To aps or not to aps

Vindis - Dreamweaver

Ok, so, 2x is upon us.

I am a pure bow 485 dex sage archer (.87 r8+7 bow).

My friend has a pair of GVs (+5) I can buy at 11mil. I can wear them with an engraved Band from Heaven's Jail that I made.

Question is, can I put out more dps like that? Or am I better off investing money I would spend on GVs, and other -int gear (ornas, cape, deicides?) in my 2nd cast LG Vana pants/hat and being done with it? I mostly built this toon as a sage tw pwner.

I have Blood Vow and Awaken.

I did a sample vana trying to use them with 2 unrefined bands (I had not yet added str add to one of the rings). My highest damage with fists was 5.1k sparked crit. Lowest I charted was 9xx unsparked. My Jones was expired since its down right now.

Bow, lowest damage I charted was 2.1k unsparked. Highest was 13.4k sparked crit. Bow dps was only recorded against Kfc.

I assume there's some kind of formula to chart .87 and my average damage relative to crit spikes and the further sparking of the aps. I know Fleuri or Illyana or someone posted a good post about that forever ago, but I can't find it.

/inb4yourealizeImostlypostedthisjusttohavemoretopicsinthearcherforums

Also also, I *could* just make a sin alt.....

Hurrdurr - Lothranis

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Ok, so, 2x is upon us.

I am a pure bow 485 dex sage archer (.87 r8+7 bow).

My friend has a pair of GVs (+5) I can buy at 11mil. I can wear them with an engraved Band from Heaven's Jail that I made.

Question is, can I put out more dps like that? Or am I better off investing money I would spend on GVs, and other -int gear (ornas, cape, deicides?) in my 2nd cast LG Vana pants/hat and being done with it? I mostly built this toon as a sage tw pwner.

GVs at the same refine has DPS similar if not greater to those of Deicides.

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I have Blood Vow and Awaken.

I did a sample vana trying to use them with 2 unrefined bands (I had not yet added str add to one of the rings). My highest damage with fists was 5.1k sparked crit. Lowest I charted was 9xx unsparked. My Jones was expired since its down right now.

Bow, lowest damage I charted was 2.1k unsparked. Highest was 13.4k sparked crit. Bow dps was only recorded against Kfc.

I assume there's some kind of formula to chart .87 and my average damage relative to crit spikes and the further sparking of the aps. I know Fleuri or Illyana or someone posted a good post about that forever ago, but I can't find it.

/inb4yourealizeImostlypostedthisjusttohavemoretopicsinthearcherforums

Also also, I *could* just make a sin alt.....

Different bosses in NV have difference defences. The first boss has the lowest p.def while KFC has and the bird boss has higher p.def.

Being a fist archer doesn't mean you're getting more Nirvana runs than a bow archer. Most random squads ignore any fist archer, even if they're R9 with +10 5.0.

Regenbogen - Lost City

get at least 3.33aps(demon) 4.0aps(sage) for permaspark

don't waste your coins go for deicides/nirvana claws you got the level for them

Hurrdurr - Lothranis

Regenbogen - Lost City wrote: »

don't waste your coins go for deicides/nirvana claws you got the level for them

Derp, spending money on Deicides over GV is a waste if you can reach the same APS with either.

_blood_rain - Sanctuary

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Ok, so, 2x is upon us.

I am a pure bow 485 dex sage archer (.87 r8+7 bow).

My friend has a pair of GVs (+5) I can buy at 11mil. I can wear them with an engraved Band from Heaven's Jail that I made.

Question is, can I put out more dps like that? Or am I better off investing money I would spend on GVs, and other -int gear (ornas, cape, deicides?) in my 2nd cast LG Vana pants/hat and being done with it? I mostly built this toon as a sage tw pwner.

I have Blood Vow and Awaken.

I did a sample vana trying to use them with 2 unrefined bands (I had not yet added str add to one of the rings). My highest damage with fists was 5.1k sparked crit. Lowest I charted was 9xx unsparked. My Jones was expired since its down right now.

Bow, lowest damage I charted was 2.1k unsparked. Highest was 13.4k sparked crit. Bow dps was only recorded against Kfc.

I assume there's some kind of formula to chart .87 and my average damage relative to crit spikes and the further sparking of the aps. I know Fleuri or Illyana or someone posted a good post about that forever ago, but I can't find it.

/inb4yourealizeImostlypostedthisjusttohavemoretopicsinthearcherforums

Also also, I *could* just make a sin alt.....

If you have and are willing to spend the cash, make your fish alt, but don't expect me not to laugh at it. Just because...well, it's a fish

If you do want to make your archer 5.0, choosing Deicides and GV is more a matter of heal vs. gear versatility, since their DPS is so close, and being sage, your spark limits you even further. If your overall aim is to be as cheap with it as you possibly could, go with deicides. You will spend less money on pieces solely intended to max your APS. A friend and I began to farm together a looong time ago to get our 5.0 pieces. He wanted the GV path and I picked deicides instead. we worked on a lot of his gear first, and yet I was the first to achieve 5.0, even having all the gear pieces ready at level 100. At that point he had enough gear pieces to achieve 5.0 with deicides, but since he wore GV's, he would still need 3 more expensive gear pieces to complete his set and he was demon like me.

haha, we also argued which weapon outdps'd the other all the time. Turns out I was wrong on that one but oh well...

snufalufaguss

Unless you kill the bosses in one spark, those GV at 5.0 will probably do more damage than a bow. If I remember correctly, I seen one of the smart forum math super genius guys say at around 9 seconds 5.0 aps will start out damaging a bow. I can't remember what weapons were being tested though.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

If you can stay pure dex and still use GV's, go for it. I wouldn't restat out strength, though. GVs do about the same damage as Deicides (assuming both are 5.0, and you're spark spamming) depending on how early and often they proc, until they are +6 or +7. Here is a thread about GV vs Deicides and post #5 has a good link too.

The main reason I'd use GV's is I think its a slight damage bump but also it would heal you from aoe damage since archers don't get bp. I'd still consider you a poor DD for Nirvana, though

Hurrdurr - Lothranis

_blood_rain - Sanctuary wrote: »

5.0 with deicides, but since he wore GV's, he would still need 3 more expensive gear pieces to complete his set and he was demon like me..

How could that be? The difference between GV and Deicides in just -0.05 interval wise. As you said 'expensive' pieces I'm assuming the pieces carry -0.05 such as tome and leggings. The maximum would be 2 pieces if you count 2 pieces of TT99 as 'expensive'. I have no idea how you need 3 additional pieces to go from Deicide 5.0 to GV 5.0.

_blood_rain - Sanctuary

Hurrdurr - Lothranis wrote: »

How could that be? The difference between GV and Deicides in just -0.05 interval wise. As you said 'expensive' pieces I'm assuming the pieces carry -0.05 such as tome and leggings. The maximum would be 2 pieces if you count 2 pieces of TT99 as 'expensive'. I have no idea how you need 3 additional pieces to go from Deicide 5.0 to GV 5.0.

well from the theoretical standpoint of someone who isn't 5.0 and is going with a 5.0 archer specifically because it is cheap, those pieces are expensive.

But I apologize, reading over that post it became clear that it is misleading. At the time, I had the wrists/boots, r8 top, Deicides, and Nirvana pants. He had GV, R8 top, and Boots/wrists. he had one less piece than me, and so needed 3 to complete his set.

Either way(and from an objective standpoint), Deicide builds are cheaper than comparable GV builds. You will spend less cash on the GV's than the deicides, but will generally make up for that paying for more pieces to complete 5.0 with GV.

Hurrdurr - Lothranis

_blood_rain - Sanctuary wrote: »

Either way(and from an objective standpoint), Deicide builds are cheaper than comparable GV builds. You will spend less cash on the GV's than the deicides, but will generally make up for that paying for more pieces to complete 5.0 with GV.

That is true up to a point. All endgame builds for an archer with the exception of a dex/crit build all uses the more expensive -int items such as NV/R9 leggings or LuaD/Pan Gu. So while it does take more money to reach 5.0 with GV bear in mind the money is not going down drain.

Edit - does 5.0 with GV even require legging/tome? I could swear you could obtain 5.0 with just the usual set up of R8 top, 2x TT99 HA orns, TT99 wrist and boots and TM69 cape.

Decus - Dreamweaver

Hurrdurr - Lothranis wrote: »

Edit - does 5.0 with GV even require legging/tome? I could swear you could obtain 5.0 with just the usual set up of R8 top, 2x TT99 HA orns, TT99 wrist and boots and TM69 cape.

EDIT: I was wrong cause apparently I cannot read. ~_~'

Hurrdurr - Lothranis

I was under the impression -0.4 was enough for 5.0 since I have 5.0 with R8 top, R9 wrist, R9 legging, pan gu, TMLG cape and GV which is also -0.4.

Decus - Dreamweaver

You're right, sorry. I somehow missed the 2xTT99 orns in your initial post.

Allynna_ - Dreamweaver

At around equal refines the Bow will win up until maybe 2.86-3.33. At that point, any boss fight that lasts long enough to get off multiple sparks probably favours the Fists.

The only real way to do it would be to calculate the unsparked and sparked DPS for both weapons (accounting APS, Crit, and average weapon damage) then figure out how often sparked with one vs the other. Then you can average the damage (over about 30 seconds to a minute) for spark cycles to figure out which is better.

Vindis - Dreamweaver

Allynna_ - Dreamweaver wrote: »

At around equal refines the Bow will win up until maybe 2.86-3.33. At that point, any boss fight that lasts long enough to get off multiple sparks probably favours the Fists.

The only real way to do it would be to calculate the unsparked and sparked DPS for both weapons (accounting APS, Crit, and average weapon damage) then figure out how often sparked with one vs the other. Then you can average the damage (over about 30 seconds to a minute) for spark cycles to figure out which is better.

That seems really complicated to calculate though.

I'm still torn on committing towards aps. My gear is moving less towards aps now anyways (if I ever get full LG). I could put all the money I would spend on 99 ornas, LG cape, Deicides towards a 1st cast NV bow and get me some Purge. That would be pretty usefulish I guess..

Knowing my playstyle, I don't really see when I would ever use claws aside from in Nirvy and maybe when solo tanking bosses, but I have 2-3 2.86+ sins I regularly squad and I don't really need to tank things often (aside from pulls with sage BoA).

Ikarium - Dreamweaver

If you go with anything, go with Gorenox.
You're unsure to begin with, so don't restat all that dex to be able to wear Deicides. And if you're not all that into it and just want them for when the situation arises.....why not go with the option that costs half as much?
Deicides have a proc thats completely useless in Nirvana (and even when not - u have Vow anyway) and give you a little vit, where the Gorenox will proc to make u hit harder, have str built in and will heal you (somewhat - its no BP, but its still nice)

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear

Do a check list.

The first thing to do is to cross out the items that you do not care about, or do not apply to you. For example, you may not be in a faction with Trials, so you can cross that item out.


APS Pros:

- You can get into Nirvana squads more easily.
- You can kill Nirvana bosses more quickly.
- You can kill Trial bosses more quickly.
- You can kill TT bosses more quickly.
- You can kill FF bosses more quickly.
- You want to do well in Events that have bosses (Tiger Event).
- You can gain chi more quickly on some random target (might not be a pro, since you can always equip lesser claws / fists).
- You want to be a cool APS archer.

APS Cons:

- Expensive.
- Swapping gear is annoying.
- Restricted gear (cannot go Pure R8, Pure Lunar, Pure Nirvana, etc.)
- The concept of fist / claw offends your sensibilities.
- You cannot be a cool Pure Bow archer.

maocchi

If you are thinking about going fists just to get into Nirvana squads--don't. Just make a fish.
APS Archers aren't considered viable DDs anymore, especially on Dreamweaver.

My Archer uses fists but only because I already had a pair of +10 SD's from my BM and they do decent enough damage to allow me to solo most parts of PvE without taking much damage, which was important because I was in a TW faction that I knew wouldn't help me through my culti.

If you TW, I'd suggest keeping your pure dex Archer and make a fish to do the Nirvana farming instead. But if you are strictly PvE only, losing few dex for enough str to use fists wouldn't hurt you as much.

Ikarium - Dreamweaver

Of course......why limit yourslef?
If you want an APS for nirvana farming, like people have said, rolling a Sin would be better for that. So rather than start over, get the APS gear on Archer and stash it with a Sin. Then you have your APS farmer (for use at times when 2x comes up, etc..) and can stat the archer the bare min strength for GV just to have the option/flexability on that character as well.

Vindis - Dreamweaver

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Do a check list.

The first thing to do is to cross out the items that you do not care about, or do not apply to you. For example, you may not be in a faction with Trials, so you can cross that item out.


APS Pros:

- You can kill Nirvana bosses more quickly.
- You want to do well in Events that have bosses (Tiger Event).
- You can gain chi more quickly on some random target (might not be a pro, since you can always equip lesser claws / fists).

This is about what I am looking at now. I took off getting into Vana squads because I have a 4.0 sin friend I squad often. Also, my new faction, Tempest, seems more open minded in helping nonaps builds acquire better gears to benefit TW. I built my toon to TW, to be pure bow, to have the largest range and I have been playing it for 3 years or so. I know the class like the back of my hand. Would GVs be worth getting if I am only 2.5 with them? I hate switching gear, and at the moment I wouldn't really need it anywhere but Vana.


APS Cons:

- Expensive.
- Swapping gear is annoying.
- Restricted gear (cannot go Pure R8, Pure Lunar, Pure Nirvana, etc.)
- The concept of fist / claw offends your sensibilities on an archer.
- You cannot be a cool Pure Bow archer.

I could get those GVs+5 for 11mil, Idk the cost of the TT99 ornas, but probably like 25mil at least, Cape would be abit, but maybe my barb could form TM runs. My archer has always been TW oriented. Swapping gear is definitely annoying though. Main reason I gave up on BM a long time ago xD. I could probably make it so I only had to swap Tome and Ring to wear Deicides, but at this point in time, GVs seem the better option.

On the topic of trials, does aps really out DD skills in there? With all the debuffs up I crit over 200k and I don't even have a really hax bow nor is that with Jones (r8+7). Minimum I'm going to be hitting is probably like 16k without any debuffs up, but with like 85 people on one boss, many of them being BMs, I don't think I will be short on debuffs. Even the r9's in my faction told me I should be using skills. Macros like QS, TS, LS, Frost, QS, Vicious, Serrated, LS work well. Every archer in my faction uses skills on trials bosses. If I was demon I probably wouldn't hesitate because of demon spark aps gain, but as a sage, I don't see the point really. I don't think my dps is significantly increased aside from against bosses that require more than 2 spark cycles (Some Vana squads don't even need that many).

Also, to whoever mentioned the Deicide buff, it has always been useless for me. I have had Sage STA for over a year. It is 20%, BV is 18%.

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear

Don't go for 2.5 a/s. Either go all the way to 5.0, or don't use them at all (except to gain chi). What will happen is that when you get 2.5, you'll wonder how 3.33 will feel. Then 4.0. Then 5.0. Make the decision now and stick with it.

You will never be satisfied doing things in half-measure.

Vindis - Dreamweaver

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Don't go for 2.5 a/s. Either go all the way to 5.0, or don't use them at all (except to gain chi). What will happen is that when you get 2.5, you'll wonder how 3.33 will feel. Then 4.0. Then 5.0. Make the decision now and stick with it.

You will never be satisfied doing things in half-measure.

I would probably be satisifed with the decision when I think that using claws at X.XX aps is better than using my bow. Its a torn kinda thing. I could invest in aps gear, or I could +10 my bow. Or I could get a first cast purge bow.

Perhaps I will reexplore my aps options after I get my Vana pants. (I am still a ways off, but I will get there, hopefully before summer.)

Hurrdurr - Lothranis

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Every archer in my faction uses skills on trials bosses. If I was demon I probably wouldn't hesitate because of demon spark aps gain, but as a sage, I don't see the point really. I don't think my dps is significantly increased aside from against bosses that require more than 2 spark cycles (Some Vana squads don't even need that many).

Trial buff gives x4 damage. You don't get trial buff outside FB. Normally your auto attack should out DD skill spam.

_blood_rain - Sanctuary

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I would probably be satisifed with the decision when I think that using claws at X.XX aps is better than using my bow. Its a torn kinda thing. I could invest in aps gear, or I could +10 my bow. Or I could get a first cast purge bow.

Perhaps I will reexplore my aps options after I get my Vana pants. (I am still a ways off, but I will get there, hopefully before summer.)

Well the thing about investing in 5.0 is it gives back. If you go 5.0 then actually make use of it by farming, you will be able to earn all the money back and more. So you could invest in that and still +10 your bow.

Quilue - Sanctuary

The thing about APS gear is that it incidentally also increases bow attack speed...

You don't really need to talk about APS gear as if spending on it is detracting from PvP performance...-int tome, R9/second cast pants, are all good for bow as well. The only thing you really need is Deicide and TT99 orns for permaspark, which are not very expensive. Alternatively, you can just get R8 plate and skip the TT99 orns altogether, but some people like to use their R9 chest.

Hurrdurr - Lothranis

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

You don't really need to talk about APS gear as if spending on it is detracting from PvP performance...

It does in the sense you may need to stat more strength points than needed to wield a bow. However with a +7 weapon and 30 attack levels losing 10 dex or so is hardly ground breaking.

Vindis - Dreamweaver

See, farming is awesome and all, but I don't have ample amounts of time in game anymore. I do on my days off, but I work 40 hrs a week. It would take me a while probably to get all of the aps gears required for 5.0.

Currently I have:
R8 chest
LG Vana Pants waiting on cannies to recast
TT99 Wrists/Boots

and thats it.

I could get the other ones, but I would have to change gear around alot. And switching to aps ornas/cape actually lowers my defense/hp (Glorious Robe: Torment +6 and Map 4 m def belt +5; Sky Pearl +4)

Cape probably wouldn't be too bad and with GVs and 2nd cast legs I could have 3.0 base (or is it 3.33?)

Idk, I will still keep my options open.

My in game time is mostly spent doing BH, Base Quest, Trials and FCing on my barb. I also added Morai quests to my daily regiment. Sometimes all of this doesn't even get done lol.

My bow aps is .87 atm. Its part of why I leaned towards LG Vana instead of going r8 recast (though now I am in a faction that actually does trials and could theoretically still go for r8 recast, but I already have the LG Vana pants, so might as well stick with a plan lol).