Can't choose a fist

Canis_Regis - Raging Tide

Hi guys, i got a bm to 100, but now i'm not sure which would be best fist to save up for.

Fist-related questions :
Is the reduce % hp REALLY that usefull vs raw dmg bonus ? to me it means just a few seconds difference in killing a boss and in TW if you get to land that debuff on someone, they must be doing something wrong to get hit with it alot.

What would you consider best fist for pve ?
What would you consider best fist for pvp/TW ?

So far my options are :
deicide -- although i think it fails at dmg, costs too much to refine from scratch and not worth later
windpour
striking dragon
peak of clouds -- i think it'll be too expensive to roll something usefull on this
regicide - same dmg like windpour, different looks
traceless dimension
ghost vanquisher - soulblast
r8 fists reforged aren't an option, since i want my barb to use these fists as well

I'm looking for something with at least -0.05 interval on it.

akosireann

I' d go for striking dragons...most of the aps barbs in my fac use these and they have good reviews on it. still can be upped to nirvy claws/gear if you got tired on it

edit: sorry bout the barb thing cause those barbs also has bm alts that use those fists also...they're account stashable. after running a nirv on their bm,they run another nirv on their kitteh

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

If you already have the coin for them, go Windpour. Cheapest but best claws for your coin.

There are many threads explaining why SDs suck and a few explaining why G15 fists aren't preferable. Search them out.

MrKnuckuls - Sanctuary

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

If you already have the coin for them, go Deicide. Cheapest but best claws for your coin.

There are many threads explaining why SDs suck and a few explaining why G15 fists aren't preferable. Search them out.

fixed. Nothing comes close to the deicide's damage/coin ratio

Maelael - Heavens Tear

MrKnuckuls - Sanctuary wrote: »

fixed. Nothing comes close to the deicide's damage/coin ratio

Assuming you +3 via non orbs, and 10* for 8-10.

Cost:
Deicides: 35m
Windpour: 150m
+10: 86+150= 236m
+12: 481+281 = 998m

+10:
Deicides: 271m, Avg Damage: 1053.5 - 3.88 Damage per m
Windpour: 386m, Avg Damage: 1144.5 - 2.96 Damage per m


+12:
Deicides: 1033m, Avg Damage: 1372.5 - 1.32 Damage per m
Windpour: 1148m, Avg Damage: 1463.5 - 1.27 Damage per m

Pretty damn close at +12. Sadly I had most of this math already, just had to double the price of dorbs and up the price of 10*

MrKnuckuls - Sanctuary

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Assuming you +3 via non orbs, and 10* for 8-10.

Cost:
Deicides: 35m
Windpour: 150m
+10: 86+150= 236m
+12: 481+281 = 998m

+10:
Deicides: 271m, Avg Damage: 1053.5 - 3.88 Damage per m
Windpour: 386m, Avg Damage: 1144.5 - 2.96 Damage per m


+12:
Deicides: 1033m, Avg Damage: 1372.5 - 1.32 Damage per m
Windpour: 1148m, Avg Damage: 1463.5 - 1.27 Damage per m

Pretty damn close at +12. Sadly I had most of this math already, just had to double the price of dorbs and up the price of 10*

To be honest, i never actually looked at the math, i just assumed that because the deicides initially cost so much less with comparable stats, that are better for the coin. I guess the real debate is whether or not the extra damage from the windpour is worth the 115m.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

MrKnuckuls - Sanctuary wrote: »

fixed. Nothing comes close to the deicide's damage/coin ratio

Honestly, that was what I was eluding to. I tease people that they got SDs because they can't afford Deicides. They're nicer at low refines, but lose out at high refines. Deicides are cheaper and then win at high refines, however if you're looking for refining something that high then invest in G13 or better for a more endgame weapon.

MrKnuckuls - Sanctuary

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Honestly, that was what I was eluding to. I tease people that they got SDs because they can't afford Deicides. They're nicer at low refines, but lose out at high refines. Deicides are cheaper and then win at high refines, however if you're looking for refining something that high then invest in G13 or better for a more endgame weapon.

I disagree for more personal reasons than anything on the g13 or better. In my opinion, fists/claws are nothing but farming and chi building tools, therefore, the bear minimum to get you into a good farm squad is all that is necessary, which to me would be Deicide +10 with some decent garnets in it and nothing more. Any other coin would be better spent on endgame axes and their damage output.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

MrKnuckuls - Sanctuary wrote: »

To be honest, i never actually looked at the math, i just assumed that because the deicides initially cost so much less with comparable stats, that are better for the coin. I guess the real debate is whether or not the extra damage from the windpour is worth the 115m.

Id say yes.

8.6% damage increase really at +10 by my math above. DoTs are what, 30m 40m? now on my server. Even when they were 25m, thats 200m worth of DoTs you're gaining.

Are Deicides fine? Definitely. But if you're trying to increase your output overall, G13 nirvvy are a good reasonable investment to get your damage up - dependable stats unlike G15s. G15s start to not be as worth it unless you have the coin to throw away.

jabq

MrKnuckuls - Sanctuary wrote: »

I disagree for more personal reasons than anything on the g13 or better. In my opinion, fists/claws are nothing but farming and chi building tools, therefore, the bear minimum to get you into a good farm squad is all that is necessary, which to me would be Deicide +10 with some decent garnets in it and nothing more. Any other coin would be better spent on endgame axes and their damage output.

This 2x, while not being super active in vana, i was able to get 100 raps. I did about 130 runs, i have +5 deicide. Not sure +10 would help more than +5, because in fast squads i hardly get to spark, and if there is a demon hf, subsea combo, one spark is enough for most bosses.

If people are only one time players, or only show up at specific times, than sure +10 works. But if a player is active and uses their bm often, why not improve the bm with time? Nothing to loose, only gain more fun.

MrKnuckuls - Sanctuary

jabq wrote: »

This 2x, while not being super active in vana, i was able to get 100 raps. I did about 130 runs, i have +5 deicide. Not sure +10 would help more than +5, because in fast squads i hardly get to spark, and if there is a demon hf, subsea combo, one spark is enough for most bosses.

If people are only one time players, or only show up at specific times, than sure +10 works. But if a player is active and uses their bm often, why not improve the bm with time? Nothing to loose, only gain more fun.

Do you need + 10 refine for a fast vana squad? Absolutly not. Demon hf is worth waaaaayyy more than a +10 refine. +5 is plenty sufficient. The problem lies, at least on sanctuary, in that squad don't want to accept you with anything less than + 7 and even that is pushing it. I have demon hf and I've been declined from many squads simply because I wasn't +10. That is the ONLY reason I say +10, for the ease of getting into squads. But no it certainly isn't necessary to be effective, +10 its simply what many squad
builders THINK a bm needs to be effective in vana. That's the way I see it anyway.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

MrKnuckuls - Sanctuary wrote: »

Do you need + 10 refine for a fast vana squad? Absolutly not. Demon hf is worth waaaaayyy more than a +10 refine. +5 is plenty sufficient. The problem lies, at least on sanctuary, in that squad don't want to accept you with anything less than + 7 and even that is pushing it. I have demon hf and I've been declined from many squads simply because I wasn't +10. That is the ONLY reason I say +10, for the ease of getting into squads. But no it certainly isn't necessary to be effective, +10 its simply what many squad
builders THINK a bm needs to be effective in vana. That's the way I see it anyway.

Your DD becomes much more important in 2-4 person squads. So a couple refines and you double your drops. Same with soloing where the difference between +5 and +10 in paint heals and survivability is huge, vs needing to bring a barb/sin/cleric along to tank or heal and splitting your drops. Kind of a "gotta spend money to make money" deal.

jabq

MrKnuckuls - Sanctuary wrote: »

Do you need + 10 refine for a fast vana squad? Absolutly not. Demon hf is worth waaaaayyy more than a +10 refine. +5 is plenty sufficient. The problem lies, at least on sanctuary, in that squad don't want to accept you with anything less than + 7 and even that is pushing it. I have demon hf and I've been declined from many squads simply because I wasn't +10. That is the ONLY reason I say +10, for the ease of getting into squads. But no it certainly isn't necessary to be effective, +10 its simply what many squad
builders THINK a bm needs to be effective in vana. That's the way I see it anyway.

Ah, i simply join squads that say 4/5 aps, most don't ask for weapon links. If i like a specific person or the squad as a whole, add them. If the run takes me 15 minutes and is fun, i would do that, compared to a run that is 10 minutes and no fun. I only have +5 deicide and no demon hf and i got accepted. If still having trouble, join a more active faction, i remember doing about 40~50 runs in faction only, about 4~6 were non aps and fun.

During 2x, everyone is looking for vana, if still can't work with above two option, make your own squads. Quite a few times i picked up players with +12 weapon refines on their sin/bm and we did 5~15 runs in a row. Costs a bit more for more teles, but can be worth it.

Taking a backseat did not help me in september last year, was more proactive about it after that.

As saku said, 2~4 man squad does require higher dd, simply because you don't have the luxury of having 6 dd's. Another alternative is if you have a good caster friend, do caster vana with them.

Kawaiiiii - Raging Tide

Go T1 NIrvana.. it opens up the route to t2 nirvana which is endgame damage.
I managed to get t2 from a pair of deicides in the last 2x so i got rid of my SD xD

Dont bother +12ing g13 sht. huge waste imo.

SpazzMcAps - Harshlands

Kawaiiiii - Raging Tide wrote: »

Go T1 NIrvana.. it opens up the route to t2 nirvana which is endgame damage.
I managed to get t2 from a pair of deicides in the last 2x so i got rid of my SD xD

Dont bother +12ing g13 sht. huge waste imo.

however with g13 you open up the option for full heavy armor. using something like this
http://pwcalc.com/4c74407618f69373

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary

Mah Archer is 5.0 base with GV's. I occasionally punch a Barb to death, but then... I was only 99 and using a HS for bow (HS is +6, my Deicide, which I was 4.0 base with at that time, is +10, and my GV's are +10).

My BM has two fists, TT90G and Deicide. I'm close to going one of two directions with an upgrade. I'm either going to do R8 recast, OR, Nirvana G15.

R8 Recast with +damage bonuses and +attack levels would be considerable damage, it would out DD a G15 Nirvana fist. Nirvana fists are easier to make and cheaper, but at +10 or +12, the R8 recast fists would win on pure DPS, assuming I can get the right mods on them.