Doubt over shards

Tawarwaith - Sanctuary

Before getting to the real deal, I rather give some info b:chuckle

Current gear : http://pwcalc.com/c84891693e94fd03

Side notes :
- Armor is shared between my bm and my barb (old-school vit build), and probably later with my seeker, veno and w/e toon I might create.
- I have the ashura ornaments, which can get me to 5 aps sparked when that is to be prefered over the magic defence. I know ashura ornies aren't any good, but to keep it short : I made those ornaments because it was the cheapest way to get the ashura -0.05 int bonus, only later I got the bm to 100 so now I occasionally use them.
- The belt is kinda mediocre compared to the rest, but my barb's belt isn't stashable. I'm waiting to figure out what to do with my veno before changing the belt. I will most likely look for an oht elemental belt with +str and +dex bonusses.
- All armor is 3 sockets besides the pants.

Now to the question :
At the moment most sockets on my HA set are empty, and I kinda wonder what to do. Ideally I would shard all with vit stones, because that would be the best choice to match all toons that wear and might wear the armor. However, on Sanc the gem prices have become absurd and I really don't think the vit stones adds are worth their price. On top of that, the whole account is filled with alts. So I'm kinda stuck between a few choices :

- Put in flawless/immac citrines, which would be a small fee and I can easily replace it later. However, on the hp I already have make the gain barely noticable.
- Just keep them empty till a hypothetical moment where I would be at +11 everywhere or the vit stones get to a decent price. Which basically means, they will become forever empty.
- Put in sapphire gems that I consider still ok in their price, but that will (psychologically) block the opportunity to reshard later. On barb (that mainly goes as "puller") I think the gain will be good, especially for lunar and tm. On bm, it might allow me to go without magic ornies more and gain -0.05 int (maybe get to lionheart ornies in the future).

Any other suggestions are welcome ofc. For now, I just put in some immacs in the leggings to see the result. But that was like unnoticable...

Hurrdurr - Lothranis

Sapphires are a decent choice for PvP if you cannot afford vits/JoSDs but are not very useful in PvE. G7/G8 citrines are actually worth it considering you would gain over 1k HP from fully sharding G8 citrines over nothing. For the price of a few million I would definitely shard G8 and wipe later if you choose to not G11 sapphire. G11 Sapphires can also be wiped later as the cost is not that high compared to sharding JoSD or vits. However if you are definitely thinking of re-sharding at a later date I would recommend G9 sapphire or G7/8 citrines depending on if you PvP or not.

_Mg_Zr - Heavens Tear

You should go for JoSD and shard immac citrines until you can afford them
or you could go for saphires/citrines if you intend to pvp but imo citrines are better than saphires.

Tawarwaith - Sanctuary

Thx for the replies. Just to be more clear : I simply consider vit stones too overpriced to be still worth the trouble getting. It's not that I couldn't afford them, it's more that I'm not willing to put in the effort. On Sanc, prices have become way to unrealistic and I rather spend my coin on something else. Some consider it a capital sin, but I'm not aiming for the "best possible endgame gear at any cost". What I'm going to put in now, will probably stay in forever. Unless vit stones will be going back to 30~35mil I would be willing to pay for them. So yeah, what I shard now will stay in forever.

Regarding JoSD, I know their advantages over vit stones. However, vit stones have 1 big advantage over jades on a barb : arma. That and their respective costs would make me go for vit stones anyway.

Hurrdurr - Lothranis

If you cannot afford vits then I would say G11 saphs for PvP or just G8 citrines.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

Tawarwaith - Sanctuary wrote: »

Just to be more clear : I simply consider vit stones too overpriced to be still worth the trouble getting.

Socket Calc:
aster.ohmydays.net/pw/socketcalculator.html

Citrines wins out every time with your build. Go Immacs for now if youre gonna build coin for a while and wait for prices to flux.

TBH Id Vit stone at best, JoSDs should be saved for R9. Just R9 with Cits alone would be better than a JoSD'd Nirvvy - and JoSD is even more insane in price.

Hurrdurr - Lothranis

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Socket Calc:
aster.ohmydays.net/pw/socketcalculator.html

Citrines wins out every time with your build. Go Immacs for now if youre gonna build coin for a while and wait for prices to flux.

TBH Id Vit stone at best, JoSDs should be saved for R9. Just R9 with Cits alone would be better than a JoSD'd Nirvvy - and JoSD is even more insane in price.

Asterelle's calculator does not take into account how often you're likely to encounter m.dmg opponents or p.dmg opponents though.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

Hurrdurr - Lothranis wrote: »

Asterelle's calculator does not take into account how often you're likely to encounter m.dmg opponents or p.dmg opponents though.

Which is something utterly random depending on. I've had TW/PK sessions where all I fought was clerics and phys classes, and others where all I fought was ****ing wizards and psys. You're still better off with Citrines - works well for both.

Tawarwaith - Sanctuary

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

TBH Id Vit stone at best, JoSDs should be saved for R9. Just R9 with Cits alone would be better than a JoSD'd Nirvvy - and JoSD is even more insane in price.

Well, I'd rather go for the nirvy with jades then get another r9 set for 2 (and if you count my 90s seeker and veno, 4) different toons. Eventually, it would be cheaper to recast my sins r9 then equiping all my alts with r9 gear b:shocked

I'm mostly wondering what to do, because I doubt vit stones will go down and 50mil+ is just not worth it for 10 vit points.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

Tawarwaith - Sanctuary wrote: »

Well, I'd rather go for the nirvy with jades then get another r9 set for 2 (and if you count my 90s seeker and veno, 4) different toons. Eventually, it would be cheaper to recast my sins r9 then equiping all my alts with r9 gear b:shocked

I'm mostly wondering what to do, because I doubt vit stones will go down and 50mil+ is just not worth it for 10 vit points.

Well here is where you need to make your call:

What are you going to be doing end game with each toon?

(PvE [And where/what], PvP, TW?)

Tawarwaith - Sanctuary

TW is out of the question simply for time reasons.

PvP very occasionnally, just log in on Sanc and look at wc once, you'll get why.

PvE wise, it changes quite often. On barb anything where you gather up mobs (tm, unwined 99, lunar). Unlike most squads nowdays, I don't like to go 1 by 1. On bm, I'm kinda figuring out what I can atm. I got 100 not that long ago and went in a bump from tt90 +3~4 to nirvana +7~10. For bh and such, I usually dual sin+barb and/or bm+cleric.

The reason I thought of sapphires was because I figured +1600 mag def would make a difference on the mag mobs on big pulls. Magic mobs are the only ones that actually hurt, because g15 armor with sage shapeshift intensity gives a lot of physical def already. On bm the "problem" is that the armor set I already had cause of barb doesn't give much space in ornaments and -int. With everyone always demanding 5 aps for about just anything, I'd be using evasion or physical def ornaments. Bm's are less troublesome to swap gear though.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

Tawarwaith - Sanctuary wrote: »

TW is out of the question simply for time reasons.

PvP very occasionnally, just log in on Sanc and look at wc once, you'll get why.

Same [BLEEP] different server. Ignore the drama, do whats fun for you. Seriously.

Nirvvy 2nd cast isnt bad for PvP, you'll at least be able to do some stuff. A lot of people say "R9 or G T F O", and its kinda true - versus +10-+12 R9's, well sharded or not you get outclassed by gear. I'm proof of that as I was totally winning by gear alone for a bit, with little training and skill.

You will have to really, really be on it skill wise. R9+Training/skills really outclasses anything not R9.

Tawarwaith - Sanctuary wrote: »

PvE wise, it changes quite often. On barb anything where you gather up mobs (tm, unwined 99, lunar). Unlike most squads nowdays, I don't like to go 1 by 1. On bm, I'm kinda figuring out what I can atm. I got 100 not that long ago and went in a bump from tt90 +3~4 to nirvana +7~10. For bh and such, I usually dual sin+barb and/or bm+cleric.

The reason I thought of sapphires was because I figured +1600 mag def would make a difference on the mag mobs on big pulls. Magic mobs are the only ones that actually hurt, because g15 armor with sage shapeshift intensity gives a lot of physical def already. On bm the "problem" is that the armor set I already had cause of barb doesn't give much space in ornaments and -int. With everyone always demanding 5 aps for about just anything, I'd be using evasion or physical def ornaments. Bm's are less troublesome to swap gear though.

Well evasion gear is **** - but you've already got em so cest la vie.

The mag mobs on the big pulls, tbh a good cube neck and mag def belt (think warsong) will put you up pretty high if you need that for pulls.

You also gotta think 1600 mag def vs 800 hp. That hp becomes 1040 with just lv 10 barb buffs. BMs also get marrow which helps with that...and with Barbs, who gives a **** if you're over 16-20k hp.

I pulled almost all of Eden with 22khp on a barb at 92 with some pots and genie skills (TT90 +5 & Warsong Belt +7 and Cube Neck +7). Im not sure where your concern is with mag mobs on your barb to be honest?

Really if Mdef is being an issue hook yourself up with a warsong belt for pulling. Good HP and Mdef.

But...

Really backing all of this up - go farm some more coin! You really should just +40/+50 cits the gear, and go make more money to invest/merch and decide where to from there. It's kinda like you're settling at this point, but you really don't want to. I say never settle - shoot for the moon. 2nd stage nirvvy with APS switch out is good stuff for now and you should be able to farm whatever the hell you want for a while.

Tawarwaith - Sanctuary

@Maelael : On my barb I do have a good belt (jungle one, which is pretty close to warsong), it's just that I can't stash it to use it on bm. I guess I'll stay just with empty sockets for a while longer, maybe put in some flawless since I got a few. Sapphires seems not a great idea, so I'll drop that.

Just one note, cause it might be different on your server. Vit stones are pretty much hitting the rate where a +11 orb becomes more cost efficient, and prolly will go past that point someday soon. Heck, for a bm it might already be past that point. If I were to go to spending that much, I'd rather just put it on my sin, because that is a better investment.

That is pretty much why I think of settling at something less. I seemed to have been on time with my sins gear : got r9 before they took out medals of dragon points, got all skills before all types of pages became horribly expensive, got my weap to +12 with the famous short 11* and 12* sales, got DoT at 3.5~6mil while they are 25mil+ now, etc. I think you understand now : the absolute valor of the vit stones really isn't the issue. They are just not worth the price they ask on Sanc, so I'm looking for an alternative. For now, there doesn't seem to be one though...

Thx for your feedback

Maelael - Heavens Tear

Tawarwaith - Sanctuary wrote: »

Just one note, cause it might be different on your server. Vit stones are pretty much hitting the rate where a +11 orb becomes more cost efficient, and prolly will go past that point someday soon. Heck, for a bm it might already be past that point. If I were to go to spending that much, I'd rather just put it on my sin, because that is a better investment.

Nope, Vit stones hit 40 a few weeks back, and are close or over 50 at this point.

DoDs are even worse. 4 weeks ago they were 40. Then creeped up to about 41/42. Then a BM I know who will remain nameless, but will burn in hell - bought every DoD possible to fill out his armor, even the crazy gem people who were selling em for 50. They are now 50-65m a pop.

There are three gem merchants, sometimes five, that compete with eachother in west, that are constantly driving up buy/sell prices as well. Im praying for an amazing pack sale to kill these prices back down and finish my own jade set.

I also know two barbs working on Vit stones for their R9, and they're angry too. Really its unreasonable merching - Im not sure though if the server is going to avoid the gems so they finally fall in price, or accept the prices and thats that. I'm kinda glad I ended up with at least half my jades are more reasonable prices.

Sorry for the rant, just stating I feel ya.

That is pretty much why I think of settling at something less. I seemed to have been on time with my sins gear : got r9 before they took out medals of dragon points, got all skills before all types of pages became horribly expensive, got my weap to +12 with the famous short 11* and 12* sales, got DoT at 3.5~6mil while they are 25mil+ now, etc. I think you understand now : the absolute valor of the vit stones really isn't the issue. They are just not worth the price they ask on Sanc, so I'm looking for an alternative. For now, there doesn't seem to be one though...

Thx for your feedback

Yea I think a lot of my server has also gone that way...the price isn't worth it, and people just say **** it, and go cits. It really opens up a huge gap between those who R9 +12'ed and full sharded prior. Really if all of them are at 50-60m each - it's almost cost efficient to open packs unless you have **** luck like I do. Either the server has to stop buying the stuff at overpriced, or we just gotta deal.

SpazzMcAps - Harshlands

Tawarwaith - Sanctuary wrote: »

@Maelael : On my barb I do have a good belt (jungle one, which is pretty close to warsong), it's just that I can't stash it to use it on bm. I guess I'll stay just with empty sockets for a while longer, maybe put in some flawless since I got a few. Sapphires seems not a great idea, so I'll drop that.

Just one note, cause it might be different on your server. Vit stones are pretty much hitting the rate where a +11 orb becomes more cost efficient, and prolly will go past that point someday soon. Heck, for a bm it might already be past that point. If I were to go to spending that much, I'd rather just put it on my sin, because that is a better investment.

That is pretty much why I think of settling at something less. I seemed to have been on time with my sins gear : got r9 before they took out medals of dragon points, got all skills before all types of pages became horribly expensive, got my weap to +12 with the famous short 11* and 12* sales, got DoT at 3.5~6mil while they are 25mil+ now, etc. I think you understand now : the absolute valor of the vit stones really isn't the issue. They are just not worth the price they ask on Sanc, so I'm looking for an alternative. For now, there doesn't seem to be one though...

Thx for your feedback

cant you stash g15?

Tawarwaith - Sanctuary

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Sorry for the rant, just stating I feel ya.

I prefer the rant to the usual "it's Supply and Demand that rule the prices". I hear that so much that I start to wonder if ppl actually know what it means and if they actually read a newspaper past 5 years b:surrender I think most don't even understand how big the impact of the kitamura/warrenwolphy fever is...

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Yea I think a lot of my server has also gone that way...the price isn't worth it, and people just say **** it, and go cits. It really opens up a huge gap between those who R9 +12'ed and full sharded prior. Really if all of them are at 50-60m each - it's almost cost efficient to open packs unless you have **** luck like I do. Either the server has to stop buying the stuff at overpriced, or we just gotta deal.

It sucks yeah. 90%+ of the shards in circulation are in the hands of merchants now I think, and they keep prices artificially high. But I can't really complain about my personal situation. I got pretty decent to good LA, AA and HA 100+ sets. I just keep an eye on the shops, because the day the merchants clean the "buy" side of their shops, prices will start to get back to reasonable.

If prices never go down, I'll just end up with +11 gear with empty sockets some day b:laugh

@SpazzMcAps : It's the g14 one. I got some weird and, for these days, dumb gear choices from the detours I made. This barb is 3 years old, changed to sin on another account, tried an aps build made from the gear I still had on barb, changed back, made a bm, figured a stash would be handy, found the belt to be not stashable (even though it's not mentionned on it) and never bothered to upgrade the belt because on veno I'd need an oht one with str and dex adds anyway.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

Tawarwaith - Sanctuary wrote: »

I prefer the rant to the usual "it's Supply and Demand that rule the prices". I hear that so much that I start to wonder if ppl actually know what it means and if they actually read a newspaper past 5 years b:surrender I think most don't even understand how big the impact of the kitamura/warrenwolphy fever is...

I'm a merch myself. I used to/sometimes still do make insane money off pack items - but I also know what stuff is worth, particularly in relation to the price of packs and gold, so I Im kinda avoiding that market unless I see the right deals. The current prices people want, particularly for gems, is unreasonable versus the supply, demand, and available income capital.

There is a lot of demand, and supply is about regular for this time of year/pack sales. Issue is the incoming capital average does not meet the average market price of the commodities.

Theoretically:
33g = 46.2m. Statistically over large amounts of packs you're making 15m in tokens at low prices, and pulling in 2 items worth minumum 4m, average now about 50m each. Due to the increase on gems and other items - provided you can meet the statistical average you can now make money off opening packs. If the price of gold increases this becomes less likely, as 33g at 2m would be 66m - closer to where were looking at with the price of pack items.

In real life there are price regulations put in, political and business lobbyists, etc. Throughout history real countries and governments have gone through this sort of "price gouging" and it's wreaked havoc on economies and people's welfare.

But this ain't real life, its a game. So Im predicting a few things may happen:

-Price of gold increases.
-People open more packs and keep what they get and essentially trade stuff through catshop buy/sells - and end up with the stuff at cheaper prices. (I know 5 people who do this - I just dont have their luck)
-Prices stay unreasonable for a while, and a good pack sale brings prices back down.
-People accept the prices and the people who already got their stuff rejoice at getting it cheaper. This would be inflation if the price of Gold actually went up instead of down.
-PWI implements pack items like gems in the CS.
-People quit the game because they can't keep up with other end-gamers without heavy CS.

So...yea. Nother rant lol. I was actually whining about this in nirvana last night. I need 12 more friggin jades

Tawarwaith - Sanctuary

Well, I don't really agree with all your rants points, especially the "lot of demand part". Atm, I think most of the demand is merchants. And I also think you underestimated the HUGE supply that is in the merchants banks. On gold this can be seen, and I suspect it to be the same with gems and other items. It's not the lack of regulation, it's the lack of possession cost...

As for rl economy, we really better not go there... Without starting an argue over the reasons and solutions, I think we can agree that the current rl economy isn't really a model of good functionning b:laugh

And damn, we drifted off topic b:shocked

Maelael - Heavens Tear

Tawarwaith - Sanctuary wrote: »

Well, I don't really agree with all your rants points, especially the "lot of demand part". Atm, I think most of the demand is merchants. And I also think you underestimated the HUGE supply that is in the merchants banks. On gold this can be seen, and I suspect it to be the same with gems and other items. It's not the lack of regulation, it's the lack of possession cost...

As for rl economy, we really better not go there... Without starting an argue over the reasons and solutions, I think we can agree that the current rl economy isn't really a model of good functionning b:laugh

And damn, we drifted off topic b:shocked

Well the demand is there on my server for sure - I dunno about yours.

In terms of whats on our merchants:

There were 16 DoDs I saw on the market last night. 6 in one shop (at 60m). Typically there is between 0-8. The upping in price I believe if affecting this (HOPEFULLY).

A bit back, in two days I put up a shop buying DoDs are well competitive prices. I was able to obtain 24 in those two days. There was another shop doing the same - I have no idea how many they got though, but their "buy" screen did increase. Neither of us were merchanting the DoDs.

Possession costs I can't really see being part of a mmo - Im not sure how that would work.

But yea economical models some people get heated over. I just talk about what I see while completely realizing there are differing viewpoints and ideas that may/are just as valid, if not moreso.

And naw this is totally on topic - you want to shard your gear, but because of insane merching issues you can't shard with what you want.

Tawarwaith - Sanctuary

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Typically there is between 0-8. The upping in price I believe if affecting this (HOPEFULLY).

Typically there is about 200 gold on sale on Sanc. If I add the few signatures of Sanc ppl on these forums, there is at least 20.000 just standing somewhere... I'm pretty sure it's the same for shards.

Goods and/or money taken out of an economy isn't a good thing, that is one of the rare points all theory schools (at least at my knowledge) agree on.

On top of that, since most just have below basic understanding and reading of "prices being made by supply and demand", limitting the supply on the market is an attempt to make higher prices accepted by the buyers. Rl this never holds long because of substitutes, but ingame there's not much substitute items.

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Possession costs I can't really see being part of a mmo - Im not sure how that would work.

Actually, there are mmo that have that kind of principle in it. There's a game where your shop looses some sort of hp by being open, which can be increased ofc by some items and all. So shop time is limited or costly, forcing shops to actually sell stuff. PWI's AH has a fee to sell, but the 2 clients rule makes it costless to keep shops open all the time at 0 cost.

Another way to keep items/money circulating is a timer, though that would be very difficult to put in place since you can simply trade with yourself. Yet, I'd be in favor off a time limit on gold each time it passed the AH or even when charged.

Maelael - Heavens Tear

Tawarwaith - Sanctuary wrote: »

Typically there is about 200 gold on sale on Sanc. If I add the few signatures of Sanc ppl on these forums, there is at least 20.000 just standing somewhere... I'm pretty sure it's the same for shards.

Goods and/or money taken out of an economy isn't a good thing, that is one of the rare points all theory schools (at least at my knowledge) agree on.

On top of that, since most just have below basic understanding and reading of "prices being made by supply and demand", limitting the supply on the market is an attempt to make higher prices accepted by the buyers. Rl this never holds long because of substitutes, but ingame there's not much substitute items.

I just dont see people "Sitting" on shards at the moment. The market is higher than its ever been - Id be weirded out to see them sitting on them. It's like the canny market. During 2x buy at 300k or less, month after 2x, they're up to 375-400 - they never go much over 400. You sell then.

I know there is gold being hoarded (I'm doing it myself waiting on a "Real" sale from PWI to profit on and/or +12 my R9).

In this economy the real "limiting" is by the amount and % off sales. Xmas-like sales drive down prices, whereas with the last 1* sale - prices went up to match the price of gold on them. The 1* orbs were 25k-50k cheaper prior to that sale. So there are limitations and prices set by PWI, but even trying to figure out their LT strategy or even thought process behind the sale from their perspective is insanity or a dart board.

Substitution is an interesting question/idea/approach though. With shards it is available for sure, as we can take immacs from the Token shop or setup a shop at the Old Man and buy shards. But, the price is still through the roof cause the combines are insane. Our best economical sub is open packs - which as I said yesterday were close to it being economically viable.

Tawarwaith - Sanctuary wrote: »

Actually, there are mmo that have that kind of principle in it. There's a game where your shop looses some sort of hp by being open, which can be increased ofc by some items and all. So shop time is limited or costly, forcing shops to actually sell stuff. PWI's AH has a fee to sell, but the 2 clients rule makes it costless to keep shops open all the time at 0 cost.

Another way to keep items/money circulating is a timer, though that would be very difficult to put in place since you can simply trade with yourself. Yet, I'd be in favor off a time limit on gold each time it passed the AH or even when charged.

There is a time limit on the gold selling...but you only lose the "AH" charge. Ive lost this once like 2 years ago on incorrect speculation.

The ideas on the limitations and timers are interesting - but I think there'd be a revolt, or someone would figure out a way around it. How would you regulate someone using alts, or friends to buy the stuff and reset the timer? Likewise, could put a charge on utilizing a catshop. But at what point would people avoid that, and instead use WC/Auction channel to sell wares instead? Back in the EQ1 days, all you had for that stuff as Auc and Shout.

Empu - Sanctuary

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Substitution is an interesting question/idea/approach though. With shards it is available for sure, as we can take immacs from the Token shop or setup a shop at the Old Man and buy shards. But, the price is still through the roof cause the combines are insane. Our best economical sub is open packs - which as I said yesterday were close to it being economically viable.

At the moment, more and more (if not already a majority) are making/or want to make money merchanting. However, merchanting is mainly just rolling coins from 1 to another person under the perspective it will become more coins. If it's done on a to big scale, it only hurts the economy more. Cashshoppers and "farmers" are shunned on since 100% f2p became the motto of playing, yet those are the sane ways for the economy to grow...

As for substitutions, the problem is there is no real "different but just as good" like in rl. In 2010 the dutch cheese makers limited the supply and drove prices up with an artificial shortage they created themselves. (Imo that is exactly what is going on. You have another opinion, but I think there are many merchants that have a lot of shards, but only keep 1 or 2 in shop. Not just a wild guess, but based on the wc bid sales on my server.) But they didn't forsee that after driving up prices to high, the ppl just turned to the french and german cheese market... Ingame this can't be done though : you have to accept prices or settle with something less good.

Maelael - Heavens Tear wrote: »

There is a time limit on the gold selling...but you only lose the "AH" charge. Ive lost this once like 2 years ago on incorrect speculation.

The ideas on the limitations and timers are interesting - but I think there'd be a revolt, or someone would figure out a way around it. How would you regulate someone using alts, or friends to buy the stuff and reset the timer? Likewise, could put a charge on utilizing a catshop. But at what point would people avoid that, and instead use WC/Auction channel to sell wares instead? Back in the EQ1 days, all you had for that stuff as Auc and Shout.

There are several ways to put a timer on stuff :
- You can put a timer like on the low lvl gifts, it just expires after x days. But it can be asked if it's fair. What if I get some gem, and I don't have the time to do something with it and then just loose it ?
- A timer that runs only when online. Just put it on an alt that you only log on once you sold it. This would make 90% of the sales go through wc. It would be an improvement now I think of it, since wc has a fee and takes time unlike a catshop on dual account.
- A timer that resets once it's traded. This was wat I first thought off, because I suggested an inversed version on a debate/forum/conferance "3 measures to bring the economy back in order". This obviously won't work, if you can just trade it to yourself or a friend to reset timer. I just thought of it because my suggestion of a 1 month inalienability of stocks was pretty succesfull b:laugh

rotshreck

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

At the moment, more and more (if not already a majority) are making/or want to make money merchanting. However, merchanting is mainly just rolling coins from 1 to another person under the perspective it will become more coins. If it's done on a to big scale, it only hurts the economy more. Cashshoppers and "farmers" are shunned on since 100% f2p became the motto of playing, yet those are the sane ways for the economy to grow...

A player driven economy is really where all MMOs go. This means merchanting and etc.

The issue where a lot of ire comes from is the wanted gear comes from the cash shop - not in game. The actual real source of the economy (save skill books) is from the cash shop.

So you're looking at people who roll over coins to buy gold, and resell the stuff they get with gold. Merchanting is really just a convenience fee, and is controlled by the players.

As for substitutions, the problem is there is no real "different but just as good" like in rl. In 2010 the dutch cheese makers limited the supply and drove prices up with an artificial shortage they created themselves. (Imo that is exactly what is going on. You have another opinion, but I think there are many merchants that have a lot of shards, but only keep 1 or 2 in shop. Not just a wild guess, but based on the wc bid sales on my server.) But they didn't forsee that after driving up prices to high, the ppl just turned to the french and german cheese market... Ingame this can't be done though : you have to accept prices or settle with something less good.

Yea I don't think its a different opinion, but conjecture through evidence. And yea, I think thats where a lot of people have gone - accept the prices or settle.

There are several ways to put a timer on stuff :
- You can put a timer like on the low lvl gifts, it just expires after x days. But it can be asked if it's fair. What if I get some gem, and I don't have the time to do something with it and then just loose it ?
- A timer that runs only when online. Just put it on an alt that you only log on once you sold it. This would make 90% of the sales go through wc. It would be an improvement now I think of it, since wc has a fee and takes time unlike a catshop on dual account.
- A timer that resets once it's traded. This was wat I first thought off, because I suggested an inversed version on a debate/forum/conferance "3 measures to bring the economy back in order". This obviously won't work, if you can just trade it to yourself or a friend to reset timer. I just thought of it because my suggestion of a 1 month inalienability of stocks was pretty succesfull b:laugh

Timer I have a hard time getting behind. What if they are slowly building say - a JoSD. That DoD may sit there for a long time.

And yea I think were on the same page with the other two points.

-Maelael

Empu - Sanctuary

rotshreck wrote: »

A player driven economy is really where all MMOs go. This means merchanting and etc.

The issue where a lot of ire comes from is the wanted gear comes from the cash shop - not in game. The actual real source of the economy (save skill books) is from the cash shop.

So you're looking at people who roll over coins to buy gold, and resell the stuff they get with gold. Merchanting is really just a convenience fee, and is controlled by the players.

The "problem" with merchanting is that it doesn't create any growth. Every coin that is earned, is lost by someone else. Not that is always a bad thing. For instance, bulk buyers create a win-win situation. However, there is a limit in redistributing compared to the real creation, which is cashshop or farm.

Ingame there has grown a sort of hate against cashshoppers, which I really don't understand. Like 2.5 years ago, there were so many that charged normal amounts and insane amounts. I heard a lot of "brb, need to get a charm" and there was some guy with a +7 npc weap that everyone knows he bought those orbs. Now everyone takes some kind of pride out of being f2p, and I'm like : "heck, who the **** even cares how X paid for his/her gear".

I don't see how wanted gear coming from cashshop is an issue. All mats are tradeable anyway. It's not like you actually have to run an instance to get TT gear (just an example of gear that doesn't come out the cashshop directly).

rotshreck

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

The "problem" with merchanting is that it doesn't create any growth. Every coin that is earned, is lost by someone else. Not that is always a bad thing. For instance, bulk buyers create a win-win situation. However, there is a limit in redistributing compared to the real creation, which is cashshop or farm.

Ingame there has grown a sort of hate against cashshoppers, which I really don't understand. Like 2.5 years ago, there were so many that charged normal amounts and insane amounts. I heard a lot of "brb, need to get a charm" and there was some guy with a +7 npc weap that everyone knows he bought those orbs. Now everyone takes some kind of pride out of being f2p, and I'm like : "heck, who the **** even cares how X paid for his/her gear".

I don't see how wanted gear coming from cashshop is an issue. All mats are tradeable anyway. It's not like you actually have to run an instance to get TT gear (just an example of gear that doesn't come out the cashshop directly).

You're absolutely right - where does that coin come from? Per server:
-As there are 60? Territories, thats 600m a week. By far, more than that in gold is turned over.
-BH rewards about 10-25% of the time return 2-5m. Given the amount of gooned alts that are also doing that quest, lets make an educated guess that 1b a day is pumped into the economy. This is probably a lower estimate than reality.
-I'd guess tops 750m a day goes into the economy from NPCing stuff.

So there is growth, but only by the amount of people who FF up to do that quest, as that is the best money maker the game has to offer in terms of pumping coin into the economy. Utilizing that coin you "Farmed".

The current price of gear is extreme compared to the rough chance of coin return from BH. Not everyone belongs to a TW faction - let alone one that can give payouts. Farming drops returns very little. So you're left with farming mats and books - both which require good gear to be efficient - and dont really create growth. So you're left with charging or merchanting for a consistent, dependable income. Which you are correct - does not actually contribute to growth.

But most of the people who merchant also do BH100 and NPC stuff like DQs.

Yea, but all those shards, R9, etc: Comes from the cash shop. Nowadays is "Settling" for TT99 & **** shards. All farmable, though.

Empu - Sanctuary

Well, you pointed out the disproportion between the number of merchant transactions and coins made. However, I like to point out that shard prices before were perfectly doable even if it stays a long-term project. 3 to 5 mil can easily be made in in hour on just npc items, the gap depending on your gear for starters. That, plus bh, plus the eventual nirvana/tt is more then enough to work for r8, nirvana armor and even 1st cast weapon.

R9 is extremely expensive, probably to expensive to be as common as it became now. But I think the main problem is the power-gap between gears. The difference in set-bonus between r9 and nirvana is really rediculous. They were a bit to late with the slaying/warding lvls

But then again, the game doesn't need the powerfull gear, the players put that in themselves with their insane competition-minded playing...