Guardian BM build?

BlastFlare - Dreamweaver

Every two levels I add vit 2, str 5, and dex 3 with Garnet shards?
I feel like I use my buff an marrows more effectively... and compared to a vit 1, str 6, dex 3 build that uses Citrine shards; I have a little less hp and damage, but quite a bit more physical and a bit more magical defense. Also, my HP regeneration rate seems to be two times faster.

I use all 4 weapons though my stats say I am more of a sword/pole arm build. The thing is the highest axes that my stats allow me to use always seem to do nearly the same amount of damage the current sword/pole arm. My fists are all ways weaker, but the attack speed makes up for it.

...I am wondering if I have found a perfectly balanced build that acts like a Guardian...I have no idea how it would work in PVP... but I am usally in PVE... It seems to be more geared towards crowd controlling, damage amplifier, seems to pull mobs off of magic users, and back up tank. Of course... It can't tank at all unless the damage dealers or the real tank hold back or are dead.

I am planing no to waste my time trying to get 5 APS also.

What do you guys think of what I call the Guardian build? It's not on the "common builds" in the wiki.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

BlastFlare - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I am planing no to waste my time trying to get 5 APS also.

What do you guys think of what I call the Guardian build? It's not on the "common builds" in the wiki.

The build guidelines most people recommend is 3str/2dex per level, but pulling out either 1 str or 1 dex every level or 2 is pretty common also. A build like this is recommend for people who can't afford to keep their gear updated or decently refined so we suggest letting either your axes fall behind a few levels or your claws and put those stats into vitality.

The 6 str 3 dex 1 vit build is also viable for using all paths if you plan your gear ahead.


When I hit level 100 I had about 320 str, 190 dex, 5 vit and 5 magic base, and only about 7k hp. So I switched to what would be considered a 2.5str, 1 vit, 1.5 dex (290 str, 180 dex, 45 vit) build for a little bit. My damage and physical def went down but my hp went up to about 7.6k. It helped a bit, especially in PvP where 600 hp actually made a difference between charm ticks.

Of course, once I got reasonable refines I put everything into strength and dropped vit and magic down to 3 and capped dex at 203 with gear. The more strength you have the more physical defense you have which is about 90% of the damage we take (vit doesn't give as much defense). Also, it was important to me to protect my squad so I wanted high damage output for aggro. If you plan on being a backup tank for your squad then more strength is a good thing.


I see you're only in your 50s but I found it odd you are against aps already. Any reason for that?

BlastFlare - Dreamweaver

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

The build guidelines most people recommend is 3str/2dex per level, but pulling out either 1 str or 1 dex every level or 2 is pretty common also. A build like this is recommend for people who can't afford to keep their gear updated or decently refined so we suggest letting either your axes fall behind a few levels or your claws and put those stats into vitality.

The 6 str 3 dex 1 vit build is also viable for using all paths if you plan your gear ahead.


When I hit level 100 I had about 320 str, 190 dex, 5 vit and 5 magic base, and only about 7k hp. So I switched to what would be considered a 2.5str, 1 vit, 1.5 dex (290 str, 180 dex, 45 vit) build for a little bit. My damage and physical def went down but my hp went up to about 7.6k. It helped a bit, especially in PvP where 600 hp actually made a difference between charm ticks.

Of course, once I got reasonable refines I put everything into strength and dropped vit and magic down to 3 and capped dex at 203 with gear. The more strength you have the more physical defense you have which is about 90% of the damage we take (vit doesn't give as much defense). Also, it was important to me to protect my squad so I wanted high damage output for aggro. If you plan on being a backup tank for your squad then more strength is a good thing.


I see you're only in your 50s but I found it odd you are against aps already. Any reason for that?

I am actually 67 avatar thing is glitched. Lol

Well... I originally played a different version of PW (PW MY ENG is dead) and my guild master inspired me a little bit with his barb's build. Also, this was the build I used that didn't require charms to keep me alive. I was helping a little bit with world bosses as a level 77, and having more of a vit build keeps the bosses from killing me in one hit. b:laugh Now on this server, the 100s that I help by amping their damage freak out because they think I can't take the damage from FB bosses.

Also, I don't like going after the 5 APS because it's not my goal. I'd rather go after gear with str or dex bonuses on it to give me better stats to use axes and fists out side of my build (Kind of like how heavy venos try to get mag and str). Lol I currently have 50 extra attributes from gear alone. b:victory I am able to fight things 10 or 20 levels higher than me without taking too much damage with the way I gear my self. b:laugh

I think I hit fast enough with 1.64 APS with Relentless Courage and 1.54 with Cyclone Heel to get sparks to use HF and GS interchangeably . If I hit faster than that, then I might as well make an assassin. I guess it's like my friend says, "Face rolling toons are boring". All 5 APS BMS do is face roll between just fists, axes, HF. Most of the time, there are fail BM tanks that have incomplete gear trying to be 5 APS. So I pick up their slack. Also, the best assassin tanks are still fragile and can easily die if they lag while buffing in battle. Some times Barbarian tanks can get killed, and there are times when I can hold the boss long enough for the barb to be revived and healed. Lol BMs have 30 or more skills, I might as well try to use them all instead of just 5.

I have noticed hardly anyone in PWI protects the casters and healers when the tanks don't aoe everything... no wonder why there are so few wizards. b:sad Maybe PWI needs more Guardians. b:surrender

Maelael - Heavens Tear

Edit: I just realized my eyes glazed over garnet shards and sword/pole. This is a troll Saku, we've been yulked. I refuse to believe anyone is that blind.

FatherTed - Dreamweaver

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

glazed over garnet shards and sword/pole

I'd wondered about that myself. I'll give you wanting to use other weapons for the old ****s and giggles and wanting to be different and all. Can't quite work out what benefit she thinks she's getting from garnets though.

BlastFlare - Dreamweaver

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Edit: I just realized my eyes glazed over garnet shards and sword/pole. This is a troll Saku, we've been yulked. I refuse to believe anyone is that blind.

No, I am no troll.b:scorn. The grant shards give me more of a deference boost and it works with the buffs and marrows. Vit points give better regeneration and citrines do not. I don't even know who Saku is. The PWI community isn't that small. b:sweat

BlastFlare - Dreamweaver

FatherTed - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I'd wondered about that myself. I'll give you wanting to use other weapons for the old ****s and giggles and wanting to be different and all. Can't quite work out what benefit she thinks she's getting from garnets though.

If I wanted to be a good tank with a godly amount of HP, I'd build a barb. BM buffs are based off of physical deference alone, thats why I use granet and Vit points.b:sweat

Maelael - Heavens Tear

BlastFlare - Dreamweaver wrote: »

No, I am no troll.b:scorn. The grant shards give me more of a deference boost and it works with the buffs and marrows. Vit points give better regeneration and citrines do not. I don't even know who Saku is. The PWI community isn't that small. b:sweat

You're a troll.

Anyone who would not notice the diminishing returns at high pdef coupled with the extreme lack of aggro, damage, and flexibility of other builds...and then state they are sword/pole along with mentioning DDs having to hold back is either:

A: Trolling

B: Stupid

But lets play this game and go with you're just stupid:

Every two levels I add vit 2, str 5, and dex 3 with Garnet shards?
I feel like I use my buff an marrows more effectively... and compared to a vit 1, str 6, dex 3 build that uses Citrine shards; I have a little less hp and damage, but quite a bit more physical and a bit more magical defense. Also, my HP regeneration rate seems to be two times faster.

Between 10k-15k pdef there is an extreme amount of diminishing returns where HP returns better overall survivability. HP regen is extraordinarily minimal and just about meaningless after 5k HP.

All of this is easily found in pwpedia.

Futhermore if you're playing well, you aren't out of attack mode long enough to even take advantage of full regen. PLUS, there are so few spots where marrows can be safely used in PvE, marrows are practically a non issue overall.

I use all 4 weapons though my stats say I am more of a sword/pole arm build. The thing is the highest axes that my stats allow me to use always seem to do nearly the same amount of damage the current sword/pole arm. My fists are all ways weaker, but the attack speed makes up for it.

You have two forms of attacking:
Autoattack
Skill Spam

Autoattack, if you do the math - fists will out DD everything else, especially at 3.33-5aps.

Skill Spam - The idea is to take advantage of the base attack over the add ons, because the add ons extremely pitiful compared to base damage. The fastest attacks for base damage are all in the general skills, although meteor rush isnt bad. Which means, if you spam skills useable by axe, that are fast...you out damage (and out aggro) any other choice.

Fists, Axes. Swords nor Poles have the base speed or damage to compete.

I am wondering if I have found a perfectly balanced build that acts like a Guardian...I have no idea how it would work in PVP... but I am usally in PVE... It seems to be more geared towards crowd controlling, damage amplifier, seems to pull mobs off of magic users, and back up tank. Of course... It can't tank at all unless the damage dealers or the real tank hold back or are dead.

Nope, you've found a build that doesn't tank, aggro, or DD as well as the 3/2 build that uses axes and fists.

Here's the thing: I can (and have, since 85) Tank, DD, and Amp all at the same time for my party. I'm doing 3 roles. You're doing 1. I know plenty of people with like +5 gear that do the same. And guess what - the DDs don't actually have to hold back unless they're overgeared.

Your second post has such little logic let alone makes sense or communicates a point, its like...I don't even know where to begin.

So really, I'm guessing nobody is as stupid as you're claiming to be, but you're a good troll cause I just wasted 10 minutes on this reply.

BlastFlare - Dreamweaver

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You're a troll.

Anyone who would not notice the diminishing returns at high pdef coupled with the extreme lack of aggro, damage, and flexibility of other builds...and then state they are sword/pole along with mentioning DDs having to hold back is either:

A: Trolling

B: Stupid

But lets play this game and go with you're just stupid:



Between 10k-15k pdef there is an extreme amount of diminishing returns where HP returns better overall survivability. HP regen is extraordinarily minimal and just about meaningless after 5k HP.

All of this is easily found in pwpedia.

Futhermore if you're playing well, you aren't out of attack mode long enough to even take advantage of full regen. PLUS, there are so few spots where marrows can be safely used in PvE, marrows are practically a non issue overall.



You have two forms of attacking:
Autoattack
Skill Spam

Autoattack, if you do the math - fists will out DD everything else, especially at 3.33-5aps.

Skill Spam - The idea is to take advantage of the base attack over the add ons, because the add ons extremely pitiful compared to base damage. The fastest attacks for base damage are all in the general skills, although meteor rush isnt bad. Which means, if you spam skills useable by axe, that are fast...you out damage (and out aggro) any other choice.

Fists, Axes. Swords nor Poles have the base speed or damage to compete.



Nope, you've found a build that doesn't tank, aggro, or DD as well as the 3/2 build that uses axes and fists.

Here's the thing: I can (and have, since 85) Tank, DD, and Amp all at the same time for my party. I'm doing 3 roles. You're doing 1. I know plenty of people with like +5 gear that do the same. And guess what - the DDs don't actually have to hold back unless they're overgeared.

Your second post has such little logic let alone makes sense or communicates a point, its like...I don't even know where to begin.

So really, I'm guessing nobody is as stupid as you're claiming to be, but you're a good troll cause I just wasted 10 minutes on this reply.

There is no one way to build character in pwi. And there are too many APS5 BMs out there. I rather do my own thing. Being original isn't trolling, your just dense. I don't aim to tank, I am more of supporter and crowd controller by building more definitively than offensive.

Have fun being a generic clone face rolling.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

BlastFlare - Dreamweaver wrote: »

There is no one way to build character in pwi. And there are too many APS5 BMs out there. I rather do my own thing. Being original isn't trolling, your just dense. I don't aim to tank, I am more of supporter and crowd controller by building more definitively than offensive.

Have fun being a generic clone face rolling.

Thats not being orginal, thats utilizing a build from YEARS ago that was outdated and outclassed by current ones.

You're only a supporter/crowd controller. Key word is only. The current recommended build can do that just as well (better, actually - cause it builds chi faster) and more.

Everyone can do their own thing. Just as long as you accept being called on your own thing being trolly, stupid, or not as beneficial for the party.

BlastFlare - Dreamweaver

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Thats not being orginal, thats utilizing a build from YEARS ago that was outdated and outclassed by current ones.

You're only a supporter/crowd controller. Key word is only. The current recommended build can do that just as well (better, actually - cause it builds chi faster) and more.

Everyone can do their own thing. Just as long as you accept being called on your own thing being trolly, stupid, or not as beneficial for the party.

You are the one that is trolling. I was posting here asking about my build and you accuse me of being some one else. Besides you are just a run-of-the-mill 5 APS BM.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

BlastFlare - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You are the one that is trolling. I was posting here asking about my build and you accuse me of being some one else. Besides you are just a run-of-the-mill 5 APS BM.

Okay you've got me laughing at this post now, I admit it.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

BlastFlare - Dreamweaver wrote: »

There is no one way to build character in pwi. And there are too many APS5 BMs out there. I rather do my own thing. Being original isn't trolling, your just dense. I don't aim to tank, I am more of supporter and crowd controller by building more definitively than offensive.

Have fun being a generic clone face rolling.

As I've said, this isn't really an original build. Its a build for weaker, poorer players who neglect their gear refines or don't have the playing skill to run without vitality in their build. Can't survive on your own merits? Add vit.

The same argument comes up in the sin forums when comparing a pure dex build with dex/vit mix build. A dead dd does no good for anyone and is actually a hinderance when they need to be revived so pure dex is best but use vit-dex if you can't survive like most sins. The same here, 3str/2dex if you know how to play and put basic refines on your gear. But if ou find yourself dieing alot and being more a hinderance to your squad then stat a point now and again into vit from either str and dex and just use out dated weapons.

Two other issues to comment on: Garnets vs Cit at low levels, and "I'm a sword/pole bm." The whole diminishing return on pdef is largely a myth. It takes more and more pdef to gain 1% more phys reduction but that 1% becomes lareger. What I mean by that is if you have 70% and it takes 2k pdef to get to 71% you've gone from taking 30% damage to 29% damage (about 3% less damage taken). At 80% it may take 5k to get that 1% but you go from taking 20% damage to taking 19% damage (5% less damage taken). So diminishing returns are largely exagerated.

And like I said, we are melee characters and bosses and mobs usually switch to physical damage when we get up close. Half of them also have physical ranged attacked. So about 90% of the attacks we recieve are physical. But, the attacks that really hurt are the magical ones. I'd suggest citrines because it helps you against physical and magic attacks, as well as gives you more heals when sparking or using Diamond Sutra, but I won't penalize a person for garnets or think its a troll either.

The "sword/pole" bm thing... Every axe/fist bm you see is also a sword/pole/bow bm. As Maelael pointed out, axes are better for skill spamming and groups, fists are better for single target dps, sword and pole are less effective at both. Saying you're sword/pole is just playing less efficient to be different. Your squad doesn't appreciate. There are situations where pole and sword are great, but they count for >10% of the time. Using a pole/sword is great, but only makes you look stupid when the axe or claws are a better tool for the job and you don't recognize it.

I'd kiss and make-up with Maelael. He's an old player that has evolved with the game. He remembers vit-axe bms. He remembers doing WBs in his 60-80's probably and when no one was higher than level 90. He was smart enough to recognize aps early and at one point probably had a similar build to yours as he switched from vit-axe to all path. You can watch his videos and see him use all weapons but most importantly he uses the right weapon at the right time. And he's right that once you replace your vit with refines and put the str/dex back in your build you'll be more effective at what you want to do, which is crowd control, skill spam, aggro if need be, and protect others.

Edit: Oh, you can update your avatar by clicking on its picture in the top left of your screen. Change it for a second and then change it back and it should update.

frendlydaddy1

he can a get 3rd cast pole or sword and as far as i know a decide will face roll lose to that


money can out agro the norm of idiocy very easy

so it come out to money again not build and yes a 3rd cast fist can get dd back but then they would need 3rd cast fist to do so.


2nd cast fist is non factor anyways and anything below is worse then that.

let see 3str 2dex ooh right that is farm build cos it suck in tw no str on axe and no hp if put on vit so yup non factor build on a non factor aps toon when a sin can out agro bm so easy.


BlastFlare go with ur original build dont listen to this troll and if you ever come to lost city look me up ill show you a pure pole bm soon to be 3rd cast who kick ***.

frendlydaddy1

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

As I've said, this isn't really an original build. Its a build for weaker, poorer players who neglect their gear refines or don't have the playing skill to run without vitality in their build. Can't survive on your own merits? Add vit.

The same argument comes up in the sin forums when comparing a pure dex build with dex/vit mix build. A dead dd does no good for anyone and is actually a hinderance when they need to be revived so pure dex is best but use vit-dex if you can't survive like most sins. The same here, 3str/2dex if you know how to play and put basic refines on your gear. But if ou find yourself dieing alot and being more a hinderance to your squad then stat a point now and again into vit from either str and dex and just use out dated weapons.

Two other issues to comment on: Garnets vs Cit at low levels, and "I'm a sword/pole bm." The whole diminishing return on pdef is largely a myth. It takes more and more pdef to gain 1% more phys reduction but that 1% becomes lareger. What I mean by that is if you have 70% and it takes 2k pdef to get to 71% you've gone from taking 30% damage to 29% damage (about 3% less damage taken). At 80% it may take 5k to get that 1% but you go from taking 20% damage to taking 19% damage (5% less damage taken). So diminishing returns are largely exagerated.

And like I said, we are melee characters and bosses and mobs usually switch to physical damage when we get up close. Half of them also have physical ranged attacked. So about 90% of the attacks we recieve are physical. But, the attacks that really hurt are the magical ones. I'd suggest citrines because it helps you against physical and magic attacks, as well as gives you more heals when sparking or using Diamond Sutra, but I won't penalize a person for garnets or think its a troll either.

The "sword/pole" bm thing... Every axe/fist bm you see is also a sword/pole/bow bm. As Maelael pointed out, axes are better for skill spamming and groups, fists are better for single target dps, sword and pole are less effective at both. Saying you're sword/pole is just playing less efficient to be different. Your squad doesn't appreciate. There are situations where pole and sword are great, but they count for >10% of the time. Using a pole/sword is great, but only makes you look stupid when the axe or claws are a better tool for the job and you don't recognize it.

I'd kiss and make-up with Maelael. He's an old player that has evolved with the game. He remembers vit-axe bms. He remembers doing WBs in his 60-80's probably and when no one was higher than level 90. He was smart enough to recognize aps early and at one point probably had a similar build to yours as he switched from vit-axe to all path. You can watch his videos and see him use all weapons but most importantly he uses the right weapon at the right time. And he's right that once you replace your vit with refines and put the str/dex back in your build you'll be more effective at what you want to do, which is crowd control, skill spam, aggro if need be, and protect others.

Edit: Oh, you can update your avatar by clicking on its picture in the top left of your screen. Change it for a second and then change it back and it should update.

your so wrong here this game is not what is most effective but what about having fun and let me tell you pole and sword maybe are fun to play with not effectiv but fun.

dont worry i am not gona team up with you i only play with faction but i do know i enjoy my bm to the outmost and i dont need to lose the fun for being effective.

this game have evolved from fun to greedy effective cutter build and if you like it that is fine but let blastflare have his fun or stfo.

so sick of seeing aps everywhere just cos the rest of the money says its the right build for them

George_Bush - Harshlands

From the pure PvP stand point, APS is not needed against most classes. Not to mention the compromised defense of going into APS, i.e. the loss of the def level set bonus from complete Rank 9, the caster weapon effect Purify completely kills APS in PvP and as time goes more and more people will have Purify, and less effective APS will become in PvP. Pole BM is nice but not realistic. Even with 3rd cast pole, it is a pain to kill endgame JoSD opponents without God of Frenzy. Now the best weapon in game is the 3rd cast Rank 9 axe with maximum of + 65 attack levels and God of Frenzy. That axe can even kill offensive R9 barbs (meaning not spamming SS and without cornered beast) if stun and HF at half HP.

BlastFlare - Dreamweaver

frendlydaddy1 wrote: »

he can a get 3rd cast pole or sword and as far as i know a decide will face roll lose to that


money can out agro the norm of idiocy very easy

so it come out to money again not build and yes a 3rd cast fist can get dd back but then they would need 3rd cast fist to do so.


2nd cast fist is non factor anyways and anything below is worse then that.

let see 3str 2dex ooh right that is farm build cos it suck in tw no str on axe and no hp if put on vit so yup non factor build on a non factor aps toon when a sin can out agro bm so easy.


BlastFlare go with ur original build dont listen to this troll and if you ever come to lost city look me up ill show you a pure pole bm soon to be 3rd cast who kick ***.

b:victory nice

frendlydaddy1

George_Bush - Harshlands wrote: »

From the pure PvP stand point, APS is not needed against most classes. Not to mention the compromised defense of going into APS, i.e. the loss of the def level set bonus from complete Rank 9, the caster weapon effect Purify completely kills APS in PvP and as time goes more and more people will have Purify, and less effective APS will become in PvP. Pole BM is nice but not realistic. Even with 3rd cast pole, it is a pain to kill endgame JoSD opponents without God of Frenzy. Now the best weapon in game is the 3rd cast Rank 9 axe with maximum of + 65 attack levels and God of Frenzy. That axe can even kill offensive R9 barbs (meaning not spamming SS and without cornered beast) if stun and HF at half HP.

3rd cast is not r9 josd
r9 is best gear and cutter build and boring but in a way funy as there is no fist in r9.
one could be +12 r9 bm with 60 dex and one shoot a 3str 2dex bm anyday.

pole is fun i dont need more excuses to play my bm then that if ppl dont like it they can
something.

flare be proud of what you are no matter the haters

George_Bush - Harshlands

In general Pole > Axe in 1v1 and I miss the days when Dance of the Universe was endgame. b:cry

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

This is now officially a troll thread, lol.

After reading their posts I'm not sure if Friendly or Blast have ever actually played a bm. They certainly don't understand the game mechanics. Not sure I should bother explaining things to them since they're being stupid just to be different. I'm sorry, having 40 vit and 40 less dex or strength doesn't make you "special" or unique. Playing well and using your skills properly does.

Pole skills tend to be weaker than axe skills. Poles lack spike damage. Pole weapons don't usually have SS. There also is a lack of good endgame poles. Primarily they're used for range damage and purge skills. Purge poles also tend to lack good damage adds.

Both of you seem to be battling people well below your level to shape your beliefs. 100 vit is nice under level 99 when the difference is 6k vs 7.5 so about 25%. Once you get refined though, 100 vit means 16.5k vs 15k ~10%. However both builds will have significantly reduced damage output or accuracy. You might tank an extra hit (or not. 1500 hp isn't significant when you're being hit for 2-5k average) but you wont end a fight because you're damage output is poor.

Friendly, I don't even know where to start with you. Your knowledge is just... frigging sad. First, aps gear isn't pvp gear. Hotkey gear and swap like a smart bm. Second, 400 str and 200 dex. Second, full r9 is not the best defense. R9rr or R9r is, but realistically R9/G16 mix is, and you can even sub in R8r pieces.

+12 r9 with 60 dex vs a +12 r9 with 200 dex, so 140 more points in str vs 140 more in dex. You're looking at 610 str vs 470 str. Add in rings, character levels, Phys attack adds, attack levels and most importantly weapon mastery... the dph difference is gonna be around 15% unsparked . Meanwhile the accuracy difference is 1200 vs 4000 and evasion of 900 vs 2300, and 7% more crit (more zerk crits). Their hp should be the same, or you can give up the dph boost for 2k more hp. Eitherway, you're looking at less accuracy, less crit, less evasion for 1% more pdef reduction and 15% dph or about 15% more hp.

Not to mention you'll hinder your farming ability by not being able solo things on paint heals or find squads or kill things as effectively. Hope you cash shop to support your 'special' self. Glad you guys are happy limiting yourself so much. The rest of us will be more versatile.

Jaabg - Sanctuary

Everyone getting touch touchy here b:victory, let me join in as well.

From my personal experience, pole skills = linear aoe, i have yet to see 3~5 mobs stand in a straight line so i can use my linear aoe. I did use pole skills on 1v1 on mobs, but i never tried to bring mobs in a straight line for that to work. I never paid attention to pole skills for that reason. I do have gs lvled for obvious reasons.

Sword skills, mage bane, never really helped out because at the end of the day the mobs with magic attack will still use the magic attack, even if you slow them down and go to close combat.

Spirit chaser was never a high dd skill, took too much mp for no added benefit.

Atmos strike, the last thing i want to do is push mobs away from me. Especially those who are magic, or use magic openings.

Axe skills = heavy mp cost but all round aoe with added effects so useful in fights.

Vacuous Palm - never lvled beyond one, i don't use it.

Shadowless Kick - far superior to Farstrike or Spirit chaser for the intended purpose. It stops the mob from doing a magic attack. Spirit chases is a range dd skills, mage bane still allows a magic attack to occur. Far strike is range dd. With a shadowless kick i can atleast cancel the first magic attack, use my phy marrow safely. At the 2nd magic attack i can stun the mob, 3rd magic attack use the kick and so forth and that allows me to keep phy marrow on at all times.

Cyclone heel - very effective way to kill if coupled with a spark, as effective as aoe for small groups, with lower mp cost, especially if bp is involved. The joy of axe aoe is killing 7~20 mobs at once at your lvl.

Drake's Breath Bash - very special skill, lets me keep agro on phy immune mobs from casters b:dirty, this is to have fun with your friends.

At lower lvls if i was not killing aoe, because mobs had magic opening at aoe range, i would use fists and diamond sutra. 1~2 mobs = 1 diamond sutra. Mp costs were minimal this way and killing was efficient.

When i went from your build to pure str build, my hp went from 5k~6k to 2~2.5k. I was really worried about this, but once i put on the fists i saw that i could use chi. Before with axes i never used chi skills because i would never have enough chi. I also hit harder, mobs died sooner, also added the fact that i could use shadowless kick and diamond sutra at will. Life was good.

At lower lvls if i look back, if i had updated my gear and armour, i could have stayed a 3/2 build. I was always 20~40 lvls behind my lvl in gear, especially weapons. Once i switched to fists after restating, i never looked back.

What Maelael and Sakubatou are trying to illustrate, there is no need for you to reinvent the wheel. It has already been done. You are free to reinvent it again if you wish, but that is a waste of time and resources. In life, there are always priorities, if you get bogged down with useless, small things, you miss out on the big things. Sure you can have your "unique" build and not go APS for pve, but once you hit 100, i can assure you life be hard if you don't have merchanting money or real money. In bh mobs will make mince meat out of you. You will never keep agro, so no tanking for you. At best you will be support dd, hf'ing when people spark and gs at the next spark. If you only want to be regulated to those 2 skills in endgame, don't pay heed to others. If you want to keep your options open, listen and learn from others and than decide for yourself what you want based on your experience, knowledge, expertise, skills. Following any one person blindly will land you in serious trouble.

Edit - Wow, never saw Sakubatou's last post, we reached the same conclusion in a manner of speaking.

BlastFlare - Dreamweaver

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

This is now officially a troll thread, lol.

After reading their posts I'm not sure if Friendly or Blast have ever actually played a bm. They certainly don't understand the game mechanics. Not sure I should bother explaining things to them since they're being stupid just to be different. I'm sorry, having 40 vit and 40 less dex or strength doesn't make you "special" or unique. Playing well and using your skills properly does.

Pole skills tend to be weaker than axe skills. Poles lack spike damage. Pole weapons don't usually have SS. There also is a lack of good endgame poles. Primarily they're used for range damage and purge skills. Purge poles also tend to lack good damage adds.

Both of you seem to be battling people well below your level to shape your beliefs. 100 vit is nice under level 99 when the difference is 6k vs 7.5 so about 25%. Once you get refined though, 100 vit means 16.5k vs 15k ~10%. However both builds will have significantly reduced damage output or accuracy. You might tank an extra hit (or not. 1500 hp isn't significant when you're being hit for 2-5k average) but you wont end a fight because you're damage output is poor.

Friendly, I don't even know where to start with you. Your knowledge is just... frigging sad. First, aps gear isn't pvp gear. Hotkey gear and swap like a smart bm. Second, 400 str and 200 dex. Second, full r9 is not the best defense. R9rr or R9r is, but realistically R9/G16 mix is, and you can even sub in R8r pieces.

+12 r9 with 60 dex vs a +12 r9 with 200 dex, so 140 more points in str vs 140 more in dex. You're looking at 610 str vs 470 str. Add in rings, character levels, Phys attack adds, attack levels and most importantly weapon mastery... the dph difference is gonna be around 15% unsparked . Meanwhile the accuracy difference is 1200 vs 4000 and evasion of 900 vs 2300, and 7% more crit (more zerk crits). Their hp should be the same, or you can give up the dph boost for 2k more hp. Eitherway, you're looking at less accuracy, less crit, less evasion for 1% more pdef reduction and 15% dph or about 15% more hp.

Not to mention you'll hinder your farming ability by not being able solo things on paint heals or find squads or kill things as effectively. Hope you cash shop to support your 'special' self. Glad you guys are happy limiting yourself so much. The rest of us will be more versatile.

I am not sure you know who the real troll is when you are pushing your build like a jehovah witness. Besides, not everyone wants to be a run-of-the-mill 5APS BM. Look at it this way, You are happy with your build, and I am happy with my build; I don't see why you even bother. It's not like I am going to hell... oh, wait my BM will be a Demon so I will.

Besides, If I wanted to be a Damage Dealer than I would log in as my wizard to out damage all the classes with out wasting too much money on over priced gear based on stat bonuses. b:scorn

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

BlastFlare - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I am not sure you know who the real troll is when you are pushing your build like a jehovah witness. Besides, not everyone wants to be a run-of-the-mill 5APS BM. Look at it this way, You are happy with your build, and I am happy with my build; I don't see why you even bother. It's not like I am going to hell... oh, wait my BM will be a Demon so I will.

Besides, If I wanted to be a Damage Dealer than I would log in as my wizard to out damage all the classes with out wasting too much money on over priced gear based on stat bonuses. b:scorn

Your right. It was me who posted a thread that is basically an aps build -50 points for vit then pushed it as 'omgamazingorz!' Check my first post, it was respectful. Check my second reply trying to mediate you and Maelael, him talking from experience and you telling him he's an idiot. Then check the facts in my third post that showed how much bs your posts have been.

I'm sorry. Your build is not original. Its an aps build where you stole damage/accuracy/defense and a current level weapon in trade for 750 hp. And after 67 levels of experience you still haven't figured out what weapon to use and when to use it. Thanks for the reply.
b:bye

Jaabg - Sanctuary

BlastFlare - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I am not sure you know who the real troll is when you are pushing your build like a jehovah witness. Besides, not everyone wants to be a run-of-the-mill 5APS BM. Look at it this way, You are happy with your build, and I am happy with my build; I don't see why you even bother. It's not like I am going to hell... oh, wait my BM will be a Demon so I will.

Besides, If I wanted to be a Damage Dealer than I would log in as my wizard to out damage all the classes with out wasting too much money on over priced gear based on stat bonuses. b:scorn

So far I only know of one wizzy whom i can not take agro from. When he was r9+12, i had agro mostly. When he went R9 recast+12, agro pingpong started, with him being the agro taker. When he got R9 3rd cast+12, i could not take agro from him with my g16+10, 5 aps. Unless your Wizzy is at the same level as the aforementioned wizzy, i don't think your wizzy will count as a "DD" over my bm. In the end you will be spending more money to be considered a DD by your definition compared to my bm's dd b:bye.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Your right. It was me who posted a thread that is basically an aps build -50 points for vit then pushed it as 'omgamazingorz!' Check my first post, it was respectful. Check my second reply trying to mediate you and Maelael, him talking from experience and you telling him he's an idiot. Then check the facts in my third post that showed how much bs your posts have been.

I'm sorry. Your build is not original. Its an aps build where you stole damage/accuracy/defense and a current level weapon in trade for 750 hp. And after 67 levels of experience you still haven't figured out what weapon to use and when to use it. Thanks for the reply.
b:bye

And thats why I was like "Troll alert" when your respectful post was practically ignored.

BlastFlare - Dreamweaver

Assuming everyone that isn't a 5APS build is a troll is idiocy. Besides I think all of you are trolls for dismissing the possibly of other builds. I could careless if my build is old school. It's my BM and it works for me.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

BlastFlare - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Assuming everyone that isn't a 5APS build is a troll is idiocy. Besides I think all of you are trolls for dismissing the possibly of other builds. I could careless if my build is old school. It's my BM and it works for me.

Your attitude, approach, and reasoning makes you a troll/dumb.

There are plenty of non aps built BMs I don't begrudge. But they approach it from a reasonable, healthy standpoint and understand their limitations vs other options.

You need to get over your dislike of APS, really. In the end you're really only holding yourself and others back by not playing better, aps or not.

StellaNova - Raging Tide

about APS to make it simple, You attack faster doing more damage = the mob don't hit you so much 'cause it will die quicker.

Had my bm fail build, used point's on vit and mag on my lower lvls, got corrected in my build, but did a restat around lvl 75, to a 3 str 2 dex build, without any APS gear and TT70 armor at that lvl, i found out that the damage i do saves hp and using Sutra and pots a lot less than before the reset.

being at lvl 81 now, with fists/claws and axes never had regreets about the build I reset to. Still no APS gear, tho looking at some of it, but my coins decide that lol

I_am_noob - Dreamweaver

BlastFlare - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Assuming everyone that isn't a 5APS build is a troll is idiocy. Besides I think all of you are trolls for dismissing the possibly of other builds. I could careless if my build is old school. It's my BM and it works for me.

ok so ....noone said that no aps build is fail
but you fail to listen to people who know more abouth BM than you
first of all by going 3str 2dex you can use bouth weapons ...axe and fist/claw
by adding some vit you you will get some more HP(wont save you at all) but you lose out on dmg and wont be able to use up to date weapons and that means it will take more hits to kill mobs and at same time it will mean you will get more hits from mob and have bigger chance to die...and again few points in vit wont help there
main thing you miss out is to be able to help your squad to kill faster(aps things to death and gain fast chi for HF/GS)
making axe BM is not bad thing but do it right....if you dont want aps make axe build and not something that you came up whit becos you will fail again
at some point you will see that people here were traying to give you some good advice or you will make fail BM and quit on it becos you didnt listen and think how BM is bad class to play not taking in consideration it was your fault
BM can be great aoe and great single target dmg if you build it right so why not make best of it

Jaabg - Sanctuary

I_am_noob - Dreamweaver wrote: »

at same time it will mean you will get more hits from mob and have bigger chance to die...and again few points in vit wont help there

Since OP has not reached endgame yet. I will elaborate what I_am_noob said. Mobs is all fine, we can charm tank them out, because we pro like that b:victory.

The issue comes with bosses that have aoe, since the build proposed will never have agro, unless a random agro switches.

You have 50 vit points, that is roughly 750 hp, because you have 750 extra hp, chances are you will not refine higher because you feel that you are in a comfortable range.

A boss's aoe can range anywhere from 1k to 15k, and even higher if you have the wrong marrow on or no protection.

In a situation where you know the boss will aoe. That aoe will kill you regardless of what your hp is. What do you want, put more points in HP and act pro when squad wipes and you remain, and boss turns and one shots you? Or help with the dd, so as to kill the boss before that aoe comes around?

Sins can survive if their deaden nerves is intact, bm's have no such options, so when that boss aoes for more than your hp, that charm is not going to save you. The alternatives suggested, increase your DD, so you kill faster since you are going to die anyways or wait on that 1 in million (expression) chance that the aoe misses you?

Let's put it another way, the reason why i went aps. If a boss hits you for 9k, your hp is 10k. Normal attacks are 2k from boss. The next hit the boss does on you, you will be dead. If you went aps, chances are in the next 1~3 seconds you gained back your hp to just above 2k, giving you a total time of 3~6 seconds. That may be enough time to click on skills, pots, spark, ad, ig, charm to recover or do something to keep on fighting. If you decided to swing away with your pole, sword and used a skill, by the time the skill hits, you will be dead.

I hope you can begin to understand why when we suggest all weapons path, we use ALL weapons depending on the situation. Choosing the wrong weapon in a situation can lead to death. If you are tanking a boss and taking damage, aps is your friend. If you are tanking lots of mobs, aoe is your friend. If you switch to sword, pole, axe when you have agro, most likely you will die. If you switch to fists while tanking a wave in delta or a pull in lunar/warsong, chances are you will die because the BP+heals from a single target is not enough to cover the incoming damage from mobs, where as aoe would have been enough.

There have been multiple times during delta stage 3, barb/seeker is dead, i am out of bb range, but i can aoe, I live just fine by being able to aoe while others rez and get rebuffed. Had i switched to fists/claws/sword/pole, i would have died and caused a squad wipe. No one likes dying, and if you have the ability to stop it, but for some reason it goes against your "uniquness" to do so, that is a sad squad to be in.

The people who recommend all path BM, have most often lvled all their skills and some/most even have all the demon skills for all weapons. They just understand what weapon to use for what situation and not rely on any one/two for the game play.

BlastFlare - Dreamweaver

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

Since OP has not reached endgame yet. I will elaborate what I_am_noob said. Mobs is all fine, we can charm tank them out, because we pro like that b:victory.

The issue comes with bosses that have aoe, since the build proposed will never have agro, unless a random agro switches.

You have 50 vit points, that is roughly 750 hp, because you have 750 extra hp, chances are you will not refine higher because you feel that you are in a comfortable range.

A boss's aoe can range anywhere from 1k to 15k, and even higher if you have the wrong marrow on or no protection.

In a situation where you know the boss will aoe. That aoe will kill you regardless of what your hp is. What do you want, put more points in HP and act pro when squad wipes and you remain, and boss turns and one shots you? Or help with the dd, so as to kill the boss before that aoe comes around?

Sins can survive if their deaden nerves is intact, bm's have no such options, so when that boss aoes for more than your hp, that charm is not going to save you. The alternatives suggested, increase your DD, so you kill faster since you are going to die anyways or wait on that 1 in million (expression) chance that the aoe misses you?

Let's put it another way, the reason why i went aps. If a boss hits you for 9k, your hp is 10k. Normal attacks are 2k from boss. The next hit the boss does on you, you will be dead. If you went aps, chances are in the next 1~3 seconds you gained back your hp to just above 2k, giving you a total time of 3~6 seconds. That may be enough time to click on skills, pots, spark, ad, ig, charm to recover or do something to keep on fighting. If you decided to swing away with your pole, sword and used a skill, by the time the skill hits, you will be dead.

I hope you can begin to understand why when we suggest all weapons path, we use ALL weapons depending on the situation. Choosing the wrong weapon in a situation can lead to death. If you are tanking a boss and taking damage, aps is your friend. If you are tanking lots of mobs, aoe is your friend. If you switch to sword, pole, axe when you have agro, most likely you will die. If you switch to fists while tanking a wave in delta or a pull in lunar/warsong, chances are you will die because the BP+heals from a single target is not enough to cover the incoming damage from mobs, where as aoe would have been enough.

There have been multiple times during delta stage 3, barb/seeker is dead, i am out of bb range, but i can aoe, I live just fine by being able to aoe while others rez and get rebuffed. Had i switched to fists/claws/sword/pole, i would have died and caused a squad wipe. No one likes dying, and if you have the ability to stop it, but for some reason it goes against your "uniquness" to do so, that is a sad squad to be in.

The people who recommend all path BM, have most often lvled all their skills and some/most even have all the demon skills for all weapons. They just understand what weapon to use for what situation and not rely on any one/two for the game play.

I use all weapons like you described... but when I am stuck in a situation where the AOE will kills me 100% of the time.... I am forced to hang back and start shooting it with a bow....b:shutup But I haven't been in a situation that has called for that yet... Aside from helping with World Boss (but that was PW MY ENG)

b:surrender Probably one of the main reasons why I play with a lot of vit is because I play 99% of the game charmless with custom made gear that has loads of attribute point bonuses(I am usually unlucky at times) to help with equipping axes and fists outside of my build.

Level: 76
Base stats: Vit: 67 Mag: 5 Str 173 dex: 105
Stats w/gear: Vit: 94 Mag: 5 Str 177 dex: 124 (haven't been too lucky with Str points)

I can't afford to pay for entertainment. If I removed the vit from my build, I would die a lot more often. I am in my 70s and I don't have to worry about my attack speed as much/yet nor will my build let me worry about tanking responsibilities.... that might be why people see me as a "troll" when I am just stubborn about it...

I don't even FC ether because it's a waste of money for me and I don't mind the grind, because making a long game short will make me want to pay for another game. But when ever I do reach the 90s who knows, I might restat... or I might not. I will cross that bridge when I get there depend on if I still like my build or how much I am willing to pay.

Hell, I don't even know how to make money in this game anymore at level 67 other than grinding DQ items. I used to sell Ultimate Substances for 50k each or more when I played PW MY ENG, but the packs kind of killed that business in PWI. I would probably sell big rooms if I were high enough to solo FC.... bit that will take me a while and I am in no rush.