r9 bm or r9 seeker

whiskerfish

i recently acquired coins to r9 one character but I have no idea which one to r9.
I know its about preference but I love both my characters a lot. My BM was my first character but the general opness of seeker is awesome. Any thoughts? I plan to do a lot of PvP and TW after obtaining r9

Maelael - Heavens Tear

whiskerfish wrote: »

i recently acquired coins to r9 one character but I have no idea which one to r9.
I know its about preference but I love both my characters a lot. My BM was my first character but the general opness of seeker is awesome. Any thoughts? I plan to do a lot of PvP and TW after obtaining r9

"but the general opness of seeker is awesome." This makes me believe you have yet to get past your 80s.

Go TW with both and then decide.

whiskerfish

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

"but the general opness of seeker is awesome." This makes me believe you have yet to get past your 80s.

Go TW with both and then decide.

i wouldnt be bothering with r9 if i wanst level 80.
The def buff, physical/magical attacks of seekers are what i like.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

whiskerfish wrote: »

i wouldnt be bothering with r9 if i wanst level 80.
The def buff, physical/magical attacks of seekers are what i like.

Seekers aren't OP. Its a big complaint of the class.

I know of several (but few compared to other classes) Seekers are that very happy with their Seeker, and enjoy the hell out of them in all facets. They're an absolute pleasure to work with both in personality and squad contribution. I'd be pissed if they quit their Seeker. My TW team's target caller is a Seeker, and I wouldn't want him replaced by any other class.

I have never heard any of them say they are "OP" compared to other classes in similar roles played and geared just as well.

Nor have I personally seen anywhere that a seeker is "OP" save group PvE AoE situations, and still they're only comparable to other classes - they're filling a role other classes can just fine, and in many cases do a better job than a seeker. They have no specialty role - there is other constant AoE classes, their amp skills are only supplemental to other classes, Barbs and BMs can pull just as well, and they have no ability to hold aggro. They make nice duo and trio partners, but are never a need for anything. Like Barbs, they need some serious balancing on PWI's side in PvE.

At least in PK/TW, Barbs have a pretty good role and effectiveness. Seekers don't hit hard like other DDs, BMs soak hits just as well, they aren't super mobile, and they have no reliable CC.

They're kinda a jack of many trades, but OP at none.

Id say get out some more, do some other instances than FF a bunch of times, do some PK and TW, and you'll be able to reach a better decision. The BM is going to be better for PvP, TW, and PvE. It is a style preference on your end that is important. Asking others for opinions won't help - at all.

Sjuggs - Lost City

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Seekers aren't OP. Its a big complaint of the class.

I know of several (but few compared to other classes) Seekers are that very happy with their Seeker, and enjoy the hell out of them in all facets. They're an absolute pleasure to work with both in personality and squad contribution. I'd be pissed if they quit their Seeker. My TW team's target caller is a Seeker, and I wouldn't want him replaced by any other class.

I have never heard any of them say they are "OP" compared to other classes in similar roles played and geared just as well.

Nor have I personally seen anywhere that a seeker is "OP" save group PvE AoE situations, and still they're only comparable to other classes - they're filling a role other classes can just fine, and in many cases do a better job than a seeker. They have no specialty role - there is other constant AoE classes, their amp skills are only supplemental to other classes, Barbs and BMs can pull just as well, and they have no ability to hold aggro. They make nice duo and trio partners, but are never a need for anything. Like Barbs, they need some serious balancing on PWI's side in PvE.

At least in PK/TW, Barbs have a pretty good role and effectiveness. Seekers don't hit hard like other DDs, BMs soak hits just as well, they aren't super mobile, and they have no reliable CC.

They're kinda a jack of many trades, but OP at none.

Id say get out some more, do some other instances than FF a bunch of times, do some PK and TW, and you'll be able to reach a better decision. The BM is going to be better for PvP, TW, and PvE. It is a style preference on your end that is important. Asking others for opinions won't help - at all.

I had my doubts as well and kept thinking that seeker way better for PK than Bm by watching others

witniss

Play bm
dey so smexay

laloner

Lot of BMs here saying Seeker isn't all its cracked up to be. Where are the Seekers saying that? Outside of lacking anti-stuns Seekers seem happy with their role in TW and don't remember them ever complaining about PVE at all.

Denaini - Sanctuary

This post is about the pvp aspects only.
I wouldn't call seekers OP. Of course they do have many advantages - attacks can be both ranged and melee, both physical and elemental. They are HA and have an awesome defensive buff. But as Maelael said, they don't excel at anything. Similar to mystics, they are very strong in duels against any class; in TW, however, BMs are the ones that become 'OP' out of these two classes. If seekers as a class would be missing from TW, it would be hardly noticed. BMs are among the three dominant classes in TW (barb as tank, cleric as defensive support, BM as offensive support. DDs are important too, of course, but they can be interchanged with each other).
In the end it boils down to which class is better suited to you or which you have more fun playing. A well-played seeker will be more effective in TW than a terrible BM, and vice versa.

If your focus in this game is on PVE, pick the class which you enjoy more pve-wise.
If your focus in this game is on PVP, pick the class which you enjoy more pvp-wise.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

depends if you can afford +12 JOSD or not

vannila rank 9 = BM,+12 JOSD = seeker

XCableX - Archosaur

blademasta da best der is!

ElderSig - Dreamweaver

Get G16 Nirvy HA, then Dual G16 axes and swords.

Tada, you have two characters with end-game gear now.

Morridune - Raging Tide

ElderSig - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Get G16 Nirvy HA, then Dual G16 axes and swords.

Tada, you have two characters with end-game gear now.

is a very strong point, and I do question weather or not raising this in a class specific forum rather than your server forum were you'll hear a wider range of opinions from both BM's and Seeker's plus the people who fight against them.

Yes r9 is pretty cool and the final cast looks to be insane least until at least there are a lot more g16 players so better able to compare it, but if you're really stuck between the 2 at the moment go T3 nirvy to begun with as it will be inter changeable and give you a better view at how each preform in respectable EG gears. Personally its the Seekers lack of direction that kept me playing my BM rather than switch. Seeker has great tank but no skills or dps for aggro holding, they have good mix of damage types and range but don't quite stack up to what is possible on a DD like say an archer not to say BM's dont have their issues but thats a topic for another thread currently out of the 2 BM still would win it for me. The fact u refer to seekers as OP tho and didnt say same for BM's may mean you have your answer just feel you need vindication for leaving your BM behind, go with what your most comfortable playing as in the end for you at least it'll work out better than wishing you'd gone the other way and not caved to public opinion at the time

aretsuku

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Seekers aren't OP. Its a big complaint of the class.

I know of several (but few compared to other classes) Seekers are that very happy with their Seeker, and enjoy the hell out of them in all facets. They're an absolute pleasure to work with both in personality and squad contribution. I'd be pissed if they quit their Seeker. My TW team's target caller is a Seeker, and I wouldn't want him replaced by any other class.

I have never heard any of them say they are "OP" compared to other classes in similar roles played and geared just as well.

Nor have I personally seen anywhere that a seeker is "OP" save group PvE AoE situations, and still they're only comparable to other classes - they're filling a role other classes can just fine, and in many cases do a better job than a seeker. They have no specialty role - there is other constant AoE classes, their amp skills are only supplemental to other classes, Barbs and BMs can pull just as well, and they have no ability to hold aggro. They make nice duo and trio partners, but are never a need for anything. Like Barbs, they need some serious balancing on PWI's side in PvE.

At least in PK/TW, Barbs have a pretty good role and effectiveness. Seekers don't hit hard like other DDs, BMs soak hits just as well, they aren't super mobile, and they have no reliable CC.

They're kinda a jack of many trades, but OP at none.

Id say get out some more, do some other instances than FF a bunch of times, do some PK and TW, and you'll be able to reach a better decision. The BM is going to be better for PvP, TW, and PvE. It is a style preference on your end that is important. Asking others for opinions won't help - at all.

True seeker's are not OP, but they are known to hit the highest pike damages in many servers.

Seekers Blood Thirsty morai 100 skill is nice, it can hold agro from a sin, plus it heals the seeker, with 30sec recast

Seekers are more prefered for aoe group, because seekers are the best constant AOE class in the game. Why? because 1, their survivability, and 2 they get the GoF perk on their r9/r8recast weapons which, other constant AOE class like archer and wiz do not,

Other than that seekers are a jack of all trade, but i think we can call AOE something seekers specialize at

X_Rays - Harshlands

Never underestimate a seeker in full JoSD. They can temporarily reach tremendous attack levels. Even full JoSD +12 BM without magic marrow can actually be 1 shotted by a crit-zerk heartseeker.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

X_Rays - Harshlands wrote: »

Never underestimate a seeker in full JoSD. They can temporarily reach tremendous attack levels. Even full JoSD +12 BM without magic marrow can actually be 1 shotted by a crit-zerk heartseeker.

Even a JoSD +12 R9 Seeker can be 1 shotted by a crit-zerk drake ray.

Hexalot - Dreamweaver

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Even a JoSD +12 R9 Seeker can be 1 shotted by a crit-zerk drake ray.

I seriously doubt that. b:chuckle

Maelael - Heavens Tear

Hexalot - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I seriously doubt that. b:chuckle

I didn't screen shot mine, but I'll see if PKmod has his screen shot of it.

Happens all the time. Just about everyone can 1 shot zerk crit everyone with R9 +12 on both sides.

Seekers need a major buff for PK/TW or something that gives them a specialized role in it. Honestly, I say give them some more/reliable stuns. Otherwise they're just meat that hits like Barbs and BMs without any special sauce like catapulling or stuns and HF.

Hexalot - Dreamweaver

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I didn't screen shot mine, but I'll see if PKmod has his screen shot of it.

Happens all the time. Just about everyone can 1 shot zerk crit everyone with R9 +12 on both sides.

To be honest I thought you were just joking with him... but if you're serious then I would definitely have to see a screen shot or something. You did say "Drakes Ray", right ?

That's one of BM's early starter skills which does relatively poor damage (no weapon % attack... only base damage plus some small additional damage) but more importantly... it does "physical" damage only. Even with a zerk crit, physical damage makes it very weak against HA classes never mind a +12 JoSD R9 Seeker whose defense levels can exceed 130. Perhaps the Seeker in your example was purged first or something and even then I still find it tough to believe. b:laugh

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Seekers need a major buff for PK/TW or something that gives them a specialized role in it. Honestly, I say give them some more/reliable stuns. Otherwise they're just meat that hits like Barbs and BMs without any special sauce like catapulling or stuns and HF.

I have a R9 Seeker +12 weapon & +10 gear and honestly... I do alright for myself in TW. I see myself purely as a ranged DD who may not hit as hard as a Wiz or have the DPS of an Archer for example. But who is tankish enough to get closer to the enemy's front lines and wreck havoc (tangling mare > gemini slash on a crowd and watch crits and zerks light people up all over the place b:victory) than your typical Wiz or Archer might be able to do without dieing.

LA and AA classes (even some R9 unless geared out the wazzoo and/or spamming defense charms) usually drop like flies to my Gemini slash. I've zerk crit one-shot R9 Psychics in white voodoo for around 16-19K damage multiple times.

In terms of TW priorities... as a Seeker I don't ordinarily target other HA classes but with my debuffs plus magic (metal) skills which unlike casters can zerk crit... it isn't that difficult for me to bring down a well geared BM (assuming I can catch him without his magic marrow refreshed) or even some non R9 Barbs.

As for lack of control skills, well we all know that BMs are and will always be king of the hill when it comes to crowd control what with their aoe stun, HF, etc.

And I do agree that Seekers seriously lack control skills but it looks like they may have gotten some love with the latest upcoming "Dynasty" expansion. Seekers can already QPQ their morai skill sacrificial slash debuff at 28m range to seal an opponent + reduce their defense levels (my Seeker reduces opponent's defense lvls by 30).

With the cool downs to be reduced to 30 secs, the QPQ/sac. slash combo actually becomes semi-spammable... particularly if combined with sage heart seeker (15 sec cool down) which has been upgraded to 100% guaranteed to paralyze. Essentially Seekers will now be able to lock down an opponent for 11 secs straight or for a total of 19 seconds in every 30 secs and do it from 28 meters away. b:cool

Seeker anti-stun skills still suck monkey balls however. Yep... very genie/apoth dependent here. b:surrender

But anyway... my point is that all classes (except maybe Sins b:avoid) have some kind of role in TW... it just depends on gear and skill really. Most of the 2+ years I've been on PWI I have been playing my BM main. But after switching to Seeker I have found that class to be more enjoyable by far... but really it's just my preference I suppose.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

Hexalot - Dreamweaver wrote: »

To be honest I thought you were just joking with him... but if you're serious then I would definitely have to see a screen shot or something. You did say "Drakes Ray", right ?

That's one of BM's early starter skills which does relatively poor damage (no weapon % attack... only base damage plus some small additional damage) but more importantly... it does "physical" damage only. Even with a zerk crit, physical damage makes it very weak against HA classes never mind a +12 JoSD R9 Seeker whose defense levels can exceed 130. Perhaps the Seeker in your example was purged first or something and even then I still find it tough to believe. b:laugh

Yes...Demon Drake Ray.

Even on my old PWCalc, if Im doing the damn math right:

81 Attack levels with Omalley (so the 130 seeker gets 49% reduction)

2211+16892=19103
(19103*2)*2 = 76412
49% reduction: 38970

Full buff insane Pdef and -Phys attack % cuts out maybe 10k of that damage with attack buffs on the other end. We can make someone else figure the weird PWI math out on that.

Laugh all you want, Ive seen it happen in PK and TW. TBH I couldnt tell you what buffs the one I 1 shot had on, it was a bit quick.

Hexalot - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I have a R9 Seeker +12 weapon & +10 gear and honestly... I do alright for myself in TW. I see myself purely as a ranged DD who may not hit as hard as a Wiz or have the DPS of an Archer for example, but who is tankish enough to get closer to the enemy's front lines and wreck havoc (tangling mare > gemini slash on a crowd and watch crits and zerks light people up all over the place b:victory) than your typical Wiz or Archer might be able to do without dieing.

I watched 3 R9 seekers come out and do all that against us, and Vortex. We have one R9 Seeker who we field. He'll spam that stuff and vortex when I run bombs. He's 10x as effective as the other side. I'll be honest, we pretty much ignore them other than to be AOE targets for their buddies around them. Severe non factor.

Other example I'll give you is - People will worry about an R8ish level Caster, or BM. R8ish level Seekers are pitiful, at best they get a lucky *** stun off. Now, this guy may have been bad at his class and I wont name names, but Ive had one +10 +12 Weapon R9 Seeker beat on me in TW while I killed all of his buddies in the area, and he got off a stun once, which seriously didn't even affect me much. Thats just plain sad. The R8/R8r ones are conveniently ignored. Whereas R8 BMs, Casters, etc...not so much. The Seekers are killed, but the real threats are taken care of first. They just don't have an aoe reliable stun, single target reliable stun, or a debuff that can ruin your day. They're just kinda crappy DDs who can take damage.

Hexalot - Dreamweaver wrote: »

LA and AA classes (even some R9 unless geared out the wazzoo and/or spamming defense charms) usually drop like flies to my Gemini slash. I've zerk crit one-shot R9 Psychics in white voodoo for around 19K damage multiple times.

Oh yea, good crits and zerks from anyone can pull that off. JingYi 33k'ed an R9 Psy a few weeks back. My point is everyone can do that.

Hexalot - Dreamweaver wrote: »

In terms of TW priorities... as a Seeker I don't ordinarily target other HA classes but with my debuffs plus magic (metal) skills which unlike casters can zerk crit... it isn't that difficult for me to bring down a well geared BM (assuming I can catch him without his magic marrow refreshed) or even some non R9 Barbs.

Well...tbh the best target caller Ive worked with is a Seeker, Rav. He's got damn good skills for it, both class and personal. Basti, the before mentioned follow up guy in R9, is amazing at both placement and timing. But I think either could do this in another class, just as well or better. Seekers just don't have anything another class can't do better. Its really more about the person behind the toon.

Hexalot - Dreamweaver wrote: »

As for lack of control skills, well we all know that BMs are and will always be king of the hill when it comes to crowd control what with their aoe stun, HF, etc.

And I do agree that Seekers seriously lack control skills but it looks like they may have gotten some love with the latest upcoming "Dynasty" expansion. Seekers can already QPQ their morai skill sacrificial slash's debuff at 28m range to seal an opponent + reduce their defense levels (my Seeker reduces opponent's defense lvls by 30). With the cool downs to be reduced to 30 secs it actually becomes semi-spammable... particularly if combined with sage heart seeker (15 sec cool down) which has been upgraded to 100% guaranteed to paralyze. Essentially Seekers will now be able to lock down an opponent for 11 secs straight or for a total of 19 seconds in every 30 secs and do it from 28 meters away. b:cool

This goes back to my two classes than need help conversation: Barbs and Seekers. Barbs need more aggro, Seekers need more damage or CC. I dont think the expansion skill improvements are enough, but it will help make them less chumpy.

Speaking of chumpy, my other issue with Seekers is debuffed, they're always toast. The other two HA classes at least have something they can utilize to defend easily when that happens, or some ultis they can throw out as a dying wish or something like that.

Hexalot - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Seeker anti-stun skills still suck monkey balls however. Yep... very genie/apoth dependent here. b:surrender

But anyway... my point is that all classes (except maybe Sins b:avoid) have some kind of role in TW... it just depends on gear and skill really. Most of the 2+ years I've been on PWI I have been playing my BM main. But after switching to Seeker I have found that class to be more enjoyable by far... but really it's just my preference I suppose.

Sins actually have a specific role others dont fill as well - ganking. Seekers don't. They're just underpowered versions of other classes. Key word - underpowered.

Veno: Debuff, Purge, Nuke
Cleric: Duh
Mystic: Heal, Nuke, Rez Buff
Psy: Nuke, Debuff, Survival Skills
Wiz: Nuke, Debuff, Survival Skills
Archer: Nuke, Oddball CCs, Survival Skills
BM: CC, Survival Skills
Sin: Gank, kiiinda survival skills
Barb: Duh
Seeker: Can't nuke as well as the above, CC skills suck, Debuff Skills suck, Survival Skills suck. Can't heal, purge, gank, rez, or pull cats.

I've never heard of a Seeker, or the class in general, being "That thing" that won a TW. Ever. Every other class, yes.

Now Ive seen them make important things happen, but each in situations other classes could have done so as well...so again nothing special or specialized. They need improvement/help in the TW arena.

But your last sentence brings me to my point a ton of posts ago - what's fun for you and whats your preference? A well played anything that is enjoyed by the player is totally welcome in a TW. Thats the 100% in my opinion, who cares about class.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

As a follow up, I can tell a similar story.

When Trolololo was being put together (A 2 week faction designed to put together good players to take on the biggest faction on HT), there were zero of the following classes on the "Dream" roster:

Sin
Seeker
Mystic

Now after some talk some were added. We did end up fielding 2 Mystics (I wanna say three, but Im not seeing it on the rosters), 1 Seeker, and 2 Sins. There may have been more via latecomers and last minute drops, but thats what was on the roster.

In this case, a group of people, who had barely PKed together for a week let alone TWed together, went and 15 minuted the biggest faction on HT. This includes towerbusting up B and the B gate towers. We literally paved them so hard, I actually moved my squad to the other side of B because we ran out of people to kill.

This is the faction who can field 60+ full R9s, most of them +10, full shards, and better. Like they have gear I droooooooool over. Not to mentionr R8r and etc. If you wanna see pro gear, check out GD on HT.

Trolololo had about tops, 75% of their gear. Conservatively I'd say 60%. We had many people in TT99 out there, and many who had R9 and not even +10. But, if you asked them, we fielded 30 (we had 12) R9 +10 - +12 JoSD BMs (Chuck Testa level "Nope!"), and really, the only amazing hit was JingYi's (R9 Seeker) 33k on Tightend (R9 Psy).

In the realm of Sins, they had virtually nothing to do. One actually went up the line during base defense with the BMs because he was that bored (and pro...)

The two mystics, one was on Def squad and nuking the **** outta the Cat squads' support, and the other was with me nuking, and petal supporting the clerics and barbs.

The one seeker was just there to pwn. Nothing significant besides that 33k. Which even he said was amazing.

The enemy remembered our BMs. Not the Sin that was up front tanking, not the Mystics that were out there doing an amazing job, not the Seeker who 33k'ed their arguably best Psy. Not the archers, wizzies, and psys that were eating their people, not the catabarbs that barely took a scratch, not the clerics who stayed up and didn't die (I think one died...once.) The BMs. All 30 with R9 +10- +12 JoSD. (Again, Chuck Testa.)

Hexalot - Dreamweaver

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Yes...Demon Drake Ray.

Even on my old PWCalc, if Im doing the damn math right:

81 Attack levels with Omalley (so the 130 seeker gets 49% reduction)

2211+16892=19103
(19103*2)*2 = 76412
49% reduction: 38970

Full buff insane Pdef and -Phys attack % cuts out maybe 10k of that damage with attack buffs on the other end. We can make someone else figure the weird PWI math out on that.

Laugh all you want, Ive seen it happen in PK and TW. TBH I couldnt tell you what buffs the one I 1 shot had on, it was a bit quick.

2211+16892=19103
(19103*2)*2 = 76412
49% reduction: 38970 - 10K (phys def per above) = 28970 x 75% PVP reduction = 7242.50

And to be honest even that's a bit high. I've never had any R9 BM hit me for more than 2.5K using skills only... ever. The only way a R9 BM has ever been able to kill me is to stun lock me in place when my genie/apoth is in cool down, HF (my QPQ would have to have been in cool down to) and then axe me to death with zerk/crits. Suffice to say... it doesn't happen very often.

As to the rest... well I can see you have a very low opinion of Seekers vis a vis other classes and I suspect it would be futile to change your mind. b:chuckle

Seekers are never going to be great at killing BMs or Barbs without having to work at it plus having a bit of luck. But I suspect when you say your TW squad ignores R9 Seeker damage I really wonder if that sentiment is shared by the Clerics, Venos, Mystics, Wizzies and (depending on gear) Archers in the squad ? b:chuckle

I just want to address one point you brought up above about anybody being able to kill with zerk crit and thus a Seeker doing so is nothing special. Of the four classes who can wield zerk weapons, how many can drop aoes that zerk crits multiple targets from a range of 25m or more ?

Exactly... only one can. And they can do it either with physical damage (gemini) or magic (Ion spike). That by itself contradicts your... "whatever Seekers can do... other classes can do better" statement. b:laugh

Anyway... to each their own.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

Hexalot - Dreamweaver wrote: »

2211+16892=19103
(19103*2)*2 = 76412
49% reduction: 38970 - 10K (phys def per above) = 28970 x 75% PVP reduction = 7242.50

And to be honest even that's a bit high. I've never had any R9 BM hit me for more than 2.5K using skills only... ever. The only way a R9 BM has ever been able to kill me is to stun lock me in place when my genie/apoth is in cool down, HF (my QPQ would have to have been in cool down to) and then axe me to death with zerk/crits. Suffice to say... it doesn't happen very often.

Again, totally unsure on buff status. I know the hit was 28k that I did. Normally to kill seekers I just HF+Faceroll axe skills or just faceroll axe skills. I've done a few stunlocks but usually like you said, apoth and etc.

Hexalot - Dreamweaver wrote: »

As to the rest... well I can see you have a very low opinion of Seekers vis a vis other classes and I suspect it would be futile to change your mind. b:chuckle

Low yes, but I wouldn't say they are garbage or useless. The class itself just needs to be beefed up.

Hexalot - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Seekers are never going to be great at killing BMs or Barbs without having to work at it plus having a bit of luck. But I suspect when you say your TW squad ignores R9 Seeker damage I really wonder if that sentiment is shared by the Clerics, Venos, Mystics, Wizzies and (depending on gear) Archers in the squad ? b:chuckle

Now this may be a misunderstanding in terminology. When I mean ignore, I mean go for another class. IE, if you're going to kill something, you kill everything else first, then the seeker, or just go around them like in cases of them being in the death tunnel vortexing. Damage is damage, hell even the small amount reflective aura counts. But in terms of priority, they're the last in 99% of situations.

Hexalot - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I just want to address one point you brought up above about anybody being able to kill with zerk crit and thus a Seeker doing so is nothing special. Of the four classes who can wield zerk weapons, how many can drop aoes that zerk crits multiple targets from a range of 25m or more ?

Exactly... only one can. And they can do it either with physical damage (gemini) or magic (Ion spike). That by itself contradicts your... "whatever Seekers can do... other classes can do better" statement. b:laugh

Funny enough this was the point I brought up for including them in Trolololo to a few people. Sure, Wizzies, Psys, and Archers do better damage at a range, but they can do good damage at a range while being an HA class? Plus I brought up the playskill factor as well.

(You forgot the HA thing, and Wizzies and Archers get their choice of Phys and Mag attacks. AOE is kewl at a range but thats a playstyle thing, in many cases harder hitting single targets in rapid succession = better than most aoes out there)

But answer me this: In a perfect world (No pun intended) of everyone is a great player, with perfect gear - where would you slot in a Seeker in TW over another class, and why?

EDIT: Thought of some other ****.

Would I also down anyone for picking a Seeker as a main? Hell no. If anything I wanna see PWI beef up the class to make it even better for them. It's the same with Barbs (and I love mine), I don't judge anyone for taking a demon or sage one. I feel the Seekers need some help PvP wise and the Barbs PvE wise.

It's also fun to note I have a Seeker (just boring compared to BM playstyle, but thats a personal preference) and my In-Game wife is a seeker, although she quit She's one of the amazing seekers I wouldn't have switch classes ever, like a couple other ones Ive grouped with often. But they all play hard as hell. All the "meh" seekers are a waste of space.

Hexalot - Dreamweaver

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

But answer me this: In a perfect world (No pun intended) of everyone is a great player, with perfect gear - where would you slot in a Seeker in TW over another class, and why?

Let me turn your question around for you. There are currently 5 races and 10 classes in PWI. Suppose in my scenario PWI decided to increase TW to 100 people per side instead of current 80. Suppose as well that on the evening of TW with all 100 slots filled with 10 of each class, your TW leader came to you and said there was this kick *** R9 +12 3rd cast Wizz who wanted to join TW but the only way was to ask someone else to give up their spot.

Ignoring the ethical implications of faction disunity which may come about when asking someone to take one for the team, etc... and assuming everyone else had great gear (but not R9 3rd cast obviously), were all equally skilled the same as in your own scenario... which of the current 10 classes would you ask to give up a slot ? b:pleased

To answer my own question, I would ask a Sin rather than a Seeker or any other class to give up it's slot every time. Stealth ganking in TW is over rated when everybody and their Cleric has Veno bramble buff. Plus even those that aren't brambled would know better (everyone is a great player in our scenarios after all) than to stray too far from the back lines or cata squads so when a Sin unstealths they are within easy range of a one-shot (or two shot I suppose cause of deaden nerves). Versus quality TW factions, Sins are really only good for scouting the lanes and the occasional suicide run behind the enemy lines I suppose.

If Sins for some insane reason held a soft spot in the faction leader's heart and are thus untouchable... then it comes down to whether the team needs more DD over more support roles. If more DD is required then a veno spot is up for grabs. Believe it or not... no one takes a veno for their DDing... it's purge, purge and more purge while amping whoever they they can.

The Faction I used to belong to actually had on their website among the list of classes they were looking for, both Sins and Venos as low priority at one point. b:chuckle

And of course you already know my view of what a Seeker brings to TW such as being an excellent ranged DD (not pretending they are as good as Wizzies or Archers but still very few AAs can flat out ignore a gemini crit) with high spiked damage; can charge the front lines due to being very hard to kill and can make life difficult for catas by vortexing the choke points. So to answer your original question... Seeker would also take Sin's spot.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

Hexalot - Dreamweaver wrote: »

*snip*to give up their spot.*snip*

I just wanted to say you are like my favorite person to discuss with right now, no sarcasm, Im enjoying this

I agree, Sin as well. Issue is you rarely need more than 3, 5 is about tops, and anything past that is filler/overkill - the Sins will be bored. The bramble thing is a semi non-issue, theres a reason I see sins with bows constantly in TW.

But, I only say sins due to high volume of them. If I had one slot left, and it came between Sin and Seeker, and I had neither in the TW - it would be a hard call, but Id prolly pick the Sin.

Ouch, Venos as a low priority. Thats nuts. A well timed purge is worth like 2-3 people in TW.

But, back on my question, if you had perfect limitless supply - would you roster any Seekers at all?

Hexalot - Dreamweaver

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I just wanted to say you are like my favorite person to discuss with right now, no sarcasm, Im enjoying this

Yeah it's been fun.

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Ouch, Venos as a low priority. Thats nuts. A well timed purge is worth like 2-3 people in TW.

Well it depends. TW factions should always have room for Venos I agree but if that faction has enough R9 Archers with their annoying advanced purge... it mitigates the need for so many foxes since the R9ers would in the end be responsible for far more purges than venos since they can do it at range while handing out heavy damage and not dying as much. In my TW time I've been purged by Archers way more often than venos who I typically one shot once I see them coming.

Barbs surprisingly also do a quite a bit of purging in TW too. Not so much BMs though since they tend to get laughed if seen running around with a pole. b:surrender

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

But, back on my question, if you had perfect limitless supply - would you roster any Seekers at all?

A limitless supply of any class ?

Then yeah... if I could fill my 80 TW spots chock full of Archers, Wizzies and Psys there probably wouldn't be any room for Seekers in this case.

It's only logical that if I have the opportunity to pick the DD classes that tend to dominate TWs then that's what I'll do.

Bare in mind however that if I'm going full bore offense to blitzkrieg the opposing side in 5 minutes, I probably wouldn't have much room for "support class" toons either. which means I'll just be taking a couple of token BMs to go along with the minimum number of Barbs I'll need to haul enough catapults to bring down their crystal as efficiently as possible. I'll also make room for a half a dozen clerics and that's pretty much it.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

At this point going to PMs! Lol its practically a 2 person convo.

TheDan - Sanctuary

This thread is brought up like multiple times a month..

Neither class is "OP." It just comes down to what your squad needs more in its' composition.

Scenario #1 R9 BMs have better crowd control and synergy skills for setting up kills. This is good in situations where you have tons of DDs for nuking like wizards / psychics / archers.

Scenario #2 R9 Seekers have raw damage if your squad already has a good composition for setting up kills. This is good in situations where you have tons of supports like veno, BM, etc, and lack raw damage.

Overall, if you ask me, #1 occurs more often than #2, and BMs have a nicer squad buff to bring to the table as well as crowd control stuns to be viable in a balanced squad composition.

cheeseball314

hurrdurr seekers are just sword bms without aoe stun hf or bell b:avoidb:avoid

Niteshadows - Harshlands

Make a sin.