Pure aps sage tank build-keeping aggro?

Cathulion - Dreamweaver

I'm currently restating my BM to become a pure tank APS bm(Minimum STR and DEX):

http://pwcalc.com/76379b031032f47b

~What he will be after x2(With cleric and bell lvl 10, still working on sage bell).

I made him pure DD APS but my 5aps demon sin out-DD's him by far and is just way too much fun for that. So I decided to restat him to this for the things my sin cannot handle. But seeing as he's damage will drop a LOT how can I keep aggro vs 5aps archers/sins on bosses when needed?

Extra info: I got Sage cyclone heel so I can stay 4aps 20seconds/respark until I get a pangu later this year and reforge r8 chestplate for 0.05 interval and be 5aps base. Gear is +3 due to that I'm still needing to make it, so will +3 it all to begin with and +4 them and up slowly.

Morridune - Raging Tide

upgrade weap and refines dps tanking is all about how much damage u do end of the day, so if u wanna tank u need more dps or to play with ppl who know aggro management

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

For tanking I'd recomend LA boots and wrist and magical or physical ornies. This is an old argument among BMs. LA boots/wrists offers better pdef and mdef than HA boots/wrists+evasion ornies because the ornies are going to refine for alot more defense than the boots and wrists would refine for hp. However, some will argue that the evasion ornies are easier to swap out for mdef/pdef ornies when you are pulling/aoeing. But if we're comparing LA evasion ornies to LA wrist+boots the LA wrist and boots gives better defenses comparative to the small hp gain of HA.

Cyclone heel is a damage bump but a small one. A typical spark cycle is 18 seconds, 3 of it is sparking and 15 of it is attacking. As a sage BM you will be in a 20 second spark cycle, 2 seconds cycloning, 3 seconds sparking, 15 seconds attacking. So after 18 seconds an equal aps demon will have attacked 33% more than you.

If you are expecting a large gain from sage cyclone when sparking compare yourself giving up 2 second of the 15 seconds. You'll be 4.0 instead of 3.33, a 20% dps gain, but a spark cycle becomes 20 seconds instead of 18 seconds, an 11% loss. So it's a 10% gain overall.

Upgrade your rings. They'll refine better and offer more attack and therefore more aggro. Plus, sage bell doesn't mean much if you don't have a good base defense for it to multiply.



Two things about aps tanking. One, the person with the most dd tanks. An R9 sin has about 200k dps... this build has 53k dps. Just about any demon bm you run into will also out dd you. I'm working on a 215k dps demon bm build so this would do less than 1/4 of that. What I'm saying is you aren't going to tank unless you focus on damage as much as defenses.

Second, the more dps you have the more paint heals you receive and the better you survive. You are statting away from strength, which offers more pdef than vitality does. Yes, you'll have more hp but you'll get hit harder too. You also won't get back as much heals. A while ago I used an analogy of hp and bloodpaint heals being like filling a bucket with a hole in it. You are the bucket, the water your hp, and the hole is the amount of damage you take. The more damage you take the quicker the water leaves the bucket. The more damage you deal them more water is put back into the bucket. Trading strength for vitality is like getting a bigger bucket and a bigger hole. You'll start with more water in the bucket but it will also leave quicker and be harder to refill. Since BMs are melee we normally force mobs into melee attacks, so about 90% of the damage we take is physical. The stuff that really hurts is magical. Strength helps the 90% hits we take, vit helps the 10% magical attacks we take that really hurt. Your decision on what your gear needs.

seronja101

sakobatou can you link your BMs buils...just wondering abouth gear
allso can someon compare g16+10 sins dmg to g16+10 claws....do we get outdamaged by a lot from sins?

Maelael - Heavens Tear

seronja101 wrote: »

allso can someon compare g16+10 sins dmg to g16+10 claws....do we get outdamaged by a lot from sins?

This should be an easy already understood answer for you.

http://www.pwdatabase.com

Daggers hit 12% harder. Also, because their damage comes from dex, and ours from strength, they aren't splitting their stats and have heavier damage from stats.

At even refines and attack levels they should always outdamage us.

Cathulion - Dreamweaver

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

For tanking I'd recomend LA boots and wrist and magical or physical ornies. This is an old argument among BMs. LA boots/wrists offers better pdef and mdef than HA boots/wrists+evasion ornies because the ornies are going to refine for alot more defense than the boots and wrists would refine for hp. However, some will argue that the evasion ornies are easier to swap out for mdef/pdef ornies when you are pulling/aoeing. But if we're comparing LA evasion ornies to LA wrist+boots the LA wrist and boots gives better defenses comparative to the small hp gain of HA.

Cyclone heel is a damage bump but a small one. A typical spark cycle is 18 seconds, 3 of it is sparking and 15 of it is attacking. As a sage BM you will be in a 20 second spark cycle, 2 seconds cycloning, 3 seconds sparking, 15 seconds attacking. So after 18 seconds an equal aps demon will have attacked 33% more than you.

If you are expecting a large gain from sage cyclone when sparking compare yourself giving up 2 second of the 15 seconds. You'll be 4.0 instead of 3.33, a 20% dps gain, but a spark cycle becomes 20 seconds instead of 18 seconds, an 11% loss. So it's a 10% gain overall.

Upgrade your rings. They'll refine better and offer more attack and therefore more aggro. Plus, sage bell doesn't mean much if you don't have a good base defense for it to multiply.



Two things about aps tanking. One, the person with the most dd tanks. An R9 sin has about 200k dps... this build has 53k dps. Just about any demon bm you run into will also out dd you. I'm working on a 215k dps demon bm build so this would do less than 1/4 of that. What I'm saying is you aren't going to tank unless you focus on damage as much as defenses.

Second, the more dps you have the more paint heals you receive and the better you survive. You are statting away from strength, which offers more pdef than vitality does. Yes, you'll have more hp but you'll get hit harder too. You also won't get back as much heals. A while ago I used an analogy of hp and bloodpaint heals being like filling a bucket with a hole in it. You are the bucket, the water your hp, and the hole is the amount of damage you take. The more damage you take the quicker the water leaves the bucket. The more damage you deal them more water is put back into the bucket. Trading strength for vitality is like getting a bigger bucket and a bigger hole. You'll start with more water in the bucket but it will also leave quicker and be harder to refill. Since BMs are melee we normally force mobs into melee attacks, so about 90% of the damage we take is physical. The stuff that really hurts is magical. Strength helps the 90% hits we take, vit helps the 10% magical attacks we take that really hurt. Your decision on what your gear needs.

So how much VIT and STR do you suggest I put into tank build? I'm also planning on using BM to kill TT bosses that my sin gets wiped on when I run with my wifey duo.

HideYoHubby - Archosaur

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

This should be an easy already understood answer for you.

http://www.pwdatabase.com

Daggers hit 12% harder. Also, because their damage comes from dex, and ours from strength, they aren't splitting their stats and have heavier damage from stats.

At even refines and attack levels they should always outdamage us.

Have you actually done math regading daggers? I dont doubt it, 12% sounds realistic. My point is, G16 fists got same base dmg as G16 daggers, which I do find unfair due quicker base attack rate. But this makes the only difference between daggers and claws to be the full dex build vs split stat points and crit rate. With older generation daggers/claws, daggers also hit harder, making sins deal so much more dmg.

But if OP wants to tank, one should upgrade weapon. I dont suggest refining deicides, at +12 dmg is similar to G13 nirvana daggers but due the difference where dmg comes, deicides get out dps`d. If you just can afford and even if you cant, try to start working on G16 claws/fists as those alone are major leap in dmg. Friend got G16 fists, think they were maybe +3 when she pulled aggro off my R8+10 daggers at 4aps. Nowdays I got G16 daggers myself but her ability to pull aggro off even my R8 daggers kinda shocked me at such refines.

Jaabg - Sanctuary

My build - the rings and armour refine

My total hp is 6.6k. I can tank/solo all bosses up to 3-1, without barb buffs. I can tank most bh bosses, if the squad dd is good. Bosses have a tendecy to one shot me at times, due to low hp. Vana bosses are not an issue.

That is an aps tanking build, demon. My only competition is g15+10, r9 +10 or higher refined sins (they often come in dot to).

As people have pointed out, to tank as a bm, we have only two agro skills, and only one that is viable (the genie skill, alpha male), but it is better to get a higher grade weapon with better refines. If i +12 my claws, they will out dd most classes no questions asked.

There is no glory or fame in tanking. It means higher costs. If your defense is not up to scratch, best not to tank, because that means, boss will kill you and go back to other dd's which may result in squad wipes.

My bm is demon, so makes it easier for me.

thumbs

There is no point to tank build a BM because:

1) The person that gets aggro tanks and even DD BMs suck for aggro
2) They have no HP based dmg output skill
3) They don't come with BP or an HP buff

AoE vs aps sounds like a better debate.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Here is my goal.

453 str, 20% crit.

You wanted that compared to a Sin. Its weird but PWI didn't add the usual ~10% difference to the G16 daggers and claws. Netherworld Daggers have a base average damage of 942.5 while the claws have a base ave of 924, and then they refine the same. Not sure if this was a mistake or what.

So, an endgame sin will have about 500+ dex, an endgame bm will have around 400 str. That's about .67 weapon multipliers. An endgame sin will have about 38% crit and an endgame BM about 23%, so the sin has 15% more crit. That is literally 15% more damage. Comparing G16 though its about 220k for BMs vs 260k for sins, not huge. R9 is around 200k dps.

You asked str or vit. You showed me a build with 142 vit, I showed you a pure str build with 12 vit stones, giving me 15.1k hp unbuffed. If I restat to 142 vit I go up to 17.3k hp, a 14.5% gain, I lose 2% of my pdef, gain 10% mdef, lose 24% damage unsparked, and 10.5% damage sprked. I guess I'd consider my goals and where I was currently at. For farming/PvE 10k hp and reasonable defenses are plenty so I'd lean towards faster farming and more str. For Pk you want to balance killing power and survivability with your playstyle, so that a personal choice. For where you're at in the game, you either need refines or vit. I prefer hp/defenses from refines.