Why?

FluffyBumkin - Raging Tide

One thing that I never rily understood about venos is, Why cant veno's use claws? They are Foxes right? Foxes in nature use there own claws so it makes no sence to why pwi wont have it. I am curious to know why not. There should be Magic fist just for the Venos

MANray_ - Sanctuary

It's not a bad idea in principle, although I'd rather advocate for better melee stats and bonuses for some magic weapons like glaives and swords than magic claws outright, and perhaps the ability to benefit from BP. Unfortunately Wanmei seems to view Veno as mostly a caster class (their idea of an appropiate weapon is a freaking Pataka) despite its hybrid/melee potential. There probably is some game balance rationale behind this view, as it could seem unfair to players in other classes to allow full melee functionality to veno (we already can use all armor types and get battle pets on top of that) and currently fox builds do involve a trade off in between survivability and damage. Yes, I do realize fox venos can get pretty decent damage but it's not on par with what a caster using the same resources can do and ultimately, regardless of build, a veno needs to use both forms profficiently to reach its full potential.

On the fox argument, let's not get too carried away with role playing logic. A fox will certainly fight with its claws if cornered but these are far from being as sharp as those of animals that do use them as weapons (cats, badgers) and are mostly used as tools for digging or holding on to prey. Cannids bite as their main mode of attack, and even those cultures that did employ such animals in warfare (such as the ancient Romans)and developed appropiate devices and technologies for such uses (eg spiked collars, delivery devices for acid, poison, combustible substances) found it terribly impractical to attach metal claws to their paws... If anything they would protect them with leather boots of sorts... Now, I'm talking dogs of course, while domesticated foxes have sometimes been used for hunting or as vermin control, I know of no verifiable instance in which they were ever used for war or as attack animals, save perhaps in Far Eastern myths or legend. In the West, well, we all know what they do to foxes in Britain...

tweakz

"they use their own claws".

Imagine having claws and equipping claws on them -lol -awkward!

Veno are already too viable as mele dd and we already have too many derpa melee dds that can use skills while melee'ing. When I invite veno to BH metal: I want them for AoE pulls. When I invite them for SoT, or RB: I want them for mag dd. Their rank equips show they are intended to be primarily mages. If you want to melee: roll a melee toon pls.

SweetAnthrax - Heavens Tear

Who would ever spend a grand to fully R9 a veno when getting claws and interval gear leads to much better results (DPS and survivability-wise) at a fraction of the price?

PWE knows it all... And they DO want you to spend a grand every once in a while with their scheduled gear releases.

A different approach would certainly make the game much more competitive in terms of player skill and planning but then it wouldn't be as profitable.

ThaSpectre - Archosaur

of there foxs then they can use the ones they have in were form b:laugh

akosireann

There was a claw glitch before that enabled venos to use claws in foxform, not gonna tell how it's done cause it's a bannable offence but an old facmate told me how (this was when aps nirvy was at it's peak and HA and LA venos were still accepted in most squads).It was the cornerstone of the now obsolete aps veno build back then. MOst bm's and sins kept a veno alt built this way though others did a standup fistclaw type veno (still don't know the rationale of this one, since melee bonuses only apply in fox)

TolanSky - Heavens Tear

akosireann wrote: »

There was a claw glitch before that enabled venos to use claws in foxform, not gonna tell how it's done cause it's a bannable offence but an old facmate told me how (this was when aps nirvy was at it's peak and HA and LA venos were still accepted in most squads).It was the cornerstone of the now obsolete aps veno build back then. MOst bm's and sins kept a veno alt built this way though others did a standup fistclaw type veno (still don't know the rationale of this one, since melee bonuses only apply in fox)

correction, bonuses to melee damage do not only apply in fox form. Rather the fox form is the only form of a Venomancer that has skills that are modified by their melee damage. The human form Venomancer's skills are almost categorically modified by magic damage. As such having a human form APS build that uses Claws or Fists to do it's attacks is not bad per se. All it does however is shut off every skill that would normally utilize a magic weapon (Magic Swords, Glaives, Pataka's and Wands).

Thus it is far more reasonable to build a human form Venomancer with the intention of going with magic oriented attacks instead of straight up APS. This is especially true if you want to take advantage of the pet at ALL. Reason being is because while you can have a pet while using an APS build, your ability to heal said pet relies highly upon your magic attack bonus, and an APS build simply put, does not have a sufficient Magic Attack Bonus to be able to heal the pet efficiently.

Now on the other hand, if you are going Fox Form APS build, that is far more reasonable, due to having skills to back you up when it comes to dealing damage with the APS attacks. But it is still a risky move because you still have a very fragile pet due to having focused so heavily on physical damage instead of magic damage.

MANray_ - Sanctuary

akosireann wrote: »

There was a claw glitch before that enabled venos to use claws in foxform, not gonna tell how it's done cause it's a bannable offence but an old facmate told me how (this was when aps nirvy was at it's peak and HA and LA venos were still accepted in most squads).It was the cornerstone of the now obsolete aps veno build back then. MOst bm's and sins kept a veno alt built this way though others did a standup fistclaw type veno (still don't know the rationale of this one, since melee bonuses only apply in fox)

b:lipcurl I would think not basing your build around a bannable offense makes a good rationale for a non fox melee build... The loss of the fox form phys def is not that big a deal if you're wearing HA or are not planning to do a lot of tanking, while accuracy you can work around given the higher base figure of non arcane builds. Still, you're running into the same brickwall as a glitched build in terms of requiring some minimal mag statting (even if you don't switch to an at level mag wep) if you want any kind of effective access to most of your skills, meaning that compared to straight melee classes you're not just missing out on natural advantages (demon spark, access to BP, etc.) but are getting significantly gimped damage.

In my opinion the more viable melee veno builds are based on mag weps. You can still get 2.5 aps and a very decent crit rate, which may not sound as impressive as a 4.0 aps build but combined with high refines will slice through everything PvE while retaining full class functionality sans the annoyance of weapon switching. And this last one is an advantage for PvP also, which a non arcane build is generally based around.

Pelli - Dreamweaver

tweakz wrote: »

"they use their own claws".

Imagine having claws and equipping claws on them -lol -awkward!

Veno are already too viable as mele dd and we already have too many derpa melee dds that can use skills while melee'ing. When I invite veno to BH metal: I want them for AoE pulls. When I invite them for SoT, or RB: I want them for mag dd. Their rank equips show they are intended to be primarily mages. If you want to melee: roll a melee toon pls.

You're really stuck up, eh?

A veno can be whatever they like. Wanmei just decided to **** them over with a pataka wep, which sucks anyway because of the huge power gap between minimum and maximum dmg of the weapon, and ignoring their hybrid skill trees.

True, they don't have the best melee DD but who's to say a veno can't melee DD? I hate to brag but do I really have to bring up all the times I tanked BH69 and did it better than a sin ever could, a sin my lvl anyway.

As far as I'm concerned, venos are the only class that can easily roll the majority of the builds in the game and still look awesome with it. Take LA venos. Low HP, decent P.def and M.def. P.def surpasses a normal LA class when said veno is in fox form. LA venos still have access to a very viable amount of magic potential while being about to dish out decent melee damage and that's without considering the crit rate and the cultivation. Sage does more damage over time while demon crits more in a LA veno build.

Bottom line: Just learn your darned limit and just take your place in the world. What fun is there to be like everyone else? Everyone's different and it's that difference that makes everyone unique. Venos can be whatever you like and want them to be and that also applies to every other class.

Although, OP, the dmg done with the magical instruments thus far are pretty viable and unlike what tweakz said, metallic claws on a fox's paws is a very lethal weapon, granted it is the right size. However, I don't think I want fists and claws to have a magical subdivision to them yet, it would very much unbalance the game even more than it is now. The only good thing that could come out of it is if venos could finally gain access to BP. They downright deserve it!

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

*sigh* Can't believe I'm posting to a thread with the title "Why?" I try not to post in threads where the author couldn't make a coherent title regarding their question. Every thread in the forums can be labeled "why?" or "just a question."

TolanSky - Heavens Tear wrote: »

correction, bonuses to melee damage do not only apply in fox form.

I believe they are. If you change into fox form you can instantly see your physical damage shoot up, independant of skill usage. This means even melee auto attacks are affected. You can see this with both magic weapons or glitching fists.

Pelli - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You're really stuck up, eh?

Regardless, he's right. And he didn't take to name calling in the first sentence of his post. Veno's are selected for a few things, like bramble, aoe magic damage, amplify and SD, passing sparks... You can be whatever build you want but when people target your class they expect you to do those things. If you can't, or can't do them well, you won't get repeat invites.

You know how **** it makes aps venos look when Im forming a delta squad and get "5 aps veno" as a response? I'm not LF a person who wants to aps 40 mobs a wave. I'm looking for aoe dd and bramble and passing sparks and when I see "5 aps veno" I know they'll have less magic dd than other venos. So why intentionally advertise yourself as less appealing?

I have a few LA aps veno friends. They're inferior aoe dds. They're inferior aps DDs (one is +12 G16 claws so he averages similar to most +10 BMs). As a combo of aoe and single target dd they combine to be decent all around but Tweakz point is they don't excell in the areas that people LF a veno for.

MANray_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

b:lipcurl I would think not basing your build around a bannable offense makes a good rationale for a non fox melee build...

I first became interested in HA aps veno (with the fox form glitch) over 3 years ago. Talking before the new FCC. I had a friend who was a beast of a veno and lived in fox form and for a while it was like gooning, Delta glitching, or pk in SP was; The glitch existed but there was no official GM response. Eventually fists in fox form, as well as gooning and pk in SP, got a GM response. Gooning and fist in foxform became bannable, SP was opened for pk, and Delta glitching was fixed.

My point is for a while it wasn't a bannable offense and was a very neat trick. This was before sins, but offered sin like damage. My friend almost doubled the damage my aps BM was doing, while also having almost twice his pdef.

Since this became a bannable build I stayed interested in fox form but now will content myself with a 2.86/3.33 magic sword HA/AA build.

Regenbogen - Lost City

why...

do veno skills have low damage adds compared to other classes?

are venopets 1shot in pvp?

are curses limited to foxform and 10m range?

cant some new buff (f.e. psychics) be purged?

do foxform skills dont have any weapon damage modifiers?


because most of this has never changed since 4years ago and everything was fine back then

but now we have sins,psychics,seeker and mystics and 70+atklvs everywhere b:angry

MANray_ - Sanctuary

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

I first became interested in HA aps veno (with the fox form glitch) over 3 years ago. Talking before the new FCC. I had a friend who was a beast of a veno and lived in fox form and for a while it was like gooning, Delta glitching, or pk in SP was; The glitch existed but there was no official GM response. Eventually fists in fox form, as well as gooning and pk in SP, got a GM response. Gooning and fist in foxform became bannable, SP was opened for pk, and Delta glitching was fixed.

My point is for a while it wasn't a bannable offense and was a very neat trick. This was before sins, but offered sin like damage. My friend almost doubled the damage my aps BM was doing, while also having almost twice his pdef.

Since this became a bannable build I stayed interested in fox form but now will content myself with a 2.86/3.33 magic sword HA/AA build.

Fair enough, although you guys are talking about different periods. Akosireann is talking about aps Nirvy while you yourself are refering to pre-TB.

And on that certain poster his point is a claw veno build is not viable at all, which he expresses clearly and is consistent with his long standing position of shooting down anything that's not, as Solandri once adequately described it, rabid minmaxing. In all fairness to Pelli, the post he/she is responding to is dismissive and condescending, and pretty much anyone who actually takes on standing up to that poster is usually fed up already after having seem him dismiss, in often offensive terms, pretty much any idea that even slightly deviates from his self imposed standard.

Pelli - Dreamweaver

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Regardless, he's right. And he didn't take to name calling in the first sentence of his post. Veno's are selected for a few things, like bramble, aoe magic damage, amplify and SD, passing sparks... You can be whatever build you want but when people target your class they expect you to do those things. If you can't, or can't do them well, you won't get repeat invites.

You know how **** it makes aps venos look when Im forming a delta squad and get "5 aps veno" as a response? I'm not LF a person who wants to aps 40 mobs a wave. I'm looking for aoe dd and bramble and passing sparks and when I see "5 aps veno" I know they'll have less magic dd than other venos. So why intentionally advertise yourself as less appealing?

I have a few LA aps veno friends. They're inferior aoe dds. They're inferior aps DDs (one is +12 G16 claws so he averages similar to most +10 BMs). As a combo of aoe and single target dd they combine to be decent all around but Tweakz point is they don't excell in the areas that people LF a veno for.

Okay, first of all... I never mentioned aps veno myself. Yes, it is a matter that was touched in the thread but no one I agree with. You can go LA without APS, you know. That's what I strive for. LA venos are pretty viable if done right and you don't need aps for that build.

Next, I can do all those things myself, plus be a substitute tank in case all hell breaks loose. I regularly pass sparks when I see a cleric cast BB or a BM use HF and other such things. If the BM has fists or claws, then he has no sparks, he can make them so fast he doesn't need me for additional sparks. I bramble tanks and others that ask for it but I usually prioritize the tanks in the squad, there is only a slight difference in power with my AOE DD compared with that of a veno with the same weapon and refines but is AA.

Soul Degen is only good if the veno is sage while demon Soul Degen is better for pvp as it diminishes evasion by half for 20 seconds. Sir, I have nothing against you and I agree wholeheartedly with that. Claw APS veno is rather useless nowadays, since the claw fox form build is bannable and it is just a waste to throw away such a good class with a build like that.

But, yes. A veno is before anything a caster but also a hybrid, with a magic weapon of course. Of course, regular non-aps LA and HA venos shouldn't be shoved aside. I know some of them that can deal quite a punch and others that just plainly own my ****.

tweakz

Pelli - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You're really stuck up, eh?

-note to any mod that likes to pm me with **** about me flaming / etc: this is a personal attack. Do you tolerate it or send them a little point infraction?

A veno can be whatever they like.

Veno is veno.

Wanmei just decided to **** them over with a pataka wep, which sucks anyway because of the huge power gap between minimum and maximum dmg of the weapon, and ignoring their hybrid skill trees.

The pataka is sufficient to totally heal a herc with hp buff. It also provides great patk for fox skills.

on't have the best melee DD but who's to say a veno can't melee DD? I hate to brag but do I really have to bring up all the times I tanked BH69 and did it better than a sin ever could, a sin my lvl anyway.

Sins are the squishiest melee toons by far; your point?

As far as I'm concerned, venos are the only class that can easily roll the majority of the builds in the game and still look awesome with it.

I believe that BMs support using LA/HA for extra survival while maintaining high aps which I'm pretty sure out performs any phys veno.

Take LA venos. Low HP, decent P.def and M.def. P.def surpasses a normal LA class when said veno is in fox form.

Does Fox Form give you ability to use BP? Does it add HP like other classes get from leveling or vit?

LA venos still have access to a very viable amount of magic potential while being about to dish out decent melee damage and that's without considering the crit rate and the cultivation.

Melee toons are in short supply?

Bottom line: Just learn your darned limit and just take your place in the world. What fun is there to be like everyone else?

Be different: play another game! Don't pm me saying you're veno and not be able to aoe lure full groups in BH metal. Don't be just another derpa melee in BH SoT.

Everyone's different and it's that difference that makes everyone unique. Venos can be whatever you like and want them to be and that also applies to every other class.

-dont really need to respond here; just quoting to show ignorance.

Pelli - Dreamweaver

tweakz wrote: »

-note to any mod that likes to pm me with **** about me flaming / etc: this is a personal attack. Do you tolerate it or send them a little point infraction?

Don't mistake a personal attack with just saying what is being thought but left unsaid.

Veno is veno.
BMs are BMs, Archers are archers, sins are sins. Your point?


The pataka is sufficient to totally heal a herc with hp buff. It also provides great patk for fox skills.

Well that's weird, I could have sworn my G15 weapon did that job pretty well.

Sins are the squishiest melee toons by far; your point?

I dunno, you tell me? 'Tis not my issue is sins think they can do anything because they have aps. Besides, it all depends on the gears anyway.

I believe that BMs support using LA/HA for extra survival while maintaining high aps which I'm pretty sure out performs any phys veno.

Wow, that must have been hard to figure out. I mean, that's clearly obvious since BMs are a melee and melee class only.

Does Fox Form give you ability to use BP? Does it add HP like other classes get from leveling or vit?
No, your point? A class is judged by it's player, not it's gears.

Melee toons are in short supply?
No, your point to my point? I was saying that they are capable of dishing out decent damage.

Be different: play another game! Don't pm me saying you're veno and not be able to aoe lure full groups in BH metal. Don't be just another derpa melee in BH SoT.
-dont really need to respond here; just quoting to show ignorance.


-dont really need to respond here; just quoting to show ignorance.

Eh, you didn't say anything important except failing at deconstructing my points. If you can't deal with the fact that people are different and may want to try something else, are you going to deny them their freedom of speech and liberty to do so? I'd like to see you try.

Oh, and by the way, I do pull aoe mobs sometimes in BH metal, in case you thought I couldn't.

TolanSky - Heavens Tear

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

I believe they are. If you change into fox form you can instantly see your physical damage shoot up, independant of skill usage. This means even melee auto attacks are affected. You can see this with both magic weapons or glitching fists

What I meant is if you stat your human form Veno as if it were a Blademaster instead of an actual Venomancer, and equip it as if it were a Blademaster. Then you would be receiving physical attack bonuses as if you were a blademaster even in human form. The only difference is that if you were to switch into fox form you would receive a massive boost in your physical attack score from your fox form skill. Though whether you could still use your claws to attack is beyond me.

SweetAnthrax - Heavens Tear

Patakas are the worst magic weapons for normal melee attacks. They do OK for skill spamming though. Personally I like patakas for Wizard for their wide damage gap but dislike on Venos and Clerics.

Each class has a much different approach on their roles. As it seems like comparing HA Venos on Fox Form to Blademasters is on topic I must add Venomancers are far more defensive than Blademasters hence more qualified to take hits and survive. Of course it comes with the price of much limited attack capabilities, be it melee or magic, AA or HA. An even simplier comparison would be among a pure magic AA Veno and a pure magic AA Wizard: the Wizard, for being balanced for attack deals much more damage (be it spike or per second) even with the exact same gear as the Veno.

A quick look at their skill trees tells all about:
http://www.ecatomb.net/skillpwi.php

tweakz

SweetAnthrax - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Patakas are the worst magic weapons for normal melee attacks. They do OK for skill spamming though. Personally I like patakas for Wizard for their wide damage gap but dislike on Venos and Clerics.]

Veno have 2 aoe fox skills that benefit from pataka making RB smoother. Wizards seem to only appeal to people craving the sight of high numbers. For that: pataka might be good, but ticking a charm with a high number to follow it up by 2 low numbers doesn't appeal to me.

Each class has a much different approach on their roles. As it seems like comparing HA Venos on Fox Form to Blademasters is on topic I must add Venomancers are far more defensive than Blademasters hence more qualified to take hits and survive.

Which class is more capable of garnishing those hits? Which class has the ability to employ BP? Which classes amps and debuffs are more valuable in most situations?

An even simplier comparison would be among a pure magic AA Veno and a pure magic AA Wizard: the Wizard, for being balanced for attack deals much more damage (be it spike or per second) even with the exact same gear as the Veno.

Wizard 1-1 dd and debuffs aren't on par with veno, and AoE is very circumstantial. Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying all wizards suck: I'm saying the class sucks!

SweetAnthrax - Heavens Tear

tweakz wrote: »

Which class is more capable of garnishing those hits? Which class has the ability to employ BP? Which classes amps and debuffs are more valuable in most situations?

BP is good but I don't really miss it. What I actually mean with being defensive is that we have lots of powerful defensive tricks other classes don't have. For instance, you can always lure ABA/SOT BH bosses with a scarab as long as you have 1 of these tricks on. A blademaster in comparison is most likely to get 1-shot unless he/she has uber gear and tons of HP. In RB you can even dare using alpha male along with these defensive tricks to spare a tank from death until nova cools down.

tweakz wrote: »

Wizard 1-1 dd and debuffs aren't on par with veno, and AoE is very circumstantial. Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying all wizards suck: I'm saying the class sucks!

Wizards aren't balanced for attack support (debuffs) but for attack alone and the damage is higher. Again, take a look at your spells and compare to the Wizard. It's doesn't take more than a minute to sort things out.

http://www.ecatomb.net/skillpwi.php

Assuming you don't use Malefic Crush, Fox Form Myriad Rainbow or Befuddling Mist for DDing you're only left with Noxious Gas and Parasitic Nova to AOE. You're left with no choice hence these skills aren't situational at all.

Wizards on the other hand have 8 different AOE attacks to pick for every situation. For that reason we can tell most skills are situational because you're always left with choices. The skills are:

Hailstorm
Will of Phoenix
Dragon's Breath
Emberstorm (not very usable PvE-wise, except for the demon version)
Blade Tempest
Black Ice Dragon Strike
Mountain's Seize
Ice Prison