Base STR

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

http://pwcalc.com/aea033ea35389415

(PWcalc is weird; the claws show up with red STR even though there is 146 STR)

so...94 base STR, +52 from gears w/ decent likelihood of the ring engravings giving enough, +10 STR tome until I save up for Pan Gu and then it's just 1 extra STR on a ring and it'll be good

No need to show a bow build since I can wear any bow

Can wear everything up to R9, and even then it's the matter of +1 STR on some odd ring/neck engrave

thoughts?

Is there anything I could be doing better?

_Skai_ - Raging Tide

Clawcher builds aren't that viable anymore nowadays in my opinion. If you can wear Rank9 bow, then that already out-DPS's Deicide claws with the same equipment.

qz8

looks fine to me, just keep in mind you'll have to do a lot of clicking when switching back to your rank 9 bow and stuff(assuming you have the set). and about claw archers not being a viable choice, not true. chi building becomes very easy and you can continuously spark since 3 sparks come by easily. im talking about pve, pvp claw archers are laughable b:chuckle anyways if you are concerned about dps, you can upgrade to g15/g16 claws since raptures are easy to get now (also 146 str req!).

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

It will be quite a while before I get R9, though...

I just want to put Clawcher out as an option/farming tool for me; as for R9, well, when I get it I will stash whatever claws I have down to a BM or something, but mainly 94 STR gives me that nice round 420 base DEX

(this is my first character so I can't afford to just make a BM/sin alt to farm TT

Decus - Dreamweaver

_Skai_ - Raging Tide wrote: »

Clawcher builds aren't that viable anymore nowadays in my opinion. If you can wear Rank9 bow, then that already out-DPS's Deicide claws with the same equipment.

That depends on the number of sparks required. As g16 claws require the same str as deicides, there is really no reason not to have claws.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Claw still has some uses. A lot of it is more about permaspark gameplay than the DPS. 3 seconds invulnerable + self purify + 20% heal every 15 seconds is very useful. Sparking is the only good way to heal as an archer so this helps you solo or survive more stuff. There is also some fun skill involved with proper spark timing to block debuffs.

Using a bow to dps feels a lot more chi starved as you are constantly spamming genie skills / apoth / awaken to feed demon spark. Maxing bow DPS ends up being somewhat constrained by timing issues which ironically gives you less freedom in your actions. With claw you have so much chi that spare genie/apoth/spare chi can be used for other things.

Farming with archer is pretty good since the update. BV plays a larger role now in farming since it has a much shorter CD and non-nirvana bosses suffer the full HP debuff. Also non-Nirvana instances tend to have a healthy mix of mobs and bosses which is where the versatility of a 5.0 archer shines over other classes.

I really find DPS arguments against 5.0 archer tend to be overblown though since the damage is pretty much the same as a BM using the same weapon. A G16 claw archer has roughly the same DPS as a G15 zerk sin. The (now cheap) archer rank 9 set is one of the only rank 9 sets that come with -int so there is good synergy there. I can only imagine what kind of beast a r9 third cast archer with a recast warsoul claw can be (archer can do 5.0 warsoul with 3/5 R9 bonus).

Still with the ease of farming tokens in NW, APS-farming as a whole has been diminished. There are still some fun things to do like card bosses, AEU, and warsong though.

Badazmofo - Dreamweaver

Claw is still quite useful. I myself have been a claw archer for a very long time, most of which it was my only farming toon and i did quite fine.

As it is now after aquireing my g16 sling ive been playing around to see how i could maximize dps, so have been useing claws on a boss => leap => demon spark => attack untill demon spark runs out => leap back to the boss.

Of course it does not always play out like that sometimes you may get sealed or stunned ect but it is quite fun to see the reactions you get bounceing back and forth on a boss.

y4kuzi

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Is there anything I could be doing better?

Trash Deicides, or make a BM. You're an Archer.
Go R9 instead.

Decus - Dreamweaver

y4kuzi wrote: »

Trash Deicides, or make a BM. You're an Archer.
Go R9 instead.

Why make a BM if one enjoys playing their archer and the flexibility of having a pair of claws? Your advice could not be any more useless and one-sided.

y4kuzi

Decus - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Why make a BM if one enjoys playing their archer and the flexibility of having a pair of claws? Your advice could not be any more useless and one-sided.

What's the use of making an Archer if you're not being an Archer?
Think again if you think my advice is useless.

http://pwcalc.com/aea033ea35389415
vs.
http://pwcalc.com/5575a1cab326871c

Around 5 times higher physical attack, plus an extra +30 attack lvl, +5 defense lvl,
more accuracy and a few extra crit rate. But it's useless. Yeah.


I'm re-rolling a Psychic with dual-hammers, brb.

Decus - Dreamweaver

How are those comparable examples? Archers can match the DPS of a BM (do the math) whereas those two cannot say the same. Flawed logic much?

If you want to argue intention, then, to be an archer I should shoot at things from point-blank range because clearly all archers do that? Why have some skills that don't require a ranged weapon, then?

There is NO reason not to have claws unless you are short on money and cannot afford it. It doesn't mean I'd never use my bow. Apparently people think clawarcher = never uses bow, as you are implying. (And DPS/chi gain is abysmal with just a bow, so arguing that it 'gimps' DPS is a poor argument as well.)

y4kuzi

Decus - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Apparently people think clawarcher = never uses bow, as you are implying.

I never said that.

I rather have a few extra crits, higher base damage, more attack and defense lvl and more accuracy.
I prefer DPH. That is my opinion. You don't agree, so be it. Opinions are meant to be different.

Decus - Dreamweaver wrote: »

How are those comparable examples?

Seriously?

qz8

y4kuzi wrote: »

I never said that.

I rather have a few extra crits, higher base damage, more attack and defense lvl and more accuracy.
I prefer DPH. That is my opinion. You don't agree, so be it. Opinions are meant to be different.

Still don't see why you insist on limiting archers to one weapon path. Higher damage and all that stuff is a no-brainer when equipping a bow. Sure you lose damage when using claws, but new possibilities open (read all the previous posts by others). And comparing the r9 bow to deicide claws really is a bad comparison...it's like apples to oranges.

Don't get me wrong, I believe archers should take full advantage of their bows and center their playing style around bows, I just reason that since the build for claws/fists are achievable for any archer, why not incorporate them?

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

y4kuzi wrote: »

What's the use of making an Archer if you're not being an Archer?
Think again if you think my advice is useless.

http://pwcalc.com/aea033ea35389415
vs.
http://pwcalc.com/5575a1cab326871c

Around 5 times higher physical attack, plus an extra +30 attack lvl, +5 defense lvl,
more accuracy and a few extra crit rate. But it's useless. Yeah.


I'm re-rolling a Psychic with dual-hammers, brb.

Unrefined deicide with no demon spark. Ya that's how people use 5.0.

y4kuzi

qz8 wrote: »

Still don't see why you insist on limiting archers to one weapon path.

I never said that.
However, you would be surprised by how many Archers I see using Claws as their primary weapon.
Some even don't have their bow anymore.

What's wrong with these people.
I was giving my opinion on what's better.

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Unrefined deicide with no demon spark. Ya that's how people use 5.0.

What? I don't see the connection with refines and demon spark.

augustfinknottle

y4kuzi wrote: »

What's wrong with these people.
I was giving my opinion on what's better.

You were not just giving your opinion on what's better. You said "Trash Deicides, or make a BM. You're an Archer. Go R9 instead."

That's not giving your opinion on what's better, that's being a jerk. You gave absolutely no point other than the old and lame "want claws, make a bm QQ", followed by the very unrealistic "go R9 instead", cause obviously everyone goes R9 on every toon they have. "Wanna have all classes? Make them all R9, cause that's all that matters."

Maybe - just maybe - you should consider you're talking to people who might not 1) want to spend money in game, 2) play just for the lulz and for hanging out with friends.

y4kuzi wrote: »

What? I don't see the connection with refines and demon spark.

They are both used by apsers pretty much 100% of time, that's the connection.

As an APS person, your common status will be this: http://pwcalc.com/3ded9856d2fe4c86 (sparked, +10 deicide)

While as a bow archer, your most common status will be this: http://pwcalc.com/c5773dfd0d6a6f3c (non sparked, +10 bow with 2 gems)

That's the whole point of aps, being perma-sparked to largely boost damage output per second.

y4kuzi

augustfinknottle wrote: »

You were not just giving your opinion on what's better. You said "Trash Deicides, or make a BM. You're an Archer. Go R9 instead."

That is my opinion.

augustfinknottle wrote: »

You gave absolutely no point other than the old and lame "want claws, make a bm QQ", followed by the very unrealistic "go R9 instead", cause obviously everyone goes R9 on every toon they have. "Wanna have all classes? Make them all R9, cause that's all that matters."

What's unrealistic about R9?
And your statement of having all casses R9 is a pretty waste.
You think R9 is all that matters? I don't. Topicstarter mentioned R9.

augustfinknottle wrote: »

Maybe - just maybe - you should consider you're talking to people who might not 1) want to spend money in game, 2) play just for the lulz and for hanging out with friends.

I did. I am one of those people too.

augustfinknottle wrote: »

They are both used by apsers pretty much 100% of time, that's the connection.

As an APS person, your common status will be this: http://pwcalc.com/3ded9856d2fe4c86 (sparked, +10 deicide)

While as a bow archer, your most common status will be this: http://pwcalc.com/c5773dfd0d6a6f3c (non sparked, +10 bow with 2 gems)

That's the whole point of aps, being perma-sparked to largely boost damage output per second.

All true, except that APS is overrated nowadays.
It ruined many aspects of the game.
Believe it or not, one time I saw someone calling for a 5.0 APS Sin for BH51. I mean, seriously?

augustfinknottle

y4kuzi wrote: »

That is my opinion.

And a very jerk-y one. Compare what you said to what Skai said and see the difference between giving an opinion and spewing jerkassery.

y4kuzi wrote: »

What's unrealistic about R9?
And your statement of having all casses R9 is a pretty waste.
You think R9 is all that matters? I don't. Topicstarter mentioned R9.

What's unrealistic about R9 is that it's not exactly the most affordable gear in game, especially now that cannies and raptures dropped so much as to make nirvana gears amazingly cheap. By it not being exactly cheap, it's prohibitive to most people as well.

When OP mentioned R9, she mentioned that this amount of str was enough to use R9 later on, btw. It was not as in "should I use this or R9?" If she can have both, why choose only one?

y4kuzi wrote: »

All true, except that APS is overrated nowadays.

It is and it isn't. It's much less overrated than it was a year ago, for instance, when the bulk of archers and barbs (and even some venos) were going aps build. These days, I think it's safe to say that far less than 50% of the barbs and archers go aps, and the number of venos doing it is pretty negligible. Even pure-axe bms are coming to life. Doesn't mean APS is useless, though. APS is still the fastest/most efficient way to kill bosses fast.

y4kuzi

augustfinknottle wrote: »

When OP mentioned R9, she mentioned that this amount of str was enough to use R9 later on, btw. It was not as in "should I use this or R9?" If she can have both, why choose only one?

Ah, my bad. I thought she had R9 and choosed Deicides over it.

And yeah, APS is indeed good for PVE, but if she would have a R9 bow,
it would be better to use that one.

I have seen an Archer with R9 bow solo kill Asoteric Runewolf within 1 spark duration,
whereas Deicides cannot do that.
He said he was 1.43 APS sparked, although I am not sure if that is possible.

That is why I would choose R9 weapon over Deicide.

Badazmofo - Dreamweaver

y4kuzi wrote: »

I have seen an Archer with R9 bow solo kill Asoteric Runewolf within 1 spark duration,
whereas Deicides cannot do that.
He said he was 1.43 APS sparked, although I am not sure if that is possible.

It is possible to hit 1.43, and deicides vs a r9 bow in a single spark is still not fair comparison. In a shot fight a r9 bow will win, however in a prolonged fight the deicides will win because the bow will run out of steam so to speak.

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

eh...saying that I'll use claws is different from saying that I'm gonna occult-ice triple spark twitch in pvp, lol

Motherlover - Lost City

I'll borrow this thread a bit, as its on the same subject.
I've made a new archer, its currently lvl 30. I wonder, at what lvl would it be good to start adding str for claws? I see no point in using claws until at least lvl 95 (Deicides) or even 99 when the aps is better.
So, as I wanna max my dmg with bow up to that point, when should I start adding the extra Str?

EDIT

That's wierd... My avatar changed from Sin to archer, even tho the toon I'm posting from is Sin o.o

Badazmofo - Dreamweaver

Most archers carry a pair of fist on them from lvl 1 on, you dont have to stat a lot right away its fine to wear a pair of low lvl fists just for when mobs get in too close.

I belive most archers begin to really invest in str for fist at around lvl 70 which will let you wear a warsoul of earth as well as FC gold fist when you hit 85. But there is no real exact level to start its personal preferance for the most part.

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

IMO, not until 100

Your range, knockback, and controls can keep a regular mob at-level from even getting into casting range with time enough to cast.

Fists will never out-DD bows, not even at point blank range, unless you're at a decent aps, which you won't be until 100, so just use pure ranged until 100 and then consider fists

and like my first post shows you don't even need 100 str to use G16 claws so yea, no need to add extra STR for fists

Vindis - Dreamweaver

Also of note are skills you can use instead of fists when a mob or player closes melee range.

Lightning Strike
Thunder Shock
Thunderous Blast
Winged Pledge
and Wingspan.

Those will all be full damage instead of half at 5m or less.

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

the knockback on that is quite nice for mobs that get close. Otherwise just kite

Decus - Dreamweaver

Walpurga - Dreamweaver wrote: »

did you know that if you use wingspan on a random mob outside arco while pk mode you can net yourself a free kill by oneshotting some fail sin out of stealth

Anyone from DW know ******?

Killed him twice in a row, the same exact way, level 1 wingspan

the knockback on that is quite nice for mobs that get close. Otherwise just kite

Naming and shaming is not allowed on the forum.

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

edited and removed