Is Blade or Pole any good for BM?

Empu - Sanctuary

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I will always find is strange when people support the "Be special, do what you want!" but when people want to do what they want, which means kicking the "Special" kids cause they slow down the team, it's being a meany. If the special kid is entitled, isn't everyone else?

This kind of attitude is exactly what created the absurdity of a "normal" and a "caster" version of the same instance, which is the most racist and ridiculous thing I've ever seen in an MMO. There got to be a middle way between rolling a red carpet for pataka barbs and run only with r9/G16 +10~12 "pure" builds, don't you think ?

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The pvp/tw axe-only ones also aren't all that good either, cause their crit sux and earn an impressive 3k hp outta a pool of 20k+ (...), and lose 8 crit and a ton of accuracy. Given crit is what makes them work DD wise in the first place...kiiinda useless in BH unless theyre AoE pulling (which I do fine) or HFing the boss (which I also do, just fine). But BH is BH, I wouldn't care on that - it's a quick jaunt to a boss and "thanks, bye!". Sure, I'd take a real DD over that VitAxe BM any day though. Cause they ain't tankin a boss with that build.

Exactly, not saying you got to squad regularly with ppl you don't like the "playstyle" or "build" off. Can just finish that 10~15min run even if they are not optimal build (as long as they don't really suck at everything they do ofc). For some reason refusing a bm with, let's say, a +10 G16 sword (sounds realistic for someone who has a seeker) is seen as more normal then kicking a bm with +2/3 deicides, while both have that morai quest poleaxe to cast hf...

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

But like, early stages, when you're spending 30-60 minutes in an instance? Come on, don't add an extra 10+ minutes because you want to be "special".

I don't agree at all on that. The best DD in low instances is the alt with more coins/mirages then the rest. My veno out-DD wizards/psychics while being a LA build. Not because I'm so amazing or that LA veno is op, but simply cause I got higher quality weapon then most.

In bh51 I tanked pretty much all the time with my bm, and I was using that mold lvl61 sword. Has nothing to do with the weapon type, but I had 2 high grade garnets in it and +3'ed it. And yeah, I had same kind off lvl60 mold fists. I never did any math on it, but the difference between those was not enough for me to actually notice it. Maybe if I had bloodmoon's, tm cape and pangu tome at that time it would have been different...

At low lvls, it's the ppl that don't know what to do that make runs longer if you ask me. Most just run with whatever they find cheap anyway.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

This kind of attitude is exactly what created the absurdity of a "normal" and a "caster" version of the same instance, which is the most racist and ridiculous thing I've ever seen in an MMO. There got to be a middle way between rolling a red carpet for pataka barbs and run only with r9/G16 +10~12 "pure" builds, don't you think ?

Oh totally, I mean hell I still run mixed normal nirvvy with friends/fac mates who need cannies and raps, even though I can duo/trio the place in 6-10 minutes (Solo takes too long...). I just view Sword / Pole BMs, who wanna use the swords and poles constantly instead of in the necessary situations, as Pataka Barbs.

Not everyone has 5aps overnight, not everyone has +12R9 overnight, but you can still play well with the lesser gear. Thats my thing. On the related note, any Vit-Axe BM who says they have a right to farming and are "good" at it is insane. Go solo FB99 or sell slower WGTMs ya weirdos.

Now onto the Normal vs Caster version of Nirvana, thats due to 5APS. Now take on the new BHs, I'll take casters every every every time instead of a gaggle of sins cause the bosses die faster. What they need to do is create more bosses that are anti-aps. Hell, do a third Nirvana like that, I'll have a damn blast.

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

Exactly, not saying you got to squad regularly with ppl you don't like the "playstyle" or "build" off. Can just finish that 10~15min run even if they are not optimal build (as long as they don't really suck at everything they do ofc). For some reason refusing a bm with, let's say, a +10 G16 sword (sounds realistic for someone who has a seeker) is seen as more normal then kicking a bm with +2/3 deicides, while both have that morai quest poleaxe to cast hf...

Whats sad is, that +2/+3 Deicide BM builds chi faster, and can HF more due to the chi build. Thereby, contributing better to the squad. I doubt, seriously doubt that +10 G16 (can't use those prior to 100, but whatever) sword compensates for the lack of being able to HF every time HF refreshes.

If you've made it past your 90's and you're STILL using swords or poles as your main weapon, you've missed the point. Go find another squad of special kids who also eat paste to play with. It's just rude to the squad to not be putting as much effort in as the others are.

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

I don't agree at all on that. The best DD in low instances is the alt with more coins/mirages then the rest. My veno out-DD wizards/psychics while being a LA build. Not because I'm so amazing or that LA veno is op, but simply cause I got higher quality weapon then most.

In bh51 I tanked pretty much all the time with my bm, and I was using that mold lvl61 sword. Has nothing to do with the weapon type, but I had 2 high grade garnets in it and +3'ed it. And yeah, I had same kind off lvl60 mold fists. I never did any math on it, but the difference between those was not enough for me to actually notice it. Maybe if I had bloodmoon's, tm cape and pangu tome at that time it would have been different...

At low lvls, it's the ppl that don't know what to do that make runs longer if you ask me. Most just run with whatever they find cheap anyway.

And it wont be...you're talking level 60s - which thanks to Mr's Jones and his blessing, you can just faceroll your keyboard through everything and be fine. TBH, none of that matters at all until you hit about 80. Given it takes about a week to hit 80 nowadays (sigh...), but a month or two if you move at an average pace to hit 100, I'd call 80's as "Earlier". I shoulda been more specific.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

First, the reason the 'special kids' that are sword path, pure dex, pure 1 weapon, trying to use their weapons in a unique but overall ineffective way, or just plain ridiculous players are landing in our random squads is because they don't even have friends or factionmates that will run with them. Why should they become a burden to strangers?

As an MMORPG other players expect certain things from us and when people fall short of that getting kicked is the simplest way of sharing an evaluation of their performance. Free love and group-hugs are great, but doesn't help people improve. Sometimes, kicking a bad bm is the best thing you can do for them because they might go "Oh! Guess I need to do something different" and improve on what they've done. You have a duty to your squad, otherwise you should be playing games solo. If you can't fulfill that duty then you don't deserve that squad.

On the other hand, the occasional idiot does spice things up and test our own abilities, which can be fun.

I gotta agree with Maelael here. Its the squad creators prerogative who they want in their squad. People have rights to their own builds and playstyles, but others have the rights to judge them too. Saying they shouldn't criticize others for being different is fascist in its own way.

Empu - Sanctuary

@Maelael : Seems our opinions don't differ that much, even though your posts make you sound as one off those "r9 +10 or gtfo" a-holes from how I read them. I still regret that all classes were mold to 1 build, then all instances were mold to 1 squad setup, now all squads are mold into 1 minimal gear quality. I see this as partly pwi/e's fault and partly the communities fault that has become way to obsessed with perfection to waste their free-time in an optimal way b:surrender

If you look a bit back, you'll see that I was indeed talking about below 80s. Like I stated, I think 80~90 is the gap where the differences are created. The reason I find it a good thing that bms actually toy around with weapon paths before that, is so that they actually know those situations where the situational weapons like pole/sword ARE usefull. This would avoid those bms that do really nothing else but spark > ce/siphon > hf > back to fists > aps, wether it's bh, nirvana or delta. It should also avoid these threads.

As for the hf thing, you can cast it every 30 sec even when wacking with a sword. Personally, I see the main duties of a bm as buff, stun, hf/gs and any form of support (like pushbacks or demon bell). That is why I don't have that much trouble with "special builds" in something like bh. I got a sin, so know the whole dps thing is a laugh. I got a wiz, so know bms aren't such great aoe DD wether it's with axes or another weap.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

See above!

Naw, I'm a play well or GTFO. There are two BMs on my top 10 list that I have massive respect for playwise that don't have +10 anything. There's actually a veno that is level 95 that outplays many, many R9 venos that I'd take anywhere cause shes got it amped, ironwooded, purged instantly, and throws every skill in her arsenal she can fit inbetween constantly.

I agree, I'd like the BMs to have more "Styles" and "molds" that work as efficient, or at least near, like say how you can spec out Seekers differently, Venos differently, Barbs differently, etc. There are some variance (Sage vs Demon mostly), but the balance of butt kicking is so off, it's just not sensible to break the mold.

But at the same time, cause BMs can get complex, and theres so many different ways to do things depending on the situation, I'd say with the cookie cutter build you should be busy enough and enjoying yourself. Someone said they play their barb because its more complex than their BM - I say they are playing their BM wrong.

And yea, I was talking more post 80. And yes, there are situations that pole and sword are needed, but it's super rare, and in even in some of those cases there are other options that work just as good.

Towards the sword thing - you really can't over the long run without lots of aps gear and without chi pots or genie - I've tried and I've seen others try as well. Plus, you're missing the 3spark inbetween. It's just not efficient or as much damage overall.

You are pretty close, we aren't the highest DDs single target or AoE wise, unless we zerk a lot in AoE. But, we are "great" DDs, I don't agree with you book and in the field wise with BMs not being "great". Of course a similar built wizard is gonna do more damage - thats what the class is intended to do. But usually, if the wizard behaves, or I zerk crit enough, I can control the crowd and keep aggro. I wish I could say the same for Barbs...

Another example I can give is Trial 5 boss. One or two good BMs can just AOE everything to crowd control, all the while amping the whole crowd/boss to support, so none of the mobs touch the clerics/etc...and live through it. No other class can do that.

Really, our support skills is what brings us up as "Needed" in terms of efficiency. HFing vs not HFing a boss (Or GS in Nirvana cases) is a giant difference in terms of squad. AoE stun in places like RB cannot be done consistently by other classes. Yadda yadda, radda radda.

Do a duo or trio without a good BM in Nirvana that has similar gear, or do a RB without a good BM. You should notice a large difference, and if you don't - I question how good the BM is.

Empu - Sanctuary

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You are pretty close, we aren't the highest DDs single target or AoE wise, unless we zerk a lot in AoE. But, we are "great" DDs, I don't agree with you book and in the field wise with BMs not being "great". Of course a similar built wizard is gonna do more damage - thats what the class is intended to do. But usually, if the wizard behaves, or I zerk crit enough, I can control the crowd and keep aggro. I wish I could say the same for Barbs...

I put bms in the "support" category, and think that is where they are great like you mentioned a bit below quoted passage. Maybe you got me wrong cause it was a bit of a small personal rant aimed towards those bms that consider themselves some sort of human fish psy/sin mix. Some seem to have the same syndrome as mystics and sins in wanting to be "the best" at everything and anything.

I don't really see the problems you have with barbs when it comes to crowd control though. Except places like metal with the annoying seal, I don't have to much problems with aggro on crowds. A usual sunder + arma => run back and stomp of the king works pretty good and I'm not even demon for the crit. Especially with sov/bramble. Ofc, some OP r9/G16 caster will get aggro but I just count that if they want it, they can handle it. In those cases, or with a seeker that can tank, I tend to just get aggro quickly with sunder and save arma for in zhen with hf/debuffs. But well, that's off-topic.

If I look at my own bm, I think I use my hammers about 65~70% of the time and fists about 20%, rest is mainly poleweap and in some rare occasions sword or bow. I don't know if it's because I'm old-school or because my gear favors that more, or simply because I find "aps'ing" to be dissapointing in damage and bp compared to my sin. On most bosses/squads, I rather take a pure supportive role (GS + HF) then a DD role (spark + HF). Could be another reason why I don't give much attention to other bms fists. After all, who doesn't have cloud eruption or chi siphon these days ? b:laugh

Maelael - Heavens Tear

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

I put bms in the "support" category, and think that is where they are great like you mentioned a bit below quoted passage. Maybe you got me wrong cause it was a bit of a small personal rant aimed towards those bms that consider themselves some sort of human fish psy/sin mix. Some seem to have the same syndrome as mystics and sins in wanting to be "the best" at everything and anything.

BMs are totally support. When you play the support role efficiently and safely, you make the group a ton better. When you play like you're a damn sin, or a psy, you suck ***. Use your CCs and Amps - its best for the party. It's like Clerics who nuke over healing in situations they should be healing. No bueno.

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

I don't really see the problems you have with barbs when it comes to crowd control though. Except places like metal with the annoying seal, I don't have to much problems with aggro on crowds. A usual sunder + arma => run back and stomp of the king works pretty good and I'm not even demon for the crit. Especially with sov/bramble. Ofc, some OP r9/G16 caster will get aggro but I just count that if they want it, they can handle it. In those cases, or with a seeker that can tank, I tend to just get aggro quickly with sunder and save arma for in zhen with hf/debuffs. But well, that's off-topic.

Naw its on topic, were talking aggro control here. Even with demon sunder -> arma on HF/Subsea/Mire by an R9 Barb who zerk crits, I get the damn aggro back still (Its not instant in that case, takes a few rounds). I'm still fighting aggro back and forth with R9 +12 DoT wizzies (If they had GoF, forget it).

With normal-ish barbs, in cases where they don't get that ultimate combo off, they get aggro for about 2 seconds maybe twice in a 60 second+ fight off me in RB. Especially if I'm skipping stun and going direct for damage constantly with the three mains and cyclone heel or fan inbetween. Barbs just don't have the aggro anymore. It's neat having a Barb pull and I feel lazy as hell letting them pull, but I've got aggro 99.9% of the time unless its a top top DD Barb or an OP Wiz or Psy (or lucky break fires on a mystic...ya ****).

Hell I had a BM keep getting aggro over my barb last night in lunar (although I only have +10 GXs and 300 str...) with his N3s, but unfortunately I was having a hard time getting the timing with with him on HF Arma. I'd gank it back sometimes, especially if I got some good armas in, but still...really hard to keep up. Wizzie kept taking aggro on a few mobs she'd crit on repeatedly too.

TBH, if you time your skills well and the mobs are well placed, BMs are excellent at group aggro control, and way better than barbs. Best we've got for now, and the whole reason I originally quit my barb (Single target and group aggro wasn't happening anymore as a vit barb).

Wizzies and Psys just need to hold back a bit at times, or prep to tank lol.

There is two barbs outta the 50+ Ive grouped with that can fight me decent for aggro in RB. But by decent, I mean like 5-10 seconds twoish times a pull they have aggro. Theyre both high/full str barbs. Of note, APS barbs in RB suck if you have a good BM there. Might as well have the BM pull too if they are similarly geared - nearly the same or more HP and we have marrows and better run skills. **** a sin pulls those better at times (although can't do the aoe aggro prior to bringing them in well).

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

If I look at my own bm, I think I use my hammers about 65~70% of the time and fists about 20%, rest is mainly poleweap and in some rare occasions sword or bow. I don't know if it's because I'm old-school or because my gear favors that more, or simply because I find "aps'ing" to be dissapointing in damage and bp compared to my sin. On most bosses/squads, I rather take a pure supportive role (GS + HF) then a DD role (spark + HF). Could be another reason why I don't give much attention to other bms fists. After all, who doesn't have cloud eruption or chi siphon these days ? b:laugh

(kinda depends what level your BM is for all of that?)

Well ideally you should be 3sparking and HFing at the same time with CE/CS, and utilizing 3 spark aps to build chi and do whatever. The other weapons will not outdamage 4/5aps fists, and fists build chi faster. The damage is not meant to be as much as sins either - faster base, lesser damage.

With that, theres a reason I built my APS gear the way I did, I want to keep up with sins as much as possible. Vs a similar geared Sin - they've got single target aggro hands down, but it's supposed to be that way. But like I said last post, run some stuff without a good BM, and then with a good BM. Huge difference.

And I'm old school too with my BM, started in 2009, Pure axe BM with cyclone leveled so I could hit faster with my axes. But I knew a good thing when I saw it and restatted for Fist/Axe when I came back.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

I put bms in the "support" category, and think that is where they are great like you mentioned a bit below quoted passage. Maybe you got me wrong cause it was a bit of a small personal rant aimed towards those bms that consider themselves some sort of human fish psy/sin mix. Some seem to have the same syndrome as mystics and sins in wanting to be "the best" at everything and anything.

I don't really see the problems you have with barbs when it comes to crowd control though. Except places like metal with the annoying seal, I don't have to much problems with aggro on crowds. A usual sunder + arma => run back and stomp of the king works pretty good and I'm not even demon for the crit. Especially with sov/bramble. Ofc, some OP r9/G16 caster will get aggro but I just count that if they want it, they can handle it. In those cases, or with a seeker that can tank, I tend to just get aggro quickly with sunder and save arma for in zhen with hf/debuffs. But well, that's off-topic.

If I look at my own bm, I think I use my hammers about 65~70% of the time and fists about 20%, rest is mainly poleweap and in some rare occasions sword or bow. I don't know if it's because I'm old-school or because my gear favors that more, or simply because I find "aps'ing" to be dissapointing in damage and bp compared to my sin. On most bosses/squads, I rather take a pure supportive role (GS + HF) then a DD role (spark + HF). Could be another reason why I don't give much attention to other bms fists. After all, who doesn't have cloud eruption or chi siphon these days ? b:laugh

G16 fist claws are not uncommon, even though its been only a few months they've been out, and they out dd 4 aps r9 sins. Compare a 400 str bm to a 500 dex sin, the claws have a a higher base damage and more attack levels, the sin has GoF and ~15% higher crit, and the BM has 25% more aps. A G16 claw bm should out dd an R9 sin or at least be about equal, both being around 200k dps. But a G16 sin or R9t2/3 would out dd them.

It may not be the best 1v1 dd but its still very sexy. It would almost double the dps of your 2.86 sage build, actually, which you compared as favorable but that would make R9 or less sins a 'support class' due to low dps b:chuckle.

Of course, that doesn't excuse him from HFing for 5 people just to amp his own. I usually have a pdef debuffer in squad and don't need to burn 4 sparks on HF and GS. I usually alternate HF and GS and spark on both of them.

In places like Delta I can usually keep aggro off most people, unless I'm doing the pulling and they start attacking during the pull before I start attacking. Chasing mobs is a huge dps loss. The conundrum I get in is if someone starts to steal aggro. I have 3 options:
~Stun/freeze the mobs.
~Go for mob kills and then they might get aggro but only on a few surviving mobs.
~or aoe like mad, using tm/frenzy, and try to hold aggro.

If I try to stun and dps I will lose aggro because of the time spent stunning, but the mobs may never reach the person. Then again, they may reach the aggro thief and my stun will be in cooldown and they'll die. So should I try to out dps them? There are a few tricks, like using TM when its a caster stealing aggro because it slows the mobs (keeping them near you) and its physical so it amps your dd but not theirs. Barraging Archer's are easy to keep aggro from. Just pull the mobs to right next to them and you hit their <5m range 50% damage reduction.

This is where perving on your squad mates and knowing a bit about dps comes in handy, to help make these decisions. Figure out their dd potential, then watch how they actually play and you can normally guess how much aggro they are generating and which option you should chose. I've had deltas where I did 5 waves doing nothing more than stunning at spawnpoint, never bringing back to bb, and just locking mobs up there while r9s had the aggro and stayed range but the mobs never reached them and I rarely dd. I think the "tanking" archer had 4 durability los to to his plate after 3 stages.

I BMs because we really do have multiple play options. We bring bell squad buff, demon bell for support, Buddha's Guard, HF, GS, MSS, have magic damage, we can tank, we can aoe stun, we can aoe freeze, knockbacks, range, fissure is a mean slow, we can aoe better than most and only slightly less than the best, we can 1v1 better than most and only slightly worse than the best.

^^That^^ is why I really don't understand why people consider 3str/2dex claw/axe BMs to be so cookie cutter. Versatility is all in the 50+ skills we have and how well we use them. The same 3/2 claw/axe build played by two different players will be very different and one can be great and one can be horrible.

Empu - Sanctuary

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

(kinda depends what level your BM is for all of that?)

Well ideally you should be 3sparking and HFing at the same time with CE/CS, and utilizing 3 spark aps to build chi and do whatever. The other weapons will not outdamage 4/5aps fists, and fists build chi faster. The damage is not meant to be as much as sins either - faster base, lesser damage.

With that, theres a reason I built my APS gear the way I did, I want to keep up with sins as much as possible. Vs a similar geared Sin - they've got single target aggro hands down, but it's supposed to be that way. But like I said last post, run some stuff without a good BM, and then with a good BM. Huge difference.

And I'm old school too with my BM, started in 2009, Pure axe BM with cyclone leveled so I could hit faster with my axes. But I knew a good thing when I saw it and restatted for Fist/Axe when I came back.

I had my bm a long time as an alt, tried out fists when that was made fun off. Then it became popular, so I went more for swords/poles. Just checking all weapons out till I hit 80s, where fists became more usefull and I had some good axes I kept from barb, which was my 1st and main character before the periode where they became totally obsolete for a few months. Lost bm at sight a bit when lvling my sin in that dark periodes for barbs. With all the hype over aps barbs, I decided to try it. But restatted back after a few months cause it was not my thing and lvled the last bit on my bm to not make it a total waste lol

So I got a lvl100 bm with +11 G15 hammers (SS +vit +hp, with accuracy gem and no intention to upgrade them to testicles on a stick) an +11 G15 fists (double -int and +3% crit). I use gold fcc pole cause it looks pro next to the previous 2 (yeah, that matters to me) untill I maybe get a 1st or 2nd cast nirvana. For sword, I just use the 95 morai one, it's mainly for mss and pushback from time to time. I got 5 part G15 nirvana (6 part, but on bm I use tm lunar cape). I don't really plan on upgrading fists cause the double -int makes my bm 4/5 aps depending on ornies with my barbs armor that gives me about 12k hp and about 6k mag def even when not wearing my mag def ornies cause aps matters (armor is sapphire sharded, and it rocks on barb/seeker).

Even with sage bp from my own sin, the bloodsuck is really ridiculous on bosses. I love it for pulls, on aoe it heals a lot. But on lvl? bosses, I always feel like it's more my 3 spark that gives hp back then the bloodsuck.

And I agree, rational explaining has it's limits. Who, what, where interferes a lot. I see many things that don't match with logic or math displayed on the forums here (even when I agree on what's calculated).

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

G16 fist claws are not uncommon, even though its been only a few months they've been out, and they out dd 4 aps r9 sins. Compare a 400 str bm to a 500 dex sin, the claws have a a higher base damage and more attack levels, the sin has GoF and ~15% higher crit, and the BM has 25% more aps. A G16 claw bm should out dd an R9 sin or at least be about equal, both being around 200k dps. But a G16 sin or R9t2/3 would out dd them.

It may not be the best 1v1 dd but its still very sexy. It would almost double the dps of your 2.86 sage build, actually, which you compared as favorable but that would make R9 or less sins a 'support class' due to low dps b:chuckle.

From what I see on bosses that allow a pretty accurate observation (99key boss or ape in 2-x), G16 +10 fists seem to be somewhat between G13 +10 and average G15 +10 (SS, -0.05int and random) daggers. I'm pretty hesitant when it comes to G16 sins and bms, because from my experience, at least 75% of them are idiots with 5k'ish hp for the sins and 6k'ish hp for the bms.

Since you like to know, yes I quite often change my style to support on sin. For me, after having 2 good DD a 3rd won't matter much so I to more to casting subsea for the other 2. But well, I remember you telling how my bm is supposed to be close to my sin in dps too, but there is an obvious reason I prefer to do/solo TT on my sin and not on my bm b:laugh Heck, I helped a veno friend on her last lvl till 99 on bm (to not reduce exp to much) thinking it wouldn't be that much longer especially with sage amp. Well, that wasn't the case b:surrender

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

^^That^^ is why I really don't understand why people consider 3str/2dex claw/axe BMs to be so cookie cutter. Versatility is all in the 50+ skills we have and how well we use them.

From that point of view, 3str/2dex is the most versatile build because it's the only one allowing acces to all skills with up to date weapon. I noticed, however, that most follow that build not for all weapons, not even for axes+fists, but because it's "the best dps build with fists". Even the same build has more explanaitions behind it.

Jaabg - Sanctuary

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

I put bms in the "support" category, and think that is where they are great like you mentioned a bit below quoted passage.

My point touches on all those 2~3 aspects. Sadly i got my g16 pretty early one, and thanks to a friend, i made it +10. I have rued that day ever since. I did not know how strong the fists were, unlike Sakubatou, who did research on them. I just went, g15, now g16, let's farm warsong. Coming back, when i spark with those fists, i am tanking. Normally it would be fine for most bm, but my bm is not refined and is walking with a +10 weapon, i can tank most bosses only by keeping sparked. I do hf when the genie allows, but can not hf outside that. If i do, i will die. Every time before we begin a boss, i ask who is tanking, if someone says they, i control my dd, do hf, gs, cyclone heel and have fun. If i still take agro with cyclone heel, there is no alternative but for me to spark.

Today in vana, a friend asked me to go with her. There were 3 sins, a bm, and her on veno. I asked who was tanking, one of the sins said he was. He had +11 r8 daggers, but his hp was 5.3k unbuffed. We start the run. First boss dies, i spark, gs, while the other bm does spark hf (he was sage, awesome to see a white spark in all the red). Next boss is purely a spark fest with gs. I gs first, and i had agro. I kept agro. Next boss, same thing, as soon as i touch the boss, agro seems to shift to me. We reached the chicken boss, i asked again, anyone tanking, sin said he would. On that boss, all the sins died, as the tanking sin died. I killed the boss with the other bm. Ideally i would have liked him to use mss, but ah well, one can wish. Next run, i say from the start i will tank. Run goes smoothly, except for the fact, that none of the sins would rib strike the boss. Even after i asked them 3~5 times at each boss. At the snake boss, someone does an aoe. Normally i can live through it, but boss was not ribbed, and i was at 2k hp, boss hit me, aoe did it's magic. Within 2 seconds, everyone else dies with me.

To test this annoyance, i took of my jones blessing next boss, agro shifted to one of the sins, boss was immediately rib striked, and the sins hp was quite low, i put the blessing back on and got agro back.

In the whole above episode, if i am incapable of hfing, due to genie, that does not mean that sins should only spark and dd, when they are not tanking. They can atleast rib strike, and do sub sea, but that did not happen. Our gs, hf combo worked fine, but the sins did not help.

I know for a fact, demon/sage, g13+10 can not take agro from me. R9+10 can, i haven't played with lower. R9 sins tend to come in +10 or higher, never lower, odd thing that one. G15 zerk int, +9 i can out dd most of the time, +10 is a ping pong game with them winning. +8 or lower is me tanking. Now i know that r8+11 has less dd(or that specific sin). Though i am not sure about that. I never saw any of the sins in the run use powerdash, wolfemblem. I may have a noob alt sin, but i buff it up when fighting bosses.

It may be selfish of me not to hf when genie is in cool down, the alternative is to see the sins dieing in rotation until all 3 are dead. The g16 has altered the game a bit in terms that sins can be out dded by bm, so sins have to time their sub sea with hf, gs, and not just rely on spark. There are 2~4 sins usually in a squad, i still fail to see why sins don't do it, but expect bms to do it. I wouldn't expect the tank to do it, but the non tanking sin/s can always do it.

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

With normal-ish barbs, in cases where they don't get that ultimate combo off, they get aggro for about 2 seconds maybe twice in a 60 second+ fight off me in RB. Especially if I'm skipping stun and going direct for damage constantly with the three mains and cyclone heel or fan inbetween. Barbs just don't have the aggro anymore. It's neat having a Barb pull and I feel lazy as hell letting them pull, but I've got aggro 99.9% of the time unless its a top top DD Barb or an OP Wiz or Psy (or lucky break fires on a mystic...ya ****).

I thought i was the only crazy one that i stole agro with my tt99 +3 axes or dragon hunt +5. Against r9, i can never take agro. More often than not, in delta, lunar, warsong i do end up with agro on mobs. I am in a constant aoe. Especially in lunar, i have to time my stuns when my hp is high, because i am using the bp returns and bb heals to heal up from all the mobs. I often exclaim in squad, why do i have agro in squad, while there are better refined people there.

Though there have been amazing players i have been with. There was one barb, who showed me by example why barbs are taken to delta. The whole squad timed the hf, gs, sub sea, amp (we are awesome like that) and he would arma. Most mobs die at that point, and i would be complaining, where do i get chi from now b:angry? killed all my chi friends. Most barbs i ran with before, simply ran in, agroed mobs, came back, and i ended up with agro quickly. I would use somewhere from 100~150 mp pots. With that barb i used about 40 for a full delta.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

G16 fist claws are not uncommon, even though its been only a few months they've been out, and they out dd 4 aps r9 sins. Compare a 400 str bm to a 500 dex sin, the claws have a a higher base damage and more attack levels, the sin has GoF and ~15% higher crit, and the BM has 25% more aps. A G16 claw bm should out dd an R9 sin or at least be about equal, both being around 200k dps. But a G16 sin or R9t2/3 would out dd them.

This is where perving on your squad mates and knowing a bit about dps comes in handy, to help make these decisions. Figure out their dd potential, then watch how they actually play and you can normally guess how much aggro they are generating and which option you should chose.

As pointed above, my g16 claws out dd most people, and i don't like it. It is a tag game with my friend who has g16 fists, +10, garnet gem, fists mastery. I have a ruby incomparable shard, lvl 10 fist mastery. Both of us are 5 aps. But if i hit the boss first, i usually keep agro, with maybe a switch near the middle or the end. G16 claws seem to out dd lots of things, i would hate to +12 them, without refining my armour to +10. It would mean death to me.

When i did not have g16 claws, i used to perve on everyone gear, especially in vana. That showed me who would get agro if "main tank" dies. Often times that meant, i would use mss over gs on the bird boss, because some one who is not meant to be tanking had agro and they needed every bit of damage reduction possible to keep alive, so main tank can get back and take agro. Or if the boss is close to dying, and gs just came out of cool down, i would gs, just to make sure boss dies fast. Sometimes if i am the only bm, and i see that the sins have good dd. I will refrain from sparking, and use a gs, hf combo with my mire. Bosses die in that one spark. If i use spark hf, sometimes bosses live until the second spark, so very useful to look at other people gear. There is hardly ever a boss in warsong that i have time to spark on, they usually die very quickly, especially the earth boss. Sad thing is, most bms as you said, are cookie cutter build, but they don't define their shape. BM's have the most skills in game for any class right now, and we usually use most of them, i know a vast majority of them do not.

On a totally different note, if bb is up, and i use mss, does the tank receive less damage due to mss being active, or mss does not stack with bb? The buff icons are different, i thought it would, and most people don't remember the damage numbers, thought i would ask.

Empu - Sanctuary

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

It may be selfish of me not to hf when genie is in cool down, the alternative is to see the sins dieing in rotation until all 3 are dead. The g16 has altered the game a bit in terms that sins can be out dded by bm, so sins have to time their sub sea with hf, gs, and not just rely on spark. There are 2~4 sins usually in a squad, i still fail to see why sins don't do it, but expect bms to do it. I wouldn't expect the tank to do it, but the non tanking sin/s can always do it.

Bms have been in the role of supporting from start of game, sins have been indoctrinated by spark/aps/dps from the days of their appearance in game. For me it's as simple as that. Most sins never bothered to even foresee the eventuallity of having several higher DD in squad giving them rationally a support role. For me, once you got 2 great DD or 3 good DD, there is more gain in adding support then more DD (this is why I consider those all 5 aps +10 nirvanas totally ridiculous).

I find your vana stories a bit strange though. Honestly, nirvana is a bad place to compare aggro as most bosses reset aggro from time to time (actually all but the 99key boss, if I'm not mistaken). Especially noticable on chicken and 2nd boss. But from what you said, go refine that armor !

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

I thought i was the only crazy one that i stole agro with my tt99 +3 axes or dragon hunt +5. Against r9, i can never take agro. More often than not, in delta, lunar, warsong i do end up with agro on mobs. I am in a constant aoe. Especially in lunar, i have to time my stuns when my hp is high, because i am using the bp returns and bb heals to heal up from all the mobs. I often exclaim in squad, why do i have agro in squad, while there are better refined people there.

I regularly dual my wiz (in DB) with my barb in delta. I keep mobs off my wiz besides some rare exceptions. I really don't see how barbs can loose aggro so easily except for metal where the sealing avoids building decent aggro. Against Maelael I can see, r9 +10~12 I believe, but agains TT99 +3 b:surprised

Just an indication, my wiz discoball does about double the damage per tick as my bms normal fissure with the hammers stated above. My wiz is channel build and weap is G15 +7 with demon db.

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

On a totally different note, if bb is up, and i use mss, does the tank receive less damage due to mss being active, or mss does not stack with bb? The buff icons are different, i thought it would, and most people don't remember the damage numbers, thought i would ask.

BB is a bless buff for the squad, mss is a debuff on the boss. So yeah they stack. Mss adds, not sure about the names anymore, muddle and fright to the boss. So it won't stack with those same kind off statusses, mainly barb frighten (fright), sage roar (muddle), spidervine (both), pet frighten and muddle/frighten proc's that are pretty rare.

Jaabg - Sanctuary

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

But from what you said, go refine that armor !

I have gathere 7 demon/sage card, was thinking another 5~10 more, and refine most gear to +7, and see what i have left over, but that is wishful thinking, not much time to play or do weekly events

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

I regularly dual my wiz (in DB) with my barb in delta. I keep mobs off my wiz besides some rare exceptions. I really don't see how barbs can loose aggro so easily except for metal where the sealing avoids building decent aggro. Against Maelael I can see, r9 +10~12 I believe, but agains TT99 +3 b:surprised

As i said, i seem to be taking damage from the mobs, it could be that not all mobs are agroed by the others. By me standing near the middle to the edge, i get agro from the stray bunch. But lunar baffles me. Maybe i start my dd too early, before a barb can build agro?

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

BB is a bless buff for the squad, mss is a debuff on the boss. So yeah they stack. Mss adds, not sure about the names anymore, muddle and fright to the boss. So it won't stack with those same kind off statusses, mainly barb frighten (fright), sage roar (muddle), spidervine (both), pet frighten and muddle/frighten proc's that are pretty rare.

I'll look them up, the sad thing is, i rarely ever see people using such skills. I am a big fan of mss, after i tried it out in pq3. Just before the boss aoes, i use mss and charm ticks are avoided usually for those who don't spark on time.

I know vana is a bad place, but that is the only place where i meet "normal" players. My friends are OP, my faction is OP. I do most things with faction and friends, i hardly take damage. That is why when i go with others, it always surprises me.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

I thought i was the only crazy one that i stole agro with my tt99 +3 axes or dragon hunt +5. Against r9, i can never take agro. More often than not, in delta, lunar, warsong i do end up with agro on mobs. I am in a constant aoe. Especially in lunar, i have to time my stuns when my hp is high, because i am using the bp returns and bb heals to heal up from all the mobs. I often exclaim in squad, why do i have agro in squad, while there are better refined people there.

Though there have been amazing players i have been with. There was one barb, who showed me by example why barbs are taken to delta. The whole squad timed the hf, gs, sub sea, amp (we are awesome like that) and he would arma. Most mobs die at that point, and i would be complaining, where do i get chi from now b:angry? killed all my chi friends. Most barbs i ran with before, simply ran in, agroed mobs, came back, and i ended up with agro quickly. I would use somewhere from 100~150 mp pots. With that barb i used about 40 for a full delta.

On that first section: My build out-aggros +12 G13 Sins with full DoT. It semi ping pongs HP build Sins with 5.0 Sac Strike/GoF G15, and semi ping pongs (or I have aggro the whole time) vs R9 +10 sins. Really, it comes down to how much they crit and zerk.

But example is 99 keys boss. If GS fires with the crit proc, I have aggro for 95% of the fight vs R9 +10. R9 +12 they have aggro no matter what I do. It's also a matter if I go straight DD the whole time and just use mire, I tend to have aggro more. Anytime I'm in a support role, usually that R9+10 has aggro, cause Im missing those seconds of damage to HF and etc.

But onto AoE...

Lunar is an excellent example of where barbs don't get aggro. The mobs have high HP so the fights will go long enough for BMs to spike past barbs, and the fights don't go long enough for say, seekers to grab aggro. But we are talking similar gearing here.

The ultimate combo is where Im talking about with timing the HF with the Barb's arma. I think I need to communicate more with my teams when playing my barb with that, cause I try to time with the BMs but they aren't always consistent.

But yea pro squads, especially for BH there, it's HF, maybe AOE once, and its all dead. Hit cloud eruption, bell, and marrows to get chi back inbetween. Honestly unless its a weird round, or a weaker squad, I don't even bother with stun anymore - just HF and cycle aoes to keep aggro.

And ugh gets some event gold and get an MP charm, you'll thank yourself later lol.

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

As i said, i seem to be taking damage from the mobs, it could be that not all mobs are agroed by the others. By me standing near the middle to the edge, i get agro from the stray bunch. But lunar baffles me. Maybe i start my dd too early, before a barb can build agro?

Just an indication, my wiz discoball does about double the damage per tick as my bms normal fissure with the hammers stated above. My wiz is channel build and weap is G15 +7 with demon db.

Okay ideally, the barb rounds up the mobs, stops at the entrance to the "tunnel", invokes, roars, and hits surf real fast. Brings mobs in, sunders while you HF, and then Armas. They can move into the standing AoEs at that point or go back to surf.

But, if you chain your aoes well - Stun Optional, HF - Drake Sweep, Highland, Fissure, Cylcone/Fan, repeat - you will spike enough and be constantly aoeing for damage and will rip aggro if you have the right gear. However, if you are doing pure support and concentrating on stunning and other support skills (and knocking around or chasing archers/runners), you may have a slightly tougher time taking aggro.

In the case with DB, yes the ticks are freakin uber with a well refined mag Wiz. You should be cycling about 2 AOEs for every 1 DB tick on average. Provided you spike well, it should out aggro. Hell I was doing well back in the day with my APS armor and +10 GXs.

Lunar is always funky, like I said above. The problem is the time to kill the mobs due to the higher HP. You can wait, stun first for sure, but it kinda depends on squad makeup. You may just have to be prepped to take the aggro and work along with the Barb to keep everything off the DDs. In smaller aoe situations I just run around and FR the mobs on my Barb inbetween the bigger aoes.

Honestly though, I haven't had a barb in Lunar in months because Ive always pulled/tanked on my BM.

Also, WGTM is a good place to practice your grouping, pulling, and aoe ranging skills. Good aoe tactics is extremely applicable to both WGTM and RB. PV is kinda an easy joke aoe wise tbh.

Empu - Sanctuary

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Okay ideally, the barb rounds up the mobs, stops at the entrance to the "tunnel", invokes, roars, and hits surf real fast. Brings mobs in, sunders while you HF, and then Armas. They can move into the standing AoEs at that point or go back to surf.

But, if you chain your aoes well - Stun Optional, HF - Drake Sweep, Highland, Fissure, Cylcone/Fan, repeat - you will spike enough and be constantly aoeing for damage and will rip aggro if you have the right gear. However, if you are doing pure support and concentrating on stunning and other support skills (and knocking around or chasing archers/runners), you may have a slightly tougher time taking aggro.

If I'm supposed to hold aggro because off squad setup, I find the best to go to entrance and invoke like you said, but then use stomp, sunder, arma then go back to squad to use surf and should be able to use stomp again by that time. Works well for me when I got to hold aggro till at least all mobs without increased life/defences are dead. With bramble and/or sov, it's even rare to loose aggro. I keep roar as safety, ofc only cast it if I can sunder/arma/stomp right after it.

Ofc, if the rest off squad won't have trouble getting some aggro, I won't take my time like that on getting good aggro and rather go for dropping my arma during hf. Then I just stomp + sunder for aggro. I can't stress out enough how stomp of the king is amazing for aoe aggro.

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Lunar is always funky, like I said above. The problem is the time to kill the mobs due to the higher HP. You can wait, stun first for sure, but it kinda depends on squad makeup. You may just have to be prepped to take the aggro and work along with the Barb to keep everything off the DDs. In smaller aoe situations I just run around and FR the mobs on my Barb inbetween the bigger aoes.

Honestly though, I haven't had a barb in Lunar in months because Ive always pulled/tanked on my BM.

The funky part about lunar is that you have limited time to spend on "positionning" mobs. On seeker it's freaking easy (sage vortex), but on barb the immobilize mobs are quite an annoyance. If there is a good bm/wiz/psy, it's rather easy. But on just a random squad...

Jaabg - Sanctuary

No wonder i take agro, the last few barbs, just did roar (the magic sword appearing on mobs?) and they run back, and often just triple spark and start dd. On the rare few equations there have been pro barbs who just run in, use alpha male (genie skill), run back. There was one special barb though , he just ran in, and ran back, and just stood in the middle.

Another issue i saw with barbs was often pulling in trial 2, the first set of trials. They all have decent hp, most of the time, the squad is OP, all they have to do is just run in, no need to agro. The bms stun, hf, gs, boa is up, wizzy are up, mobs die quick. But the barbs tend to die at the steps as they enter the room. I know the mobs hit hard, i pull on my bm with 9k hp, and i have to use pots, but i would think barbs would have an easier time. Trials is one place where i don't take agro from aoe. I do at times have agro from the bosses b:shocked, g16 should be this strong b:cry.

On a side note, trials is an amazing place to see timing. In the beginning of any fight, bms are flawless in their timing. You have 5 bm, all of them will hf at the exact same moment, 5 hf's stacked, 5x hf bonus b:victory. Must be all the vana training we get. But that gets sorted out soon enough. In trials i play a support role at all times, gs, hf always together. Those r9 people, with the base buff, do awesome damage. Aram's hitting for 1m+ b:dirty

Maelael - Heavens Tear

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

If I'm supposed to hold aggro because off squad setup, I find the best to go to entrance and invoke like you said, but then use stomp, sunder, arma then go back to squad to use surf and should be able to use stomp again by that time. Works well for me when I got to hold aggro till at least all mobs without increased life/defences are dead. With bramble and/or sov, it's even rare to loose aggro. I keep roar as safety, ofc only cast it if I can sunder/arma/stomp right after it.

Ofc, if the rest off squad won't have trouble getting some aggro, I won't take my time like that on getting good aggro and rather go for dropping my arma during hf. Then I just stomp + sunder for aggro. I can't stress out enough how stomp of the king is amazing for aoe aggro.

Stomp Im still working on obtaining, I will wanna try this on my barb. However the Barbs that have it that I've just recently done some fulls with - it didn't help (we had a chat about it).

The only thing I kinda don't agree with is doing sunder/arma away from the squad. I feel that HF and Subsea and etc with that increases not only greater threat, but the efficiency of the party. BUT - I guess if you're really concerned about the squishies this wouldn't be bad. Next time I run I'll experiement with it (Only one is a 30k barb unfortunately, but I may be able to dig up a few R9 friends, especially after 2x is over and they get off their sins).

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

The funky part about lunar is that you have limited time to spend on "positionning" mobs. On seeker it's freaking easy (sage vortex), but on barb the immobilize mobs are quite an annoyance. If there is a good bm/wiz/psy, it's rather easy. But on just a random squad...

Yea the randoms are a bit tough. Unfortunately due to the lesser anti immobilize skills on the Barb, I find it easier to pull and position with the BM. Not that I can't do it with the Barb, its just a PITA.

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

No wonder i take agro, the last few barbs, just did roar (the magic sword appearing on mobs?) and they run back, and often just triple spark and start dd. On the rare few equations there have been pro barbs who just run in, use alpha male (genie skill), run back. There was one special barb though , he just ran in, and ran back, and just stood in the middle.

Okay triple spark and DD is fail, way more damage outta other skills for those 3 sparks. If it affected Arma, sure - but it does not. Alpha male does not increase much threat at all, save for enough to delay or stop heal aggro.

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

Another issue i saw with barbs was often pulling in trial 2, the first set of trials. They all have decent hp, most of the time, the squad is OP, all they have to do is just run in, no need to agro. The bms stun, hf, gs, boa is up, wizzy are up, mobs die quick. But the barbs tend to die at the steps as they enter the room. I know the mobs hit hard, i pull on my bm with 9k hp, and i have to use pots, but i would think barbs would have an easier time. Trials is one place where i don't take agro from aoe. I do at times have agro from the bosses b:shocked, g16 should be this strong b:cry.

Reason is they are stopping to roar, and not invoking before they roar, so they get killed during the casting time. Really you need a good base HP and a good amount of def levels for that nonsense without invoke. Ideally they also want SoV/Bramble (SoV if demon barb) for the pull as well, so they don't lose aggro on the first corner they pull.

TBH a well built (15k-20kish HP) BM with good def levels pulls that really well. Just pmarrow through it and you're fine, especially in R9. With the fac my BM is in, we've just had 2 R9 BMs solo the mob rooms.

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

On a side note, trials is an amazing place to see timing. In the beginning of any fight, bms are flawless in their timing. You have 5 bm, all of them will hf at the exact same moment, 5 hf's stacked, 5x hf bonus b:victory. Must be all the vana training we get. But that gets sorted out soon enough. In trials i play a support role at all times, gs, hf always together. Those r9 people, with the base buff, do awesome damage. Aram's hitting for 1m+ b:dirty

Ideally they should be communicating in fac chat or on vent with that. Some of the better aware people will watch eachother and time it automatically. Most bosses I go into debuff mode, HF -> Cyclone -> GS -> Cyclone and triple spark inbetween. Ideally with 5+ BMs there should be enough communication or awareness to keep that boss perma GSed and HFed. Could really do it with 4 demons just fine if they keep their timing on.

But, axe spam is kinda good DD in trials due to the blessing buff...

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Ideally they should be communicating in fac chat or on vent with that. Some of the better aware people will watch eachother and time it automatically. Most bosses I go into debuff mode, HF -> Cyclone -> GS -> Cyclone and triple spark inbetween. Ideally with 5+ BMs there should be enough communication or awareness to keep that boss perma GSed and HFed. Could really do it with 4 demons just fine if they keep their timing on.

But, axe spam is kinda good DD in trials due to the blessing buff...

One reason I like all-path over axe-only is on bosses if you see a bm switch from fists to axes you know an HF is coming. If you see a BM cloud erupt, you know an HF is coming. If you see a pole come out, you know GS is coming.

With my lag by the time you see dragons from another BM its too late to cancel your own, especially in faction trials, WBs, or events where its either a public area, or more than 6 people in a squad. Too many skills, too much of a light show for my graphics card.

Watching for a weapon change gives you a heads up of whats coming. Axe on BMs don't change weapons so they don't communicate that to you. You might get in a rhythm (they HF, I HF, the other BM HFs, repeat) but seals/stuns or need to rebuff throws that rhythm off sometimes.

Nalvaes - Raging Tide

You gotta keep this in mind: each weapon tree has advantages over the others sometimes

Poles get Glacial Spike which lowers mage/phys def which is useful on mage bosses and when DD is mage

Poleweapons are slower then most other weapons but it has linear aoe and a long range attack, they mostly have higher crit rates of other wepaons too

Swords get Myriad Sword Stance which lowers enemies mage/phys attk and attk speed which can help healers if things get ugly

Swords are slower then fists but can knockback and slow mage casting, most swords give high phys attk/resist bonuses too

All of these are AOE so it's your preference, but having all of them is useful, mabye not all the time but still

Jaabg - Sanctuary

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

One reason I like all-path over axe-only is on bosses if you see a bm switch from fists to axes you know an HF is coming. If you see a BM cloud erupt, you know an HF is coming. If you see a pole come out, you know GS is coming.

There are two problems with the above. Most people i know will not look at the bms for such things. In our faction we announce count to 4~5 to give casters time to get their heavy dd ready, and we hf. But people still complain, most people have turned down effects, where you can't see hf. When you have 20~40 sparky skills going off, it's hard. It is something to notice, if people pay attenton.

2nd, there is a worrying amount of players who think hf is done with fists b:shocked. Apparently we only hf at specific time, switch to axes, hf and switch back. People miss it.

Even with all the timing issues, trials are still fun. Especially trial 9, squad wipes b:dirty. That trial is massive lag when the pull comes in. I click after specific time, even though the animation is not showing up, most often timing is off, and i die, but one can only anticipate in those situations.