Debuffs on barbs

Jaabg - Sanctuary

Hi b:bye

Had a few questions that my noob power lvled barb wanted to ask. I want to use my barb as a tank, vit build barb. That part is going smoothly. This barb will not be for tanking, just there to debuff bosses, and keep alive long enough so the bm/sin/mystic, who ever else died in squad can rez, rebuff and get back on track.

The questions revolve around skills

1) Under what situations do people use penetrate armour over devour? If both are phy def reduction and devour has a greater reduction?

2) Does a barb have problems acquiring chi back if they are constantly using devour and alacrity of the beast?

3) When would Violent Triumph be useful? This appears to be like maze step (for sin), will of bod (bm), if so, used under the same conditions?

4) How effective is bestial onslaught (sage) on vana, tt bosses? Does it mean, other classes have a lower chance to miss?

5) How effective are the bleed skills in dealing total damage over 15 seconds to 3 minutes? That is how long most bosses last in our squads. They seem to amount to 1 normal hit over a 10~15 second period.

6) Does Raging Slap mean, that even if you don't have agro, use this skill, agro will shift to you for 6 seconds?

7) Bestial rage is a chi recharge skill? Does that include aoe attacks, or have to be direct attacks from bosses?

8) What kind of macro setup would you suggest for a barb to have perma pdef debuff, and using alacrity of beast as soon as it is out of cool down? Do barbs auto attack after using their skills, or do you need to add normal attacks in macro? Sins often just stand after failed macros (100% of the time), very annoying when dual clienting.

I know all these are noob questions, once i start playing my barb, i'll slowly figure these out, i just wanted the opinion of other barbs, who are experienced in such matters. Thank you for your help, insights and time.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

1) Under what situations do people use penetrate armour over devour? If both are phy def reduction and devour has a greater reduction?

While standing for whatever reason (APS, Sage DD) use penetrate. Otherwise Devour is superior.

2) Does a barb have problems acquiring chi back if they are constantly using devour and alacrity of the beast?

Do you mean and flesh ream? Typically no depending on your APS. Between Beastial Rage, hitting enough skills, and a chi pot or genie skill here and there if its really bad, I can usually keep Demon FR and Devour almost constantly for 2-3 minutes.

3) When would Violent Triumph be useful? This appears to be like maze step (for sin), will of bod (bm), if so, used under the same conditions?

Pretty much, although its a short duration. I use it to get into bases in TW and while pulling some mobs that slow or seal. Most of the time I'm using Vacuity, depends how long the pull is, I'll use both. Biggest issue is you have to stand up, hit the skill, then go back to tiger, so its kinda a pita.

4) How effective is bestial onslaught (sage) on vana, tt bosses? Does it mean, other classes have a lower chance to miss?

Devour and Penetrate armor is bugged. As long as you hit once with them, you never miss on a mob.

5) How effective are the bleed skills in dealing total damage over 15 seconds to 3 minutes? That is how long most bosses last in our squads. They seem to amount to 1 normal hit over a 10~15 second period.

Bleed skills are ****.

6) Does Raging Slap mean, that even if you don't have agro, use this skill, agro will shift to you for 6 seconds?

The skill is PVP only.

7) Bestial rage is a chi recharge skill? Does that include aoe attacks, or have to be direct attacks from bosses?

Any hit whatsoever.

8) What kind of macro setup would you suggest for a barb to have perma pdef debuff, and using alacrity of beast as soon as it is out of cool down? Do barbs auto attack after using their skills, or do you need to add normal attacks in macro? Sins often just stand after failed macros (100% of the time), very annoying when dual clienting.

I don't do dual boxing or macros on my barb, couldn't tell you. Personally - I'm demon and just skill spam in tiger form. FR, Devour, Alacrity, and Surf.

I know all these are noob questions, once i start playing my barb, i'll slowly figure these out, i just wanted the opinion of other barbs, who are experienced in such matters. Thank you for your help, insights and time.

I'll be honest here, make or borrow someones level 80ish Barb and do some FFs.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Maelael pretty much nailed it, and there's nothing I can correct. Just maybe a few things I'll expand on in this color.

Under what situations do people use penetrate armour over devour? If both are phy def reduction and devour has a greater reduction?[/I]

While standing for whatever reason (APS, Sage DD) use penetrate. Otherwise Devour is superior.

Sage's have reduced damage in tiger form so many will stand up to dd. This always has annoyed me since most barbs are better debuff hoars than they are dd and since Devour is a better pdef they'd increase the total damage output more by just staying tiger and never attacking than they do by attacking and PAing. Not to mention if you're going sage you'll be stuck at level 10. On Sanctuary sage PA runs about 100m. Devour also has the perk of lasting 15 seconds and lowering opponents attack levels by 15 so it makes it easier for sins/bms to tank.

2) Does a barb have problems acquiring chi back if they are constantly using devour and alacrity of the beast?

Do you mean and flesh ream? Typically no depending on your APS. Between Beastial Rage, hitting enough skills, and a chi pot or genie skill here and there if its really bad, I can usually keep Demon FR and Devour almost constantly for 2-3 minutes.
If you meant Flesh Ream and Devour that will drain your chi. Devour only will not. Alacrity will help you gain chi back since it gives more chi than a normal attack. If you're not tanking there isn't a reason to FR. You'll just make the boss move and make people chase it.

3) When would Violent Triumph be useful? This appears to be like maze step (for sin), will of bod (bm), if so, used under the same conditions?

Pretty much, although its a short duration. I use it to get into bases in TW and while pulling some mobs that slow or seal. Most of the time I'm using Vacuity, depends how long the pull is, I'll use both. Biggest issue is you have to stand up, hit the skill, then go back to tiger, so its kinda a pita.
Its an 8 second Bodhi/Maze Step. As Maelael said it is kind of a pain because you need to start human, use it, then go tiger and start the pull. So you have to plan ahead when you'll need it, and when you go tiger you'll have the human hp gap.

4) How effective is bestial onslaught (sage) on vana, tt bosses? Does it mean, other classes have a lower chance to miss?

Devour and Penetrate armor is bugged. As long as you hit once with them, you never miss on a mob.
It doesn't help others. As Maelael said there is a glitch that once a pdef skill is used on a boss the player has 100% accuracy (except the forced aps accuracy glitch they implemented). That's why it's smart to open with a devour. Then your regular attack spam won't miss, even with only 60 dex. I'm not sure if the 100% accuracy glitch gives others 100% accuracy or just the casting player.


5) How effective are the bleed skills in dealing total damage over 15 seconds to 3 minutes? That is how long most bosses last in our squads. They seem to amount to 1 normal hit over a 10~15 second period.

Bleed skills are ****.
This. Don't even count it as damage.

6) Does Raging Slap mean, that even if you don't have agro, use this skill, agro will shift to you for 6 seconds?

The skill is PVP only.

7) Bestial rage is a chi recharge skill? Does that include aoe attacks, or have to be direct attacks from bosses?

Any hit whatsoever.

8) What kind of macro setup would you suggest for a barb to have perma pdef debuff, and using alacrity of beast as soon as it is out of cool down? Do barbs auto attack after using their skills, or do you need to add normal attacks in macro? Sins often just stand after failed macros (100% of the time), very annoying when dual clienting.

I don't do dual boxing or macros on my barb, couldn't tell you. Personally - I'm demon and just skill spam in tiger form. FR, Devour, Alacrity, and Surf.
Aim for 9 seconds in between Alacrities. So you'll have to time it out with regular attacks/Devour. It should look something like:
repeat(follow):Alacrity, Devour, frighten, attack, attack, attack,
And that will be about 8-9 seconds. You can't add bestial rage into macro because it ends them. Any instant skill ends a macro.


I know all these are noob questions, once i start playing my barb, i'll slowly figure these out, i just wanted the opinion of other barbs, who are experienced in such matters. Thank you for your help, insights and time.

I'll be honest here, make or borrow someones level 80ish Barb and do some FFs.
Run BH69s for people. Thats one of the hardest mob/player level ratio instances in the game. Its got alot of versatile situations. The poison mobs, seal mobs. Kiting mobs. Physical mobs. Bosses you need to pull. Bosses that debuff. Bosses that you should cancel. Its one of the best barb training grounds there are, and people are always looking for a barb so it'd be nice to offer the help.

Niteshadows - Harshlands

Make a sin.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

It doesn't help others. As Maelael said there is a glitch that once a pdef skill is used on a boss the player has 100% accuracy (except the forced aps accuracy glitch they implemented). That's why it's smart to open with a devour. Then your regular attack spam won't miss, even with only 60 dex. I'm not sure if the 100% accuracy glitch gives others 100% accuracy or just the casting player.

100% sure it does not help others, just the Barb. I've tested this on both sides, being the DD or the Barb.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'll be honest here, make or borrow someones level 80ish Barb and do some FFs.
Run BH69s for people. Thats one of the hardest mob/player level ratio instances in the game. Its got alot of versatile situations. The poison mobs, seal mobs. Kiting mobs. Physical mobs. Bosses you need to pull. Bosses that debuff. Bosses that you should cancel. Its one of the best barb training grounds there are, and people are always looking for a barb so it'd be nice to offer the help.

I agree on BH69, but FF is easier and teaches you the standards of the class. BH69 is a better test given the complexity of the mobs and the difficulty of the bosses. Especially if you are going with similar level toons instead of bringing some level 100's with you.

The ability to time Alacrity with Earthquake backup, while ensuring you keep aggro from the DDs is a great test of your skills. If you don't wine, it's also a great test of your pulling abilities given so many slow, seal, stun and stay at a range.

If it wasn't for the APS craze killing BM hp, the last two bosses are also an excellent test of BMs as well in terms of tanking - can you cancel everything and not get killed. If you have a BM with you who is not a complete (BLEEP), you can coordinate with them on cancels. Shadowless kick (or Alacrity from you...) itself is actually enough to keep the bosses cancelled if the BM (or you) is good enough with timing.

Jaabg - Sanctuary

Thank you Maelael and Sakubatou for your detailed and insightful responses. Will be asking more questions as i level more. I plan to use the barb to debuff bosses mostly for our squad of bms, sins. Barb won't be a dd. Mostly going sage because of barb buffs. Will probably make a sage sin for bp to. Why can't other classes be as simple as bm to play b:cry.

What is the definition of an instant skill?

Won't be using flesh ream or other agro skills, don't want agro ping pong between 3~5 characters. It's bad enough with two, three. Bosses tend to start a magic attack when agro changes, and often times I would go squish if i have to tank 2~5 magic hits one after the other.

Does tangling mire stack with pdef reduction? The icons are different, so i would assume yes. Devour+Mire (55% pdef reduction) ~ 100%+ pdef reduction? Will that effect be similar to hf for physical attacks?

Is Niteshadows increasing post count by saying make a sin on every post?

I plan to run through each bh on barb and see how to handle things, and keep on repeating the ones where i have trouble. Also plan to pull in fcc, and the exp room, and see if i can dd them and kill them in decent time as i level.

Blaxton - Raging Tide

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

4) How effective is bestial onslaught (sage) on vana, tt bosses? Does it mean, other classes have a lower chance to miss?

Level 10 and 11 Bestial Onslaught reduce evasion by 50%, so I assume they'd help other melees miss less. Aps characters have pretty good accuracy in most cases though, and if they use Mire or some other p.def reducing skill, then it won't matter at all... Would be easier to just Devour + Frighten if you're making a debuff macro barb.

Onslaught's Evasion debuff is more useful in PvP I guess.

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

What is the definition of an instant skill?

.......

Does tangling mire stack with pdef reduction? The icons are different, so i would assume yes.
.

True Form and Bestial Rage are instant cast skills (no channel or casting times). If you look at the skill description it will say Channel: Instant.

Yes Mire stacks with Devour/PA. It also gives 100% AoE accuracy on all mobs affected.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

Jaabg - Sanctuary wrote: »

Why can't other classes be as simple as bm to play b:cry.

I plan to run through each bh on barb and see how to handle things, and keep on repeating the ones where i have trouble. Also plan to pull in fcc, and the exp room, and see if i can dd them and kill them in decent time as i level.

Ugh I dunno what you're doing on your BM to say that, I by far play my Barb to enjoy the lack of complexity.

The exp room isn't hard at all to pull really. Killing it solo is possible past 95 on barb for sure (I never tried solo before that though). The smaller pulls throughout the instance are good to practice your pulling skills on though.

Blaxton - Raging Tide wrote: »

Level 10 and 11 Bestial Onslaught reduce evasion by 50%, so I assume they'd help other melees miss less. Aps characters have pretty good accuracy in most cases though, and if they use Mire or some other p.def reducing skill, then it won't matter at all... Would be easier to just Devour + Frighten if you're making a debuff macro barb.

I should have addressed onslaught more in depth.

Bestial onslaught is flat out, worthless in PvE due to how accuracy and evasion works given the super low evasion values of mobs. I'd have to dig for it, but I did the math on how the accuracy nerf on APS was meaningless to PvE, but made a difference in PvP.

Best way I can put this:

PvE: Mob has a value of 50 Evasion, but you have a value of 2000 Accuracy. Cutting that evasion in half to 25 still gives you the same insane amount of hit % - IE, its meaningless.

PvP: Opponent has a value of 1500 Evasion to your 2000 Accuracy. Cutting that in half makes a huge difference.

Yes, its almost that much night and day difference in Evasion values. If it's a big deal I can try and dig up that post.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Think we've had this discussion before but I didn't think Tangling Mire glitched accuracy to never missing. Can anyone that has tested verify it does or does not?

I've checked other physical defense debuffs on other chars and can vouch PA, Devour, and a BM's Glacial Spike all give 100% accuracy for that character. I should try Tangling Mire, Veno Ironwood, and Cleric Dimensional Seal (not that my cleric will be fap sticking anything to death). When I get a second to hop in game I'll experiment and post results.

FCC is certainly easier to pull, but I'd say its harder to interupt. There are a few skills I'm not sure can be canceled in there, as well as a few bosses you don't want to interupt (Runewolf). BH69 is harder, but the bosses have a very clear channeling that you can practice timing on.

On a side note, I had a friend who hated level 100 nubs and wanted to shame PWI for giving us FCC. His plan was to make a video of us doing level 50-60 squad runs of the instance and suggest they make it harder. The lowest we could manage though was a 59-76 squad clearing FCC since we needed a few level 59 skills to make it not so unbelievably painful. Also, we were too lazy to relevel characters just for this so we were using alts that were near that range.

shotwhointhewhat

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

PvP: Opponent has a value of 1500 Evasion to your 2000 Accuracy. Cutting that in half makes a huge difference.

A nice bonus in pvp is that it is 100% accuracy so you can do a pure vit/str/whatever build and still easily hit most players without depending on blood bath. Being demon and having only 60 dex, I have to pretty much use blood bath unless I am fighting a caster. I still wouldn't trade it for my version of onslaught though. b:pleased

XKate - Momaganon

1. Devour is 50% physical reduction at lvl 10 while penetrate armor is only 30%. Use devour if you want just to debuff.
2. While I tank SoT or Abaddon BH bosses I always use a combo of flesh ream, alacrity and devour so that they are always debuffed. To keep up with chi I need: bestial rage, genie chi skill and from time to time surf impact or frighten, that keeps enough chi to even turtle sometimes. Your best bet if you want just to debuff while duo-ing is to use devour, auto-attack and genie chi skill (get a genie with 50 magic and lots of vit).
3. I only use it in delta rarely.
4. Pretty much useless, imo.
5. Bleed only helps with aggro management.
6.-
7. Any attack that hits you gives chi while bestial rage is active.
8. Devour,Alacrity,surf impact,auto attackx3,devour ...

Blaxton - Raging Tide

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Think we've had this discussion before but I didn't think Tangling Mire glitched accuracy to never missing. Can anyone that has tested verify it does or does not?

I can test when I get home. I use Mire before Sunder/Arma when soloing FC and PV and I'm pretty sure I've never missed a mob after that.

Magnanimous_ - Heavens Tear

Blaxton - Raging Tide wrote: »

I use Mire before Sunder/Arma when soloing FC and PV and I'm pretty sure I've never missed a mob after that.

I also use mire during most my pulls. Never found any outlying mobs with half hp or full Hp after all the other mobs are dead.