Magic Def charms and Marrows

Jaabg - Sanctuary

I was curious, how do magic def charms and marrow interact?

If i have phy marrow on, does the magic def charm cut the magic attack based on my current magic defense? Based on original or my non marrowed defense?

If i have magic marrow on, does the magic charm reduce more of the incoming magic attack compared to having phy marrow on or no marrow at all?

Is it best to have magic marrow, phy marrow or no marrow when tanking bosses that do big magic attacks?

Would having cleric buffs, help, hinder the magic defense charms? Similarly, would dew of protection increase, decrease or not affect the magic def charms effectiveness?

During tw i am usually running around in magic marrow and magic def charms, do they help reduce the incoming attack of other players? or are they scaled down for pvp purposes?

I am just starting to learn about these awesome in-game items, so thought i would ask here.

Nowitsawn - Heavens Tear

Those charms just reduce your incoming damage by 50%. Exactly like BB does, but for 1 hit.

-If a hit without magic marrow is 1000, it will be 500 with a charm on.

-If a hit with magic marrow is 500, it will be 250 with a charm on.

-If a hit with physical marrow is 2000, it will be 1000 with a charm on.

As you can see, it has the most effect against an attack that hits for large amounts of damage. That is why using a magic charm while magic marrowed is kind of pointless (usually), because you are already protected against magic.

I say ''usually'', because bosses like Snakefist can still hit very hard through magic marrow, which makes both marrow and a charm very useful on him. That is, when things go wrong. I find them to be a little too costly to be using them all the time.

So:

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

If i have phy marrow on, does the magic def charm cut the magic attack based on my current magic defense? Based on original or my non marrowed defense?

Phys marrow makes you take increased magic damage because your magic defenses get lowered, this increased damage will be cut in half by the charm.

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

If i have magic marrow on, does the magic charm reduce more of the incoming magic attack compared to having phy marrow on or no marrow at all?

You take less magic damage and that damage still only gets cut in half, so they will be less effective.

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

Is it best to have magic marrow, phy marrow or no marrow when tanking bosses that do big magic attacks?

Don't even play a BM myself so can't really answer that. I guess without a marrow because bosses rarely stick to only 1 type of attack.

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

Would having cleric buffs, help, hinder the magic defense charms? Similarly, would dew of protection increase, decrease or not affect the magic def charms effectiveness?

The charm would still cut your incoming damage in half.

Dews give you such a great defense bonus that your damage intake is so minimal that cutting it in half would be rather pointless.

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

During tw i am usually running around in magic marrow and magic def charms, do they help reduce the incoming attack of other players? or are they scaled down for pvp purposes?

They work the same way in pvp as they do in pve. Though people can still poke you with a weak attack to proc your charm before setting off a big attack.

Jaabg - Sanctuary

Thank you for your detailed reply Nowitsawn b:pleased. I am told often the bosses i can not tank in tt, are simply because i don't use magic charms with phy marrow on. That is why i am scared to try it out.

I did try the boss right after the exp room. The one that does mdef, pdef debuff. Without def charms i die. With phy marrow on, and using a def charm i can kill that boss easily.

I often have 1k~3k extra chi stones lying around after saving enough to refill a genie twice, so i usually make a few attack charms for axes, and some def charms. But yes, they can get quite expensive, quite quickly if there is no source for chi stones.


Another question, the damage done by the EP/subsea symbol in warsong wood mobs and by the Dark Colluseast in tt 3-x, is that amplifying the phy attack only? Or does it increase the magic attack as well? The only way i die at that boss is that i get that buff on me, and within 1~2 seconds later i am getting reacquainted with the floor.

TheDan - Sanctuary

Using magic def charms for PvE is unheard of on our server o_o; just use shadowless kick + demon bell + magic marrow.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

The bulk of mobs are either tanked physical marrowed or not marrowed at all.

Mobs have a 5:1 attack:special attack ratio usually. So if you marrow against their 1 special attack you are taking increased damage against 5 of their auto attacks in their 10 second cycle.

As TheDan said most the time you either physical marrow or use demon bell and then cancel their special attack with shadowless kick so you never have to face a magic attack.

There are a few bosses that have threatening magic attacks, like Wurlord. For him I pull with magic marrow on then switch to physical marrow once I'm up next to him. I had trouble with soloing Illusion for a while in 3-1 because of her magic attack. If I mag marrowed the increased damage of the physical attacks would get me. If I phys marrowed the magic attack would get me. Eventually I had a good balance of mag marrowing right before her attack, switching to phys marrow right after, and triple spark resisting the next magic attack attack.

Jaabg - Sanctuary

I was thinking more along the lines for Minister and emperor in 3-2, 3-3. If i am tanking, i often get normal hit, and than by aoe, and i am dead. I know 7k is a sad excuse of hp to tank, but i try.

The other problem is, i am still getting familiar with those bosses, so i still don't know what to expect.

Wurlord i tanked fine with phy marrow on all the time, i just used earthquake and sparks. Nemen i can tank fine, the magic hit hurts, but spark, bp take care of it, no serious damage done. Deathflow also has a mean magic hit, but same as nemen, bp returns take care of it, didn't ever feel the need to cancel it.

Trying to find a way to tank the harder bosses in 3-2, 3-3 on bm. Beside upgrading refines for 10~14k hp, getting barb buffs, sage bp, hp charm, i can't think of much else i can do, other than wait until i have more hp to play with.

The alternative is, i use bell the first time, and have my other friend do it the next time, and keep magic marrow up, along with a def charm, and see if that helps. The problems occur with stuns, sleeps messing up the timings.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

I agree with both methods, Marrow switching and just hitting a Mag Def charm. I think they both work fine from experience and seeing others do it.

Some of the bosses I know who are only going to get off 1, maybe 2 mag attacks Ill just Mag Def charm it and have it done and over with. Even 4 Mag Def charms a boss fight is a drop in the bucket cost wise, so I kinda don't care - it saves me from any charm ticks for sure. I've noticed if I have the pmarrow up and a mag charm active, I charm tick. Can't be both it seems.

I've done marrow switching with TT bosses but it SUCKS if you mistime it. TBH Unless I know its a weak as hell magic attack, or I really, really know the boss pattern, or Im totally sure on mag vs phys mobs - I just do TT marrow-less and hit a mag def charm. I think its the perfectionist in me that gets pissed when I mistime marrow on those, and maybe charm tick once or twice a 3-3 anyways marrow less, especially with a mag def charm up.

Trials there's spots I pmarrow through. Warsong I'm still on the fence of where to marrow and maybe use mag def charms.

Any ideas on Warsong is appreciated - really I've just gotten lazy and into speed runs in warsong and just toss 1/4-1/2 a silver charm to get through it faster. But if theres solid spots or times on bosses to marrow at to save a few charm ticks thats groovy. Although I really dont charm tick on bosses unless incarcerate goes bad and I gotta kite him when he 5 APS-es (at least 1-2 ticks).

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Any ideas on Warsong is appreciated - really I've just gotten lazy and into speed runs in warsong and just toss 1/4-1/2 a silver charm to get through it faster. But if theres solid spots or times on bosses to marrow at to save a few charm ticks thats groovy. Although I really dont charm tick on bosses unless incarcerate goes bad and I gotta kite him when he 5 APS-es (at least 1-2 ticks).

Metal boss- Phys marrow or no marrow. If phys, try to cancel aoe/magic charm.
Earth boss- Phys marrow. I think the mobs do ranged magic but stun and kill before they attack.
Fire boss- Phys marrow
Water boss- ...dunno. I'd guess phys marrow but not sure.
Wood boss- Not sure either. Again I'd guess phys marrow.
Incarnate- Not sure. I really focus on building chi, HF cooldown, and then stun+HF+mire when mob appears. I also try to save genie chi for resist the purge and the huge 1-shot hit so I can HF + cloud eruption and then trip spark resist if I need. As for marrowing I'd guess physical. Most the magic attacks I notice come from the mobs and are weak.

And for each path mobs do ranged elemental and physical melee. If I'm clearing it clericless I mag marrow + demon bell combo. The most painful path is water which has the water DoT that **** me. You'd think water **** would be more...lubey.

Jaabg - Sanctuary

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Any ideas on Warsong is appreciated - really I've just gotten lazy and into speed runs in warsong and just toss 1/4-1/2 a silver charm to get through it faster. But if theres solid spots or times on bosses to marrow at to save a few charm ticks thats groovy. Although I really dont charm tick on bosses unless incarcerate goes bad and I gotta kite him when he 5 APS-es (at least 1-2 ticks).

Water mobs = magic marrow for me, i use will of bod to pull them, that makes me immune to their occult ice thingy.

Metal mobs = magic marrow on always.

Fire mobs = magic marrow on always.

Earth mobs = not sure, i have tried both, but they seem to be a mix, the sand tornado thingy hurts me the most. If i have to pull, i use will of bod, so i don't get frozen on spot.

Wood mobs = They do EP, impact, and the phy/mag def change, or something similar. I have an issue with those, but i am usually using magic marrow there. With a good squad, i just hf there, build chi back and be ready to hf or gs the next group depending on killing speed. GS if we kill one set/s in 15 seconds or less, otherwise hf if we take 20~35 seconds.

Metal boss = in frenzy i use mdef charms or spark it out if spark is ready. If i am tanking, i don't use marrows and use mdef charms.

Fire boss = phy marrow, just before he does the aoe, i use mss on the boss, saves a charm tick for most people.

Earth boss = no idea, never get to tank him, i hf, boss dies, very annyoing.

Water boss = magic marrow on, incase i get occult ice thing, and if the boss is in frenzy when he does that, magic marrow helps reduce the damage.

Wood boss = when tanking, i use no marrow and def charms to be safe. If not tanking, no def charms.

Incarnate - phy attack from the few times i tanked him, because squad wiped. If he does frenzy after the last add, usually a squad wipe no matter how i cut it.

Advanced boss = seem to be physical for most part, they have some magic animation going on at times, but i am never sure, i try not to tank them, since they require me to be perma sparked, and only hf when genie allows. Most of the time bosses die too quick for me to learn about them.

I have no clue about tt bosses, so still learning about them, having a low hp is a big hindrance. Maybe after a few months i'll try them out again when back in the game for longer than 20~40 minutes.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

Gonna combine your ideas/replies while Im waiting on people on the west coast to get the hell to work.

Overall on bosses, I don't marrow and don't charm tick. Only if the cleric is slow at getting BB up or I do something stupid, do I charm tick on them. Mind you my concerns usually with this is my non-regular-optimal squad of 2-3 BMs, 1 Sin, Psy, Cleric, and an Archer if we have no 3rd BM. With my regular crew I only charm tick by choice to move us faster, and the bosses practically disappear instantly - and the Psy & Cleric gets rid of stuns and etc on us.

Also, my faction did non-mob clearing runs recently, just went straight at the bosses - 2 BMs, 2 Sin, Psy and Cleric I think it was. So its doable, just gotta be ready to pour out the damage and be OP.

I think if we can compile and test out some info, we could do a kewl guide like the Nirvvy one.

Metal boss- Phys marrow or no marrow. If phys, try to cancel aoe/magic charm.
Metal boss = in frenzy i use mdef charms or spark it out if spark is ready. If i am tanking, i don't use marrows and use mdef charms.

Metal mobs = magic marrow on always.

I agree on mdef charms. I've tried phys marrow a few times on the boss, and the second he nukes I have to go back to the start to find where my butt got blown off to. When I use mag marrow, even with bell combo its like charm tick city and I swear it doesnt knock his mag attack down enough.

I'm gonna try magic marrow on the mobs here again. I know they melee, I remember it being pitiful, and I swear the swords are mostly casting. We'll see, I always do it marrowless.

Earth boss- Phys marrow. I think the mobs do ranged magic but stun and kill before they attack.
Earth boss = no idea, never get to tank him, i hf, boss dies, very annyoing.

Earth mobs = not sure, i have tried both, but they seem to be a mix, the sand tornado thingy hurts me the most. If i have to pull, i use will of bod, so i don't get frozen on spot.

So far I've tried phys marrow twice with kinda...the same results as no marrow on the boss. Charm tick if I rush too fast at the start, but overall no charm ticks/easy peasy.

Earth mobs Im usually too busy pulling, almost sure its mostly phys. But you're right on the Sand tornado, this may be a just don't marrow at all path.

Fire boss- Phys marrow
Fire boss = phy marrow, just before he does the aoe, i use mss on the boss, saves a charm tick for most people.

Fire mobs = magic marrow on always.

Phys marrow on the boss, really. I swear I was trying that and got nailed really hard and went back to no marrow and was fine. Ill try that again. I may try MSS in a group if the boss lasts that long ever again. Last time was on my barb and I almost fell asleep tanking it for like 5-6 minutes with no cleric or mystic.

Mag marrow on the mobs is kinda standard. Especially when pulling. Its kinda automatic and I forget I do that all the time.

Water boss- ...dunno. I'd guess phys marrow but not sure.
Water boss = magic marrow on, incase i get occult ice thing, and if the boss is in frenzy when he does that, magic marrow helps reduce the damage.

Water mobs = magic marrow for me, i use will of bod to pull them, that makes me immune to their occult ice thingy.

Sooooooooo far on the boss Mag marrow tends to get me wasted, but does save on the mag damage. This was a boss Id figure try switching the two. Maybe a mag marrow and bell combo, but I find that mag def charms work well here.

Other than stun immunes, I have no opinions on these annoying mobs. They steal chi, and really idea is get them down asap. Trying to group these and AOE seems to be inefficient and you're better off having the team aps them down asap.

Wood boss- Not sure either. Again I'd guess phys marrow.
Wood boss = when tanking, i use no marrow and def charms to be safe. If not tanking, no def charms.

Wood mobs = They do EP, impact, and the phy/mag def change, or something similar. I have an issue with those, but i am usually using magic marrow there. With a good squad, i just hf there, build chi back and be ready to hf or gs the next group depending on killing speed. GS if we kill one set/s in 15 seconds or less, otherwise hf if we take 20~35 seconds.

I tried Phys marrow on this boss and tbh I didn't notice a difference. I dont use any def charms, notta, just tank the **** outta it and it dies. I find both versions to be the easiest boss.

Sooooo far, Im not sure on marrows, I think marrowless is best. I just either do whole squad aps or rush 1-3 groups and HF and try to AOE control them while others single target them down asap.

Incarnate- Not sure. I really focus on building chi, HF cooldown, and then stun+HF+mire when mob appears. I also try to save genie chi for resist the purge and the huge 1-shot hit so I can HF + cloud eruption and then trip spark resist if I need. As for marrowing I'd guess physical. Most the magic attacks I notice come from the mobs and are weak.
Incarnate - phy attack from the few times i tanked him, because squad wiped. If he does frenzy after the last add, usually a squad wipe no matter how i cut it.

So far pmarrow seems okay in the times Im tanking consistently. Aggro switches a lot on the teams I work with, and mostly the BM(s) are working on the stun and HF on the adds. The 2nd version is a joke, just 3 spark HF and pound away.

Jaabg - Sanctuary

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Gonna combine your ideas/replies while Im waiting on people on the west coast to get the hell to work.

Overall on bosses, I don't marrow and don't charm tick. Only if the cleric is slow at getting BB up or I do something stupid, do I charm tick on them. Mind you my concerns usually with this is my non-regular-optimal squad of 2-3 BMs, 1 Sin, Psy, Cleric, and an Archer if we have no 3rd BM. With my regular crew I only charm tick by choice to move us faster, and the bosses practically disappear instantly - and the Psy & Cleric gets rid of stuns and etc on us.

Also, my faction did non-mob clearing runs recently, just went straight at the bosses - 2 BMs, 2 Sin, Psy and Cleric I think it was. So its doable, just gotta be ready to pour out the damage and be OP.

I am running with different friend now. Our current set up is, 2 bm, 1 cleric, 1 sin, 1 veno, 1 barb (or someone else, but we get a barb usually). We apparently time our dd well, all bosses die before 1st spark is done. Not sure what we do as a group, but it works out.

BM 1 = demon, +10 g16 fist
BM 2 = demon +10 g16 claws
Sin = sage, +10 dark death thorns
barb = we invite any barb 90+ who ever is around. Sometimes they are OP, other times, just for debuffs, buffs and to have fun with us.
Cleric = not sure about cleric weapon, but we live, will check out weapon next time
veno = demon, +5 r8.

Previous runs it used to be 1 wizzy (and thanks to that wizzy i got my gear b:victory), 1 bm, 2 sins, 1 cleric, +1 any class (seekers mostly). Bosses didn't die as fast, but since the pullers were OP, especially the wizzy, (some sins, archer), they pulled all the mobs in that pavilion. Sometimes metal and earth got pulled together. So both pavilions got killed together. I often die because i get agro with my fabled tt99 gold axes at +3 (the aoe does not kill me b:infuriated b:avoid).

Depending on how OP people are in squads, i time hf, gs when people do the maids. Maids fall within 2~4 seconds of hf. Aps helps, but one strong dd is all you need with hf, mire, and any other debuff possible. Having +12 r9 wizzy helps.

The people i ran with when the content was released, were mostly r9+10~+12 people.

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I think if we can compile and test out some info, we could do a kewl guide like the Nirvvy one.

I would like to help by sharing my experiences for that, i always find it annoying that most of the times i don't know which marrow to use. When i starts sot or aba, i asked people, and they would not know at all, i learned by soloing the mobs there a few times after bh just to see things and get the quests done in there.

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I agree on mdef charms. I've tried phys marrow a few times on the boss, and the second he nukes I have to go back to the start to find where my butt got blown off to. When I use mag marrow, even with bell combo its like charm tick city and I swear it doesnt knock his mag attack down enough.

I'm gonna try magic marrow on the mobs here again. I know they melee, I remember it being pitiful, and I swear the swords are mostly casting. We'll see, I always do it marrowless.

Metal

I would never dare try phy marrow on the metal boss. I have 7k hp base, 9~10k buffed, nearly not enough to try out phy marrow for fun. I do all my runs without charms, because i get charm ticks at each mob, boss and about 200~800k charm will vanish in warsong for me.

If there is a veno in squad, s/he can pruge the boss, but not sure if the timing of purge works with the cool down, sometimes the frenzy comes on very quickly. If i am not tanking, hg, gs are in cool down, i switch to tt99 purge pole and hope for the best. In low dd squads, if boss gets purged the first 2~3 times, the squad is safe. If boss is still alive after that, the squishy ones will start dying. Sometimes the damage from the boss will not show up on the log. There have been times where it says boss hits 4k, but nothing after. Other time it says boss hits 17k and i know why i died.

I use mag marrow because of dino frontal aoe seems to be magic for me. The swords buff themselves at times, they get quicken, bless and one other buff i forget. The range attack from swords shows a magic animation, that is why i stick with magic marrow here, could be wrong.

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Phys marrow on the boss, really. I swear I was trying that and got nailed really hard and went back to no marrow and was fine. Ill try that again. I may try MSS in a group if the boss lasts that long ever again. Last time was on my barb and I almost fell asleep tanking it for like 5-6 minutes with no cleric or mystic.

Mag marrow on the mobs is kinda standard. Especially when pulling. Its kinda automatic and I forget I do that all the time.

Fire

I have experienced the same as you as well. Especially at the start of the fight when i haven't sparked yet, but boss is hitting me. I get one shot with no damage log, i tried both marrows, and neither one helps. After i am sparked, i can tank the boss fine with no issue. Often time when i am sparked, i let me marrow run out, or not use marrow to start with.

I make sure there is no marrow when the boss is about to aoe, since i am not sure what the aoe is. I use mss rather than hf at those times, because boss is close to death, but will take another 4~10 seconds, and someone might die because cleric might not be charmed, or bb drops due to mp drain.

With my current friends, that i listed above, 2bm, sin...., boss dies in under 15 seconds. On bh runs, the boss takes longer usually.

The advanced version of the boss is some concern as well. He comes buffed and can one shot people. Our veno is awesome possum at purging, so no issues for us. A few times my purge pole worked. Most people just run the boss around until the buff wears off and start the dd after that.

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Sooooooooo far on the boss Mag marrow tends to get me wasted, but does save on the mag damage. This was a boss Id figure try switching the two. Maybe a mag marrow and bell combo, but I find that mag def charms work well here.

Other than stun immunes, I have no opinions on these annoying mobs. They steal chi, and really idea is get them down asap. Trying to group these and AOE seems to be inefficient and you're better off having the team aps them down asap.

Water

I should point out, most bosses i am not tanking, or there is severe ping pong happening. It appears as if no one in the squad is losing hp except the boss. That is why i use the magic marrow on this boss. There are times though when i got agro and a 3k hit get me killed, because it becomes 7~12k.

If i am not marrowed, the bubble will kill me before it goes away. Often times the boss bubbles people 2~3 times, individuals. After that is the aoe bubble. If we still take eons, the next few aoe bubbles are accompanied with the frenzy so they will hit harder, and if bb is down, usually results in squad wipe. This happens no matter how OP the squad is, usually starts with someone being too eager and starts attacking the boss before others are ready. That is why i favour timing from all members in the squad.

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I tried Phys marrow on this boss and tbh I didn't notice a difference. I dont use any def charms, notta, just tank the **** outta it and it dies. I find both versions to be the easiest boss.

Sooooo far, Im not sure on marrows, I think marrowless is best. I just either do whole squad aps or rush 1-3 groups and HF and try to AOE control them while others single target them down asap.

Wood

The advanced version is meaner. He will purge the tanker. That becomes a big issue, he already hits like 3~4k when i am buffed in bb. Without buffs, i get one shot by this boss, if squad does not rebuff quickly. The normal version is not much of an issue.

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

So far pmarrow seems okay in the times Im tanking consistently. Aggro switches a lot on the teams I work with, and mostly the BM(s) are working on the stun and HF on the adds. The 2nd version is a joke, just 3 spark HF and pound away.

Final boss

When we tank the final boss, we make sure the tank has agro. I switch to using axes only, so as not to steal agro, or purge pole. I have had bad experiences in lower instances like pole, nob, eden, older seat and aba bosses, when agro switches. The aoes killed me on the spot.

The final version of the boss has a similar behaviour like the bm wygie boss in lunar. They both buff themselves an obscene amount of time. It's like they become perma buffed. The warsong adv boss buffs are not as strong, and really hard to purge because of the times he rebuffs, but he dies far more quickly when he is not buffed compared to when buffed.

Our posts will become quite long if we keep on quoting replies b:sad.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

Fire -
The advanced version of the boss is some concern as well. He comes buffed and can one shot people. Our veno is awesome possum at purging, so no issues for us. A few times my purge pole worked. Most people just run the boss around until the buff wears off and start the dd after that.

Theres a trick to that. If this translates to text well...

If you pull back to the 2nd corner from the boss (setup BB there), by the time he gets there his self buff is done. Essentially if you think how a U is written, where the U ends is where the boss spawns, and the bottom left corner is where you want to pull to (2nd corner).

Earth-
The advanced version is meaner. He will purge the tanker. That becomes a big issue, he already hits like 3~4k when i am buffed in bb. Without buffs, i get one shot by this boss, if squad does not rebuff quickly. The normal version is not much of an issue.

We always do earth last due to the purge, to rebuff after. TBH he always dies right after the purge, but usually the sin re-bps during it. I think the purge is on a timer, not sure how long/much.

I don't remember it being anywhere near 3-4k hits...but Ill watch next time I do it.