Defense cap?

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

So most of us remember the Buddha's Guard "glitch" that it caps at 90% reduction (somewhere around 34.5k pdef) even though we can get 90k+ pdef (95% reduction).

So, I've been experimenting with different endgame build ideas now that t3 is out and the more I look the less appealing JoSDs are in pvp now that my opponents can get 100+ attack levels easily and I'm looking at 60ish def levels. Meaning no matter what I do I'm still looking at the "average" opponent having about 40 attack levels over me.

But, with the higher defenses of t3 vit stones have more to multiply and we get greater amounts of defense reduction, something that is applied before def levels anyways and reduces the bulk of damage.


Anways, that's the way I'm thinking. My question is does physical and magical defense reduction actually cap at 90%? With cleric buffs I'm looking at90% pdef reduction unmarrowed and 82% magic marrowed, with 73% mdef reduction unmarrowed and 83% magic marrowed, with 34 def levels. If 90% is a cap I'm hitting it before bell spamming, pmarrow, apos, base buffs or other buffs and I may as well push more towards mdef or def levels.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

I can't address the cap, but I can address the JoSD situation. Im not that good of a calc guru nor have I tried to reach caps.

I will say for a fact, I survive better with the JOSD in both PvE and PvP situations than another BM who has the same refines, but Vit stones. And he's prolly a better player than I am too.

But that's in R9.

My other thought process is the difference between the HP of JoSD and Vit stone.

JOSD: 48%
Vit Stone: 3.6k hp (47/36 Pdef Mdef per Stone. 1128/864. 8% buffer from N3 = 2030/933)

But, were looking at hit damage overall:

On a 40k hit, even at the 1.3% per JoSD Calc - thats 27.52k damage - but lets say we just reduced 12.48k, thats not even close to 3.6k hp. I'd doubt the 933 mag def would make up for another 8k.

30k hit: 9.36k reduction. Not close to the 3.6k, and also - +11 R9 just survived that 30k hit in JoSD, Vit Stone would not.

20k hit: 6.24k. Again, not quite even to 3.6k.

10k hit: 3.12k. Now were close to the 3.6k.

So as the damage scale gets smaller, the Vit Stones I would assume are more worthy. Personally, Im usually more worried about the high damage 1 shots than I am the smaller damage. I can survive smaller hits through charm ticks, heals, etc - but the big one shot hits, or that really **** my charm ticks are a problem. Damn wizzies and psys.

Are we sure Def levels are applied after Pdef and Mdef?

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Are we sure Def levels are applied after Pdef and Mdef?

I'm not completely sure, honestly, but its whats always been assumed. PWpedia calculates it that way in the effective health but doesn't say in the actual damage reduction area. Phys resistance is calculated before 'reduce physical damage' and I think the idea behind defense levels are they're applied to the damage you recieve, not the damage you take.

PWI is always so vague about their own calculations and don't give us the algorithms used.

I ran my build through Asterelle's calc. Depending on opponent attack levels I survive a physical opponent better around 70 attack levels by using vit stones and I survive a magic opponent around 120 attack levels by using saph/vit stones. The middle is somewhere around 90 attack levels which is basically r9 (full r9 first tier is 93 attack levels). I'm also 98% pve. PvP gets old after about 10 minutes a week as their is very little different to it, so I basically get my pvp fill in tw. However I still want the best gear balance for both (JoSD are overkill for PvE... yah, but I still want the best).

So, def levels cancel at a rate of 1.2:1 attack levels. If I have 60 def levels that would cancel 72 attack levels. If my opponent has 93 attack levels they still have 21 attack levels over me and are doing 121% damage. So assuming 1 attack level= 1% they go from 193% dmg to 121% so 37.3% less damage from the 60 def levels. Now if I shard only 2 pieces instead of all 6 with JoSDs I'd only have 44 def levels so they do 140.2% instead of 193% so 28.3% reducetion. The 16 def levels made a difference of 9% dmg. To put that in perspective going from 89 to 90% defense reduction is 9.1% also.

JoSDs do have their beauty. An hp pot or heal goes farther. Their duplicity for both magic and physical defense. But they are more powerful the less attack levels your opponent has and i'm just seeing opponent attack levels getting higher and higher while our def levels can't keep up. On the other hand our base defenses are also getting higher and higher so a vit stone has more to multiply than it did when we last compared Vit and JoSD.

TheDan - Sanctuary

I'm not sure where you get buddha guard glitch from or the 90k + phys def = 95% reduction. When I buddha guard I have over 120k + phys def, and it still says 90% reduction for level 105 enemies. If you're basing the 95% off of PvE, that's probably right if you tested it against level 150 bosses or something, but I'm pretty sure for PvP it's capped at 90%; I've done tests against another R9 Barb and he hits me the same before and after buddha guard (~2k).

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

TheDan - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'm not sure where you get buddha guard glitch from or the 90k + phys def = 95% reduction. When I buddha guard I have over 120k + phys def, and it still says 90% reduction for level 105 enemies. If you're basing the 95% off of PvE, that's probably right if you tested it against level 150 bosses or something, but I'm pretty sure for PvP it's capped at 90%; I've done tests against another R9 Barb and he hits me the same before and after buddha guard (~2k).

That's what I said. It caps at 90% and doesn't reduce any further even though it should be much higher. If it was not capped 120k would give you almost 98% reduction, 90k would give you 95% reduction, etc. But it maxes out at 90% which you only need 34k defense to reach.

My question is the cap only on when Buddhas Guard is on, or if I have >34k pdef without Buddha's Guard is there still the 90% cap.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'm also 98% pve

In comparison of a Seeker vs BM pulling say, FF groups - a seeker doesn't need as much HP to pull, so def levels does go quite far.

But since you're mostly PvE, Vit Stones then. Save yourself the money. JoSD is a bit overpowered for PvE at this time - Vit stone will do just fine.

I had not run WGTM in months solo until last night, and I had half the zone beating on me cause I was being a nub due to seals, and my charm kept up just fine. It almost made the place not a challenge, I was tempted to leave on my APS gear the whole time.

TheDan - Sanctuary

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

That's what I said. It caps at 90% and doesn't reduce any further even though it should be much higher. If it was not capped 120k would give you almost 98% reduction, 90k would give you 95% reduction, etc. But it maxes out at 90% which you only need 34k defense to reach.

My question is the cap only on when Buddhas Guard is on, or if I have >34k pdef without Buddha's Guard is there still the 90% cap.

Oh Ok, I see what you mean now, and it is a hard cap for PvP, whereas the PvE hard cap for level 150 mobs is probably not reachable. Same for magic defense too. If you're basing your decision off of PvE, JoSD actually won't help as much being that mobs in PvE don't have attack level, and the reduction for when def level > attack level is less effective than when the def level < attack level.