What's your opinion on this.

_blood_rain - Sanctuary

Xainou - Sanctuary wrote: »

R9 archers. Someone who gears up an archer to go the cheap route to 5.0 won't be R9.

A few things,

Archers do really close damage to BMs at 5.0, masteries don't account for as much as people think and Blazing helps archers out a lot. In no way is this a new discovery, but I find that it constantly has to be re-explained.

As stated before, it doesn't make sense that you complain that archers do "****" damage w/ fists and instead want them to go back and do DISMAL damage w/ their bow.

Also thought you should know, claw barbs are generally better DD's than claw Bms. The only reason BMs are preferred is because of their debuffs...it's not like a claw BM is more wanted because it gimps every other claw(insert class here)'s damage by comparison.

Why would an R9 archer go for 5.0? Again, for versatility. Not everyone just wants to go play fish. We like our archers, we like to BOA and STA and use our bow when we can, the 5.0 is something we use when appropriate to compete as best as we can DD-wise, because(and I'm saying this again) we are DD's.

Dragoneast - Sanctuary

Fate/Soul - Lost City wrote: »

Wow people actually offered some opinions, I didn't expect this to happen but anyways.

I never said that bloodpaint would be an addition to follow daggers being opened up to archers.

Let's put it like this. Of all farming instances, where do archers fit in nowadays? Regular Nv is all about Bm/Barb/Sin/Veno, i only add veno and barb because i see it on wc a few times but its mostly for their debuffs.

Caster Nv has all the casters obviously with the addition of bms for dragons as what i've seen on wc and maybe a seeker cause of their debuffs but i doubt they both get invited much.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL barbs in reg vana? no way unless they aps or R9, noone wants us, devour? Glacial Spike? phys atk buff? just get another hf or another 5 aps...
barbs r no wanted for vana unless OP or aps...

orangeladey

Eh, the only character I play is my Archer who is still under L70 in PvE. So from that limited viewpoint...

Early on my accuracy was absolutely horrible, as in maybe half of my attacks hit. Switching weapons was the only thing that kept me alive. Eventually I could keep things away long enough to not need to switch.

The REASON I did this at the time had nothing to do with APS. It was the annoying Penalties inherint in the weapons. I know the damage is supposed to halve when you are under the range minimum of a bow/slingshot/crossbow, but I still seem to miss more too.

Currently if I miss an attack with no Critical to make up for it, I'll probably be fine, just a little bruised. However if I miss TWO, then a melee monster will be on me, and it takes FIVE shots to kill it if I'm lucky(as in actually doing half damge instead of less) providing that none of those shots MISS! as well.

And yes, I've followed the recommended stat builds, sharded my gear and refined it a few level.


Still, I crunched numbers a while ago and found that damage a Fist could do per second was less than what by Ranged weapon would still manage at half damage.

uncleblademaster wrote: »

Daggers and Stealth doesn't sound right on an Archer. Just like bows don't sound like on an Assassin.



I think they should ban Sins from using Bows, and Archers from using Stealth OR Daggers.



One class shouldn't be able to use another classes primary weapon.

While I do Agree with what you are saying for actual game play, I have to disagree on the suitability of the weapons.



Forget Archers vs Assassin, IGNORE stats and gameplay.

Daggers would be a PERFECT weapon for an AERIAL species, i.e. winged elves. Both classes, Archer and Cleric, have skills that are more useful from a distance. Unfortunately, not all opponents stay in the distance. So when an enemy closes in on you what would you use?

In flight: Anything that would get in the way of your wings would be out (eliminates the **** n slash weps). Anything that is too heavy would be out (no hammers/maces/longswords).

What you want is a weapon that can make the enemy stop flying. Pole weapons would actually be ideal if you can hover like a hummingbird. Otherwise combat has you swooping past your opponents, a quick slash of a dagger to the wing or back and down they go and you either snipe them, or land and finish the job (and if the enemy crashed cause they couldn't fly, then all it should take is a knife to the throat.)

That may be how a flying species may survive close combat.

And since those are the methods of survival in their more native environment, the sky. That is what they will use on the ground as well.

---

As for my opinion on daggers for archers in gameplay? At this point I don't care, I doubt I'd use them personally so it wouldn't matter.


What bugs me for Archers are the penalties, and screwed up range.

Can anyone tell me the scale for size in this game? I mean I use knockback on a human sized opponent that should be 12 meters, right? And in 3, count them THREE strides, two of my attacks, the mob has made up that distance? What normal human has a 4 meter stride, that is over 13 feet!

Still an archer's maximum range being 25 meter??? 40 yards(37m) is a minimum range in many competitions.

The other penalties I mean are the Terrain based damage penalties. Why can't Winged Elves get a bonus when attacking from the air? To be fair, I'd wish the Tideborn to have an advantage in the water. We've only spent our whole lives living in our native environment, shouldn't we fight better from there? Guess not...



I know another post mentioned not bringing Real Life into this, and I think I broke that in trying to think Realisically. I don't think we need to make all classes balanced, all the classes need to be unbalanced equally!



But hey, even Hollywood thinks Archers should have Daggers...
... just look at Legolas' paired long daggers in Lord of the Rings and he can't even fly!

_Ghoul_ - Lost City

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

BM is totally support...if you're talking about mass PvP. In PvE anything that can take aggro and live is tank.

how in hell is that logic.

talking about this made me want to puke

since when was a DD class a boss killer

dd agro tanking barb and 99% of the comunity is fine with it


if you want to be as ddish as sin using bow make barb 100% able to hold agro and give barb there rightfull place back even tp the traditional vit barbs

meatballs will tank bosses again

_Ghoul_ - Lost City

_blood_rain - Sanctuary wrote: »

They were not intended to be DD's. They were better at DDing than a tank(barb), and better at tanking than a DD, but they were not specially designated for either task.

The DD BM became viable and even outstanding w/ gear options that made 4.0/5.0 w/ BM possible, and Cancel Cast(now not possible). Even today, at raw DD output w/ similar claw/fist weapon, Archers and Bms are too close to truly say that BMs are better(w/ said cancelcast removal), it's really just their debuff potential that sets them apart. /inb4noobsbringupmasteries

Even w/ their original support oriented purpose, people use them today as DD's because they have the potential + HF which makes them perfect slaves to their Assassin overlords. That was exactly my point that people's MAIN argument in this matter is that this one class should limit their options simply because it strays from their "original intention" and instead should just roll this other class best known for it's abilities in an area that also strays from it's own original intention. It's a completely stupid, hypocritical argument.

That said, the only reason ppl really use claws on an archer is because why not? 5.0 is cheap and adds to our ability to DD on bosses. I might be doing a delta, where people want my AOE's, but when those bosses come out, My DD power isn't completely gimped in comparison to the BMs. It's about versatility and utility. If anyone is really making an archer specifically w/ farming in mind, they are probably just pretty poor/casual.

hah in what world are you talking about did a bm tank pole at fb69.

on weaker bosses sure some barb would LET you steal agro bit axe bm stealing agro wtf you been smoking

i am talking when server was fresh here lost city mind you on 2008

bm was a wanabe tank and many chick played tank role then cos they did not wana be hairy barbs

Nowitsawn - Heavens Tear

_Ghoul_ - Lost City wrote: »

how in hell is that logic.

It's PWI logic.

Doesn't make sense, but it's how it is.

_Ghoul_ - Lost City

actually as someone said about magic classes tanking there own caster nv as non tank.

why not just take teh bosses hp down to 400k so anybody with or without good gear can solo bosses and make money

in this way sin wont become as popular farm mashines as everyone can solo any boss in the game

and u end up with a toon you actuallly love to play no need for tank no need for dd just play your toon us a god.


sure would get boring and sht but it would really limit Opness on damage ping pong

who is tank who make money and who is DD

cos barb NEED a real 100% agro skill and also some good 400% damage skill from base damage so they can play there toon as it was meant to be.

Quilue - Sanctuary

You seem very occupied with PvE for someone on a PvP server, maybe you don't know the other side of barb play.

Xinnz - Heavens Tear

Angel_Spawn - Sanctuary wrote: »

Everyone can use bows, it`s not CLASS RESTRICTED like some weapons are on the other hand: s.spheres, daggers,x-bows and slingshots, if you want to be like assassins and use daggers... MAKE ONE, I also made an archer on same account to share gear, would be stupid if both could use the same weapon, might as well give archers BP also.

earthguards cant use bows..

_Ghoul_ - Lost City

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

You seem very occupied with PvE for someone on a PvP server, maybe you don't know the other side of barb play.

wish still talk of MONEY farmed money unless ur a cash shopper

see this is also bias sin is OP cos of pk and pve king



now if money making was easy for just any kinda GEAR class and sht then we can then and only then talk of pvp

i think you know this i am sure you guys have pvp in ur server to


and sorry for breaking your dd comment but barb have issues to with the DD mechanism of this game

Xinnz - Heavens Tear

uncleblademaster wrote: »

Daggers and Stealth doesn't sound right on an Archer. Just like bows don't sound like on an Assassin.

I think they should ban Sins from using Bows, and Archers from using Stealth OR Daggers.

One class shouldn't be able to use another classes primary weapon.

then barbs and archers can be banned from using claws and fists, everyone who can use bows be banned for using bows for FF heads?

barbs has to axe an npc for ages to get full chi?

what about barbs? barb r9 poleaxe as primary weapon, but bms also have r8 poleaxe? who will get banned?

_Nerox_ - Dreamweaver

Would be best if all weapons was class restricted

Xinnz - Heavens Tear

_Nerox_ - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Would be best if all weapons was class restricted

but then bms would have heaps of weapons to itself, seekers cant use swords cos bms originally had swords first? and same as my last post, who will get poleaxe / axe? barb or bm?

_Nerox_ - Dreamweaver

Xinnz - Heavens Tear wrote: »

but then bms would have heaps of weapons to itself, seekers cant use swords cos bms originally had swords first? and same as my last post, who will get poleaxe / axe? barb or bm?

wasnt that how the game was supposed to be? Seekers and BM can share swords, same with poleaxe/axe BM and Barb only

basicly; if you dont have any skills for it, u cant use it.

_blood_rain - Sanctuary

_Nerox_ - Dreamweaver wrote: »

wasnt that how the game was supposed to be? Seekers and BM can share swords, same with poleaxe/axe BM and Barb only

basicly; if you dont have any skills for it, u cant use it.

So, sins can't use bows then? and I guess that means archers can use anything, because we have skills that aren't weapon specified.

Decus - Dreamweaver

_blood_rain - Sanctuary wrote: »

So, sins can't use bows then? and I guess that means archers can use anything, because we have skills that aren't weapon specified.

No you got it all wrong. If I stat some magic into my archer, I can use a pataka and cast wingspan and pledge. Clearly, the implication is that patakas are archer weapons.



In general terms: Seriously, anyone that brings in the argument that "archers are meant to use bows because that's what archers use" needs to go back and re-evaluate that statement. Not only is it circuitous, but what archer would sit and and fire at point blank range? That's ****ing stupid. If you want to restrict yourself, fine, but don't sit and argue that fists gimp bow damage or do "**** damage." FYI: BOWS DO ABYSMAL DAMAGE IN PVE SETTINGS FAVOURING 5.0

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear

Did you know that Assassins can almost permaspark with a bow? (Reference link)

Also, did you know the coolest Archer ever used two blades? (Reference link)

Regenbogen - Lost City

MageMERC - Harshlands wrote: »

How about doing whatever needs to be done to ranged weapons and skills so they actually stay as an archer?

aps+sparks is a broken thing that needs some kind of nerf b:bye

Xinnz - Heavens Tear

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Did you know that Assassins can almost permaspark with a bow? (Reference link)

that is epic, imagine that with -int s3 bow :P

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear

Xinnz - Heavens Tear wrote: »

that is epic, imagine that with -int s3 bow :P

I'm not sure what s3 means, but if you mean 3rd stage Nirvana bows, then yes, an Assassin can outdamage an Archer if both are using bows against a boss (assuming a lot of White Teas).

anwynd

if archers could use daggers id play my archer again just for roleplaying reasons lol

Niteshadows - Harshlands

No, main reason being you guys already get to use slingshots, bows, and crossbows. What more do you need?

_blood_rain - Sanctuary

Niteshadows - Harshlands wrote: »

No, main reason being you guys already get to use slingshots, bows, and crossbows. What more do you need?

They are all variations of one general weapon, and this coming from a BM.....

Fate/Soul - Lost City

Too many people are angry that it would make sense for archers to use daggers.

I mean we have the requirements to weild them, aside from the fact that it says "assassin" on them b:embarrass

I just honestly hate the fact that people are saying to make an assassin or a bm to get into farming instances, that just completely **** b:embarrass

_blood_rain - Sanctuary

Fate/Soul - Lost City wrote: »

Too many people are angry that it would make sense for archers to use daggers.

I mean we have the requirements to weild them, aside from the fact that it says "assassin" on them b:embarrass

I just honestly hate the fact that people are saying to make an assassin or a bm to get into farming instances, that just completely **** b:embarrass

"****" is exactly how the game works these days. We have a go to/end all PvE/open world PvP class, and if you dare to play anything else and dare to raise the issue of how f'd up that is, everyone hisses "JOOOIIIIN UUUSSSS" as if its a real solution. We have entire squads being filled w/ only 2/3 classes and people stealthing through all game content to turn a profit.

We have support that can DD better than actual DDs, and DDs that can tank better than tanks, and in PvP nothing matters if you arent R9.

Best of all, everything you need to be an ULTIMATE SUPER PWNER is available from the cash shop

**** is the PWI philosophy.

TCHP - Lost City

I tough they already had one, it's called a sin....

_blood_rain - Sanctuary

TCHP - Lost City wrote: »

I tough they already had one, it's called a sin....

sin=archer?

TCHP - Lost City

_blood_rain - Sanctuary wrote: »

sin=archer?

If you never saw a sin trow arrows, it's not my problem ...

_blood_rain - Sanctuary

TCHP - Lost City wrote: »

If you never saw a sin trow arrows, it's not my problem ...

I don't think I've ever seen anything "trow" anything else.

Ajaany - Raging Tide

barbarian = axes/hammers/pole(claws ofc)

Bm = axes/hammers/pole(wish no claws)

Assassin = daggers (bow but meh)

Psy - soulsphere

Veno = Pataka/glaive/wand/m.sword

Cleric = pataka/glaive/wand/m.sword

Wizz = magic sword/wand/pataka/glaive

Archer = bow/claws




see how only tides have 1 wepon? yes nerf aps but trow the ** claws on barbs bm
archers (this game was more fun when no r8 and TT gear rulled)

still is *fun* at some point but stop QQing,an archer asking for daggers? PLS thats just **** ... u got stealth ffs ... ever seen an archer assassin? archers= old fashioned snipers (stealth wasnt getting invisible,was camuflouge wich isnt same as invisible)but anyway

** NO TO DAGGS ON ARCHERS




PS: srry if i forgot any wepons or w/e