM now for RB as constant AOE and HF every now and again is in the order of the day

The Sin rules PvE with his new S3 dags, but when it comes to AOE grinding and massive spike damage in a group, I feel my BM is better of in that regard.

Yeah 5.0 might be OP in PvE, but it gets the job done FAST.

I only went back pure axe on BM as sin took over the 5.0 job of my BM.

BTW - My BM will be using Dual hammers and not dual axes.......

Thats just me.

Buff_me - Harshlands

Aps chars can still take down anyone without R9rr, if they have a skill.
In my opinion, if a person is skilled, he can rule with any gear. If he has no skill, even R9rr won't help him.
PvE-wise it used to be OP, it is still so.

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary

APS... Depends on gear.

5.0 with +3 weapon and no attack levels is pretty weak.

However, 5.0 with a +10 weapon and good attack levels/gear can really work well. Sins that pop on my Archer will either one/two shot me, or I will survive their initial attack, stun wears off, and then I switch to fists and they are dead before they know it. Typically takes one second or less for them to die. Fists are 2 socket +10 GV's. Archer is 5.0 base with them.

My BM tends to not have the same luck, but on the other hand, I prefer to AOE like crazy on that one anyway.

Krel - Heavens Tear

yeah i noticed not alot of 5.0 aps requirements lately.Running alot of things now and people using axes alot with minimum aps (2.50-2.86+)If i want 5.0 ill just pop on the ornaments and tt99 boot/arms,nirv legs(all 3 are LA though i ran with it forever,and since my HA legs are now awakened)

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Knownase - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I'm curious to hear what everyone thinks about 5.0 APS now.

Is it considered OP in PvP still?

I've come to believe that the greater part of what makes PVP broken in this game is massive atk/def level enhancements. An APS user with just a Jones Bless isn't much of a threat. An APS user with a Jones Bless and R9S3 daggers is an entirely different story.

Knownase - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Is it the new standard that nobody really has issue with in PvE anymore and is more or less acceptable?

Should it still be further addressed in future updates thru whatever means?

My personal opinion is, it is OP in PvE, but everyone just doesn't care anymore, and most probably prefer it now. I understand its still a great investment to farm materials quickly. Whether or not TT/Lunar/WS/etc is still profitable to farm is your call to make.

The problem is that everyone's just gotten used to this scenario.

PWE and wanmei really put themselves in a box with the APS issue. Assuming for the moment that we actually have competent devs who listen to us (lol)... APS would take 30 seconds to fix, but it's so entrenched in the in-game society by now that they're reluctant to do so.

So the question is, is it possible to undo the societal norms which reinforce APS as a part of life (or worse, an expected standard)? Well, you tell me. I'd love to see that happen, but I don't think a lot of people are interested. -_-;

I believe on some level, that they (both the in-game society and the devs) understand how much of a problem APS is, but they don't think they can act on it... and that mentality is why this game is dying a slow death.

Knownase - Heavens Tear wrote: »

As for PvP, I feel like it can be countered very easily now given Attack and Defense Levels, the stats of G16 Nirvana/Rank 9 Stage 3, and just the fact and if you trying to run 5.0 APS, you have to wear some TT99 gears(unless you have some very lucky streaks of -int adds on r8r/G16 Weapon adds), which is not very protective these days and makes you very squishy. Plus you have Purify Spell and a (well refined) Psy's Soul of Silence buff that each individual hit can trigger off, as well as Bramble when it comes to NW/TW.

Bramble and SoS are good natural defenses against APS, for sure - although many people are still squishy enough that APS will rip through them before the sin dies on Bramble.

Purify Spell is a whole other can of worms which deserves its own debate thread. :-/

As far as atk/def level being a counter to APS... I put that in the category of "fix what's broken, don't break what isn't."

Chigenkaiona - Dreamweaver

In any non-spawn camped battle, or 20vs5 or 10 or less(Me being on 10 side), I can take out an average of 7-25 people out on my archer per battle if I don't get KS'd. My sin never did that well because the moment I'm out of stealth I was dead. Yeah 5aps is epic in PVP too still, but it's no good when you have to wear TT99/Nirvy G15/R8 Chest/so on.....to be able to maintain 5aps. Doesn't come anywhere as good as my archers full G16 set.

Antaeus - Dreamweaver

i have a base 4.0 aps bm using no tt99 armor and i think it is perfectly balanced with aps. my 4 shots in 1 second is the same or less damage as 1 shot from a magic user. it is when they added sins that it made it cracked. Blood paint and the high damage/crit rate of a sin makes aps op.

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary

1.18 APS with a bow at range does more DPS than most 5.0 of the same grade/refine.

I'd rather be 5.0 with R9 third cast axes. b:avoid

Chigenkaiona - Dreamweaver

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

1.18 APS with a bow at range does more DPS than most 5.0 of the same grade/refine.

I'd rather be 5.0 with R9 third cast axes. b:avoid

Depends on what the person uses. GoF on G15/R9>Bow damage at high aps.

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary

Chigenkaiona - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Depends on what the person uses. GoF on G15/R9>Bow damage at high aps.

Still is a bit of a "depends" thing, as Spirit Blackhole proc does have the chance of making a huge difference. I've seen buffed barbs surviving a lot until purged.

DoodsWH - Sanctuary

You can say it was never meant to be in the game but yes, yes it was. MANY mmos use atk/sec because that what makes the game seem "real time" as for how fast you atk? actually yes other games do have the same thing before pwi did. I would point out examples to you people but they would just get censored.

The only people that complain about aps are the same ones who want to take 10 years literally to get one set of gear or were agaisnt all the new classes. . There are games out there that cater to 10 years gear building. I suggest you go, go go go.

Even if u take it away the demographic it will just switch to the next op class to make it go the fastest. this getting a group of people to spend an hour beating on something is so early 2000's. Oh just make 2 different servers. one for the normal ppl and one for the QQ'ers.

Since we are QQ'ing , were are all the dang smileysssss. getting only a few for an option isnt kewlllllllllllllllll. egggiesssssssssssssssssss

Chigenkaiona - Dreamweaver

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

Still is a bit of a "depends" thing, as Spirit Blackhole proc does have the chance of making a huge difference. I've seen buffed barbs surviving a lot until purged.

But that depends if its a G15 bow(Weak nowadays) or a R9 bow. And everyone has a decent amount of defense levels now thanks to practically free G16 armor, and O Malleys. So it's not hard to survive purge procs.

Antaeus - Dreamweaver wrote: »

i have a base 4.0 aps bm using no tt99 armor and i think it is perfectly balanced with aps. my 4 shots in 1 second is the same or less damage as 1 shot from a magic user. it is when they added sins that it made it cracked. Blood paint and the high damage/crit rate of a sin makes aps op.

The problem is that sins trade off good defense for good attack. So were not OP whatsoever, If anything is the true definition of OP, it's +12 R9(Not even recast needed!) 40k+ HP barbarians. Those are a nightmare....

Miugre - Heavens Tear

DoodsWH - Sanctuary wrote: »

You can say it was never meant to be in the game but yes, yes it was. MANY mmos use atk/sec because that what makes the game seem "real time" as for how fast you atk? actually yes other games do have the same thing before pwi did. I would point out examples to you people but they would just get censored.

The only people that complain about aps are the same ones who want to take 10 years literally to get one set of gear or were agaisnt all the new classes. . There are games out there that cater to 10 years gear building. I suggest you go, go go go.

Soooo... you're saying there are other MMOs out there which are designed to let bosses that were designed to take several minutes die in ten seconds? Well-designed MMOs do this? Because if you really think that, I think we're gonna have to start arguing basic RPG philosophy here. :P

DoodsWH - Sanctuary wrote: »

Even if u take it away the demographic it will just switch to the next op class to make it go the fastest. this getting a group of people to spend an hour beating on something is so early 2000's. Oh just make 2 different servers. one for the normal ppl and one for the QQ'ers.

You have yet to convince me that any game should cater to such impatient people. I've got a better idea for you: how about "the QQers" stay on this game and make it better, and what you call "the normal people" start a private server where everything dies in one hit to any class?

Y'know, drop the pretense and go full-on God Mode? :P Get it out of your system? ...no?

Longknife - Harshlands

Gear standard is to a point where people have higher pdef whereas sins still got the same **** since apparently sins only know how to upgrade daggers and nothing else.

Likewise, because the gear standard is higher, buffs are more dramatic, so simply buffing a player will see their stats increase significantly.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You have yet to convince me that any game should cater to such impatient people. I've got a better idea for you: how about "the QQers" stay on this game and make it better, and what you call "the normal people" start a private server where everything dies in one hit to any class?

So you want the majority of the money spenders to go away to a private server... are you offering to make up the lost income?

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

So you want the majority of the money spenders to go away to a private server... are you offering to make up the lost income?

I'm saying that this game got along fine before it became dependent on the income of packs/aps/r9 and such. If your CS design is dependent on people buying their gears from it, then congratulations, you've designed a terrible MMO.

_JlN_ - Heavens Tear

In my opinion, APS now is the same as it was.
Still most efficient timewise for most things pve related. On bosses, still effective on most bosses coupled with a squad of debuffs and amps.

I never tried pvp until nw and have had fun on my pve geared sin. I assume that aps and pvp has changed over time. I remember hearing when sins could triple spark in stealth or tackling slash and proceed to aps targets. I guess now, there is a heavier emphasis on hitting hard and killing in as few hits as possible, i.e. on magic classes with purify weapons to 2-3 hit them with skills rather than 15 attacks in that same period of time.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I'm saying that this game got along fine before it became dependent on the income of packs/aps/r9 and such. If your CS design is dependent on people buying their gears from it, then congratulations, you've designed a terrible MMO.

So are you going to subsidize the cash flow for pwi to take out pack/rank related income? In the beginning it works because companies is expect to operate at a cash negative at the beginning. Once the start up capital dries up... they are going to need to replace it with something else. That can either be pack/r9 or you... take your pick. I am more then sure that PWI will gladly open a server for you and your buddies without packs or rank or the such if you pony up a couple of mil.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

1.18 APS with a bow at range does more DPS than most 5.0 of the same grade/refine.

I'm guessing you mean for only pure dex/min str archers.

Lol, you're wrong unless you mean dph. For a bow to do more dps than claws at the same grade, same refine means you'd need the bow to have more than 4.24 times the dph. This is almost possible if you're comparing "same grades and same refines" but then 650 dex and 153 strength, unsparked. Even then +phys damage, buffs, and other add-ons shrink the dph difference. The refine rate between bows and claws doesn't stay proportional, too, so the higher the refine the less dph difference.

And for any class that doesn't have 4x the difference between str and dex thats just not true.

APS has always been great for pvp but highly situational in pve. Aps is still the best dps (for most classes) in pvp but since most people use lower tier gear for aps that makes apsing risky in 1v1. In PvE it's about the same as its always been but farming opportunities have been reduced by changes in the game and the amount of people with high aps has grown. Its now the expected norm. In PvP aps are pretty excellent for chi gain and dps rushes and only help push for balance in bm, barb, and sin classes who's dps hasn't caught up with caster/archer defense growth.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I'm saying that this game got along fine before it became dependent on the income of packs/aps/r9 and such. If your CS design is dependent on people buying their gears from it, then congratulations, you've designed a terrible MMO.

No APS... You cant autoattack at all?

God your mp bill must suck

So_Wet - Sanctuary

I love aps, you know 5.0 and 2 spark in stealth is the only way and im being totally honest here but the only way i can kill r9rr psyhics, and wizzys after a headhunt fast, i dont own r9 so the skill spam bs is out of the question. b:chuckle

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

So are you going to subsidize the cash flow for pwi to take out pack/rank related income? In the beginning it works because companies is expect to operate at a cash negative at the beginning. Once the start up capital dries up... they are going to need to replace it with something else. That can either be pack/r9 or you... take your pick. I am more then sure that PWI will gladly open a server for you and your buddies without packs or rank or the such if you pony up a couple of mil.

Even if that were true, which I'm not terribly convinced of, that would mean that PWE's entire business strategy is to milk the game while it circles the drain. The model they're working with is simply unsustainable long-term. Not that this is new information.

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote:

No APS... You cant autoattack at all?

God your mp bill must suck

That... that has to be the lamest, farthest-reaching troll I've ever seen on these forums. Congratulations. -_-

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Even if that were true, which I'm not terribly convinced of, that would mean that PWE's entire business strategy is to milk the game while it circles the drain. The model they're working with is simply unsustainable long-term. Not that this is new information.

Not sustainable long term... game is dead... i been hearing the same **** for at least a good 3 years now. And yet... game is still here.

KungFueyMaid - Heavens Tear

Whats good in 5.0 when those 0.83-1.11 aps axe users with high hp and defense and do high AoE damage in the huge group of mobs in lunar and warsong(which have become popular). To me I only see the good of having 5.0 aps sin to do the DD'ing work to the bosses.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Not sustainable long term... game is dead... i been hearing the same **** for at least a good 3 years now. And yet... game is still here.

We had a gradual exodous of casual players back in the era when packs were new and rep was just coming to the CS. Speaking broadly... they were probably the smartest of us. :P Sure, they were replaced, but not by nearly as good quality players.

It's great that you think the game is sustainable in its current form, but I'd like to know how many times you think they can one-up their own gear creations before even hardcore people like you call them ridiculous. Do we need weapons with 200 attack level and an invincibility proc before people decide enough is enough?

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

That... that has to be the lamest, farthest-reaching troll I've ever seen on these forums. Congratulations. -_-

Oh so you can attack every second?

And you do use interval as an archer?

Hmmmm

Use words correctly

Kniraven - Lost City

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

Use words correctly

Aps is an acronym, not a word.

Rice_hero - Lost City

Hmmm... Only if the 5.0 has zerk on it (mines has gof from nv g.15), the only time using 5.0 based gear is stupid is whenever you're going against someone with stacked defense levels and I mean.. stacked! lol.

I can still kill LA r9's most of the time, even magic classes are harder to deal with since they usually time their buffs & pots so well. Heavy armor is still a simple tangling mire away from death most of the time unless they're defense lvl stacked too.

Basically, works on avg. to early end game geared players.

Although, if someone can achieve making a R8R 5.0 R93 dagger full josd Assassin, that'd be the most insane kps (kills per second) build period...