NW being controlled by a few people

Jaabg - Sanctuary

Not sure if i should post this topic in this thread or make a new post about it. The situation require attention and not be gobbled up with other threads.

Not sure about other servers but sanctuary is like this. I am guessing the top 1~2 factions do this. It is becoming evidently clear. The strategy is such....

People in the top 1~2 faction have acquired their r9 3rd cast armour, weapon for most part. Refined, sharded and the likes. If they get 3~5 squads of OP people like that, about 6~11 from the top 2 factions. They can easily communicate on what to do.

The above means, these people are hard to kill under normal circumstances. It can be done, but losses are major. It takes about 3~6 people to kill one of these r9 OP people, in that time 2 people have died 2 times already. By the time you get these people down to 2~3 kills, most people are on their last spawn. This means will be ejected soon from the battle.

The above OP people adopt a strategy called spawn killing. They stand at spawn points, people may not be fully chi up, buffed up and they will die again. Often times i have been caught where everything is in cool down when i spawn and just as i exit spawn protection, the cool downs end and i die. This usually results in people leaving that battle field making it easier for the OP people to win.

The above strategy keeps on working, until they reach the base of the enemy side. The above strategy is applied and these people stay in those lands. This effectively means they spawn kill the people in the 3 lands around the base, keeping at least 1~2 nations land locked.

After winning a battle, these people will not move away. They stay in that land most of the time. When the 3 minute timer is up, they are in that land naturally and the above cycle repeats.

This causes nations to be locked for 40~90 minutes with no hope.

That is not even the worst part. There is no policy against bringing 2 characters in to nw (there are more, but meh, those people will not get banned, tickets have not worked). The above OP people also tend to put their lvl 60~70, non geared afk alts in the other nations. So a fight that is 20 vs 20, essentially becomes 10~15 vs 20. The other side is strong enough as it is, by adding alts to their enemies, they make it even easier.

This results in at least one nation having a really horrible score. 1 Nation will be on top, the middle 2 might be toe to toe, or one close to the top one, depending on member distribution at the start.

This means that a group of 30~100 people destroy the whole concept, fun, challenge of NW for the rest of 1100~1170 people.

The land increase size will help with this regard, but it will not solve the problem of alts that are placed there with the sole intent of lowering the scores of other nations. If by chance alts are in the same nation as the mains, you will see that the nation will have 20~40 fewer people, because the alts are logged out. If the alts are in different nations, the spread of players is more even. Proving the alt use issue is a nightmare, and would require rules, i do not foresee PWI taking steps in this regard. It will be amazing if they actually fixed the issue with NW, but beyond the land number increase, i think pwi will not do anything.

There is a simple request to increase spawn point time and to give atleast half hp and mp. If the time is increased by another 5~8 seconds, people can atleast move out of caster range. As it stands, by the time you are away from the spawn point, a r9 3rd caster will get you.

I hope this is taken seriously, because disgruntlement will keep on growing about such things regarding NW.

TolanSky - Heavens Tear

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

That is not even the worst part. There is no policy against bringing 2 characters in to nw (there are more, but meh, those people will not get banned, tickets have not worked). The above OP people also tend to put their lvl 60~70, non geared afk alts in the other nations. So a fight that is 20 vs 20, essentially becomes 10~15 vs 20. The other side is strong enough as it is, by adding alts to their enemies, they make it even easier.

This is really the biggest flaw with this entire rant. The entire rant as a whole assumes that there is not a random numbers generator that determines what Nations people end up in. Unfortunately there is such a random numbers generator. And unless Squad's have increased in size from less than 10 people MAX up to around over 20 people, the possibility to have an entire faction compose a single nation is far from reasonable. While it may be possible to have a Faction send a single 6 or 7 man squad into Nation Wars to cause mayham on behalf of one or another Nation, it is impossible to accomplish such a massed coordinated effort as you seem to be implying.

Further complicating your claims is the fact that due to the random numbers generator it is entirely possible that if you are sending your unequipped level 60 Alts into Nation Wars in an effort to weaken your enemies, that the plan will backfire and the Alt will end up in YOUR OWN NATION!!!!

EDIT: Also, if you or anyone else is disgruntled about the fact that there are Rank 9 Double Recast Players participating in Nation Wars and for some reason that means that you cannot compete on an even footing with those players.... then the question becomes "Why aren't you a Rank 9 Double Recast Player yourself?" because that is obviously the easiest solution to dealing with such overpowered players isn't it? As the saying goes "If you can't beat'em, join'em."

Asthariel - Dreamweaver

TolanSky - Heavens Tear wrote: »

This is really the biggest flaw with this entire rant. The entire rant as a whole assumes that there is not a random numbers generator that determines what Nations people end up in. Unfortunately there is such a random numbers generator. And unless Squad's have increased in size from less than 10 people MAX up to around over 20 people, the possibility to have an entire faction compose a single nation is far from reasonable. While it may be possible to have a Faction send a single 6 or 7 man squad into Nation Wars to cause mayham on behalf of one or another Nation, it is impossible to accomplish such a massed coordinated effort as you seem to be implying.

Further complicating your claims is the fact that due to the random numbers generator it is entirely possible that if you are sending your unequipped level 60 Alts into Nation Wars in an effort to weaken your enemies, that the plan will backfire and the Alt will end up in YOUR OWN NATION!!!!

While I agree with the first part of you post, there's something wrong about the second part.
First, cause the alt would only have 1/4 chance to get in the same nation as your main. But if it still does happen, nothing prevents you from leaving and sending another one into NW again. You'd really need to have horrible luck to get 3 chars into the same nation o.o And it's not like it's hard to have a few lvl 60+ dummie alts <.<

TolanSky - Heavens Tear

Asthariel - Dreamweaver wrote: »

While I agree with the first part of you post, there's something wrong about the second part.
First, cause the alt would only have 1/4 chance to get in the same nation as your main. But if it still does happen, nothing prevents you from leaving and sending another one into NW again. You'd really need to have horrible luck to get 3 chars into the same nation o.o And it's not like it's hard to have a few lvl 60+ dummie alts <.<

granted, that is true. But the fact remains that the random numbers generator does still exist. Therefore making mass strategic decisions on a scale exceeding the Squad size outside of Nation Wars with the intent to carry them out inside of Nation Wars is an effort in futility if you ask me.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Pro tip: Just tag along with the OP squads on your side. They are usually making a beeline for the enemy HQ.

OP squads don't always work though. Even if you win its very easy to have members of the squad get sent back to base due to DC bug or an instance filling unexpectedly. Keeping people together can be exceptionally difficult.

There are a couple of NW changes that are coming this way though that will make OP squads far less effective at deciding NWs. Just be patient until then.

Asthariel - Dreamweaver

Well, the OP said "3-5 squads" of those ppl. Let's assume they're all 10 man squads. It makes 30 to 50 ppl. The said faction would need to have ALL their members with this kind of gears all attending NW, and all squading together into 10 man squads. Would make 20 10-man squads at the very most. If you divide equally 20 squads into the 4 nations, it does make on average 5 squads per nation. In this case, it would'nt be unbalanced cause there would be an equal amount of "OP ppl" in every nation. But as you said, since it's completely random, one or two of the nation is likely to have more than 5 of those squads while the other 2-3 nations will have less of them.

This being said, idk about Sanctuary, but I dont know of any faction completely full of those ppl with every single person attending NW all squaded together.

TolanSky - Heavens Tear

Asthariel - Dreamweaver wrote: »

This being said, idk about Sanctuary, but I dont know of any faction completely full of those ppl with every single person attending NW all squaded together.

I have so far only attended a single Nation Wars, but I frequently look at the gear that the members of the Top-Tier Factions on my server are wearing (as well as the gear of several other people), and I can honestly say that while many of the top-tier faction members do in fact have Rank 9 gear, and even Rank 9 Recast... very few happen to have complete sets of Rank 9 Double Recast complete with shards and refines. Though I do tend to look mostly at people of my own classes (as of late mainly Seeker and Veno) for the sake of comparison.

Of course that may also have something to do with Heavens Tear being one of the more expensive Servers to play on?

Sassy/ss_ - Sanctuary15

Lol yea on Sanc one group squad beat down fire, another 2 together-ish beat down dark while light beat themselves down...

Sure OP squads are effective, but coordinated squads focused on the flag without op gear are even more effective...


I was with the same group of around 10 ppl locking dark into their base the entire NW and only half of us had r9 gears and i think 1 had third cast...

Ruvil - Sanctuary

stronger and better organized squads that communicate will have a bigger effect in NW? really?

r9 op gear squads that focus on capping flag are hard to beat?

your description of what occurs in actual battleground is off.

1 squad is locking 2 lands, spawn killing to force people out takes too much time and won't help since 100+ replacements stuck in base. bringing in alts to fill up fights? lol no need locked nations already do it to themselves as noobs fill up spots to try and get points in hopeless fights (it wouldnt be hopeless if the stronger member from their nation could get in), why do you think they can rarely win given even 5 minutes of 20 vs 0?

Jaabg - Sanctuary

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Pro tip: Just tag along with the OP squads on your side. They are usually making a beeline for the enemy HQ.

There are a couple of NW changes that are coming this way though that will make OP squads far less effective at deciding NWs. Just be patient until then.

It actually happened in one battle, 8 vs 20(we were the 8 OP people). We won one flag, didn't let the other side win anything. After 15 minutes, more people joined in, and won two minutes later. Luckily all 8 of us were close by, i was next to the clerics, so when a sin popped up, seal+blade hurl. I am guessing they were on vent, because someone would turn around and sin be dead the next second. Just felt like tw, everyone backing each other while pushing ahead b:dirty.

I'll be patient b:pleased. Those towers seem fun, imagine if they are like tw towers, rapid fire and freeze on the spot b:dirty. I would have to switch over to shadow binder pots and not charger orbs.

To all the rest, you fail to understand something. Friends go together as well, may not be in the same faction. There are 2 "crews" that if i see them, i leave the map. Their sole task is spawn killing. The barb does not even bother to use speed skills or apoth, he just strolls to the other side taking damage the whole way b:cry.

TolanSky -

if by chance alts are in the same nation as the mains, you will see that the nation will have 20~40 fewer people, because the alts are logged out.

My complaint is not about the gear, or the tactics, it is about a few people using their advantage and increasing it. There are OP people in other nations but if they are land locked the whole time, they get fewer tokens.

As for gear, it is a progression thing. Not everyone gets their gear in one specific time, the above strategy means, that other people who want to upgrade for free will have to wait longer and longer each time, because they get 1/2~1/4 of the tokens they usually get.

I could go on and on, highlighting all the points everyone raised here that has been answered in part in the post, but i would recommend read it again, think from both sides and see if it answers your questions.

Out of curiousity how many r9 2nd cast +10~+12 and r9 3rd cast +10~+12 are there on the other servers? On sanctuary, there seem to a few in each non tw factions. Big TW factions have a whole lot more of them. Seems like sanctuary is getting more and more of them. If my rap shop is an indication, i sell 1~3k raps a week, bound to have some folks making the switch to r9 2/3rd cast each week.

TolanSky - Heavens Tear

Ruvil - Sanctuary wrote: »

stronger and better organized squads that communicate will have a bigger effect in NW? really?

r9 op gear squads that focus on capping flag are hard to beat?

oh and lets not forget "Some of the OP Rank 9 Squads are obviously throwing the match because they got sorted into the wrong nation, lulz"

Jaabg - Sanctuary

Sassy/ss_ - Sanctuary wrote: »

Lol yea on Sanc one group squad beat down fire, another 2 together-ish beat down dark while light beat themselves down...

I didn't feel land locked in dark at all b:shutup. I was playing with frost mostly though. Didn't come across a strong group at any point, i guess they were busy elsewhere.

Regenbogen - Lost City

gets annoying when 2 nations(2 op squads maybe from same faction) focus on locking the leading nation...b:bye

Angel_Spawn - Sanctuary

No worries, as the logical development of this game goes, r9 will be under 100 dorra in half a year - year`s time then you can maybe stand a chance vs 3rd cast, till then you can make most r9 mofos happy who like to 1 hit people which makes them feel happy since it`s no challenge or skill involved, pay to win f2w.

TheDan - Sanctuary

I don't think it's so much that NWs are controlled by a few OP squads, than it is just the current system over-punishing those stuck in base and trying to get out... Keep in mind there's OP squads that can be trapped inside as well, but the difference is that they're all split up.

The 4 instances bordering outside of each nation's HQ are usually filled with one man armies whenever a nation is base-locked. It doesn't even take an OP squad to defend lands outside an enemy base. It's pretty much pre-made squads versus one man armies when it comes to fighting outside an enemy HQ lands because squads always break up when everyone's stuck in base rushing to be the first 20 to get into an instance.

Even if you have OP players from an OP squad landing into the HQ land battles, they're usually split up from their squad and are thus just more 20 one man armies shuffled into an instance which can easily be dominated by a pre-made 20. The one man armies don't really get squad buffs or assists, so they can be rolled even by lesser geared pre-made opponents.

Perhaps if they implemented a system that allowed pre-made squads to face other pre-made squads outside of base people using a pre-registration system done by the squad leader during the safety 3 minute buffer time, people wouldn't be base-locked for upwards of 30-60 minutes so often.

I'm sure they'll introduce a patch here soon addressing it as Asterelle said.

slamstone

Ruvil - Sanctuary wrote: »

stronger and better organized squads that communicate will have a bigger effect in NW? really?

r9 op gear squads that focus on capping flag are hard to beat?

your description of what occurs in actual battleground is off.

1 squad is locking 2 lands, spawn killing to force people out takes too much time and won't help since 100+ replacements stuck in base. bringing in alts to fill up fights? lol no need locked nations already do it to themselves as noobs fill up spots to try and get points in hopeless fights (it wouldnt be hopeless if the stronger member from their nation could get in), why do you think they can rarely win given even 5 minutes of 20 vs 0?

+1 b:victory

the fact is all nations get stuck....the winning one is the one that manages to get their OP into the chocke battles...which is hard as hell since those choke battles are fed up with low low gear ppl trying to get some score...if these fill-ins would just wait a minute and think ...hey what am i gonna do in that choke battle were that OP squad is spawn killing or whatever....then maybe...just maybe your nation OP will have room to get in and unlock.

why do u think the OP enemy is there at choke in the first place? cuz if they get sent back to base...they will have to wait till the low geared make them room to unlock their own nation....and that is a fact

So_Wet - Sanctuary

this isn't the case infact far from it, controlled by 2 op squads? i was in frost last night and all these so called OP squads were like dark r9r3 just because theres like 2 op squads of 10 people dosent mean 300 people with noob gear are worser off in the battle no no no yo b:chuckle

OontzOontz - Dreamweaver

ITT: Casual players are the greediest and don't give a **** what you think and will **** everyone just to feel special.

Nurfed_You - Harshlands

All these people who QQ about gear or that r999's shouldnt be able to squad together or that we should all have the same gear is really getting old. When the map update comes every nation will have 6 lands around it. Each land has a 3 minute timer after battle. You guys can no longer be base locked, unless an enemy nation actually talks to each other. Thats a funny a joke, a nation coordinating with each other. Not to mention the fact that there will be more lands between the bases meaning it will taek longer to bline towards a base. Though it might make it difficult to stop a winning nation we'll have to see.

And to post on topic, I'm in the top faction on HL we have 1 "OP" squad and hten the rest of the guild. Probably 3/4 of us squad with guildmates. Since I started doing nw i've seen other guildies all of twice. O and guess what, our super OP squad doesnt even win every nw for their nation. Just wait for hte new map, if that doesn't help you sleep better at night call wanmei and complain.

RunningTiger - Dreamweaver

Last night as well as the last Nw, flame had a single squad that went all the way to the very top of the lands and stayed there killing a land and loosing a land in the c1-2 area of the map. Totally cut off and unsupported. The counter on that land was 10. So it is possible that since they all squad together that they are basically unstoppable short of running into another op squad. A very strong tw cata barb with strong cata clerics and support dd is not likely to be stopped. It is bad enough how fast they can be given apthecary.

That said, I am not sure that it is a big deal over all. The best use of the op squads for a nation is probably in squads of 6 and blocking the other lands from base locking. Taking a few extra lands and holding them will generally net you more points than totally baselocking one other single opponet.

Even if you succeed at baselocking another nation- it makes your own nation more likely to have the same happen to it. I look for this strategy to get used less often once more people realize it is not always beneficial.

LoraTab - Dreamweaver

It does not even matter if they are all super op geared, Ten people all squaded and working together sitting in the same factions vent channel and used to working together as a team are very strong and are not likely to be stoped by an opponet it the opponet is a random group of 20 strangers.

Nurfed_You - Harshlands

LoraTab - Dreamweaver wrote: »

It does not even matter if they are all super op geared, Ten people all squaded and working together sitting in the same factions vent channel and used to working together as a team are very strong and are not likely to be stoped by an opponet it the opponet is a random group of 20 strangers.

This. My faction has a guest section in vent with light/dark/flame/frost sections for those of us who want to squad with our nation. getting in vent/ts/raidcall/mumble is the key to winning battles. 20 random people don't work together and most are selfish and are trying to jsut pvp and get points that way while we run the flag down the side and cap

Eoria - Harshlands

Nurfed_You - Harshlands wrote: »

And to post on topic, I'm in the top faction on HL we have 1 "OP" squad and hten the rest of the guild. Probably 3/4 of us squad with guildmates. Since I started doing nw i've seen other guildies all of twice. O and guess what, our super OP squad doesnt even win every nw for their nation. Just wait for hte new map, if that doesn't help you sleep better at night call wanmei and complain.

Ehh...I'd say we have like three other "OP" squads in guild, though yeah, the core squad is definitely the most OP out of all of them.

As for uhh...coordination? Yeah. If we know other OP squads are in our nation, we do try to coordinate with them via PMs and whatnot. We'll take last Sunday and last night as examples. Last Sunday, we had our squad (Cookie squad), OP squad #1 (Cinnamon squad), and OP squad #2 (Sugar squad) in Frost. So we talked to them and Cinnamon squad went to attack Dark and Sugar squad went to attack Light while Cookie squad stayed behind to defend and take care of any other OP squads that broke through. We sent the OP Ice Cream squad from Dark back to base among other things. Then last night, we were in Flame and we again ended up with Sugar squad and also ended up with Peanut Butter squad. And same thing. Sugar squad attacked Light while Peanut Butter squad attacked Dark and Cookie squad defended. Of course, last night was also a case of us getting split up pretty badly partway through, though we managed to get back together again for the most part to take out Frost's OP Gingerbread squad. Then we kinda went and camped Light's base with Peanut Butter squad for the rest of NW and sent people from the OP Almonds and Peppermint squads back to Light's base several times.

This isn't always a given though that we'll end up with two or more competent OP squads and nor does it always work. Sometimes the other "OP squad" is pretty much all gear and no skill and will just get facemelted by any other OP squad that has a modicum of skill. Sometimes our squad and other good OP squads in our nation get ****ed over somehow via getting too split up or people constantly DC or they end up in a war vs. two other OP squads and can't win it. We can't really help that. It's just how it falls. I do have to say though that this thread was pretty helpful.

MANray_ - Sanctuary

TheDan - Sanctuary wrote: »

I don't think it's so much that NWs are controlled by a few OP squads, than it is just the current system over-punishing those stuck in base and trying to get out...

THIS

In the end you can't really ask people to gimp themselves and be less competitive, while some do go to ridiculously lame lenghts (eg alts) this is mostly a design issue.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear

TheDan - Sanctuary wrote: »

I don't think it's so much that NWs are controlled by a few OP squads, than it is just the current system over-punishing those stuck in base and trying to get out... Keep in mind there's OP squads that can be trapped inside as well, but the difference is that they're all split up.

The war outcome isn't controlled by a few op squads. its controlled by many **** squads and brainless nincompoops. I am 2rd cast r9... and I lost 3 consecutive battles because I was fighting next to some unicorn archer... and this is when I am trying to break out of a base lock. And then there was this time when its 20v3 (with us being the 20). I saw our team get the flag... so I head to clear the chock point right before capture. To my surprise the flag kept on moving toward the other capture. I thought I was mistaking and holy path to kill the flag carrier. When I arrived... I saw half of our team yelling at this guy that hes going the wrong way. Worse of all... he didn't listen and actually made it all the way to the wrong capture and even stood there for a bit.

Haila - Sanctuary

I enjoy 20 randoms vs 20 randoms fights more b:quiet

Decus - Dreamweaver

When I first read this thread, it sounded so much like a conspiracy nut to me that I actually laughed a bit.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands

The ''balance'' is ****, often on HL we become with 1-2 nations that own only 2-3 lands after like 30 minutes.

I really wish to know how they manage the balance. (how they select who go in which nation)

BungaSakura - Raging Tide

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The war outcome isn't controlled by a few op squads. its controlled by many **** squads and brainless nincompoops. I am 2rd cast r9... and I lost 3 consecutive battles because I was fighting next to some unicorn archer... and this is when I am trying to break out of a base lock. And then there was this time when its 20v3 (with us being the 20). I saw our team get the flag... so I head to clear the chock point right before capture. To my surprise the flag kept on moving toward the other capture. I thought I was mistaking and holy path to kill the flag carrier. When I arrived... I saw half of our team yelling at this guy that hes going the wrong way. Worse of all... he didn't listen and actually made it all the way to the wrong capture and even stood there for a bit.

i agree with this. tbh, now with tier 3 nirvana easy to get. kinda hard to kill everyone. but 10 organize people vs 20 random people who only care about killing and no care about the flag ofc the 10 people will win. so in this matter i kinda agree with squaded before nw. cause then when we are doing nw, we have good coordination. right now im not in tw faction and i miss tw badly. but with nw i can feel like im doing TW, although u cant compare nw with TW tho

Staryu - Dreamweaver

The lands adjacent to the base needs to be restricted to level 101 and above. It would help with lowbie alts being placed there to stall the flag for 25 minutes and give higher chances of counterattacking r9r2 squads.

Jaabg - Sanctuary

Decus - Dreamweaver wrote: »

When I first read this thread, it sounded so much like a conspiracy nut to me that I actually laughed a bit.

Glad to bring some joy b:laugh.