Demon or Sage + Metal Mage Mode

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver

SO all those new clerics out there that got the chance to buy this new skill. Are you demon/sage, and do you know if the sage Metal Mastery stacks with MMM? Also how good IS the damage increase. If someone wanted to make extensive use of this skill, which would you recommend? Just curious.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

I really don't think it makes a huge difference one way or the other. Personally, I don't even like Violet Dance that much. A cleric that can't heal itself and has to rely on genie/pots loses several advantages, especially when its hp is lowered further and it loses some shields.

I'd have to say demon benefits more, though. Demon has always had the better control skills (silent and chromatic seal) and damage for pvp and a skill that multiplies that damage would favor this. The argument is that sage's longer chromatic allows you to sleep your opponent, debuff, purify, switch modes, and then attack. If you can't heal yourself or purify, I think demon control skills would win out as a defensive tactic.

Hmm, here's a thought. Can you buff in mage mode? I'm logged off right now so I can't see but Sage's Celestial Guardian Seal might allow you to still heal yourself while metal maged.

SerenityCNB - Dreamweaver

Sage, and from what I've read, the damage increase is very marginal. I would assume that it does stack with metal mastery, but I can't log into game to verify this one way or another currently. I can only tell you what I've read here on the forums so far.

Some people have reported doing 1k more damage. Others have reported actually doing less damage. I don't know what that's about, but I hope that the information was at least somewhat useful. I can't see a real use for it to be honest. I know that it didn't really answer the question you had...but not being able to log in, that's the best that I can do. Lol.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

SerenityCNB - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Sage, and from what I've read, the damage increase is very marginal. I would assume that it does stack with metal mastery, but I can't log into game to verify this one way or another currently. I can only tell you what I've read here on the forums so far.

Some people have reported doing 1k more damage. Others have reported actually doing less damage. I don't know what that's about, but I hope that the information was at least somewhat useful. I can't see a real use for it to be honest. I know that it didn't really answer the question you had...but not being able to log in, that's the best that I can do. Lol.

For both myself and a friend its about a 10% dmg bump.

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

I really don't think it makes a huge difference one way or the other. Personally, I don't even like Violet Dance that much. A cleric that can't heal itself and has to rely on genie/pots loses several advantages, especially when its hp is lowered further and it loses some shields.

I'd have to say demon benefits more, though. Demon has always had the better control skills (silent and chromatic seal) and damage for pvp and a skill that multiplies that damage would favor this. The argument is that sage's longer chromatic allows you to sleep your opponent, debuff, purify, switch modes, and then attack. If you can't heal yourself or purify, I think demon control skills would win out as a defensive tactic.

Hmm, here's a thought. Can you buff in mage mode? I'm logged off right now so I can't see but Sage's Celestial Guardian Seal might allow you to still heal yourself while metal maged.

You can't do party buffs, but you can do single buffs. So sage's should be able to heal themselves with guardian seal, as the other addition procs still worked when I went into MMM. I don't really PVP and haven't had a chance to actually try it out in PVE. Just got the skill today so no demon clerics to play test our damage with.

edit: Also haven't been able to find a guardian seal for sale.

Ahira - Lost City

Its not a huge difference but i still i find myself sticking in MMM when questing/killing mobs. I also use in solo pvp as the extra damage and new skills are useful, but not group pvp.

(demon cleric btw)

Jeremied - Sanctuary

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Hmm, here's a thought. Can you buff in mage mode? I'm logged off right now so I can't see but Sage's Celestial Guardian Seal might allow you to still heal yourself while metal maged.

o_o I hadn't even thought of that, could be an awesome work around for not being able to heal in MMM for sages. Mini IH even. So telling this to my Culti partner.

b:surrender Still going demon though, since I think I'll be using purify and SoR more than MMM. Currently I just spam it in town when my friends say they're lagging to lag them more for the rofls or to make decapitated archer heads follow people around. XD

Anyone played with Ultraviolet yet? Ecatomb doesn't mention any HP reduction like with Violet.

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver

Jeremied - Sanctuary wrote: »

o_o I hadn't even thought of that, could be an awesome work around for not being able to heal in MMM for sages. Mini IH even. So telling this to my Culti partner.

b:surrender Still going demon though, since I think I'll be using purify and SoR more than MMM. Currently I just spam it in town when my friends say they're lagging to lag them more for the rofls or to make decapitated archer heads follow people around. XD

Anyone played with Ultraviolet yet? Ecatomb doesn't mention any HP reduction like with Violet.

One thing I'd like to mention before you make your choice based on SoR is that sage vanguard seal has a very similar additional p.def buff, and it's easily able to be slipped into (and maintaned) during a normal IH stream, of which sage IH heals more. (Demon IH heals MP instead of more HP) Also, since it is a buff, you can use it on melee classes who haven't aggro-ed everything to slow down the rate at which they are taking damage. You would also be able to use sage guardian seal to give them a quick heal in this regard. Whereas SoR is a heal and thus you would wind up with aggro. I would definitely look at more skills before making a culti choice to make sure that your picking the right one for you, as SoR's additional buff is found in a similar manner in both cultis. Although the one in sage vanguard seal is smaller, it also can't aggro anything and can be used in a normal ih stream, whereas as Demon SoR protects more, but also comes packed inside a heal whose channeling is on the longer side.

Jeremied - Sanctuary

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver wrote: »

One thing I'd like to mention before you make your choice based on SoR is that sage vanguard seal has a very similar additional p.def buff, and it's easily able to be slipped into (and maintaned) during a normal IH stream, of which sage IH heals more. (Demon IH heals MP instead of more HP) Also, since it is a buff, you can use it on melee classes who haven't aggro-ed everything to slow down the rate at which they are taking damage. You would also be able to use sage guardian seal to give them a quick heal in this regard. Whereas SoR is a heal and thus you would wind up with aggro. I would definitely look at more skills before making a culti choice to make sure that your picking the right one for you, as SoR's additional buff is found in a similar manner in both cultis. Although the one in sage vanguard seal is smaller, it also can't aggro anything and can be used in a normal ih stream, whereas as Demon SoR protects more, but also comes packed inside a heal whose channeling is on the longer side.

b:chuckle Hun, I made my choice before I even made this cleric, by carefully picking the skills I use most and checking the differences between sage and demon, and demon won for my personal play style. My culti buddy in my faction (another 86 cleric) is going sage, and we enjoy having the possibilities of having the best of both choices available when someone wants them. I appreciate the concern though. And again, since I don't plan on really using MMM very much, not having sage guardian's seal doesn't bother me much.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver wrote: »

One thing I'd like to mention before you make your choice based on SoR is that sage vanguard seal has a very similar additional p.def buff, and it's easily able to be slipped into (and maintaned) during a normal IH stream, of which sage IH heals more. (Demon IH heals MP instead of more HP) Also, since it is a buff, you can use it on melee classes who haven't aggro-ed everything to slow down the rate at which they are taking damage. You would also be able to use sage guardian seal to give them a quick heal in this regard. Whereas SoR is a heal and thus you would wind up with aggro. I would definitely look at more skills before making a culti choice to make sure that your picking the right one for you, as SoR's additional buff is found in a similar manner in both cultis. Although the one in sage vanguard seal is smaller, it also can't aggro anything and can be used in a normal ih stream, whereas as Demon SoR protects more, but also comes packed inside a heal whose channeling is on the longer side.

I went demon and my barb's wife went sage. Honestly, the culti is too balanced to really say one is better than the other,because as you pointed out alot of the skills are mirrored in a different skill (example, sage Vanguard or demon IH both giving a phys bonus. Cyclone gives +damage for one culti and -channeling for the other, Plume gives +dmg and shorter channeling for the other,...)

There are a few things I miss out on from being sage, and thats the long chromatic sleep, the stronger IH, and your two examples above of heals and defense boosts that can be given during a pull.

Although, I asked in barb forums before I picked my culti and 11/11 barbs preferred a demon cleric and I personally prefer them too so that's why I picked demon. I tend to heal and debuff and attack and control while clericing and so I think demon offers better support, however its also the better pvp option in most peoples opinions. I have considered swapping cultis but for the things I'd gain as sage I'd miss as a demon.

I point these things out because other than sage Celestial Guardian Seal, which is a super rare skill, and Vanguard for pdef buff there isn't much of a difference where MMM would benefit one class more than the other. Only reason I really said demon was the channeling on the spark would benefit the DD aspect of MMM more than the dmg reduction sages get.

Kanmi - Sanctuary

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Although, I asked in barb forums before I picked my culti and 11/11 barbs preferred a demon cleric and I personally prefer them too so that's why I picked demon.

Yes asked melee class who generally have 1.5k MP why they love demon cleric so much <.< Demon IH = I can be cheap with mp pots, ty to the demon IH . It had nothing to do with the heal .

Baby_pho - Heavens Tear

i picked demon cos of other demon skills it had nothing to do with the IH.

onto topic. if you do regular questing with the violet dance its pretty nice. the cooldown is horid it should be 1 sec so we can switch on and off easier. other than that its a pretty skill. ok ish...

Kanmi - Sanctuary

Well veno got 6 sec too to switch form . The only thing i find annoying is the long ani mation and really not discret one... well yes it looks cool but i was hoping i could sneak around giving Deaden nerve buff without anyone noticing me . Guess it will be hard and probably almost impossible b:surrender

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Kanmi - Sanctuary wrote: »

Yes asked melee class who generally have 1.5k MP why they love demon cleric so much <.< Demon IH = I can be cheap with mp pots, ty to the demon IH . It had nothing to do with the heal .

Its really not that, its that we have 1500 mp and some of our skills take 600+ mp so you can run in, use two skills and be out. Even spamming pots my mp can't always keep up because of pot cooldowns. We've all been in situations where we almost got ourselves killed or a squadmate killed because we ran out of mp and couldn't do what we needed to and as a tank, that's not an option. So if the cleric is watching my hp and my mp its one less thing I have to worry about so I can focus on doing my job better.

And for the record, my barb eats through pots about 10 times quicker than cleric so its not "being cheap with mp pots". I can spam heals all day and almost never need to pot but I need to pot just to buff myself on my barb.

Kanmi - Sanctuary

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Its really not that, its that we have 1500 mp and some of our skills take 600+ mp so you can run in, use two skills and be out.

Barb got no skills that requise that much MP . Your run out of MP when you buff Strenght of Titan and Beast King ( both cost 495 MP for lv11 so 990 MP for to give both) . Most of skills got average 100 MP cost for aggro skills and some aoe ( which i doubt barb use to tan a boss )

Even spamming pots my mp can't always keep up because of pot cooldowns. We've all been in situations where we almost got ourselves killed or a squadmate killed because we ran out of mp and couldn't do what we needed to and as a tank, that's not an option. So if the cleric is watching my hp and my mp its one less thing I have to worry about so I can focus on doing my job better.

But it makes me wonder how do you manage to use your skills when BB is up and it doesn't give MP recovery.

And for the record, my barb eats through pots about 10 times quicker than cleric so its not "being cheap with mp pots". I can spam heals all day and almost never need to pot but I need to pot just to buff myself on my barb.

My point was... for obvious reasons barb or BM would tell you Demon IH > Sage IH cause like you said Barb/BM dont even need to look at their MP anymore .

This is Off topic well, i find it funny that you said 11/11 barb said "Choose Demon Cleric"

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Kanmi - Sanctuary wrote: »

Barb got no skills that requise that much MP . Your run out of MP when you buff Strenght of Titan and Beast King ( both cost 495 MP for lv11 so 990 MP for to give both) . Most of skills got average 100 MP cost for aggro skills and some aoe ( which i doubt barb use to tan a boss )



But it makes me wonder how do you manage to use your skills when BB is up and it doesn't give MP recovery.




My point was... for obvious reasons barb or BM would tell you Demon IH > Sage IH cause like you said Barb/BM dont even need to look at their MP anymore .

This is Off topic well, i find it funny that you said 11/11 barb said "Choose Demon Cleric"

I guess when I was looking at my buff costs I was adding in true form for the switches. So 500, not 600. But Arma, obviously can eat 600+. You have to pot just to use combo's like Bestial Rage+Sunder+trueform+Arma+Untamed Wrath+true form, which is my normal delta opener for around 1600 mana. And if bb is up, or the cleric is not demon sometimes you'll just end up standing there for a few seconds waiting for mana and hoping your aggro is already set enough. If I see a chain of skills coming I normally pot as I use my first skill, even though I have full mp then, and can pot again towards the end of the chain.

When I asked I first made a post in cleric forums and only had 3 respond (all demon). So I made a post in the barb forums and had about 20 response, the bulk being "doesn't matter as long as they know what they're doing." The people who had actual opinions said demon 7 times, and then I'm counting my own opinion. Some did say sage for TW catacleric, but I specifically stated I was PvE except might 1v1 for fun.

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver

Jeremied - Sanctuary wrote: »

b:chuckle Hun, I made my choice before I even made this cleric, by carefully picking the skills I use most and checking the differences between sage and demon, and demon won for my personal play style. My culti buddy in my faction (another 86 cleric) is going sage, and we enjoy having the possibilities of having the best of both choices available when someone wants them. I appreciate the concern though. And again, since I don't plan on really using MMM very much, not having sage guardian's seal doesn't bother me much.

Coolio, didn't mean to turn this thread into a sage ih vs demon ih thread. b:chuckle I think they are both pretty good and it's pretty sweet you got another cleric to team up with. Although with this new passive skill that'll be less of a concern in the future. b:cool

I got to try out MMM mode a bit the other day against PvE mobs. Not really impressed with the damage boost but I don't really have a large soulforce either. I went to SP to poke some high level person but there was only one rank 8 obviously afk wizard in there, and I didn't want to harass a lowbie. Even if the pk in there is more like an event than a permanent feature ((which thank goodness for the lowbies :P), didn't want to be a jerk about it. :P