Which has better PVP potential overall, Venomancer or Mystic?

Colum - Raging Tide

Thread created to move the off topic debate into a better place because I am interested to follow these arguments and don't want the previous thread to get locked either.

The question comes here:

Which class has more potential and skill overall in PK, Mystic or Venomancer? This also includes PK events such as TW and NW - duels arent count here!

Please keep your arguments valid and calm, we do not want to start a fight here, instead figure out which of these classes has better PVP uses and is harder to defeat, assuming both are wearing equal endgame gear and have all their skills.

For now I do not take part into this debate.

Discuss. Feel free to quote your earlier arguments into this topic. I thought to do it but in the end it's better if the posters themselves want to show the most important posts from earlier thread.

b:cute

_Nottunyx_ - Heavens Tear

Mystic.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands

For TW as a veno the majority of your job is to stay in fox form and purge and amp.
(I don't say a veno can't do more in TW, but it's what people will expect from you)

I think mystics have more potential and are still a class really unknow.

I kill way much more people in NW on my mystic than veno.

Veno is a old class that doesn't have surprise anymore and people know all their little secrets and how defeat it, while mystic for the majority of people is only a lame cleric/veno mix with plants, mystic is more than that.

Zsw - Dreamweaver

Depends how you look at it. I classify Mystics and Venos as support. Therefore, their potential comes from the ability to help other people kill, and not necessarily to kill people themselves. Both Mystics and clerics can heal, but no other class have the reliable purges that Veno do. Try killing someone fully buffed end game! In terms of who's harder to kill, they're both equally troublesome with purify proc. Mystics are a bit better at DDing than veno, but Wizard, Archer and Psy outshines them both so I don't really recommend either if you're going for pure DD. So my response to your question would be Venomancer.

Buff_me - Harshlands

I keep hearing that Mystics are hell damn op in solo and group pvp.

Well, I had experience 1v1'ing Myst with full r9rr armor, +12'ed r9 weapon and won 2 out of 5 fights.

Well, due to being uncharmed and having +7 on r9 daggers and 7k hp I couldn't give as much challenge.

But overall I rate Mystic as being better char for pvp.

Ridelia - Momaganon

I used to play veno as my main for almost 5 years in many different servers and versions of PW (starting at PW-MY) but lately (about a year ago) started to choose mystic as main.

I cannot say veno is bad for pvp - veno has purge and a debuff that help people to kill well geared and high hp chars (cata-pullers on TW, flag-carriers on NW) which could be almost impossible to kill without the purge. Also the Lucky Scarab skill is awesome for pvp - range stun skill with 8s cooldown (demon version) - this combined with a pet stun can make a short stunlock - long enough to kill most people. Fox Form and Soul Transfusion can save a veno *** when it is ganked by too many people (HM/MP switch+increased phy def+increased moving speed with demon). And when you see a veno in fox form you never know if you should use magic or phy attack (heavy and light venos can have really good phy def). However veno in human form is not that much of a problem. Yeah, phy def debuff(chance for -100% phy def in demon) can hurt a lot combined with a pet hits or a phy dder on the side but exept that - its just a regular mage without too many suprises. Well, maybe exept Parasitic Nova but it is almost like mystics Thicket.

On the other hand you cannot underestimate mystics. Yeah, we don't have purge (its a bad thing) but we have invigorate thet increase our dmg as much as Amplify Damage. About high def/hp units maybe we can't solo kill them (though it is possible with 3rd fury) but since they are mostly melee range we can easly knockback, paralise, sleep and stun them till a help come. About stun - our Devil pet has a fastest stun in the game and unlike veno pets we can cast it again within seconds (when we resummon it the skill cooldown is reset). Combined with paralise and seal it works like a stunlock. About lifesaving skills - petals (heal after getting hit no matter if we are stunned or not), Energy Leech (increased defence or/and att, immune to stun, possible increased moving speed with demon), Gale force (aoe paralise and/or seal, usually make 70% of the oponents unable to attack) and fast casting heal make us able to survive lots of dmg (and when we die we can instantly get up with 100% HP). We don't have fox form so everyone suppose mystic is going to be arcane armor. Usually it is right and phy dmg really can hurt us and mag dmg - not so much. But our self buff increasing phy def helps to decrease the pain - supposing any phy dmg player is going to get close enough to us to deal more than a few hits before we knockback and paralise him. About attack - we are more like archers than a mage. Of our two very basic skills (Nature's Vengeance + Absorb soul) one is magic and other physical (that combined with the 1st attacks debuff deal 2x dmg). We can easly decide which of them to use without changing form and playstyle like veno do - we just spam the magic att to people we suppose to have more phy def (the mag att may be less att than veno basic mag att but is faster to cast) and when it come to people with high mag att - we hit them once with our fast mag att to get the debuff and then use the phy att one and watch the suprise (the mag att can hit like 5% hp of a full arcane player and then the phy one takes the rest 95% of hp in 1 hit b:chuckle). And we have Thicket that do almost same as Paralistic Nova - paralise, seal, increase dmg if demon.

Overall I think mystics have better pvp potential. But venos have their role in pvp too!

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands

Ridelia - Momaganon wrote: »

we have invigorate thet increase our dmg as much as Amplify Damage.

^ Invigorate don't work in PvP...

RoidAbuse - Sanctuary

Veno.
Myriad rainbow + amp to boost dmg
purge
chi drain 1.5 sparks skill with very short CD
seal skill
stun skill
IG skill
2x anti stun if demon
ability to run with the speed of a land mount so you can gtfo when things go bad
their 2 spark skill with HF effect

Ridelia - Momaganon

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

^ Invigorate don't work in PvP...

Who said so?

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands

Ridelia - Momaganon wrote: »

Who said so?

No wonder why mystics have so bad reputation....

Kniraven - Lost City

creamytoes wrote: »

Hey I am brand new b:chuckle got bored of the daevas game I was playing so I want to try this game. I like competition and even though I die more than I win, the thrill of watching my back while going on quests excites me.

My main question is, after viewing all the characters, I like magic castes the most. I will like to be able to defend myself in the world of pvp without relying on spending real life money until the end game of course. I am attracted to wizard, psychic, and mystic. What would you guys recommend for a fresh meat like me? lol

p.s. Sorry for hijacking this thread for my question but I am not allowed to post during my probationary period. Thank you much!

No. Just no. I'm reporting this to a mod =.=

ON TOPIC
Mystic is the only class in the entire game that nobody on any server has a good enough kill/death ratio or kill count to be featured on the all class list.

Venomancer is featured repetitively and further more is in the top ten.

Venomancers from within the last 1 year are featured in that list, not just those from when it was considered THE op class.

Seekers which were released at the same time as mystics are also on both lists, in fact a seeker currently holds 1st place in k/d ratio.

Time of class duration is not a factor for the reasons stated above.

Aside from all that, with venomancers already holding high standings in pvp rankings, they're about to get an upgrade

Who knows what kind of "potential" increase that will give.

Venos win over Mystic in pvp.
/thread

zoldickun

Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »

Mystic is the only class in the entire game that nobody on any server has a good enough kill/death ratio or kill count to be featured on the all class list.

Venomancer is featured repetitively and further more is in the top ten.

Dude, with all due respect that's not completely true... Don't forget that mystic is one of the latest classes added on PWI...
And don't forget that the ranking list has been bugged for monthes when you are in english language (just try to select french or german language and you will see the ranking list up to date)

Then look on the allclass list (with french or german language selected) for dreamweaver : Erytheia 12, A_Raft 15 but no veno in the top20.

Or look on Lothranis (one of the most recent server where mystics have been present since the launch date) where I play : I'm 8 and first veno is not even in the top 100


So... even if I don't think ratio is really a good way to compare the potential in PVP, you must recognize that your argument is wrong...

Kniraven - Lost City

zoldickun wrote: »

Dude, with all due respect that's not completely true... Don't forget that mystic is one of the latest classes added on PWI...
And don't forget that the ranking list has been bugged for monthes when you are in english language (just try to select french or german language and you will see the ranking list up to date)

Then look on the allclass list (with french or german language selected) for dreamweaver : Erytheia 12, A_Raft 15 but no veno in the top20.

Or look on Lothranis (one of the most recent server where mystics have been present since the launch date) where I play : I'm 8 and first veno is not even in the top 100


So... even if I don't think ratio is really a good way to compare the potential in PVP, you must recognize that your argument is wrong...

I'm using European rankings, i know the US ones are bugged. I'm also referring to kill/death ratio. Seeker which came out same time as Mystic is ranked first. Veno is in top ten. Mystic doesn't even do well enough to get placed

I think what you are referring to is total kills, which i agree would be unfair to the Mystic class. K/D ratio is viable.

Slashedurass - Dreamweaver

Veno obviously.. anyone know RacheyBabez?

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

Who is beeeeeest!

Another one of these ridiculous threads. Different classes work better at defeating other classes. This seems pretty obvious to me, but I'll point it one oooone mooore tiiiime!

Things that make venos nasty:

-purge
-chi burn
-turn you into tiger (a form of seal that can't be removed and drops you from flight)
-damage amplifier
-physical/magical debuffs from myriads
-physical debuff from ironwood
-skill that slows your channeling speed by a ton >not nasty for me personally, I purify it
-skill that slows attack speed and removes magic def buff > I rebuff it, nasty for physical ppls
-low cooldown, short stun
-2 spark aoe seal with hf if demon
-pets for extra damage and some stuns/debuffs
-running speed
-extra physical defense in fox form
-anti stuns
-crush vigor (lose chi when hit) > not nasty for me, I purify it
-natural barrier (reflect physical dmg) > not nasty for me, use mostly magic
-2 ways to recover hp; switching hp/mp (costs a spark if you have at least that much chi), and a 50%/60% heal with a 3.5 or 5 minute cooldown (demon/sage)

Things that make mystics nasty:

-faster spam skill (more magic dps) with slow > venomancers have no slow skills
-a non-chi skill with 250% damage (highest is 100% for venomancers)
-increase magic damage 125% and -channel skill, stacks with double or triple spark
-another increase magic dmg skill (200% comes with anti-stun, comes from leeching storm mistress ) that also stacks with double or triple spark
-pet/summon for extra damage, stuns, seals
-a very strong, fast, bulk heal
-a strong heal over time
-healing plants, 2 of them
-plant to aoe sleep
-plant to aoe slow,-channel,-phy and -magic def > purifying these is a pain, because the plants just put the debuff back onto you automatically, and the evasion buffs on plants make them a pain/time-waste to kill (mystic can put plant back up again too)
-skill to guarantee a crit
-buff to increase wood, water, and physical defense
-buff that increases effectiveness of heals and potions
-absorb soul, a skill that deals very large physical damage that ignores all defense lvls, ignores def charm, ignores reduce-dmg shields, and also takes mystics own attack lvls into consideration; hits like a truck
-sublime transfusion-transfers a portion of potion and charm heals from enemy onto the mystic >trying to outheal this guarantees I won't be killing the mystic lol
-pushback that works in PvP
-leeching devil chiyu increases mystic physical defense 100% and crit rate 30% for 20 seconds
-skill with 8s cooldown with good chance to aoe seal for only 30 chi
-rez buff for group situations is huge


~


Ok, are we seeing a lot of overlap? Yes. Are we seeing a lot of scary things from both sides? Yes. Which do I fear more in group pk? A venomancer. Why? Purge. Which aids a group in surviving the most? Mystic by far, with heals and rez buff. Which do I fear more in 1vs1? Mystic, though neither has great chance of beating me. Which do I have a harder time killing? A mystic by far. Why? Can't get past those super powerful heals. Which does more nasty debuffs? A venomancer. Which does considerably more damage? A mystic. Can they both kill me? Yes. How? Venomancer relies on purge and debuffs to do enough damage. Mystic relies on higher damage, debuffs, absorb soul, guaranteed crit skill, and seal > seal being useful against r9rr because it'll stop me even if my weapon proc on the attack before. Yes, mystics aren't the easiest class to play.

They are both good. In a fight of venomancer vs mystic, I'd place my bets on the mystic. The venomancer would not be able to lock the mystic down long enough to damage through those heals, I believe. In either case it'd be a long fight against ppl skilled in each class.

In group pk, they serve different support roles. The venomancer's debuffs are scarier, with purge, chi steal, turn into tiger, making any squad they are in much deadlier. The mystics raw damage is scarier, and the ability to instantly heal, and oh yeah, rez buff squad mates, makes having a mystic in any enemy squad a big pain in the ***.

Neither is better, they just have different, equally invaluable features. As Zsw pointed out, they both are support, but they do it in very different ways.

Aeliah

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands

What Aeliah said is pretty much correct, but I'll ad a few points he didin't mention:

Mystic also have a skill to know people in stealth mode and pop out stealth the one of our lvl and less nvm the stealth lvl detection. Which is a big advantage in solo or group PVP.
Also I drop plants cause that pop out people in stealth if they walk in the plant range nvm the lvl.

So considering in PVP in the open map where bramble don't work that is a big advantage for mystics cause sins and archers are a big enemy for caster class in PVP.

Mystic have a summon call Salvation, that summon put a protective shield that absorb damage can be use on the mystic himself or on someone else (it's important to use that summon in manual mode, cause on auto he will shield the enemy which is not good xD), can also be leech like the other summons.

Edit: Oh I forgot, since OP want for PVP/TW/NW, veno have bramble that work in TW/NW and let's say people kinda like have veno on their side in NW for bramble.

BungaSakura - Raging Tide

i only do pvp in NW, tourney and TW. based on that experience, veno > mystic

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands

BungaSakura - Raging Tide wrote: »

veno > mystic

^ That always make me laugh... XD

BungaSakura - Raging Tide

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

^ That always make me laugh... XD

ur statement also makes me laugh XD.

Sugarmist - Sanctuary

BungaSakura - Raging Tide wrote: »

i only do pvp in NW, tourney and TW. based on that experience, veno > mystic

I have found mystic alot better in TW/NW than veno.
So Im gonna agree with Bella, that made me laugh.

BungaSakura - Raging Tide

Sugarmist - Sanctuary wrote: »

I have found mystic alot better in TW/NW than veno.
So Im gonna agree with Bella, that made me laugh.

its really funny how i find many mystic is like sin. soo many ego lol.

Oke on serious note. i remember on general discussion bella said that every class has their own ability. and at some point, i read ur statement as every class actually balance. But then i saw in other threat bella also keep saying mystic is alot better. thats why i choose mystic as my main not veno.

i made mystic cause i heard how OP mystic is. after i play mystic, i dont like it. its not my play style i think. i do alot better on veno and i love it. and when i play on mystic. i kinda sucks. i do agree mystic has good potential or like so many people said mystic has more potentional compare than veno. well, u have so many summon without have to buy or leveling it. u can heal etc etc.

But for me, as long u can play a class really good, u can defeat other class no matter how OP and broken the class is.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands

BungaSakura - Raging Tide wrote: »

its really funny how i find many mystic is like sin. soo many ego lol.

Oke on serious note. i remember on general discussion bella said that every class has their own ability. and at some point, i read ur statement as every class actually balance. But then i saw in other threat bella also keep saying mystic is alot better. thats why i choose mystic as my main not veno.

i made mystic cause i heard how OP mystic is. after i play mystic, i dont like it. its not my play style i think. i do alot better on veno and i love it. and when i play on mystic. i kinda sucks. i do agree mystic has good potential or like so many people said mystic has more potentional compare than veno. well, u have so many summon without have to buy or leveling it. u can heal etc etc.

But for me, as long u can play a class really good, u can defeat other class no matter how OP and broken the class is.

Mystic are hard to play and not a lot of people know how to play them, if you are a veno than you probably play your mystic like your veno, like a lot of clerics play mystics like a cleric. There's actually not a lot of mystics playing mystics as mystics. Veno is way much more simple to play than mystic.

I prefer mystic over veno, but that doesn't mean mystics are for everyone, some people have trouble to know how to play a veno so I would not recommend them to play mystic. even if I prefer mystics, I do give to venos what they have, I have a veno myself so to say they suck would be stupid.

If the thread you mention I said mystics was better than venos is the one I think, venos was trash talking mystics saying mystics can't kill other class in PVP saying venos AOE and single damage was better and saying veno vs mystic veno would won, basically saying mystic is **** and shouldn't exist.

In nation war I've never ever been kill by a veno even the ones with way better gears than me, but I did killed a lot of veno, some with **** gears, some with same gears and other with better gears.

I do kill other class, so people saying mystic cannot kill anything have meet really bad mystics.

For AOE and single damage I did said that on HL at the Tiger event (which is about both AOE and single damage) our mystics get easy over 20k points and that's R8 and 3rd Nirvana weap mystics while venos R9 don't even reach 20k. So people saying in PVE veno are better DD than mystic have again meet really bad mystics. (there's a lot of bad mystics in both PVE and PVP)

Even if I personally think mystic can be better, that doesn't mean I think veno suck and are useless. A TW without veno would be a freaking huge mess, while a TW without mystic is not impossible.

I personally think mystic are OP as they are and don't think we need more, but sometime in a way I wish they give something freaking epic that make people think that we are not a freaking useless class that cannot kill anything.

For the fact that mystic don't need to pay for their summon as veno need to pay for their pets, mystic (and seek) cannot get a flyer 3.3 unless to pay 150m or open a million packs, there's no 3.2 EG flyer so for us it's a 3.0 flyer which make impossible to chase people in PVP which I'll admit is freaking annoying and give a huge advantage on other class. It's more hard for us to kite in PVP by flying cause of that.

BungaSakura - Raging Tide

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

Mystic are hard to play and not a lot of people know how to play them, if you are a veno than you probably play your mystic like your veno, like a lot of clerics play mystics like a cleric. There's actually not a lot of mystics playing mystics as mystics. Veno is way much more simple to play than mystic.

I prefer mystic over veno, but that doesn't mean mystics are for everyone, some people have trouble to know how to play a veno so I would not recommend them to play mystic. even if I prefer mystics, I do give to venos what they have, I have a veno myself so to say they suck would be stupid.

If the thread you mention I said mystics was better than venos is the one I think, venos was trash talking mystics saying mystics can't kill other class in PVP saying venos AOE and single damage was better and saying veno vs mystic veno would won, basically saying mystic is **** and shouldn't exist.

In nation war I've never ever been kill by a veno even the ones with way better gears than me, but I did killed a lot of veno, some with **** gears, some with same gears and other with better gears.

I do kill other class, so people saying mystic cannot kill anything have meet really bad mystics.

For AOE and single damage I did said that on HL at the Tiger event (which is about both AOE and single damage) our mystics get easy over 20k points and that's R8 and 3rd Nirvana weap mystics while venos R9 don't even reach 20k. So people saying in PVE veno are better DD than mystic have again meet really bad mystics. (there's a lot of bad mystics in both PVE and PVP)

Even if I personally think mystic can be better, that doesn't mean I think veno suck and are useless. A TW without veno would be a freaking huge mess, while a TW without mystic is not impossible.

I personally think mystic are OP as they are and don't think we need more, but sometime in a way I wish they give something freaking epic that make people think that we are not a freaking useless class that cannot kill anything.

For the fact that mystic don't need to pay for their summon as veno need to pay for their pets, mystic (and seek) cannot get a flyer 3.3 unless to pay 150m or open a million packs, there's no 3.2 EG flyer so for us it's a 3.0 flyer which make impossible to chase people in PVP which I'll admit is freaking annoying and give a huge advantage on other class. It's more hard for us to kite in PVP by flying cause of that.

hm mystic has a 3,2 flyer. well, my friend has it the one on timer specter kite. Not many yes, but they have. although i dont know about the 3,3 one tho. but u cant compare how hard veno to work their pet with the flyer tbh.

But bella, saying that veno is an easy class is also see low as the class. same as mystic, to make veno on max performace is not easy. veno is not only purge, amply. many skill that need to use to make them able not only as a support but also as a DD or to kill in pvp.

as u mention it before in tiger, other events and also in caster nirvana. people wants to accept mystic more than veno. well caster for example, they willing to accept 3 or 4 mystic but none want to accept more than 2 veno lol. they said veno cant DD etc. etc. although veno can get easy squad on normal nirvana back in the days.

back to topic, which has better potential. my answer is which class u are good on playing it. if u are good on veno. then veno has a better potential. if u are good on mystic, then mystic has better potential.

Note: sorry cant explain much. im not soo good in english. sometimes wanna put more. but hard to do it

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands

BungaSakura - Raging Tide wrote: »

hm mystic has a 3,2 flyer. well, my friend has it the one on timer specter kite. Not many yes, but they have. although i dont know about the 3,3 one tho. but u cant compare how hard veno to work their pet with the flyer tbh.

Ok I'll say it in other words, there's no permanent flyer 3.2, timed flyer are not available all the time, I think the last one was at the anniversary, your friend maybe just waited to use it, but it stay that there's no permanent 3.2 EG flyer.

So our choice is 3.0 or pay 150m for 3.3. Which I think is a big issue for PVP/NW/TW when you want to kite by the air.