R8 recast/R9/G15

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Comments

  • KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Hurrdurr - Lothranis wrote: »
    How many times do I kill people my gear level without purging them if they're at least cleric buffed? Very few.

    The extra ~10% you get from G16 over R9 is nothing when bows have a damage range of 40%. The little difference is easily over come by hitting high end and hitting low end.

    In your scenario, if either archer dies fully buffed then I'm loling. I don't know who you PvP against or with, but anyone with competitive gears should not be dying when buffed regardless of your ~10% extra damage output. Hell even when ganked by 3 R9s as an archer I only really die when I'm purged by one of their R9 bows.

    It's closer to about 15~20% after everything is said in done.

    You also have to keep in mind not every archer is full +12 JOSD. You'd also be surprised how effective that 20% hp loss from STA stacked with Arrow inferno can kill a buffed archer btw. But I feel as if I'm arguing with a brick wall. So you can assume you're right and you being the best know everything. So cheers to you sir. You win since it matters so much to you.
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  • Hurrdurr - Lothranis
    Hurrdurr - Lothranis Posts: 1,468 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    It's closer to about 15~20% after everything is said in done.

    And G16 is meant to be cheaper? Goodluck with the rerolls.

    I think what you really meant was I win because you realised how flawed your argument was in saying extra attack > adv. purge and by 'letting me win' is the most graceful way of ducking out without looking like an idiot to everyone.
  • KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Hurrdurr - Lothranis wrote: »
    And G16 is meant to be cheaper? Goodluck with the rerolls.

    I think what you really meant was I win because you realised how flawed your argument was in saying extra attack > adv. purge and by 'letting me win' is the most graceful way of ducking out without looking like an idiot to everyone.

    K if you say so. O let me add then since you seem so sure of yourself. Not everyone on any server is r9. Even if he did use just his r9 bow he would get face rolled by full r9 anyways. And Last I checked you aren't always fighting against r9. So your attack is based solely on a Private server at this point saying that you'll only fight r9.
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  • Eoria - Harshlands
    Eoria - Harshlands Posts: 6,118 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    No offense, but as a cleric, I'm way more afraid of the potential purge from a r9 bow than the extra attack from a g16 Nirvana bow. Why? Because I know that as soon as I get purged, I'm probably dead soon unless I have pots up or it's a private server where everyone has full r9 (and vit build on cleric there just ends up being super trolly). I can pretty much out-heal and reduce the damage with demon stream and IH stack+plume shell+79 skills unless you get off a string of very lucky crits.
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  • unceuncerave
    unceuncerave Posts: 471 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »
    No offense, but as a cleric, I'm way more afraid of the potential purge from a r9 bow than the extra attack from a g16 Nirvana bow. Why? Because I know that as soon as I get purged, I'm probably dead soon unless I have pots up or it's a private server where everyone has full r9 (and vit build on cleric there just ends up being super trolly). I can pretty much out-heal and reduce the damage with demon stream and IH stack+plume shell+79 skills unless you get off a string of very lucky crits.

    Clerics die very easily anyways. Only thing keep you afloat is your plume shell and wings of protection. /Demon stun + Demon quickshot proc = dead cleric.
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  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    It's closer to about 15~20% after everything is said in done.

    The only way for the damage advantage to reach 15% is to compare both weapon at +12, highly doubt it'll reach 20% even if you manage to get the +damage or +attack level additional adds. Remember... +10 attack level doesn't mean +10% overall damage. With that being said, a fully buffed (cleric, barb, BM) target could potentially add ~20% more survival from the added p.def and HP. Factoring out coins and in the -int, it is really a toss up.

    R9 is not for everyone, especially if you are poor. But if you are poor, just how do you propose to farm for the recast mold.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

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  • KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    R9 is not for everyone, especially if you are poor. But if you are poor, just how do you propose to farm for the recast mold.


    Just because someone can't afford full r9 doesn't exactly mean they are poor, or unable to farm anything. A full warsong run isn't even that hard. People just need to know how to play their class.
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  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    A full warsong run isn't even that hard. People just need to know how to play their class.

    Really? I ran in to a veno in advance endless yesterday without soul degen and had bad purge timings. People who know how to play their class will have the means to get money (real life or not). When was the last time you saw someone who you'll admit that is more skilled... but doesn't have comparable gear.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Really? I ran in to a veno in advance endless yesterday without soul degen and had bad purge timings. People who know how to play their class will have the means to get money (real life or not). When was the last time you saw someone who you'll admit that is more skilled... but doesn't have comparable gear.

    I can name a few morons who even with their OP gear are complete idiots. Just like I know people who are undergeared but can play their class pretty damn well. Yes there will always be morons out there, but I'd like to assume there is some intelligence left in this community. That being said, yes in most cases those people probably can, but either they don't have the time to, don't want to spend the time to, or just want to enjoy the game for what it is and ignore the PvP aspect. Hell I'm sure there's an archer who is undergeared that is better then me. I really don't care. That would give me a goal to better myself as a player. (As it should with anyone without an enormous E-Peen).
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  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Full r9 is 60 attack levels
    Full G16 nirv is 60 attack levels.

    G16 may have a bit more base damage but R9 bow will easily have more dps with the -.1 int.

    Also a fully buffed target has easily more than double the survival of an unbuffed one.
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  • KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Full r9 is 60 attack levels
    Full G16 nirv is 60 attack levels.

    G16 may have a bit more base damage but R9 bow will easily have more dps with the -.1 int.

    Also a fully buffed target has easily more than double the survival of an unbuffed one.

    Are you like ignoring the posts of where I said you can get -int on the g16?

    He can't afford full r9 so we are looking purely at weapons atm.

    So.

    G14 R9 +30 attack levels
    G16 Nirvana +40 attack levels.

    Damage - G16
    Interval - Can go either way depending on addons(.05 .1 .15 on the nirvana bow)
    Purge - R9

    Since he wouldn't have full r9, he wouldn't survive with either weapon. So lets ignore full r9s atm. (You both keep putting r9 up like its the only thing you fight.) Most of the playerbase doesn't have a good enough base defense for the buffs to need purging to kill. b:sweat
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  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    On my server very few R9 archers have just the R9 bow. If you can afford the R9 bow you can afford more pieces.

    Realistically you won't get -.1 on the G16 bow. -.05 is doable but even that's not enough to close the gap.
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  • KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    On my server very few R9 archers have just the R9 bow. If you can afford the R9 bow you can afford more pieces.

    Realistically you won't get -.1 on the G16 bow. -.05 is doable but even that's not enough to close the gap.

    Stop generalizing everyone. If you read the OPs post you'll see he isn't going to cashshop and can barely afford just the ring/bow let alone the refines/shards for it. That isn't full r9. -_-.

    -.1 isn't as unrealistic as you think. I've seen at least 10 -.1 interval claw/dag/fists on my server from g15 which has an even lower chance of getting it. It's like getting a 9% channeling. It's uncommon but not as rare as you think. Now getting the -.15 will be the unrealistic one. (Like getting 18% channel).
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  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I can name a few morons who even with their OP gear are complete idiots. Just like I know people who are undergeared but can play their class pretty damn well. Yes there will always be morons out there, but I'd like to assume there is some intelligence left in this community. That being said, yes in most cases those people probably can, but either they don't have the time to, don't want to spend the time to, or just want to enjoy the game for what it is and ignore the PvP aspect. Hell I'm sure there's an archer who is undergeared that is better then me. I really don't care. That would give me a goal to better myself as a player. (As it should with anyone without an enormous E-Peen).

    Every seem a BB cleric get one shot by metal... I have. No amount of skills is going to help that. It is nice and all to rave about skills this skills that. But really... what good is skills if you don't have the tools to use it? In the age of r9... can you even name a skilled archer that doesn't have r9 (or equivalent) him/herself?

    You and I are probably considered decently skilled in both pve and pvp. Put on TT90 armor for 5k hp and throw us in warsong to defend a pavilion. What do you think is going to happen? There is no such thing as undergeared skilled player.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Every seem a BB cleric get one shot by metal... I have. No amount of skills is going to help that. It is nice and all to rave about skills this skills that. But really... what good is skills if you don't have the tools to use it? In the age of r9... can you even name a skilled archer that doesn't have r9 (or equivalent) him/herself?

    You and I are probably considered decently skilled in both pve and pvp. Put on TT90 armor for 5k hp and throw us in warsong to defend a pavilion. What do you think is going to happen? There is no such thing as undergeared skilled player.

    Ill ask then what you define as a under/average/optimum/OP geared player. Everyone seems to have a different opinion on what each is. Because in a sense everything under full r9 is "undergeared" as for the most part it stands no chance against it. Now I can understand a lot of the newer players will have this complete **** (moria/tt90/etc) because the hypered up without bothering to work on their gear first. But I'm talking to like older based players who are still in TT99 / Nirvana gear (I ran full warsong in that kind of gear and made a video of it somewhere back when I was still in Radiance....). Now of course I could be wrong in assuming that OP has at least somewhat decent gear and not complete **** considering the amount he is willing to blow on his weapon. In which case no matter what weapon he ends up getting will be very powerful comparitively (if hes in the mid-tier factions kinda like sadpumas +10 lunar wand back in the day was powerful).

    But thats just me being overly optimistic about certain playerbase. And if I thought about it I could probably think of a few non r9 archers that could play their character a lot better then some of the r9 archers.) I mean hell 90% of the wizard population is better then Stubbie was at a wizard for example. I'm not even going to go into BMs (Onion.Mono,GSX,etc) or other classes...
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  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Ill ask then what you define as a under/average/optimum/OP geared player.

    Skills is a relative term... and relativity must be applied to the whole server as a whole. I don't care for the biggest fish in a two fish fish-tank.
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I'm talking to like older based players who are still in TT99 / Nirvana gear (I ran full warsong in that kind of gear and made a video of it somewhere back when I was still in Radiance....).

    And just which one of these "older based players" who are still around... and don't have r9? Anyone who is half decent is going to figure out a way to get r9.
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    In which case no matter what weapon he ends up getting will be very powerful comparitively

    Very powerful compare to what... compare to me a year and half ago in that two week period where I only have the r9 weapon?
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    But thats just me being overly optimistic about certain playerbase. And if I thought about it I could probably think of a few non r9 archers that could play their character a lot better then some of the r9 archers.) I mean hell 90% of the wizard population is better then Stubbie was at a wizard for example. I'm not even going to go into BMs (Onion.Mono,GSX,etc) or other classes...

    Now would these non r9 equivalent archers that you could "probably" think of stand on even grounds with me without a harem of venos?


    I am not going to argue the skills of any individual player. But I am going to say this. Any player who doesn't have the proper tools might as well be useless. And proper refined gear can easily mask any minor shortcomings.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Skills is a relative term... and relativity must be applied to the whole server as a whole. I don't care for the biggest fish in a two fish fish-tank.

    /Shrug

    And just which one of these "older based players" who are still around... and don't have r9? Anyone who is half decent is going to figure out a way to get r9.

    yes and OP also plans to get full r9 im sure but for the mean time the g16 will be satisfactory enough

    Very powerful compare to what... compare to me a year and half ago in that two week period where I only have the r9 weapon?
    most mid-tier twing factions have very few r9 players. Mostly Nirvana TT99 or lower.


    Now would these non r9 equivalent archers that you could "probably" think of stand on even grounds with me without a harem of venos?
    I don't know? I rarely pay attention to what other archers do anymore unless it involves me defending/attacking one.

    I am not going to argue the skills of any individual player. But I am going to say this. Any player who doesn't have the proper tools might as well be useless. And proper refined gear can easily mask any minor shortcomings.

    Granted the gear makes a heavy difference. I've seen the powerful "R9 pros" fall to "undergeared" players.
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  • SashaGray - Heavens Tear
    SashaGray - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,765 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    if you cant be good without the gear, and the gear covers up the quality of the player, doesnt that reduce everyone to a barely sentient clothing rack on which to display gear?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • _blood_rain - Sanctuary
    _blood_rain - Sanctuary Posts: 2,532 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    if you cant be good without the gear, and the gear covers up the quality of the player, doesnt that reduce everyone to a barely sentient clothing rack on which to display gear?

    Pretty much.
  • FluffyStyle - Sanctuary
    FluffyStyle - Sanctuary Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Realistically you won't get -.1 on the G16 bow. -.05 is doable but even that's not enough to close the gap.

    Just adding on that bit, I've already got G15 ss/int/int daggers, so it's doable.. just unlikely.

    And uh
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    R9 is not for everyone, especially if you are poor. But if you are poor, just how do you propose to farm for the recast mold.

    I never said i was poor, I've got a 25k hp BM/ G15+12 sin too farm with.
    I just said i didn't want too CS for it i want too farm it b:shocked
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    if you cant be good without the gear, and the gear covers up the quality of the player, doesnt that reduce everyone to a barely sentient clothing rack on which to display gear?

    Skills is really only needed against similar geared opponents. If I am fighting against another r9... there is a good chance I'll need to time my stuns/immobilize and even apoc/genie to counter his spike/sparks. And I might even icon/marrow track, adjust my damage, or even play defense until bow purges. PvE-wise... I might actually need to wing of grace/shield and such to buy time between charm ticks or pot heals.
    FluffyStyle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I never said i was poor, I've got a 25k hp BM/ G15+12 sin too farm with.
    I just said i didn't want too CS for it i want too farm it b:shocked

    No one said you are poor... in fact... I don't even know who you are. The "you" was meant as a general reference. The whole point is... if anyone have the means to farm 3rd nirvana recast... then r9 really isn't far away. And for the people who can't afford/get r9... their means to farm 3rd recast will be limited.
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Granted the gear makes a heavy difference. I've seen the powerful "R9 pros" fall to "undergeared" players.

    So some r9 got killed by some r8 somewhere. I have gotten purge, sleep, stun, dot, amp, triple spark tempest dead before. And I am pretty sure I got killed by TT99s in TW before. I think I even died to a nix in TW as a full r9. I guess you can use those as examples where skilled r8s managed to kill an r9. But really... just how often do you expect that to happen. And how many r8s must die before one manage to kill an r9. Just cause it happened once, twice, or even 10% of the time... its really not something to brag about.


    With all the talk about you don't need gear to be "skilled". I have yet seem any names of these "skilled" people who didn't have gears in the top percentile of their time. And I am referring to the big picture. Pointing out the top fish in a fish bowl that no one has heard of... doesn't count.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • Holographic - Harshlands
    Holographic - Harshlands Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    does a barb need a bow for
    people need to enjoy the game, quit finding reasons to hate on people b:shutupb:surrender
  • DarkMarch - Lost City
    DarkMarch - Lost City Posts: 32 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Stop generalizing everyone. If you read the OPs post you'll see he isn't going to cashshop and can barely afford just the ring/bow let alone the refines/shards for it. That isn't full r9. -_-.

    -.1 isn't as unrealistic as you think. I've seen at least 10 -.1 interval claw/dag/fists on my server from g15 which has an even lower chance of getting it. It's like getting a 9% channeling. It's uncommon but not as rare as you think. Now getting the -.15 will be the unrealistic one. (Like getting 18% channel).


    I have started to see a number of players using the G16 bow. And so far, I haven't seen the -int stat on any of them.




    However, Higher damage, great aesthetics and for its cost.. I would take that any day.. it's the prettiest bow!!


    Frankly, I would concur with KawaiiJen more. To argue that r9's purge is needed to kill compared to the g16 bow that does more damage, your opponent must be tanky enough to allow your purge to proc while taking in the damage and not die. That means he is probably also wearing r9 with josds or other OP gears, which is way more expensive than gears 95% of the other players in the server are wearing and makes it a unfair comparison.


    WellxD The point is, G16 bow is a decent enough bow for its price, compared to buying r9
  • Decus - Dreamweaver
    Decus - Dreamweaver Posts: 5,033 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    DarkMarch - Lost City wrote: »
    However, Higher damage, great aesthetics and for its cost.. I would take that any day.. it's the prettiest bow!!

    Debatable. I, for one, am hugely disappointed that there is not a tt nirvy variant.
    Proving that not only archers do math since 2009. b:victory
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  • SpazzMcAps - Harshlands
    SpazzMcAps - Harshlands Posts: 2,561 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Decus - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Debatable. I, for one, am hugely disappointed that there is not a tt nirvy variant.

    ttnirv is best bow
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    DarkMarch - Lost City wrote: »
    WellxD The point is, G16 bow is a decent enough bow for its price, compared to buying r9

    With all the talks about bow this and bow that... guess no one care to mention that the g16 recast xbow is going to out damage g16 recast bow.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    With all the talks about bow this and bow that... guess no one care to mention that the g16 recast xbow is going to out damage g16 recast bow.

    DPH yes I'll agree the xbow will hit harder, now as for DPS I'd say it is debatable. Since most archers are demon and tend to use the crit/aps chain they are using regular attacks more than skills which is where the balance for the Bow comes into play. Xbow would do higher DPH with skills where as a sling would do the most DPS with auto attack. The bow kinda sits in the middle.
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    Ty Fon for the Siggy <3

    The rare and exotic Sage Archer of HT. b:cute
  • Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,385 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    DPH yes I'll agree the xbow will hit harder, now as for DPS I'd say it is debatable. Since most archers are demon and tend to use the crit/aps chain they are using regular attacks more than skills which is where the balance for the Bow comes into play. Xbow would do higher DPH with skills where as a sling would do the most DPS with auto attack. The bow kinda sits in the middle.

    At the upper end g16 xbow has over 10% more damage then g16 bow... but in exchange you lost -int. The damage advantage diminishes as refines goes up. But there is just way too much factors to even make a half decent comparison. The way that I see it is... if you are going for g16 weapon (for archers) you are most likely not going to be in the top tier pk/tw. Anything in your pay grade is going to have **** worth of refines and sub 10k buffed hp outside of barb and the occasional BM... and this is where xbow's spike damage shines. Assuming a poor man's refine of +8 on weapon... the xbow should still have a 20k upper end damage. Factor in the 70 attack levels... then we are looking at 34k pve and 8.5k pvp damage. With that sort of damage, it won't be out of realm of possibility to crit through charm on LA or one shot robes at full hp. Of course things is going to change at the top tier gear level... where its either r9 or play fodder.
    1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
    2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
    3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.

    Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf
  • KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear
    KawaiiJen - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    edited June 2012
    Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    At the upper end g16 xbow has over 10% more damage then g16 bow... but in exchange you lost -int. The damage advantage diminishes as refines goes up. But there is just way too much factors to even make a half decent comparison. The way that I see it is... if you are going for g16 weapon (for archers) you are most likely not going to be in the top tier pk/tw. Anything in your pay grade is going to have **** worth of refines and sub 10k buffed hp outside of barb and the occasional BM... and this is where xbow's spike damage shines. Assuming a poor man's refine of +8 on weapon... the xbow should still have a 20k upper end damage. Factor in the 70 attack levels... then we are looking at 34k pve and 8.5k pvp damage. With that sort of damage, it won't be out of realm of possibility to crit through charm on LA or one shot robes at full hp. Of course things is going to change at the top tier gear level... where its either r9 or play fodder.

    Well see thats why we could have a mature debate about it and do math LOTS AND LOTS OF MATH. /cackles hysterically. (I do math all day at work I'd rather not do too much more then I have to -_-)
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    The rare and exotic Sage Archer of HT. b:cute

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