My Thoughts on Archer Skill 'Re-balancing'

Facerolled - Raging Tide

Trying to keep it away from QQing, just my general opinion on the matter.

Sage quickshot is pretty OP compared to demon's. Sage has 2 effects, demon has 1. Sage is 100%, demon is 50%.

Sage QS vs Demon Stun/STA, sage QS is spammable, 3s CD, able to chain for perm 20% crit rate increase just like demon. Faster channeling than stun and STA.

Sage stun is now 50% longer than demon's. Throw that in with a longer range, sage archer has to come out tops in most situations.

Sage still cannot boost APS, but can increase their DPS dramatically now.

Sage still has higher base damage

Sage still has longer range

Sage still gain chi faster

Demon used to have a lot better burst DPS, now sage archer can match/out DPS a demon with the aid of wind shield (genie). Even without using WS I'd think they won't be very far behind.

Demon's BoA is still sexy.

b:dirty Burger fairy

I think PWI went a little too far with this 'balancing'. I'm not QQing as a demon archer, switching for me isn't a problem, just I'd like demon to retain the burst DPS aspect (i.e higher crit for x time, faster aps for x time) while sage still retain higher base damage, range and chi gain.

http://youtu.be/N508HcXmC7g

truekossy

Yeah. Them making sage also a part of the whole burst damage thing was poorly done, IMO. And making i guaranteed on top of that was just.. meh.

I was hoping it'd make sage's strengths improved instead of making them demons but slightly different.


But at least demons still get the burger fairy.

_blood_rain - Sanctuary

With our passives+white wings/crit buffed the diff between sage and demon crit is 6%, but I still think it's a ****ed up way to "balance" the two. The lines between sage and demon have been blurred, the only things that set demon apart really are triple spark/qs/barrage -int adds(and qs isn't even 100%). I still don't see myself switching to sage, but the difference between sage and demon isn't even worth an inquisitory "sage or demon?" nooby culti thread, much less a fierce argument in said thread. Not that it ever really was aside from the amusement factor >.> Also I got to bully sage archers (>:D)

More annoying than the skill changes is the recent plague of sage pride that's been going around. You'd think they would be upset that the way PW chooses to "balance" them with demon is to just make them more like demon, instead of enhancing their sageness, especially after all that "ITS PLAYSTYLE" thing they used to INSIST all the time.

Aldryami - Sanctuary

Demon still has Spark Burst and Barrage. They are still better at fisting and mass pk.

In 1 vs 1 pk with bows I'd rather be sage because of the range, stun and crit. Also the chaining together of metal skills. (Not that I will ever get to PK in this version coz I cant afford anything better than rank 8).

Demons can close the crit gap quite a bit using the Faction Base Buff (with which sage QS doesn't stack).

I bet Asterelle will come along and tell us, objectively, what is best.

_blood_rain - Sanctuary

The base crit buff doesn't stack with demon crit buffs either >.> kinda pointless for a demon archer. The only archers I knew who used em were sage, or just really dumb demons.

Aldryami - Sanctuary

_blood_rain - Sanctuary wrote: »

More annoying than the skill changes is the recent plague of sage pride that's been going around.

I'm not so much seeing Sage pride as Demon shame. You guys should have known that if you tinker with the devil It's all gonna end up bad in the end. The cackling cockerels have had their wings clipped. The hens are taking over the chicken coop b:chuckle

Facerolled - Raging Tide

Aldryami - Sanctuary wrote: »

Demons can close the crit gap quite a bit using the Faction Base Buff (with which sage QS doesn't stack).

You think demon's crit buff stacks? That's cute.

Aldryami - Sanctuary

_blood_rain - Sanctuary wrote: »

The base crit buff doesn't stack with demon crit buffs either >.> kinda pointless for a demon archer. The only archers I knew who used em were sage, or just really dumb demons.

Ah yea, should have guessed. But do you really fire off STA and Stun for the crit all that often?

EDIT: yea stun is usually the opener. Been so long since i played demon I cant even remember how much your crit gets buffed or how long it lasts etc.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

20% crit is not a dramatic boost to DPS. Assuming an archer already with 40% crit, adding 20% more crit is just 14% more dps.
Demon quickshot takes me from 0.87 to 1.25 aps which is 44% more dps which is very noticeable.

The demon quickshot dps multiplies with the dps boost you get from demon stun arrow.

I'd still keep demon QS I think but the cultis are closer now.

Aldryami - Sanctuary

Asterelle does the duration of PK affect those figures? Would an RPK lasting about 10 or 20 seconds bias the results toward sage? In a time frame of, say, 10 seconds how many extra attacks would the Demon get?

Vindis - Dreamweaver

@Boogie: To correct your video, Sage stun is 5 seconds now. It has always been 4.5 seconds. And i agree that they weren't very underpowered before. Most people just suck at this game. Here is my sage observations.

Best changes were to BV and Awaken. Condor is a close 3rd.

I experimented with Sage QS duelling several archers in Northo. Half the time I can just facetank similar geared/better weap archers because Condor is pretty OP now and Sage QS helps alot. 60% crit is quite a large amount. Condor lets luck save your life for 10 seconds and improves survivability. The changes to Sage QS will also make it easier to break through a tanky opponents defenses.

Archer vs Archer is still boring. Whoever misses more loses and Condor kind of makes that a coin toss from my experiences. We have too many antistuns so our stun is not reliable against each other. Demon QS gives more opportunities to attack within 10 seconds if it procs. More attacks total gives a better chance for more crits. Any archer could also theoretically have 65% crit with Galvanic Aura. That point kind of negates any argument about range (but its still fun to deadzone casters).

Random Q, but how does the Stormrage Slow (Demon is 80% now right?) match up with Wiz Glacial Snare? (Idk % off the top of my head; likr 90?). It seems like it could be useful on opponents that lack antistuns (barbs come to mind).

Iyania - Heavens Tear

Demon quickshot is still better IMO. Attack speed gives you more changes to crit in itself and a better chance to proc purge. I believe that's why they made sage QS proc 100%; the crit buff isn't as strong as the attack speed buff in the first place.


Sage stun arrow was pretty good already and is now even better. I can see it making or breaking a 1v1, but as a TW junkie, the crit is still more important to me. I used to think sage/demon stun arrow was a tossup to preference and style, and while I still stand by that, the sage stun does synergize with their QS now the same way demon QS and stun did.


Sage did get some nice buffs but if I got to pick again I would still be demon. However I've always said that because it was my play style, not because I felt one or the other was better. Especially with the buff to Awaken, I think chi drain is more useful than chi gain. And of course, demon barrage is unquestionably better.

U_Sasuke - Sanctuary

Sage Archers right now: "TROLOLOLOL THATS RIGHT! BOW DOWN TO US WE ARE BETTER NOW"

I wonder how many demon archers are switching to sage now to join the bandweagon.

Iyania - Heavens Tear

From asking around my archer friends, none. They're mostly just annoyed at the godaweful noise crappy sage archers are making.


Yes, crappy sage archers. The good ones didn't need the buff to be good so...

Facerolled - Raging Tide

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

20% crit is not a dramatic boost to DPS. Assuming an archer already with 40% crit, adding 20% more crit is just 14% more dps.

On average, it's 22% increase vs 15% increase. I guess sage is still more 'consistent' with a 100% chance QS -.-

Aldryami - Sanctuary

It's fun fuelling the ancient demon/sage conflict but really I don't think Sage is better now. In some situations perhaps. I think people now have more of a choice when they come to their cultivation path. That's a good thing.

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear

To be honest, my biggest complaint about demon is the horrible triple spark icon. It is so fugly that I actually made a macro that consists of triple spark -> attack so that I don't have to look at the horrible piece of art on my skill bar.

Iyania - Heavens Tear

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »

To be honest, my biggest complaint about demon is the horrible triple spark icon. It is so fugly that I actually made a macro that consists of triple spark -> attack so that I don't have to look at the horrible piece of art on my skill bar.

LOLOLOLOL b:laughb:laughb:laugh Sorry I am kind of hyper today and that often translates into easily amused.

Astraelys - Raging Tide

I'm a sage archer, and i already test the skills (full sage skills), changes made sage archer more viable wow we have two types of archers are equal is ridiculous said demon now need turn sage, or sage need turn demon (in the old times).

And i always be sage or demons is merely playstyle b:cute

Pouroush - Raging Tide

Come On Guys can't we just give this Demon vs Sage a rest already. We are all Proud Archers so lets just help each other to fight better and play better also make our class command even more Respect regardless to what cultivation path we choose. b:pleased

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Facerolled - Raging Tide wrote: »

On average, it's 22% increase vs 15% increase. I guess sage is still more 'consistent' with a 100% chance QS -.-

Average result is bad analysis here imo. It is an assumption that the demon has no change of behavior between a QS proc and a fail. If it fails you can always try to proc it again or you can back off out of danger and try to snipe again or do some other skill. The fact you will be choosing a result that is most beneficial to you for the circumstance will put you ahead of the mathematical average performance.

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear

Iyania - Heavens Tear wrote: »

LOLOLOLOL b:laughb:laughb:laugh Sorry I am kind of hyper today and that often translates into easily amused.

No need to apologize, you can hyper me any day

Ninuska - Lost City

lol at demon archers that have always been op compared to sage ones, QQing about skill "reballancing". this is just hilarious b:laugh

so, who thinks sage QS gonna cost more than 1m now? (got mine for 800k) b:shutup

_blood_rain - Sanctuary

lol at sage archers who think that becoming half-*** versions of demon archers is a good reason to act arrogant.

deadwieght

ive always been a sage archer and im surprised nobody has commented on the fact that sage archers can now have nearly 95% crit rate while using 3 sparked BoA while maintaining 40+ meters range. add in the 33% defence bonus from sage boa and an IG and an AD and the fact that awaken is now 5 minute cooldown. then add in that warsoul/r9 2nd cast is easier to get and it is completely possible to have 700+dex.

i pity anyone in BoA range in TW.

Bhavyy - Raging Tide

Kinda nice for you to crit more often than you dont for pretty much any hit you deal.

In my opinion it's as close as you could get it to being balanced.
It's not like they've taken anything away from demon archers.

In some cases sage is better, in some cases it isnt. That's the whole point i think...b:chuckle

Sage hits harder, crits more, gain chi faster allowing for better chaining of magic damage skills (along with the fact that thunderous blast has a lower channel and cast time) and general chi consuming skills which means in combat you could probably boa sooner than a demon, anti stun and so on.. so are more defensive (<-generalisation here) and in general the debuffs/status effects are just better e.g. STA, stunning arrow, storm rage (which now decreases defenses by 50% apparently? (according to this thread) etc.

From my point of view - sage's are able to deal a lot more magical damage over time out than a demon, demon still seems to pull ahead in terms of physical damage what with their quickshot and crit buffs which arent that bad tbh.

I mean sage archers in my mind have always been a bit more magic damage based and archers are a crit based magic and physical damage class.

Kinda makes sense in terms of the whole initial balance idea?

And sorry if i got this wrong (please correct me if i have) but vicious arrow now increases wood damage taken by a target by 35%? (i think! again sorry if this is wrong)
If thats true however, it will be kinda nice for sage archers to team up with mystics and venos.. (*hopes its true cause my wifey's a mystic* b:dirty)

Demon hits faster, higher chance to purge per unit of time for those with purge bows (which is freaking OP), has higher base crit (which is kinda nice for those long BOA's on the crystal and towers) and accuracy (from what i remember at least).


In conclusion i think before the update the shift in the spectrum of

Sage is just better<->playing style justifying sage<->playing style justifying demon<->demon is just better

thing was a little more heavily stacked on the "demon skills just being better" side.

Now it's most definitely somewhere towards the middle which i think is the whole idea of giving people a choice.
At least people will now think more carefully and are more likely to form their own opinion rather than just blindly going demon because some R9 archer or whatever in their faction is and says its better.

But then again - I'm sage b:victory

Dylena - Raging Tide

u_sasuke - Sanctuary wrote: »

sage Archers Right Now: "trolololol Thats Right! Bow Down To Us We Are Better Now"

I Wonder How Many Demon Archers Are Switching To Sage Now To Join The Bandweagon.

I will not bow down to your sage jedi mind tricks!

Anfisa - Lost City

Bhavyy - Raging Tide wrote: »

Sage hits harder, crits more, gain chi faster allowing for better chaining of magic damage skills...

That's why I dislike the change, it takes away demon's role of attacking faster and criting more. Sure the dps increase isn't that huge, but they still took one of the main roles of demon and gave it to sage. Just feels bad from that viewpoint.

Iyania - Heavens Tear

Archers who used the whole set up to get the 95% crit probably wasted a whole lot of chi that I honestly don't think is worth all that setup. I rather just tag team with a BM's HF and get the same damage off my non-crits (and the chances of me not critting are about the same as me critting so....).


Plus I think about it this way....If you can kill a squishy in just one tick of barrage, then yea, your guaranteed crit helps. If you're trying to kill squishies who are at least decently geared, you will tick them if you crit, so the fastest way to kill them is to actually not crit, and then crit on the second tick. Me, for example, I don't think I'll die to any barrage in one tick without an amp. Realistically if you're wasting all that time casting your crit buffs you're not gonna barrage in time for BM stuns; they get chi drained all the time and are pressured to spend their sparks as fast as possible as soon as they're in taunt range (at least that's how it is on my server). Any reasonably smart person will run away to break your barrage, which means you can realistically get about 2 ticks off (assuming no one stuns you/you're irongruaded, etc.) without stun help from other classes. If you crit both of them with your 95% crit, you basically did not kill anyone who matters. But grats on killing all the people who would have died to a regular barrage.


tl;dr - Sages can get a lot of crit on paper, but not useful in practice.

Bhavyy - Raging Tide

Anfisa - Lost City wrote: »

That's why I dislike the change, it takes away demon's role of attacking faster and criting more.

Well you cant have both!

Sage has to be able to kill SOMETHING!!