Sage or Demon

Kalishana - Archosaur

So yay people are back for a bit... and during the last 6 months, I've only leveled like 7 levels... winner.

In any case, I'm almost 89 so its time for the most repeated thread ever... b:victory... the ever famous Sage or Demon?

Ok now before I begin, I need to address a few points:

A. To those that say search it up on Ecatomb and be happy-> I level slow but I'm not dumb. I've looked at that thing forever. If there was something that could sway it one way or another, I'd have noticed it. But since they are quite even its hard to tell without pro people's opinions.

B. I looked at other threads. Yeah, not much help because a lot of them people go: What's your playstyle? And the other guys detail something.

C. What's MY playstyle? Iono... I don't think i have one really... though that will be further explained for the rest of the post.

So generally I mostly use Pyrogram, Gush, Stone Rain, Hailstorm, D. Pyrogram, and Sandstorm. For CC and utility, I use FOW, Soporofic Whisper, and the shields (deps on who im facing but mostly Earth shield). i have yet to use the Ultimates as they do less damage than SS currently... but they are like level 1 while SS is level 10 so I might use them later?? I do tend to use Sutra a whole lot.

This would usually drive me to be a Demon except: I wanna TW successfully, and I don't like demon Masteries which give Crit and not more damage. I play glass cannon build so i like seeing those huge numbers all the time, not only during the crit happenings. Also, I have picked up some Morai skills (the reversions) and will probably get Arcane Defense. Finally, I find Sutra very Essential to my game play as thats how i usually kill whatever it is i need to kill. So Chi is needed for that.

TLDR: Hailstorm, Earth Shield, Stone Rain, and SS wins for Demon; Masteries, Pyro, Gush, D Pyro, FOW, and Ults that i haven't used are better for Sage...


So pretty much, Should I go Demon or should I go Sage?

MageFizban - Lost City

Kalishana - Archosaur wrote: »

So yay people are back for a bit... and during the last 6 months, I've only leveled like 7 levels... winner.

In any case, I'm almost 89 so its time for the most repeated thread ever... b:victory... the ever famous Sage or Demon?

Ok now before I begin, I need to address a few points:

A. To those that say search it up on Ecatomb and be happy-> I level slow but I'm not dumb. I've looked at that thing forever. If there was something that could sway it one way or another, I'd have noticed it. But since they are quite even its hard to tell without pro people's opinions.

B. I looked at other threads. Yeah, not much help because a lot of them people go: What's your playstyle? And the other guys detail something.

C. What's MY playstyle? Iono... I don't think i have one really... though that will be further explained for the rest of the post.

So generally I mostly use Pyrogram, Gush, Stone Rain, Hailstorm, D. Pyrogram, and Sandstorm. For CC and utility, I use FOW, Soporofic Whisper, and the shields (deps on who im facing but mostly Earth shield). i have yet to use the Ultimates as they do less damage than SS currently... but they are like level 1 while SS is level 10 so I might use them later?? I do tend to use Sutra a whole lot.

This would usually drive me to be a Demon except: I wanna TW successfully, and I don't like demon Masteries which give Crit and not more damage. I play glass cannon build so i like seeing those huge numbers all the time, not only during the crit happenings. Also, I have picked up some Morai skills (the reversions) and will probably get Arcane Defense. Finally, I find Sutra very Essential to my game play as thats how i usually kill whatever it is i need to kill. So Chi is needed for that.

TLDR: Hailstorm, Earth Shield, Stone Rain, and SS wins for Demon; Masteries, Pyro, Gush, D Pyro, FOW, and Ults that i haven't used are better for Sage...


So pretty much, Should I go Demon or should I go Sage?

I think I'd have trouble deciding even now after playing the game for 3.5+ years. Glad psys don't have this problem.

Although I'd probably lean towards demon now. CCs/ more pdef/ Crits kill. 5% dmg increase doesn't. Only people that still die to sage bids are undergeared people, unbuffed EAs, BMs in pmarrow (lol), and yeah that's probably about it.

If you're super into TW, I'd probably still suggest sage though because the more you drop ults, the happier you will be. b:flower

Adroit - Lost City

The problem with these threads is that it really just comes down to personal preference. It's like asking somebody else to pick out your favorite color, just kinda hard for somebody else to do for you. Like you already mentioned, the cultivations are very well balanced with each other, although there are a few things that you said I'd like to clarify.

You mention that you think D.pyro is better for sage, which I'm not sure I totally agree with. It sounds great getting some extra fire reduction, but this reduction does not stack with undine (the debuffs to not override, if you use d.pyro and then undine, you will still have a 20% fire reduction.. and if you cast undine first then d.pyro.. then you will have a 60% fire reduction). The lower channel time for the demon version means that it is more usable outside of sutra, which is definitely a perk (where I hardly ever use d.pyro outside of a sutra combo.. and almost every sutra combo I undine first making the sage perk basically useless for me).

You also mention that you think demon SS is better, and I'm not sure if you are thinking that for the right reasons. I'm a sage wizard right now, and if I were to change my cultivation tomorrow and get all the demon skills, sandstorm would actually hit less due to masteries. The perk for demon SS comes in where it has near the same damage as sage but still gets the extra crit % from demon masteries.


In general, I think demon is the obvious choice for -channel builds (which it doesn't sound like you are).. and sage wizards are the obvious choice for those who really only TW (again doesn't really sound like you). Other than that, it is really a tossup.. as I'm sure you know sage gets tons of chi (don't really need to conserve, I really like being able to blow 2 sparks to waste genie/apoth of an opponent and being back to full chi in no time).. where demon gets better CC, more pdef, more crit, and less channeling. You really can't go wrong with whatever you choose, both cultis are amazing.. I'd just go with your gut or whatever sounds/feels more appealing to you.

Thrieya - Lost City

I'd agree with a lot of what Adroit said, except that sometimes, the "obvious" choices may not necessarily be the best ones there are. It's kind of difficult to give you any advice that will help with what you want to do with your wizard because you're not giving us very many details, particularly about your playing style.

Both Sage and Demon culti paths each suit some very different playing styles, with a little room for personal preference left in between. Obviously, both paths have their pros and cons. Some wizzies will choose to build upon their paths' strengths, ignoring their weaknesses, and others will choose to work on covering all bases.

For myself, I went Demon, which is a path that grants quite a lot of -chan, crit, and P. Def. with its skills. I chose to build upon P. Def. and crit while sacrificing -chan because I found that I preferred the added survivability wearing P. Def. ornaments gave me, rather than wearing magic ornaments for the -chan add-ons. That was a personal choice of mine, and you may want something different for your wizzy, but I don't know, because you're not saying much about what you want for your wizard.

MageFizban - Lost City

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

The problem with these threads is that it really just comes down to personal preference. It's like asking somebody else to pick out your favorite color, just kinda hard for somebody else to do for you.

Your favorite color is rainbow.
Amour's spirit told me. b:avoid

Kalishana - Archosaur

Hm... didn't know that the debuffs don't stack (does genie spark stack with undine or no?)
But does like 0.5 secs make that much of a difference?

I just want to hit hard

But yeah, I think I wasn't detailed enough

Pure Damage>Crit Damage>Channal Speed>Defense for me... so knowing that, which one would be best for me (> means greater than)? (Though i still plan to shard JOSD when I farm a few billion in like 5 years... lol)

AshenSkies - Heavens Tear

Kalishana - Archosaur wrote: »

Hm... didn't know that the debuffs don't stack (does genie spark stack with undine or no?)
But does like 0.5 secs make that much of a difference?

I just want to hit hard

But yeah, I think I wasn't detailed enough

Pure Damage>Crit Damage>Channal Speed>Defense for me... so knowing that, which one would be best for me (> means greater than)? (Though i still plan to shard JOSD when I farm a few billion in like 5 years... lol)

Yes genie spark stacks with undine.

As for the last part...my order is:

Defense>Pure Damage>Crit Damage>Channel Speed on this server

Thrieya - Lost City

Well if you want pure damage above all else then I would say Sage is the path for you due to the masteries. Demon hits hard thanks to the added crit. I have 18% with all my gear and masteries, 20% if I choose to use the R8 weapon, and it'll be 19%/21% as soon as I get my crappy 2nd cast NV chest properly sharded and refined.

As a crit Demon wiz, I have to say, it makes NW PvP really really fun. Some people are going to say that relying on crit isn't going to get consistent results, and maybe that's true, but I find it entertaining to tap a spell out and see if it kills my target or not. Sometimes it will, sometimes it won't, but that's what makes the game fun for me, I gamble with crit.

Really, though, if you want to hit hard, don't rely on skills alone. Gear and proper debuffing play a huge part in those giant numbers you'll see in every wizzy's damage log. In fact, you really can't just look at the skills when you're deciding on your wizzy's culti. You have to consider what kind of gear you're going to get for your wizzy. Will it be geared towards crit? Channeling? Defense? Culti and gear are meant to complement each other to form your preferred playing style.

HexOmega - Dreamweaver

im a old demon wizard.
i wouldnt want to go sage even if someone paid conversion and all skills
i like it to much


but i would advise any new wizard to go with the path of sage, it fits our role model better.
the demon can do all the same but has some different ways some prefer. even in mass pvp wherr it is supposed to be "weaker".


go sage man.
!

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands

When I needed to chose culti EVERYONE was telling me to go sage for my wizz, but the demon skills was more what I was looking for, I chose demon and never regretted it, I'm really glad I didn't listen people.

Check the skills on ecatomb, if need take your time, but be sure to chose what you want and not what people tell you to do. On my venomancer I did listen people and today I really regret my cultivation and wish I didn't listen people.

Illyn - Raging Tide

I chose sage and didnt regret it. It's great to be aways with chi.

However with NW maybe demon is a better choice now cause of control skills. I really miss CC skills when I have to stop flaggers and all I have is MS and hailstorm (that usually fail).

MageFizban - Lost City

Illyn - Raging Tide wrote: »

I chose sage and didnt regret it. It's great to be aways with chi.

However with NW maybe demon is a better choice now cause of control skills. I really miss CC skills when I have to stop flaggers and all I have is MS and hailstorm (that usually fail).

You have pitfall, ice prison, tactical reversion, and blinding blaze as well

Illyn - Raging Tide

MageFizban - Lost City wrote: »

You have pitfall, ice prison, tactical reversion, and blinding blaze as well

Yea. But pitfall is even less reliable than hailstorm and I didnt get my lvl 100 skills yet (I have to finish my culti first).

And do tactical reversion really work in NW?

MageFizban - Lost City

Illyn - Raging Tide wrote: »

Yea. But pitfall is even less reliable than hailstorm and I didnt get my lvl 100 skills yet (I have to finish my culti first).

And do tactical reversion really work in NW?

Probably. No clue though. However, I don't see why it wouldn't.

I_sage_i - Harshlands

unfornetly i wasnt smart like bella and i listened to everyone tell me "go sage go sage" but lately i have been regreting it. idk what to do i kinda wanna change over to demon because i like the skills better but then i have to consider the fact of the actual possibility of me obtaining these skills.

Thrieya - Lost City

MageFizban - Lost City wrote: »

Probably. No clue though. However, I don't see why it wouldn't.

It says right there in the skill description that it only works on the World Map and the NW battlefield is not the World Map. b:cry

That said, even Demon CC skills can be a bit touchy when trying to stop a flagger. First problem with stopping a flagger is that they're usually going at max speed past you thanks to Holy Path/Charger Orb(if they're smart) and all the skills that could stop them either take time to cast or are close-range skills.

Ice Prison swallows two valuable sparks, a whole lot of MP, and requires you to be near the flagger.

Demon Emberstorm also requires you to be near the flagger, takes time to channel(which means they'll most likely be out of your range before you finish casting) and is fairly unreliable. Not to mention the flagger could probably faceroll you if they're not dead(which they're usually not) once the stun(if it procs) wears off. Also who has Demon Emberstorm anyway?

Demon Hailstorm is fairly unreliable and depending on the class the flagger will be immune to movement debuffs anyway, and also takes time to cast.

Demon Stone Rain takes time to cast and the proc rate isn't that high when you're dealing with a target that's running at max speed.

Mountain's Seize takes time to cast. 'Nuff said.

Pitfall is unreliable. 'Nuff said.

Glacial Snare takes time to cast. 'Nuff said.

Blinding Blaze requires you to hit the target again before they stop moving... for all of 2 seconds. Also who has Blinding Blaze anyway?

Finally, let's not forget about our ever-lovely sleep. Soporific Whisper, which only takes 20 Chi, 600 MP, has a cast range of 20m, is an instant sleep... that only lasts 4 seconds or however long it takes for someone else to hit the flagger again and has a CD time of 2 minutes. And you actually have to stop before you can cast it too. Fun.

Adroit - Lost City

Thrieya - Lost City wrote: »

It says right there in the skill description that it only works on the World Map and the NW battlefield is not the World Map. b:cry

That said, even Demon CC skills can be a bit touchy when trying to stop a flagger. First problem with stopping a flagger is that they're usually going at max speed past you thanks to Holy Path/Charger Orb(if they're smart) and all the skills that could stop them either take time to cast or are close-range skills.

Ice Prison swallows two valuable sparks, a whole lot of MP, and requires you to be near the flagger.

Demon Emberstorm also requires you to be near the flagger, takes time to channel(which means they'll most likely be out of your range before you finish casting) and is fairly unreliable. Not to mention the flagger could probably faceroll you if they're not dead(which they're usually not) once the stun(if it procs) wears off. Also who has Demon Emberstorm anyway?

Demon Hailstorm is fairly unreliable and depending on the class the flagger will be immune to movement debuffs anyway, and also takes time to cast.

Demon Stone Rain takes time to cast and the proc rate isn't that high when you're dealing with a target that's running at max speed.

Mountain's Seize takes time to cast. 'Nuff said.

Pitfall is unreliable. 'Nuff said.

Glacial Snare takes time to cast. 'Nuff said.

Blinding Blaze requires you to hit the target again before they stop moving... for all of 2 seconds. Also who has Blinding Blaze anyway?

Finally, let's not forget about our ever-lovely sleep. Soporific Whisper, which only takes 20 Chi, 600 MP, has a cast range of 20m, is an instant sleep... that only lasts 4 seconds or however long it takes for someone else to hit the flagger again and has a CD time of 2 minutes. And you actually have to stop before you can cast it too. Fun.

There are a lot of problems with this post

1) mp cost is not relevant.. mp is extremely cheap and should not even be on the list of concerns.
2) any competent wiz should have all their important skills (blinding blaze/demon emberstorm included.. although ofc demon emberstorm only for demon mages)
3) demon emberstorm can be cast nearly instantly because it is a charge skill, the time required to use this skill is almost non-existent
4) blinding blaze is a 3 second immobilize, not 2.. and is extremely useful at stopping non-purify wep characters
5) you should be facerolling the flagger, not the other way around. Remember you have a HUGE advantage in the use of genie where the flag carrier cannot use theirs
6) the time it takes to cast skills is offset by the 30m range that we have.. it doesn't take much mental power to figure out that you can holy path ahead of the flag carrier and use multiple skills while they are in range.. I generally get at least 3 skills off as someone tries to run past me, and if that fails I will holy path/charger orb to catch up or get ahead of them and use another 3+ skills.

The real problem is that just because you deem a skill unreliable or mention the obvious (it takes time to channel/cast) does not make a skill useless. Generally, if a flag carrier is by themselves with a charger I'll sleep -> MS them and finish them before the stun ends.. and if it is a situation where they are getting hit by several people (where sleep is not very useful).. somebody else will stun or immobilize them for me.. in which case I'll **** them with a sutra combo. I also use hailstorm/pitfall very regularly (even though I'm sage).. and the immobilize proc still works enough to make it worthwhile.. and would only be moreso for a demon wizard. The only real issue I have when trying to stop a flag carrier is when I'm getting harassed by several others (control skills suck). Long story short, it is not difficult to stop flag carriers as a wiz, what you are describing sounds more like gear issues than anything else.

MageFizban - Lost City

I_sage_i - Harshlands wrote: »

unfornetly i wasnt smart like bella and i listened to everyone tell me "go sage go sage" but lately i have been regreting it. idk what to do i kinda wanna change over to demon because i like the skills better but then i have to consider the fact of the actual possibility of me obtaining these skills.

For some reason I don't believe you *cough your name*
DW, sage gets more fun at 99 when you get your ults

I_sage_i - Harshlands

so far nothing has changed and as i look over the skills that i can obtain i keep wanting to change over to demon more and more. to be honest i think the only thing that is keeping me sage right now is long a$$ lvl 100 culti. dont feel like doing it but idk as i go along my motivation to be demon might over power my laziness

I_sage_i - Harshlands

MageFizban - Lost City wrote: »

For some reason I don't believe you *cough your name*
DW, sage gets more fun at 99 when you get your ults

ment to quote you in my last reply also forums isn't updated im lvl 100 lol

Kalishana - Archosaur

Lol, I went demon.
So hopefully I made the right choice?
Also, If I'm full chi, I use sutra, throw in a pyro, launch Demon Bids and it procs, does that mean i can use another Ult at instant speed? (Mountain Seize?)

MageFizban - Lost City

Kalishana - Archosaur wrote: »

Lol, I went demon.
So hopefully I made the right choice?
Also, If I'm full chi, I use sutra, throw in a pyro, launch Demon Bids and it procs, does that mean i can use another Ult at instant speed? (Mountain Seize?)

No because the way the chi saving procs work is by giving you the chi first then taking the skill's chi requirement away.

Kalishana - Archosaur

So then Sutra->Pyro->Proc Bids->Gush->MS
3.99->1.99->2->3.99->1.99->2->0

Cast times: 0.8+0.1(reflex time to click another spell)+1.6+0.1+1.0+0.1->+1.4+0.1=4.1s... I get about 1 more spell to cast?

Iono should work fine in a Non-PVP setting cuz the opponent will probably just AD when he sees that really obvious blue swirl of magic.

Thrieya - Lost City

Adroit, please tell me when the last time you actually saw Demon Emberstorm on sale was and I'll gladly perform a voodoo-resurrection to get Nikolai Tesla to build me a time machine so I can go buy it.

That said, I'm not saying these skills are useless, just that trying to catch the flagger when they're going at 15m/s thanks to Holy Path/Charger Orbs is next to impossible with them, especially when you burned through your genie spamming Holy Path just to catch up, not overtake, them, and when apoth pots are on CD for whatever reason, which is the situation I find myself most often in. Not to mention whatever nation I get put in seems to love going AFK to the point where you'll find 12 out of 20 people doing so in 1 battle.

It's super-easy to catch a flagger that's not going at max speed, because those are the dumb ones. It's the smart ones that saved Holy Path/Charger Orbs that people will have difficulties with.

Kalishana, grats on going Demon. And don't worry, if at any point you start thinking you made the wrong choice, do what I did and learn to adapt to the problems you find. I can honestly say Demon's a truly fun ride to take.

MageFizban - Lost City

Kalishana - Archosaur wrote: »

So then Sutra->Pyro->Proc Bids->Gush->MS
3.99->1.99->2->3.99->1.99->2->0

Cast times: 0.8+0.1(reflex time to click another spell)+1.6+0.1+1.0+0.1->+1.4+0.1=4.1s... I get about 1 more spell to cast?

Iono should work fine in a Non-PVP setting cuz the opponent will probably just AD when he sees that really obvious blue swirl of magic.

If you had like 0 ping that might work. But even in sutra, channeling isn't 0. To cast back to back sutra ults, ztp+cloud eruption probably your best bet.

FaceRolI - Sanctuary

theres something wrong w/ ur chars...

back to back ultis no problem b:cute

MageFizban - Lost City

FaceRolI - Sanctuary wrote: »

theres something wrong w/ ur chars...

back to back ultis no problem b:cute

Hahaha I definitely forgot about demon chan build

I_sage_i - Harshlands

ok so i think im fully convinced to switch to demon......idk just seems like sage sucks...

Kalishana - Archosaur

@Thrieya: Thanks for motivational support :P If i have any problems ill ask you.

@faceroll: You sir are a win.

Just got Demon Stone Rain and Gush... my 1mil for updating to demon version for each spell takes a lot of money... how do you guys manage to farm so well as wizzies...

Thrieya - Lost City

Here's a link to a thread about comparing skillbook values, if you're curious. In my experience, though, having an active, helpful guild and friends helps greatly when farming for skillbooks -- I was offered Demon Crown of Flames for free by a guildie once.

But sometimes, we just get plain-super lucky. After an Abaddon run a couple of years ago in which I ended up soloing Monoblat Dracoboa after the rest of the squad wiped to it, the barb traded me Demon D. Pyrogram completely free of charge. Now, in all honesty I have no idea who that barb was or why he would give me such a nice skillbook free out of the blue, but I didn't look a gift horse in the mouth. b:thanks