Kitty Lost but not Found

Azzazzzin - Archosaur

on my server its pretty hard to find a barb and cleric for a BH100 99% of the time, what im curious is if its the same on every server? i go threw about 20-30 teles just trying to find a barb for WS. b:victory luckily i have cleric friends but when there not on its not easy ether.

also im building up a barb just for this reason, what is needed gear wise for a barb to be able to tank bh100's as in snake, cannon, leaf, etc... is it possible with TT90s?b:shocked

Magnanimous_ - Heavens Tear

BH ABA/SOT Boss
BH Aba & SOT can be tanked with anybody with 10k~12k hp and good p-def. TT90 gears is more than enough for a barb. Same goes to RB wave 2.

BH Metal Boss
For BH metal, consider the case where you holding aggro most of the time with a TT90 weapon, it will imply that your squad does not have high dps enough to steal aggro from you. Low dps also means that your squad take long time to kill the boss. Boss will eventually get stronger frenzy, killing everybody in the squad... including yourself...

Now, consider the other side on the coin, where your squad have enough dps to kill the boss. If you try to spam ream with a tt90 weapon, you will not find a glimpse of aggro because the sin/bm just have too much dps. The sin/bm will end up tanking that one.

Either way, if you are going into metal with a TT90 weapon, the best you can do is just keep devour and hope that the bm/sin who has aggro can tank with the extra hp buff, and that your squad have enough damage output (with titans buff and devour debuff) to kill the boss before it goes into rampage...

So, if you want to be the tank in metal, you might want to put priority on a better weapon as well as the AEU aggro skill: Stomp of the king.

y4kuzi

On Lost City and Heaven's Tear it's also pretty hard to find those classes at certain times,
I don't know about the other servers.

Tanking BH100 with TT90? Maybe with high refines and decent sharding.
It also depends very much on player skills.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

y4kuzi wrote: »

On Lost City and Heaven's Tear it's also pretty hard to find those classes at certain times,
I don't know about the other servers.

Tanking BH100 with TT90? Maybe with high refines and decent sharding.
It also depends very much on player skills.

+4 to +5 is fine for BH100 with TT90, especially on a Demon Barb. You may get some semblance of aggro (I did on and off with my barb). Lower powered groups, TT90-R9, you're the tank, enjoy it.

In powerful groups - just aggro manage the mobs where you can, and DD. I'll stomp mobs, run around and FR and Devour, but pretty much in AoE situations I'm comparatively useless unless its a lower powered squad. Sunder-Arma is nice, but it doesn't last long vs a good AoEr. Stop using roar unless its demon for during a pull. Takes too friggin long to cast.

Really at this point I just Arma on HF on the boss and keep DDing unless its a lower powered squad. Whatever makes the kill faster, if the Sin or BM or Wizzie can out aggro me and tank it, its theirs. I'm there to buff, debuff, and do some DD at that point. Use onslaught lots.

Now, Clawbarians are really nice DDs and very flexible for PvE - it's kinda nice. Might still suck in the AoE department, but it's nice for bosses and has the chance to take aggro. If I didn't love my Vit Barb for catapulling I'd be all over that.

Forgot to add: Squads will scream for Barbs in BH100 on HT. All night at times. A Barb is totally not needed if the Sin or BM is decent (or you have some OP other class). Thing is, a lot of the smarter barbs avoid said "OMG WE NEED A BARB" squads cause they tend to be rather fail or frustrating. I know I avoid them unless I know the people, cause if they can't figure out how to do the BH100 without X Class (even a cleric in some cases), theres an 80% chance its gonna be a nightmare.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Sanctuary is decently bad for needing barbs and clerics. I'd say if I'm looking for one I spend 3-5 teles to get one.

Here's the thing: you almost never need a barb. It helps, always, but needed? No. Most the time the reason I'm getting a barb is my squad is insisting on it. You know how many squad's I've sat at the Aba boss for 10 minutes waiting for barb and cleric to get there just to have the boss die in 15 second before bb ever went up and with zero help from the barb besides buffs?

For building a barb, BH Aba and BH Seat are both pure physical I believe. 14k+ hp, tt90, and +5 should do but thats cleric dependant. You'll need strong heals to outrace their strong bleeds. I see you have a sin, so if you refine up your tt99 HA ornies you should be good since that'll drastically reduce the amount of bleed damage you take. Too many people neglect their ornies. Carry a set of magic for the rest of the instance, but at the boss switch to physical.



Like I said, you really shouldn't need a barb for BH100s. Too many sins show up with 5/6k hp and evasion/unrefined ornaments and expect others to take all the damage for them. Here are a few tips to make your hunt easier:
~On BH Seat and Aba I solo about half the instance on my bm or sin, sometimes with a friend, then shout for a barb saying we are at the boss. In the five minutes the barb takes to get there we will be done clearing. Make the barbs job easy, they'll show up.
~On Warsongs, start the timer with a friend, wait 10 minutes, then make the squad with the timer "done." My HA/LA account needs badges and I know squads need barbs so I will park my barb outside of warsong to help, but I don't pick squads that want me to wait 15 minutes with them. Warsong takes about 10 minutes to complete but has a 15 minute wait. I'm not gonna spend 25 minutes for a badge when I'll probably see another squad within 3 minutes offering a timer done Warsong, and complete 1 or 2 more before the squad that waited to find a barb to start timer is finished. 3 Metals and badges, or 1 with a timer...
~Make friends with a strong cleric. Barbs know the good ones and will follow.
~Tank it yourself. Save money on teles and get your sins hp over 6k to tank metal, or work on your weapon to kill Aba boss. My sin/bm/barb squads often go do Aba boss clericless, but I've been surprised to join a couple "LF sin for BH Aba" to find no cleric or barb. You rush in and kill within 30 seconds and there it no problem.
~Don't pull Aba boss back to a bubble force the cleric to follow you in or kick the cleric for being useless. The boss is easy until he buffs, starts healing himself and "loading" for his huge attack on whoever has aggro, but it takes him 30 seconds to buff. Before then he's easy. That's two sparks to kill the boss and if your cleric wants you to pull back to a bubble thats about 20 seconds of that time. Ignore bubble, coordinate your amps, and kill within 30 seconds.
~Aba boss does a huge initial attack with a bleed effect. You can use use an apo like IG to survive it, or AD, or use Deaden Nerves and right after you "die" triple spark to purify and start attacking. No barb needed.
~Take a veno. The hardest parts about Metal, Aba, and Seat bosses are their buffs. Take a veno to purge the Metal bosses frenzy and most sins can tank. Or to purge the Aba bosses self buff and healing, or Seat bosses healing so he dies quicker. Plus... Amp and debuffs does wonders.
~Take a mystic. They're really underrated and I've had a mystic heal my barb just fine with a horrible squad. Mystic+cleric will make many BMs, seekers, or even archers and sins able to tank.
~Apos, use them. Or offer them to a barb. One of the "pains" of Lunar is that my barb uses 2-3 Vacs which is close to 100k in apos, and I know as the puller and tank I'm the only one that has that cost. Morning Dews and other +def apos can allow sins to tank things, but they'd rather spend 20+ teles and make forum posts instead.
~Skip Delta 3. For the same reason above, many people don't want to do stun/freeze waves because they don't want to use 75k in apos for an exp orb. Exp orbs are pretty much worthless. Save the 20 minutes of a BH2 and go buy an FCC and get 3m exp instead of 660k and in half the time. If you make a Delta 2 only, you'll probably find a barb. Make a delta 3 and you'll probably be looking for a while.
~I know this is alot to ask of todays player base but... learn to interupt casting. I've solo'd Metal boss using physical marrow and interupting the magic attacks. Barbs used to interupt more but its sadly a lost art. I personally haven't figured out Seat Bosses timing but Metal and Aba are simple enough. Interrupting the big attacks allows squishies to tank.

Beleni - Dreamweaver

well i dont know about you guys, but it seems every party im in - has a barbarian in it.b:laugh

TT90 gear will do for any instance, but I would advise you aim higher though, since it gives you more crowd control, if your armour/ wep is better.
Roll on Morai Axes ( 101 ) for your barb, and you will have no problem dealing decent damage / aggro !

XRysanx - Lost City

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

+4 to +5 is fine for BH100 with TT90, especially on a Demon Barb. You may get some semblance of aggro (I did on and off with my barb). Lower powered groups, TT90-R9, you're the tank, enjoy it.

In powerful groups - just aggro manage the mobs where you can, and DD. I'll stomp mobs, run around and FR and Devour, but pretty much in AoE situations I'm comparatively useless unless its a lower powered squad. Sunder-Arma is nice, but it doesn't last long vs a good AoEr. Stop using roar unless its demon for during a pull. Takes too friggin long to cast.

Really at this point I just Arma on HF on the boss and keep DDing unless its a lower powered squad. Whatever makes the kill faster, if the Sin or BM or Wizzie can out aggro me and tank it, its theirs. I'm there to buff, debuff, and do some DD at that point. Use onslaught lots.

Now, Clawbarians are really nice DDs and very flexible for PvE - it's kinda nice. Might still suck in the AoE department, but it's nice for bosses and has the chance to take aggro. If I didn't love my Vit Barb for catapulling I'd be all over that.

Forgot to add: Squads will scream for Barbs in BH100 on HT. All night at times. A Barb is totally not needed if the Sin or BM is decent (or you have some OP other class). Thing is, a lot of the smarter barbs avoid said "OMG WE NEED A BARB" squads cause they tend to be rather fail or frustrating. I know I avoid them unless I know the people, cause if they can't figure out how to do the BH100 without X Class (even a cleric in some cases), theres an 80% chance its gonna be a nightmare.

You make me wanna make my bm/sin my main dude....i knew they could be good end game but not that good lol.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Thing is, a lot of the smarter barbs avoid said "OMG WE NEED A BARB" squads cause they tend to be rather fail or frustrating. I know I avoid them unless I know the people, cause if they can't figure out how to do the BH100 without X Class (even a cleric in some cases), theres an 80% chance its gonna be a nightmare.

I usually avoid the "free wine" squads for two reasons. 'Free'means they normally want something, like drops. And Who wines a BH Seat or Bh Aba? The instance takes 10 minutes to clear, or about 6 minutes if wined. The 4 minutes you saved is usually wasted paying 220k and time it takes to make wine and get inside the instance. If the squad is bad enough they need wine, I probably want to avoid them.

Since they changed Aba/Seat bosses I've had a few squads that 1 or 2 people solo'd all the way to the boss before someone wined it, even though the squad was shouting that its already cleared. One of those instances I almost left because I was on my barb, but the person offering 'free wine' wanted all the drops. We were already waiting at the boss and told him so when he wined the instance and still demanded drops.

f31

[
Like I said, you really shouldn't need a barb for BH100s. Too many sins show up with 5/6k hp and evasion/unrefined ornaments and expect others to take all the damage for them. Here are a few tips to make your hunt easier:


your reason is ****...

1st of all you dont need bm or sin for any said instance either.

can be done with psy archer wiz veno and barb no need bm or sin for doing aba or sot.

for bm u could have a sht geared bm and have him time his hf and do like tiniy dd.

but listen to this bm lover who think bm and sin is needed for said bh100b:cry make me qq ppl like him still playb:shutup

Maelael - Heavens Tear

f31 wrote: »

your reason is ****...

1st of all you dont need bm or sin for any said instance either.

can be done with psy archer wiz veno and barb no need bm or sin for doing aba or sot.

for bm u could have a sht geared bm and have him time his hf and do like tiniy dd.

but listen to this bm lover who think bm and sin is needed for said bh100b:cry make me qq ppl like him still playb:shutup

Thank you for your amazing contribution to the thread with all kinds of information backed up with logic, how tos, and examples.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

XRysanx - Lost City wrote: »

You make me wanna make my bm/sin my main dude....i knew they could be good end game but not that good lol.

Heres the thing - well geared, well played Sins or BMs. And in the end? Which do you enjoy playing more?

For SoT and Aba:

On my Sin: He's great for buffs! But really the Sins I've seen tank/solo the bosses are really well geared and extremely well played, and take some charm ticks or cut it damn close to dying.

On my BM: I can solo my way to the bosses and solo the bosses. I have friends who play just as hard with way less gear (Like half the HP and refines) who also can, although the bosses are rough.

On my Barb: I can solo (and do big AoE pulls solo, maybe 1-2 charm ticks) all the way to the boss. I can tank the bosses forever without charm ticks, but I'll never kill it cause I don't have the damage to do so (ph33r my R8r +7 34 attack level powa)

Reality is, as long as you're buffed and decently geared, you can do all the BHs without X class, although depending on the gear level a cleric may be needed. I've done every BH with a mystic for heals on both my barb and BM (but we had full buffs). Metal is okay, RB is fine, but Lunar can be messy with Mystic.

RB is kinda a want to bring a group, especially for wave 3. I have soloed through Wave 4 ONCE on my BM, and it was not easy, but fun. Barb can kinda do most of wave 2 solo, but the rounds will stack up on me. But I also dont have an R9 weapon on him. Wave 3 would be like charm tick hell/death fest I think on my Barb, worth a try one day tho.

Metal is only scary if the boss super-frenzies. My barb lasts about 10-20 seconds charmed if hes in full out super frenzy, my BM gets 1 hit even in R9 getup. I have soloed him once on my BM, I got lucky and got him down during frenzy while base sutra'ed (Pan Gu).

Really as a Barb your biggest challenge is AoE aggro. Just sunder-arma and kill the stuff fast and/or run around and devour/FR what you can. Bosses ain't bad as long as you don't have a super-sin or OP aps BM, or a +12 DoT R9 wizzie/Psy. I've been able to keep aggro vs a +12 DoT Archer, however I'm kinda thinking that was a fluke or she held back.

I ran...way too many lunars this 2x. Had two really good barbs with me, one with R9 axes. He, nor I could keep all of the mobs consistently off the N3 wizzy or R9 Psy. In one occasion where the Psy and Wiz went down (were still not sure how) aggro went to me. And he did Arma on HF twice...still nothing. But I'm also really insane about keeping AoE chaining up on my BM. Not all BMs are.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

I usually avoid the "free wine" squads for two reasons. 'Free'means they normally want something, like drops. And Who wines a BH Seat or Bh Aba? The instance takes 10 minutes to clear, or about 6 minutes if wined. The 4 minutes you saved is usually wasted paying 220k and time it takes to make wine and get inside the instance. If the squad is bad enough they need wine, I probably want to avoid them.

Since they changed Aba/Seat bosses I've had a few squads that 1 or 2 people solo'd all the way to the boss before someone wined it, even though the squad was shouting that its already cleared. One of those instances I almost left because I was on my barb, but the person offering 'free wine' wanted all the drops. We were already waiting at the boss and told him so when he wined the instance and still demanded drops.

Theres drops worth over 220k that drop off the BH boss? News to me. Yea unless its a Culti run, wining either instance is insane.

SoT is two pulls, Aba is 1 pull, APS through the seal and stun **** thats spaced like ****, then 1 pull to boss on that last hall area past the water. When I'm lucky I get the roamers by the boss in that pull too. Same pulls on either toon - stuff dies quicker on BM, but Barb I can park the mobs on me for an hour and laugh from the tickling. It's just whatever style you enjoy.

Jaabg - Sanctuary

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Theres drops worth over 220k that drop off the BH boss? News to me. Yea unless its a Culti run, wining either instance is insane.

During 2x, the drops range from 300k~1m in npc price easily. We do it in a group of 5~6, sins, bm only. Each one gets 100k~300k from the drops.

f31 - No one class is ever required to do any boss. It depends on gear, squad make, skill lvl and knowledge. You can get 1 r9 3rd cast bm at +12, with bp only, that bm can solo full delta. Give r9 3rd cast psy same gear, same result. That is not what is being discussed here.

Personally most of the time i do things with friends, we use a barb for buffing, otherwise bm, psy, veno, wizzy depending on gear are pretty good at pulling, tanking, dd, aoe. In high aps dd squads in warsong, clerics are not needed usually, bosses die fast.

XRysanx - Personally i prefer tanking on my bm over my sin. Sin is squishy granter, but my heart skips lots of beats when i see 80% hp go poof on my sin and back the next second.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

During 2x, the drops range from 300k~1m in npc price easily. We do it in a group of 5~6, sins, bm only. Each one gets 100k~300k from the drops.

I must be doing something wrong as even with a near even split, I'm lucky to come out with 50k after repairs. Not even thinking about pot costs either.

KingClawX - Lost City

Maelael - Heavens Tear

f31 - No one class is ever required to do any boss. It depends on gear, squad make, skill lvl and knowledge. You can get 1 r9 3rd cast bm at +12, with bp only, that bm can solo full delta. Give r9 3rd cast psy same gear, same result. That is not what is being discussed here.



yes but when ppl start saying you dont need input class here as someone did say i can say we dont need bm nor sin in abba or sot cos i done without them once or twice and tons of ff without them to.


just cos some ppl prefer some other class dont mean barb rock out there.

i play 99.9% barb since i made mine and server been less and less carring for barbs and i like barbs.

i made a 99 bm just for fun was nice i have to say but non will ever tell me barbs are not needed cos i can sure say same thing about the rest of the classes.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

KingClawX - Lost City wrote: »

yes but when ppl start saying you dont need input class here as someone did say i can say we dont need bm nor sin in abba or sot cos i done without them once or twice and tons of ff without them to.

just cos some ppl prefer some other class dont mean barb rock out there.

i play 99.9% barb since i made mine and server been less and less carring for barbs and i like barbs.

i made a 99 bm just for fun was nice i have to say but non will ever tell me barbs are not needed cos i can sure say same thing about the rest of the classes.

Your quoting didn't work for some weird reason.

You don't need any specific class, save maybe a cleric depending on gear levels, for SoT or Abba. You could do 5 Mystics and a Wizard if you really wanted to.

Barbs are needed as buffers and catapullers. Everywhere else there is another class that does it just as well or better once a certain gear level is reached. It renders the class impotent or obsolete - and most of all, not needed at that level. I was hoping the devour fix would make a huge impact, but it doesn't.

It sucks, cause I like my Barb - but I'm centered well enough in reality to admit it's nothing more than a Catapuller and Buffer. Does it mean I'll turn down a Barb for a group? No. Does it mean I'll look for one on my BM for BH? No. Does it mean I'll get angry and blame others cause my Barb can't hold aggro for (bleep) or DD as well as another class? No. Does it mean I wont take Fac or Friend Barbs somewhere? Double no.

It's an issue with class imbalance. They are supposed to be the tank class. Tanking means the ability to hold aggro and defenses to take damage. Barbs have one of those two, but not the required both.

KingClawX - Lost City

ur issue is ur a vit build and maybe ur playstyle lies elsewhere.


vit build is and will always be bad amd awesoem cata and buffer but that is vit for you.

get 500 600 700 str and u will see a difference u will start to dish good damage.


its ok most barbs have retired there barb even in lost but its not true we cant dish damage what is true is that VIT build does suck.

BloodTyrant - Raging Tide

can't you solo those instances? well we barbs can!! roll a barb and be happy!!

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Reality is, as long as you're buffed and decently geared, you can do all the BHs without X class, although depending on the gear level a cleric may be needed.

This is the #1 rule anyone should live by when running BH.

Rule #2 IMO is: Start the squads yourself. You're the barb, you have no obligation to the squads of four-idiotic-sins-and-maybe-a-cleric begging for your presence. :P Sure you'll use up a few teles, but I'd say that's worth it to avoid a bad squad.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

KingClawX - Lost City wrote: »

ur issue is ur a vit build and maybe ur playstyle lies elsewhere.


vit build is and will always be bad amd awesoem cata and buffer but that is vit for you.

get 500 600 700 str and u will see a difference u will start to dish good damage.


its ok most barbs have retired there barb even in lost but its not true we cant dish damage what is true is that VIT build does suck.

I agree that the Vit Barb holding aggro is the worst.

Yet my BM still out aggros the strength barbs after the start of the pull or the boss. Every time. Stuff like lunar with no real AoE DDs, the barb may have it for about 15-20 seconds if they Arma on HF and keep pounding with AoE skills - and this was before I got stage 3 R9. Bosses its like forget it, second I'm through a round of 3spark they've got nothing unless they reset aggro. And I did that earlier tonight with a full strength R9 Barb.

That sucks imho - and barbs need their aggro skills increased. Also violent triumph doesn't last long enough and needs a speed increase to go with it. BMs and Sins can outpull Barbs due to the longer and faster immunes - thats lame too.

Haila - Sanctuary

Violent triumph shouldn't be a human form skill only b:cry

slamstone

i got so used with 79 that i don't notice anymore the inconvenience of human form (and i play 60-80% tiger form)


as for the barb shortage...there are 2 types: 1. barbs that remained after demon spark...and

2. barbs created after as an alt buffer etc.

if u go with the 1 option there is a good posibility you'll get that kind of squad member u need....thrust me...we can do wonders (i mean barb as main played after spark....which had time to develop gear experiment builds and know how much his fur can take)


if u go with the 2 option ull get a a buffer or a multiaccount player which kinda sucks.

the reason there is a shortage is cuz the ones from option 1 already have their friends and circles created and dont need random wc...and option 2 is just too lazy to log off from main )


just my personal opinion (and btw vit build ftw)

Crimson_Moon - Momaganon

One of the advantages of having both cleric and barb is that you only need DDs for BHs which are never in a short supply even on the German server.

Baalbak - Dreamweaver

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

On my Barb: I can solo (and do big AoE pulls solo, maybe 1-2 charm ticks) all the way to the boss. I can tank the bosses forever without charm ticks, but I'll never kill it cause I don't have the damage to do so (ph33r my R8r +7 34 attack level powa).

you are doing something wrong then. I solod the aba boss on barb (wiz healing me while the rest of the squad walked back from town). I was able to do enough damage to the boss all on my own with rank 8 +6 / omalley's blessing. SoT I never tried though - dont think you can unless you skill on it. I still don't completely understand the "anti-melee" buff.

Aba I can solo on sin (16k hp buffed, 5.0 sparked with +12 sacrificial assault DDTs) whereas the SoT boss is wicked nasty and would take too long and cost too many charm ticks and potions.

==============

And for AoE aggro, regarding your point there... The skill "Stomp of the King" (sugartits calls it the "raging baal slap") works wonders. It can be used 3 times in the amount of time it takes Roar to cool down.. and instead of resetting aggro - it adds up like an AoE flesh ream. If executed in proper positioning, this skill locks aggro down nicely and if your Bestial Rage is up - you get your chi for demon sunder/arma combo. Its even nicer if you've got your Blood Rush activated as well. Its strong enough to snatch aggro right back from a seeker... what you do to keep it after that is kinda up to how you play. Pretty much though, you'll be able to maintain your aggro against equally geared (weapon wise) damage dealers.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

Baalbak - Dreamweaver wrote: »

you are doing something wrong then. I solod the aba boss on barb (wiz healing me while the rest of the squad walked back from town). I was able to do enough damage to the boss all on my own with rank 8 +6 / omalley's blessing. SoT I never tried though - dont think you can unless you skill on it. I still don't completely understand the "anti-melee" buff.

Aba I can solo on sin (16k hp buffed, 5.0 sparked with +12 sacrificial assault DDTs) whereas the SoT boss is wicked nasty and would take too long and cost too many charm ticks and potions.

==============

And for AoE aggro, regarding your point there... The skill "Stomp of the King" (sugartits calls it the "raging baal slap") works wonders. It can be used 3 times in the amount of time it takes Roar to cool down.. and instead of resetting aggro - it adds up like an AoE flesh ream. If executed in proper positioning, this skill locks aggro down nicely and if your Bestial Rage is up - you get your chi for demon sunder/arma combo. Its even nicer if you've got your Blood Rush activated as well. Its strong enough to snatch aggro right back from a seeker... what you do to keep it after that is kinda up to how you play. Pretty much though, you'll be able to maintain your aggro against equally geared (weapon wise) damage dealers.

I was gonna write this nice response but it got blabbery and rather off topic.

1. I'm a vit barb
2. Yes I know
3. None of that out aggros +12 DoT R9 Faceroll. If you wanna +12 your Barb and DoT it I bet you still wouldn't out aggro the wizzie. If you're talking +5 N3 stuff - sure. But the second you pass into the +10 and good sharding realm your "aggro skills" are meaningless. They need to scale with soulforce or weapon refines like essentially, other classes damage does.

Magnanimous_ - Heavens Tear

+12 DoT R9 Faceroll

That's the essence of your problem. It's like playing a different game... if you think about it from a different perspective... the perspective of people with regular gears. We do what we do because it works for us. What works for us, may not work for you. Well, you can at least try. If it doesn't work, just do your 'lunar ultra-fast speed run to your BM'.... while the rest of us, do our 'challenging omgbbqwtf lunar runs' on our barbs, because barbs is what the regular squad needs to make the run smother. Anyways, beyond a certain point, pve shouldn't a challenge anymore, class doesn't really matter, just use brute strength to plough through the mobs...

I wanted to put all of this another way, but that's the simplest way to covey the message...

Maelael - Heavens Tear

Magnanimous_ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

That's the essence of your problem. It's like playing a different game... if you think about it from a different perspective... the perspective of people with regular gears. We do what we do because it works for us. What works for us, may not work for you. Well, you can at least try. If it doesn't work, just do your 'lunar ultra-fast speed run to your BM'.... while the rest of us, do our 'challenging omgbbqwtf lunar runs' on our barbs, because barbs is what the regular squad needs to make the run smother. Anyways, beyond a certain point, pve shouldn't a challenge anymore, class doesn't really matter, just use brute strength to plough through the mobs...

I wanted to put all of this another way, but that's the simplest way to covey the message...

Unfortunately, you're attempting to defeat my sole point that Barbs deserve a substantial aggro increase on aggro skills in order to fulfill the role of tank in any squad.

Which if you disagree with that, I think you're nuts

The standard of "Regular" or "Average" gears has changed due to NW.

Regular gears is no longer a +5 R8/TT99 world when you can faceroll/afk alt your way into 25-50m a week with 4 hours of work. NW makes anyone willing to show up and play rich (Compared to two months ago rich, anyways) and +10 or better weapons with full N3 is easily obtainable for the majority.

At decent-average rewards level, it takes roughly 3-4 months to full N3 out (counting good refines and decent shards). Prior, at like 4 hours a week money farming, you'd be looking at three years to make that kind of gear.

I'd rather do the pulling and tanking on my Barb cause its more fun. But until thats concretely possible, I log him on to pull cats and the occasional BH. Bout it. He gets to be a god for 1-6 hours a week if I can make the TWs (And oddly, Im starting to enjoy playing the catabarb more than the BM in TW right now).

Just to be sure it's understood - I'm not hating on the Barb class, I'm hating on the class balance issues which I believe is a direct result of gearing. I'd rather it be a perfect world (pun intended) and the Barbs be able to tank for every squad, not just squads that "Don't outdamage a barb's aggro ability" which are gradually becoming less and less.

KingClawX - Lost City

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Unfortunately, you're attempting to defeat my sole point that Barbs deserve a substantial aggro increase on aggro skills in order to fulfill the role of tank in any squad.

Which if you disagree with that, I think you're nuts

The standard of "Regular" or "Average" gears has changed due to NW.

Regular gears is no longer a +5 R8/TT99 world when you can faceroll/afk alt your way into 25-50m a week with 4 hours of work. NW makes anyone willing to show up and play rich (Compared to two months ago rich, anyways) and +10 or better weapons with full N3 is easily obtainable for the majority.

At decent-average rewards level, it takes roughly 3-4 months to full N3 out (counting good refines and decent shards). Prior, at like 4 hours a week money farming, you'd be looking at three years to make that kind of gear.

I'd rather do the pulling and tanking on my Barb cause its more fun. But until thats concretely possible, I log him on to pull cats and the occasional BH. Bout it. He gets to be a god for 1-6 hours a week if I can make the TWs (And oddly, Im starting to enjoy playing the catabarb more than the BM in TW right now).

Just to be sure it's understood - I'm not hating on the Barb class, I'm hating on the class balance issues which I believe is a direct result of gearing. I'd rather it be a perfect world (pun intended) and the Barbs be able to tank for every squad, not just squads that "Don't outdamage a barb's aggro ability" which are gradually becoming less and less.

i am sorry you feel that way but i am sure my non r9 woudl aout agro ur barbs easy if ur a vit cata barb only.

about the whole +12 dot thingy if u dont have a +12 dot fully r9 2rd cast barb urself isnt this all pointless.
why would a barb out agro cash shopping of the extreme dds.

i stolen agro from a full r9 archer +10 in lost city on the nv run.
i stolen agro from a r9 sin on the sin i only saw his daggs and he was gratefull cos he tho he was goan die.
that was when i was only 2nd cast nv +10 with serk.

also if u dont have stomp of the king new agro AOE skill from kitty form now we know why u fail.

i can say i cant kill as fast as a 5aps player but i can at least keep agro when i feel like having it.

anyways talking to u is pointless cos u have the mentality of a 8 year old r9 mentality.

i feel sorry for you i play pwi i dont play r9 b:bye.

and scrap ur vit build it sUx

Magnanimous_ - Heavens Tear

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Unfortunately, you're attempting to defeat my sole point that Barbs deserve a substantial aggro increase on aggro skills in order to fulfill the role of tank in any squad.

Which if you disagree with that, I think you're nuts

The standard of "Regular" or "Average" gears has changed due to NW.

Regular gears is no longer a +5 R8/TT99 world when you can faceroll/afk alt your way into 25-50m a week with 4 hours of work. NW makes anyone willing to show up and play rich (Compared to two months ago rich, anyways) and +10 or better weapons with full N3 is easily obtainable for the majority.

At decent-average rewards level, it takes roughly 3-4 months to full N3 out (counting good refines and decent shards). Prior, at like 4 hours a week money farming, you'd be looking at three years to make that kind of gear.

I'd rather do the pulling and tanking on my Barb cause its more fun. But until thats concretely possible, I log him on to pull cats and the occasional BH. Bout it. He gets to be a god for 1-6 hours a week if I can make the TWs (And oddly, Im starting to enjoy playing the catabarb more than the BM in TW right now).

Just to be sure it's understood - I'm not hating on the Barb class, I'm hating on the class balance issues which I believe is a direct result of gearing. I'd rather it be a perfect world (pun intended) and the Barbs be able to tank for every squad, not just squads that "Don't outdamage a barb's aggro ability" which are gradually becoming less and less.

So, I was reading this new thread on the general forum, and it got me to rethink of the perspective I was taking on the subject of aggro holding.

The reason why I said that you were playing a different game is that: in situations like full lunar pulls, I, as many other barbs, plays a 'game of survival' rather than 'a game of trying to get aggro back'. Why 'game of survival'? It simply because I spend a lot of concentration trying to watch & maintain my hp bar, like watching the charm ticks, watching the cornered beast ticks, picking on cleric's weapon or looking forward to the next cooldown on solid shield/invoke, even inside BB. I can easily point out 1 barb out of 2 from my 'old' faction that doesn't like to do lunar, because of accumulated bad experiences (which ranges from charm r@pe, squad wipes, etc... ) I assumed that considering that you have a lot more def lvl and hp, survival becomes a secondary instinct after your first invoke following a full pull. I also assumed that you experienced lunar differently because you graduated lvl 100 with tons of gears waiting in stash. My early lunar runs was with 15k hp and substandard m-def, struggling with 'mini'-pulls, with multiple-deaths per run. Every player that played their first main as barb, would have gone with the similar experience: the challenge of getting those lunar full pulls done. Those rough experiences taught me many things, from choosing the right gear, getting new skills, building my first end-game genie, etc..

Going back to the topic of aggro... the role of barb is and will always be the same: 'to keep the squad safe'. However, the traditional way of doing it, that is, trying to keep aggro all the time, is obsolete. The key is to use your aggro resources at the correct time rather than just face-rolling every key on cooldown. It's true all DD are now getting better weapons and refines. It is also true that some of them can tank the hits or at least survive 10 sec in BB. The key to keep your DD safe is to predict preemptively who is going to steal aggro and watch his hp in particular for signs of upcoming death. The key is to reset aggro just when someone is about to die then, immediately build a substantial amount aggro by stomping, or using sunder-arma; thus, giving a solid 10~15 sec aggro time, enough for the DD to recover HP, charm tick cd or control their damage. Trying to hold aggro all the time will only result in premature usage of skills and depleting your genie by trying to ToP/TM with arma (no more energy to use alpha male). The end-result is usually using roar, followed by nothing much (because everything else is on cd) and you can only buy 5sec for the DD before he/she dies. I usually use 2~4 aggro resets (roar/alpha/stomp) to keep that guy alive before the mobs starts dying in a full pull. But sometimes, there are always people who are asking to die... last resort is to spam slam like a bad m0fo.

I don't think barb really 'need' a substantial amount of aggro boost. Just have to find new ways of doing things as the game evolve. Nonetheless, the 'trend' is that every major expansion, barbs are getting some new aggro skill or boost... like the last 2 expansions... just be patient...

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Magnanimous_ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

It's true all DD are now getting better weapons and refines. It is also true that some of them can tank the hits or at least survive 10 sec in BB. The key to keep your DD safe is to predict preemptively who is going to steal aggro and watch his hp in particular for signs of upcoming death. The key is to reset aggro just when someone is about to die then, immediately build a substantial amount aggro by stomping, or using sunder-arma; thus, giving a solid 10~15 sec aggro time, enough for the DD to recover HP, charm tick cd or control their damage.

This is pretty accurate

I know the thread you are talking about and I didn't bother to respond because I'm torn. More barb aggro would be great, but I've also seen the complaints about the "holy triad" in WoW where aggro is pretty solid. As a result cleric's spam heal one person, DDs spam dd, and barbs aggro. As it should be right? Well, it leave little variation for changes in the squad and sounds boring. If my DD characters never had to worry about getting aggro I wouldn't rib strike, focused mind, or Deaden Nerves. My Bm wouldn't watch for aggro change so he could demon Bell. Cleric's could go on macro and "pro" would be a matter of heal strength rather than skill. And we would miss those fun "oh sht" moments that really make instance memorable and fun.

So I both agree that Barbs need an aggro boost and am not sure if I want it. As it is, DDs can tank just fine. Its more a matter do they want to? It also encourages equal growth of gear. We've seen the Sins with +2 armor refine and +10 weapons. T

There also is a slight balance of killing and aggroing for dd thats fun to time. You used Lunar mobs as your example, which often have 1m+ hp. My archer is squishy, so I don't want to pull aggro on all 20 mobs in a pull, but I can tank 5 just fine with bb keeping my hp full. So I start out dding a little slow. Then I increase as a few die. Then I go all out when there are about 10 left. By the time I pull aggro on the remaining mobs a few should be dead and the rest I can tank. I'm not mad at the barb for losing aggro since I planned it that way. Its faster if I dd to the max as long as I can also tank.

I'm a little opposite from you in that I rarely look at my hp once bb is up. I actually died in Lunar a few weeks ago because I had a squad with a great cleric but poor dd and the mobs took forever to die, but the squad had both a mystic and a veno and they kept sealing the mobs and making them run, then they'd stay ranged and start doing magic attacks. I had bb and was surviving fine, hp not moving so I was focusing on holding aggro, but the longer we took the more mobs became magic and suddenly I'd die. Really, I should have let aggro of a few mobs scrape off onto the casters since they can tank them better.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

cleric's spam heal one person, DDs spam dd, and barbs aggro.

So I both agree that Barbs need an aggro boost and am not sure if I want it. As it is, DDs can tank just fine. Its more a matter do they want to? It also encourages equal growth of gear. We've seen the Sins with +2 armor refine and +10 weapons.

Kinda a response to both Saku and Mag.

Tanking = Aggro control, Pulling, and Surviving.

I want my barbs aggro while DDs spam dd while clerics heal back. I want a quick, clean, controlled run where everyone does their role and it works out well. We get our exp/loot/quest ****, and gtfo or repeat. I was fine and happy with this in Frost until level 92 when I couldn't keep up as well anymore. It was fun as hell, and never got old.

I'm a fan of efficiency. At high levels with high end gear, the barbs can't contribute the same amount of DD, nor Aggro. Concept wise Barb's aren't supposed to really DD. They're supposed to tank. So I say give them more aggro generation - especially in AoE situations.

I know of a few barbs that if I don't go extreme full out (Mire, HF, AoE chains) they catch aggro in AoE situations. They will do resets, but again thats like Christmas for me as I can rebuild aggro the same exact way over the DDs. Single target, a good sin has it on the boss, hands down. Otherwise I'll take it and not give it back. The Barb can do whatever they want, but APS spam with +12 and DoTs is extremely OP.

In terms of new ways, Id love if Raging Slap would carry over to PvE and be all in range. It would not increase the aggro like *I* would want for my barb, but it would provide another option for crowd control making Barbs more viable for end game PvE.

Lastly, in a good OP squad - if everything dies from HF+Arma+DD Ultis in like 9 seconds, you could say who cares. But at that point you're a devour and arma bot. Do you really want that? I quit my seeker cause vortex botting got boring.

tweakz

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I'm a fan of efficiency. At high levels with high end gear, the barbs can't contribute the same amount of DD, nor Aggro. Concept wise Barb's aren't supposed to really DD. They're supposed to tank. So I say give them more aggro generation - especially in AoE situations.

Concept wise you're playing the wrong game. Barbs help my other toons tank in multiple ways: Buffs, Devour, Frighten, Alacrity, Sage Roar.

In terms of new ways, Id love if Raging Slap would carry over to PvE and be all in range. It would not increase the aggro like *I* would want for my barb, but it would provide another option for crowd control making Barbs more viable for end game PvE.

There is no other class that is as much called for as Barb. I tend to run my barb last for BH's because it's so damned easy to get in a squad on it. I also rage quit so much easier on it.

Lastly, in a good OP squad - if everything dies from HF+Arma+DD Ultis in like 9 seconds, you could say who cares. But at that point you're a devour and arma bot. Do you really want that? I quit my seeker cause vortex botting got boring.

Do you really feel like enabling 5aps 5k hp and almost 0 def derpa sins to get their BH100s done?