DEX vs Amber shards

TheDan - Sanctuary

I realize there's already a similar thread discussing whether or not accuracy / dex is necessary, and it looks like most would agree that BMs are in need of accuracy for end game PvP. However how much, and how is still in question, so I'd like to pick up the discussion from there instead.

Accuracy was never a problem for me, in fact prior to r99 200 Dex was standard for most BMs, but I am starting to notice upwards of 20% of the time I'm missing on R999 sins and archers. Several Drake Bashes missing on people I used to easily stun-lock and kill within 4-5 hits are now stun-locking me back and leaving me vulnerable to ganks.

So the question here is:

I'm wondering if Amber gems would be a better alternative than statting Dex. This alternative never really occurred to me until yesterday when I was walking around South Arch and player info'd some other R999 BMs on my server that also PvP quite often and noticed they were all sharded Amber Gems in their weapons. So I'm like, what gives?

To me it doesn't make any sense, but maybe I'm missing something here. 225*2*2 accuracy rings = 900 accuracy, which amounts to the same amount of accuracy 45 dex gives with 2 accuracy rings. But as far as I know, STR has always been slightly less valuable than pure phys attack damage wise due to the fact that STR isn't part of weapon damage, and only base physical damage.

My personal feeling would still weigh more on the dex because you have crit accuracy and evasion, 3 stats to make up for having dex over accuracy shards. Has anyone else given any thought into this? This seems to have too many variables involved for there to be a straight forward answer for this.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

Kiiiiiinda busy to do it myself right now. I might later.

I'd suggest using the damage calc to show how much damage % you lose with the Garnets not being there.

I'd also suggest showing how much damage % you lose restatting 40 dex, 60 Dex, and 80 Dex.

See which has better results.

Shardik - Lost City

I look forward to the development of this, Mostly because i don't know how accuracy is factored in regards of weapons b:surrender

Hope some knowledgeable soul helps b:thanks

BoomBastic - Lothranis

I did some fast basic pw calcs on it just to see what we talking about.. Only +12 wep.. Armor r999 + rings, no refines since those wont factor in the dmg or acc.

Same base build, 200 Dex, changed one build to acc shards, and the other i matched the phys atk as close i could by removing str and adding in chuncks of 20 dex.. And when i moved 60 str over to dex, dmg output was close to equal..


Drakeflames:
http://pwcalc.com/76994646238e93a0

Physical Atk. 10111-15758
Critical Rate 26%
Accuracy 5200
Evasion 2600

Golden soulgems acc sharding:
http://pwcalc.com/0352176a170e70c1

Physical Atk. 10421-16691
Critical Rate 23%
Accuracy 5200
Evasion 2000

_______________________________

I'm no math wiz and gamemechanics guru, but just looking at those 2 results,
i would do drakeflames over acc shards any day..
3% more crit + / 600 more Evasion
And also.. dont forget, when swaping to claws/fist, you have 60 extra dex to land more hits..
The R999 bms you saw, did you check them with claws/fists? cause if acc sharding is going to be "optimal" i would guess they have to acc shard claws/fists as well..

TheDan - Sanctuary

BoomBastic - Lothranis wrote: »

I did some fast basic pw calcs on it just to see what we talking about.. Only +12 wep.. Armor r999 + rings, no refines since those wont factor in the dmg or acc.

Same base build, 200 Dex, changed one build to acc shards, and the other i matched the phys atk as close i could by removing str and adding in chuncks of 20 dex.. And when i moved 60 str over to dex, dmg output was close to equal..


Drakeflames:
http://pwcalc.com/76994646238e93a0

Physical Atk. 10111-15758
Critical Rate 26%
Accuracy 5200
Evasion 2600

Golden soulgems acc sharding:
http://pwcalc.com/0352176a170e70c1

Physical Atk. 10421-16691
Critical Rate 23%
Accuracy 5200
Evasion 2000

_______________________________

I'm no math wiz and gamemechanics guru, but just looking at those 2 results,
i would do drakeflames over acc shards any day..
3% more crit + / 600 more Evasion
And also.. dont forget, when swaping to claws/fist, you have 60 extra dex to land more hits..
The R999 bms you saw, did you check them with claws/fists? cause if acc sharding is going to be "optimal" i would guess they have to acc shard claws/fists as well..

They only had accuracy gems in Axe

You missed the masteries. With the masteries the damage difference between the two go in favor of the garnet sharded weapon because the garnet gems are included in calculating weapon damage, whereas STR isn't so the loss in STR isn't near as bad as loss in weapon damage from garnets. STR seems to fall off more as weapon damage is increased it becomes less of a factor as masteries don't affect it. Titan Buff also seems to close to gap more towards garnet sharded weapon's favor.

Here's some my own build tweaked with G11 gems to make it more reasonable:

http://pwcalc.com/5d6f3b12529bc647 - Standard 200 Dex - No modifications

14885 - 23533 phys attack
31% crit
4000 accuracy
2180 evasion

http://pwcalc.com/f668170e5efcf988 - With Amber Gems

14064 - 22712 phys attack
31% crit
4900 accuracy
2180 evasion

http://pwcalc.com/6ebcd5521419065f - With 240 Dex (+40)

14159 - 22386 phys attack
33% crit
4800 accuracy
2580 evasion

http://pwcalc.com/182a96cfae5fd586 - With 260 Dex (+60)

13796 - 21812 phys attack
34% crit
5200 accuracy
2780 evasion

http://pwcalc.com/51681184e3d73704 - With 280 Dex (+80)

13433 - 21238 phys attack
35% crit
5600 accuracy
2980 evasion

Maelael - Heavens Tear

k so with Dan's build using the damage calc spreadsheet

Damage Average vs 15k Pdef, 0 Attack Levels:
Lv 11 Garnets: 7719
No Garnets: 7365 [4.81% Loss]

Level 11 Gems: 900 Accuracy
Level 12 Gems: 1200 Accuracy

No Garnets -40 Str +40 Dex (+800 Accuracy): 6949 [5.99% / 11.08%]
No Garnets -60 Str +60 Dex (+1200 Accruacy): 6741 [9.26% / 14.51%]
No Garnets -80 Str +80 Dex (+1600 Accruacy): 6533 [12.74% / 18.15%]
No Garnets -100 Str +100 Dex (+2000 Accruacy): 6325 [16.44% / 22.04%]

So provided I didn't **** too much up...

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=18206091&postcount=9

From 62% at You're getting a 4% better to hit chance at 900, 5% at 1000, and 5.5% more at 1200 vs 5000 Evasion.

Even at 6000 accuracy you're looking at a 70% chance to hit 5000 evasion.

But lets say Im crazy, and I go both level 12 gems AND restat 100 Dex. 74.2%. A loss of 22% damage for a 12% jump in hit %. Losing 1400 damage on an average hit.

So really, provided I didnt mess up my math *looks sternly at other math geeks)

Garnet vs Amber is about an even trade off 1% Accuracy for 1% damage. Keep in mind a lot of Archers and Sins get over 5k accuracy tho. It's a bit better if you use lv 12 Ambers, I woulda assume vs R9rr Dex users it would be about even again 1% for 1%.

You're getting a 50%-66% return on hit % from loss of damage % with Strength to Dex conversion.


Make your own conclusions and all...but Im not sure its worth it for a 4% bump in hit % to get rid of 4% damage which becomes 8% with crit, and 16% with zerk crit.

If you really, really had to go for a big change I'd do the combo of Lv 12 Ambers and 40 Dex carried over. At an 11% drop in damage but an 8% increase in hit % (with 2 more crit!) I think thats the fairest bargain if you feel your accuracy needs improvement.

Jaabg - Sanctuary

Just a tweak to throw out there. Not many people would do it, but the emperor tome will add 45 dex. It only adds 32 extra dex compared to luad, so add 8 more dex, or what ever the amount is for next crit lvl.

If going the tome way, still having low accuracy issues, one amber gem one garnet might help? Just random thoughts, suggestions while i wait for food.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

Just a tweak to throw out there. Not many people would do it, but the emperor tome will add 45 dex. It only adds 32 extra dex compared to luad, so add 8 more dex, or what ever the amount is for next crit lvl.

If going the tome way, still having low accuracy issues, one amber gem one garnet might help? Just random thoughts, suggestions while i wait for food.

Question is, for the fellow PWcalc warriors...

Is there a way to drop one 50% ring for something else more stat, attack, or defense worthy and still keep 4kish accuracy? Were only talking 1k accruacy here, so about 50 dex worth?

Dunno it was a crazy idea. If the % loss of damage was closer to even or even half for crit value, we could consider that a better bargain?

Jaabg - Sanctuary

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Question is, for the fellow PWcalc warriors...

Pwcalc warrior reporting

I made two changes only. I put in an emperor tome, i engraved the necklace. The necklace has two options, get 1 stat, get 2 stats. I assumed 10 dex, and 20 dex. as long as the combination is dex or str, it can be restated to the other. I kept the str the same on the tome, so damage remains unchanged.

45 dex from tome+10 dex from engraving

Physical Atk. 14885-23533
Critical Rate 33%
Accuracy 4840
Evasion 2600


45 dex from tome+20 dex from engraving

Physical Atk. 14885-23533
Critical Rate 33%
Accuracy 5040
Evasion 2700

Another option people might consider is to try for dex on their ring engravings as well as necklace, until they can get the tome.

If there is +10 dex on both rings, necklace engrave of 10. The stats come out to

Physical Atk. 14885-23533
Critical Rate 32%
Accuracy 4600
Evasion 2480

If someone goes out full on, +20 dex on each ring, +30 dex on necklace, +45 from tome,

Physical Atk. 14885-23533
Critical Rate 35%
Accuracy 5640
Evasion 3000

If the above restats the 32 extra str point of the tome into dex, the following otucome occurs

Physical Atk. 14885-23533
Critical Rate 36%
Accuracy 6280
Evasion 3320

That is the max accuracy i can think of right now, without restatting str. The above build is 6 dex away from next crit point, so might be worth it to restat 6 dex for one extra crit chance.

I am not a fan of restating str into dex. I would how ever spend 100m~1b coins on getting the stats on the rings, neckalces.

It might be, in the future we also get a belt engraving system, to complete the system.

punk21790

Ok well I've been a bm forum stalker for a while now n I figured I'd speak up. I'm not fully r9 yet but what about our 100% accuracy skills. Smack and flame tsunami. Is our damage output high enough endgame to rely on these skills killing sins/ archers? Would we be better off keeping our str and drake flames for higher damage output and try and land crits/ zerk crits with those skills?

Jaabg - Sanctuary

punk21790 wrote: »

Ok well I've been a bm forum stalker for a while now n I figured I'd speak up. I'm not fully r9 yet but what about our 100% accuracy skills. Smack and flame tsunami. Is our damage output high enough endgame to rely on these skills killing sins/ archers? Would we be better off keeping our str and drake flames for higher damage output and try and land crits/ zerk crits with those skills?

I use smack, flame on AA classes. When i use smack, it crits, most aa die. Some aa classes get 2~4k hp taken off, and i can judge their total hp pool. Others use pdef charms and get 20~100 taken off, i leave them alone. Flame tsunami = timing issue, i am always being healed. Can one shot aa with flame tsunami to.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

punk21790 wrote: »

Ok well I've been a bm forum stalker for a while now n I figured I'd speak up. I'm not fully r9 yet but what about our 100% accuracy skills. Smack and flame tsunami. Is our damage output high enough endgame to rely on these skills killing sins/ archers? Would we be better off keeping our str and drake flames for higher damage output and try and land crits/ zerk crits with those skills?

You're partially speaking to what were discussing without flat out saying it.

Smack and Flame Tsunami have timing issues. Smack with the cooldown, and flame tsunami with the issues I have - Im rarely, if ever in the HP requirement. So they're just not reliable (nor does smack do enough damage) to work over LAs.

So the question is do we sacrifice damage output for another 10% more chance to hit those sins and archers, or just say **** it and CC them and hope for luck?

In raw theory, if we miss 2/5 hits, we want those 3 hits to count. Higher damage means charm jumps and enough damage to finish them off. But if were able to make it 4 hits, how much less damage hurts too much to make those 4 hits count higher than the 3?

Trouble is we have the tools to test this but were still running into an issue of style. I'd rather have the big hits on AOEs that affect every class - than have a better chance to hit only maybe 1/5th of the field better while having lower numbers in those aoe situations.

Plus, the rate of hit % gain vs damage % isn't really all that amazing.

TheDan - Sanctuary

My current conclusion is that it's not worth it to move past 200 dex. The % damage loss compared to % chance to hit gain is almost un-noticeable on AA / HA. The slight change against 2 out of 10 classes is not worth it. Even if it was worth it for those 2 classes, you'd still be losing out on average DPH on the other 8 classes.

The slight crit increase is a little tempting, but not enough to be worth it in group PvP when the majority of your kills will come based off single crits / zerks rather than zerk crits bypassing charm. BMs shouldn't really be focusing all their damage output on 1 or 2 targets anyways, unless you're in a situational moment where it may be appropriate to beat down on a priority target. It's the overall AoE damage that counts in group PvP.

BMs do have a lot of reliable skills that don't depend on accuracy; although they aren't enough to kill targets alone, they do provide excellent crowd controlling abilities (stuns, disarms, etc). Roar of Pride our most useful skill doesn't go off evasion, nor does smack + whirlwind lock. Flame Tsunami is also pretty reliable with a 90% chance to stun, only down side is that it can only be activated at 75% health or lower. Blade Hurl is a 100% accuracy disarm that works pretty well in dropping barrages etc.

Saethos - Raging Tide

TheDan - Sanctuary wrote: »

My current conclusion is that it's not worth it to move past 200 dex. The % damage loss compared to % chance to hit gain is almost un-noticeable on AA / HA. The slight change against 2 out of 10 classes is not worth it. Even if it was worth it for those 2 classes, you'd still be losing out on average DPH on the other 8 classes.

The slight crit increase is a little tempting, but not enough to be worth it in group PvP when the majority of your kills will come based off single crits / zerks rather than zerk crits bypassing charm. BMs shouldn't really be focusing all their damage output on 1 or 2 targets anyways, unless you're in a situational moment where it may be appropriate to beat down on a priority target. It's the overall AoE damage that counts in group PvP.

BMs do have a lot of reliable skills that don't depend on accuracy; although they aren't enough to kill targets alone, they do provide excellent crowd controlling abilities (stuns, disarms, etc). Roar of Pride our most useful skill doesn't go off evasion, nor does smack + whirlwind lock. Flame Tsunami is also pretty reliable with a 90% chance to stun, only down side is that it can only be activated at 75% health or lower. Blade Hurl is a 100% accuracy disarm that works pretty well in dropping barrages etc.

That was the big thing that won't let me drop or gain more dex is that it's only 2 of 8 classes, and idk about your severs but on my servers, most (99.9% or more) of assassins are complete trash, and archers try to auto-attack until purge happens, which is laughable, and usually follows with death. Unless the archer is t3, then they auto attack me because I'm in magic marrow, which makes less sense since I have 17k P.Def and 15k M.Def in magic marrow...But logic!

Point being nobody on rt really knows how to play as these dex classes so they aren't a big deal, and I can just smack them around like dolls since they are sooooo bad on this server.